One of the Dumbest Marketing Campaigns Ever with Christopher Lochhead (2 of 2)

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:17.120 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. We 2 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:22.559 have unfinished business. So welcome to Friday's show. If you tuned in yesterday, 3 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:29.039 you know we shared part one of a two part conversation from back in 4 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:34.880 the day with Christopher lockhead and the genesis. The origin of why I'm bringing 5 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:41.240 this back to the surface and wanting us to take a another glance at it 6 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:46.119 is because category design has been in a lot of conversations recently, something that 7 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:50.119 I was talking to a couple people about on linkedin and have been in some 8 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:54.920 zoom calls where this topic of category design came up. Thought what do we 9 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:57.960 have in the archive around this topic and was going to just share it on 10 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.799 today's show, but found the two parter and I thought, man, we 11 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:07.920 should just share both parts because it's insightful and timely. Yesterday Chris broke down 12 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:12.799 what legends do differently right. So they design legendary products, they design legendary 13 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:21.079 companies and ultimately legendary categories. talked about how categories got set up in the 14 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:26.280 first place. WHO DOES IT benefit? Clearly it benefits the category designer, 15 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:33.840 and how you are best positioned if you create it right. Two thirds of 16 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:38.879 the market can be ultimately is controlled by the king or the Queen of that 17 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:44.680 category and by the research that they did for Harvard Business Review, and you 18 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:47.519 can hear more on that in part one. I encourage you, if you 19 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:51.840 didn't listen, to look to yesterday's episode. Go back and do that before 20 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:59.519 you jump into today's second part of the conversation. So on today's episode, 21 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.799 this one's called one of the dumbest marketing campaigns ever, but it rounds out 22 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:09.479 the conversation another about thirty minutes here with Chris giving us some more insights on 23 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:15.199 category design. So let's jump in one of the dumbest marketing campaigns ever with 24 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:21.080 Christopher lockhead. Here we go. So you talking about defining this problem and 25 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:24.759 marketing that versus the product itself. Does that process mean that you have to 26 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:29.840 have a huge advertising budget, a huge team to support that, a big 27 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:34.080 kind of Pr Push, or is it you know, equally or can it 28 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:37.520 be effective if you kind of are taking it from a more of a grassroots 29 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.879 approach or more of our own organic route? You can absolutely take the more 30 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:47.039 organic route and Victor Victor Hugo famously said all the armies of the world cannot 31 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:52.520 stop an idea whose time has come, and so in a lot of ways, 32 00:02:52.560 --> 00:03:00.599 category design is a process and approach to making it your time. And 33 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:04.080 so as you go to execute from a marketing perspective, what you want to 34 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:08.800 ask yourself is, what's the best way to have my point of view about 35 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:15.280 a problem and therefore a solution catch fire? And look, would having a 36 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:21.199 two hundred and fifty million dollar marketing budget help? Sure, but you know, 37 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:23.199 if you look at it, most startups don't have anywhere near that. 38 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:29.080 And so the thing you got to ask yourself is, what are the ways 39 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:35.000 in which I can move the thinking in the space to my agenda? And 40 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:38.000 Begin to ask yourself that. And you know, we can get into tactics 41 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:39.719 if you like, John. There's a lot of ways to go after this 42 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:45.120 thing, but fundamentally you're doing something different. What most people are doing is 43 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:49.280 they're competing. They're competing on price, they're competing on speeds and feeds. 44 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.400 My carbondingulators, and I'm going to use this word on purpose, better than 45 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:59.199 your carbondingulator in anybody who's having a better conversation has fallen into a product, 46 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:03.280 feature and price war, and that's always a race to the bottom. The 47 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:09.879 other thing about this word better is when I say my products better than your 48 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:15.719 product, what's left in everybody's mind is your product better. Is a comparison 49 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:17.959 game. And so you know, right now, I don't know if you've 50 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:24.920 seen this ad, the idiots at Pepsi are spending God unknown millions of dollars 51 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:29.920 on a new campaign with the guy from the office. And which guy? 52 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.720 I don't want a slot of TV. which which, God, the main 53 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:35.600 guy? Steve Carrell, seve kraft? Yeah, and the first set of 54 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:40.519 ads have this are, I think in a diner, if I'm remembering right, 55 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:44.000 and the waiter, waitress, comes up to these folks and says, 56 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.199 you know, what can I get you to drink? And they say, 57 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.959 you know, we'd like a coke, and the waiter says will Pepsi do 58 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:54.480 or is Pepsi all right, or something like this, and then this actor 59 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.560 gets up and says is Pepsi All Right? Well, Pepsi's Awesome and it's 60 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:02.279 this and it's that and and I'm sitting there going you dumb efforts. You 61 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:09.199 guys are so stupid, because the minute he says well, Pepsi's who do 62 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.639 you mean? Pepsi's all right, they're comparing themself to coke. And so 63 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.839 whenever we compare ourselves to somebody else, what's left in the mind of the 64 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:21.240 customer, the consumer, the buyer, is the thing that we are comparing 65 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:27.240 ourselves to, as opposed to our own unique space. And so all they're 66 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:32.279 doing with this multi zillion dollar campaign is telling the entire world that coke is 67 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:38.800 a category king and we're not. It's the dumbest marketing campaign maybe in history, 68 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:44.240 and that's the trap that everybody falls into. This this comparison game, 69 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:47.920 and all the comparison game does is validate that the company, end or product 70 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:53.600 you're comparing yourself to is the category King and you're not. So it really 71 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:58.279 works against you because you're you're having the conversation on someone else's terms instead of 72 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:02.600 your own. Yes, and you're also the game is wired against you because 73 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:08.240 the rules have been created by somebody else. The minute go Joe Industry says, 74 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:13.399 well, it's not about how do I wash my hands, it's about 75 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.439 how do I get my hands clean in the absence of water. They have 76 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:23.519 redesigned the way we think about it. Yeah, it's it's funny. You 77 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.639 mentioned that that coke and Pepsie, example, because a few decades ago they 78 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:31.160 did that famous kind of taste test campaign where they talked about how Pepsi tastes 79 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.199 better than coke, which is exactly kind of going against what you talked about 80 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:40.160 earlier. It's a, says, subjective, but they're trying to positions. 81 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:44.040 They would they were trying to position Pepsi as kind of an objective better a 82 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:46.879 product than coke, and then, you know, thirty years later they're still 83 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.000 finding the same battle. Yeah, the other thing that the the category does, 84 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:55.879 of course, is they look at who number one is and they assume 85 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:59.720 that number one is the best product. That's the assumption that you and I 86 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.759 make. The other thing that's interesting if you get into the human psychology of 87 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:08.800 it, John, is human beings are pack animals. We don't want to 88 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:14.319 be an outlier because if there's ten of us together in the woods and two 89 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.879 of us are away over here and eight of us are over there, the 90 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:20.560 two that are way over here are the ones more likely to get eaten by 91 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:29.000 the bear. And so every user of zoom makes potential users of zoom more 92 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.759 comfortable that zoom is what I should do and so human beings are heard or 93 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:40.839 pack animals, and so we are comforted by buying the product or service that 94 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.399 is the category King. Yeah, it's like I think in the book you 95 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:49.560 mentioned. It's kind of a self reinforcing cycle where the category king is seen 96 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:53.720 as, like you said, the best product and then people buy that product 97 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.680 or that service because it's perceived as the best and it just continues to cycle 98 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.480 itself or drive itself from there. And I know one of the other points 99 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.639 you made is when companies are faced with a potentially new category that's coming to 100 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.120 market, there's a real need for them to take the initiative and define that 101 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:15.839 because if they don't, someone else is going to do that and we'll be 102 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.720 caught in kind of a secondary position. If you tell me a little bit 103 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:20.519 more about that. Yeah, I'll give you one that has been going on 104 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.439 the tech industry for a long time. A lot of people say email sucks, 105 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.199 I hate email. When somebody going to reimagine email, and this has 106 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:33.799 been tried many, many times, and the reason that no one's been able 107 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:39.159 to displace email, even though many of us agree that the email paradigm is 108 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.360 not maybe the greatest paradigm, is because everyone that has tried to take out 109 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:48.720 email has been using email as the point of reference. Right. So if 110 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.519 I say to you, Hey, John, don't think about pink dinosaurs, 111 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.639 whatever you do, no, no, pink dinosaurs, don't think about pink 112 00:08:56.679 --> 00:08:58.200 dinosaurs, you can think about anything you want to think about, but not 113 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:01.080 a pink dinosaur. or You can create any animal you want, any color 114 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:05.320 you want, but just no pink dinosaurs. What's in your mind? Yeah, 115 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:09.279 of course pink dinosaurs. Right. And so the reality is, if 116 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:15.919 the problem is how do we have an asynchronous communication that shows up as a 117 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:20.919 time based feed in an inbox? Well, email wins and everybody who has 118 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.240 tried to take out email, for the most part, has lived inside of 119 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.759 the framing of the problem that is email. And until you reframe the problem, 120 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.600 no one's going to take out email. that. Does that make any 121 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.759 sense? Huhn? Yeah, it's like you're you're talking about, you're offering 122 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.360 in terms of the kind of the wrong problem. You're talking about why it's 123 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.279 better than something else. It kind of goes back to that cooke versus pepsie 124 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.840 example. It's like you're setting the stage of you know, this is why 125 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.960 what we're doing is better than email. Out All of a sudden someone has 126 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.240 to maybe give up emails to use this new thing, which poses a huge 127 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:01.720 kind of mental barrier that they have to get through and instead of taking them 128 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.519 to maybe a new way of communicating and reframing it different style, maybe synchronous, 129 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:11.120 you know, were non time based perhaps, but like that, that 130 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:15.799 shift is it hasn't happened. They're like they're talking about something that is is 131 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:20.080 working against them. They don't really have a way to talk about what they're 132 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.720 doing in in a way that maybe complements email or goes on top of email 133 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.480 or kind of benefits you in some other way. Yeah, I'll give you 134 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.600 a simple example that I think certainly I can relate to. Maybe most people 135 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:33.799 can this. Well, there's a small chain of restaurants in the San Francisco 136 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:39.000 Bay area, Sushi restaurants. Now, you think about Sushi restaurant as a 137 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:43.000 category, it's a wellknown category. If I say to you, Hey, 138 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.600 John, we're going out tonight for Sushi, you have a picture in your 139 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.799 mind of what that's probably going to look like. Right. Yeah, this 140 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:56.720 company said we're not going to solve a problem called how do you make great 141 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:01.000 Sushi, which is the problem that most people look at when they open a 142 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.720 Sushi restaurant. Maybe they and maybe they think how we got to make great 143 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.200 Sushi and make money doing maybe they look at it that way. Anyway, 144 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:09.399 however they look at it, is how they look at it and they do 145 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.519 what most Sushi restaurant entrepreneurs do, which is they compete on how awesome are 146 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:18.159 Sushi is, the location of our restaurant, how awesome our staff is and 147 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:22.320 the value that we deliver ie, you know, price for quality is good, 148 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:28.919 and they they accept those kinds of dimensions, if you will, of 149 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:33.080 competition as the only way to compete. And what they what they hope for, 150 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:37.080 because their artists, because they're their chefs, is that when they open 151 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.000 their restaurant, people are going to say, wow, that's the best Sushi 152 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:45.120 I ever tasted. That's how most entrepreneurs think, and that's how tech entrepreneurs 153 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.720 think as well. All, that's the greatest algorithm ever. Right, Oh 154 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:52.879 wow, I've never seen a carbon dingulator so fast and so elegant. Right, 155 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:56.480 that's what they're all trying to build. So this small chain of Sushi 156 00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:01.159 restaurants reimagine the problem and here's how they reimage edgend it. They said, 157 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.799 we love Sushi and we love eating on the go, but Sushi on the 158 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.080 go stucks. I don't know if you're try to eat Sushi walking down the 159 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:13.279 street or eat Sushi in your car while you're drying, like it's a disaster, 160 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:16.039 right, because the sauce everywhere and they're you know, Rice gets everywhere 161 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:22.000 and it doesn't. Sushi is not a good portable food, right. Yeah, 162 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.480 closest thing I that is those those premade Sushi containers of the grocery store. 163 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:31.759 I'm trying to eat something semi healthy, but yes, it's like mediocre 164 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.840 at best. So these guys create a new category and they call up the 165 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:41.120 SUSHIRITO. They take the concept of a Burrito and they apply it to Sushi 166 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.039 and therefore they solve and the problem called how I eat Sushi on the go, 167 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.120 and they're killing it. And, like I said, they're six or 168 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:54.360 seven of them, they're growing very rapidly and they are not competing on the 169 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.080 traditional dimensions. They're competing on a new dimension, which is, what's the 170 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.799 best way to eat Sushi on the go, to a Sushi Rito, and 171 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:07.320 so they have differentiated themselves, and I use that word very much on purpose, 172 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.919 by creating a new category of Sushi called the Sushi Rito, and there 173 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.320 are now knockoffs of the Sushi Rito who are trying to engage in a battle 174 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.039 with them, saying, well, our Sushi Rito tastes better than their Sushirito. 175 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:24.039 But, just like the idiots at Pepsi, when you do that, 176 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:28.039 when you rip off the Sushirito, all you're doing is telling the world that 177 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:33.440 the original Sushi Rito is better than my knockoff poser Sushi reto. Right. 178 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:37.679 And and yet this is the mistake that entrepreneurs make over and over and over 179 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:41.919 again. They are essentially doing a copycat strategy. And my question is, 180 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:46.240 why fit in when you can stand out? Why not do something unique? 181 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:50.960 If you look at every company, every entrepreneur, every marketer, every brand, 182 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:56.360 every artist, every scientist, every political leader that you respected, Myer, 183 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.759 love and joy, they all share some characteristics, and one of them 184 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:09.720 is they broke or took new ground. They are viewed as being the first. 185 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.720 Whether they were, they weren't as irrelevant. But the reason we know 186 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:18.080 who Picasso is and if you look at his wikipedia page in the first or 187 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.639 second sentence. It says he's the founder, he's the Godfather, he's the 188 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:26.080 creator of a new type of art called cubism. Well, we know his 189 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.399 name. We don't know the eighty seven most successful cubist artist in the world. 190 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.120 We never heard of her. Right. We know who Bob Marley is. 191 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.759 We don't know who the thirty two most popular reggae band in the world 192 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.879 is, because Bob Marley is the category designer of a new category, a 193 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:50.240 new type of music called reggae. And so my question for entrepreneurs, my 194 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.480 question for marketers, is who would you rather be? Picasso or Marley, 195 00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:00.200 or the forty seven company? Would you rather be Sushi reto or the if 196 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:07.840 Sushi Red Open? Imagine it, a spreadsheet filled with rows and rows of 197 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.919 your sales enablement assets. You've devoted two years to organizing this masterpiece, only 198 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.279 for it to stop making sense. This was Chad tribuccos reality. As the 199 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.919 head of sales enablement at Glent, a linkedin company, he's responsible for instilling 200 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.120 confidence in his sales reps and arming them with the information they need to do 201 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:30.399 their jobs. However, when his glory is spreadsheet became too complex, he 202 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.919 realized he needed a new system. That's when Chad turned to guru. With 203 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:39.279 Guru, the knowledge you need to do your job finds you. Between Guru's 204 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:43.639 Web interface, slack integration, mobile APP and browser extension. Teams can easily 205 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:50.519 search for verified knowledge without leaving their workflow. No more siload or staled information. 206 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.159 Guru acts as your single source of truth. For Chad, this meant 207 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.440 glent sales reps were left feeling more confident doing their jobs. See why leading 208 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:04.039 companies like glint, shopify, spotify, slack and more are using guru for 209 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:11.960 their knowledge management needs. Visit BB growth dot get gurucom to start your thirty 210 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:19.080 day free trial and discover how knowledge management can empower your revenue teams. Right, 211 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.320 right. So I've heard a couple of comments on kind of whether a 212 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.759 category exists in kind of its nest, hit stages, and so what I 213 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.360 mean by that is for some folks say, well, it's not really a 214 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:34.519 category if you're the only company participating in that space. In order for it 215 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:41.039 to be a category, there has to be multiple companies participating. Now at 216 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:45.080 the same time there there still has to be a first because one point that 217 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.240 category should not exist, and then one company emerged two, three, four, 218 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.480 five and so on. And so how do you balance that dynamic of 219 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:59.679 looking at a space wanting to be the first but also recognizing that if others 220 00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:03.480 don't participate in that space, then maybe you haven't really designed a category, 221 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.880 maybe you've just designed a unique position. And is that a downside? Is 222 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.319 that something negative you should look out for? Or maybe I'm looking at things 223 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.200 the wrong way? Yeah, it's a great question. So I just just 224 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:22.200 had this conversation with an entrepreneur and he was going to name his product and 225 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:26.480 his category the same thing, and he was going to trade mark and I 226 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:30.279 said, well, if you trade market, it won't become a category. 227 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:36.559 Right. So I phone is a brand. Smartphone is a category. Right, 228 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.400 right, right, and so that's ultimately what you want. You want 229 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:45.000 to have a category name that you do not trade mark and you absolutely want 230 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.960 competition to rip off. And here's the truth. Look, let me just 231 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:51.519 say something. It may not make me a lot of friends, but I'll 232 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:56.599 say it anyway. Most people are freaking stupid. Most people are not creative, 233 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:00.759 most people are not innovative, most people don't do any real thinking, 234 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:06.519 that is to say, thinking about thinking is the most powerful thinking you can 235 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:11.039 do, and most people don't do thinking about thinking. My friend and mentor 236 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:18.480 BIX BIX and said most people and most companies are living inside of somebody else's 237 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.319 thinking. And ultimately, category design is a way of thinking about new ways 238 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:29.960 of having a market category work in your favor right. And so, given 239 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.759 all of that, if you design a new category, you have evangelized that 240 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:40.920 category powerfully with a really creative, innovative point of view that frames a problem 241 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.079 and teaches the world to move from the way it is to the way you 242 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.039 want it to be. Don't drive to blockbuster, go to a website called 243 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.400 Netflix and just have the movies magically show up in your mailbox. And of 244 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:53.920 course, today we stream. That's an idea, that's a point of view 245 00:18:55.000 --> 00:19:00.160 right. And so here's the truth. If you have a powerful category design 246 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.960 that that and a point of view that delivers against that category design, then 247 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:10.680 your idiot competitors, when they see you having success, will rip you off. 248 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:15.079 They will come and you want to welcome them. So you don't want 249 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.480 to look at competition as a negative. It's something you really want to foster 250 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.799 to help go back to that point you made earlier about as a category leader. 251 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:27.279 You don't want to market your product, you want to market the category 252 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:32.640 itself, and having competition and really helps you do that. Yes, and 253 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:37.000 so the only way I want to compete is by having others compete with me. 254 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:41.039 I don't want to compete with anybody else. So when somebody says, 255 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:45.880 well, who's your competition, my answer is always well, we don't have 256 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.680 any real direct competition. We do something different and that changes the conversation. 257 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:53.039 If I say to you, Hey, John, let's go to dinner tonight, 258 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:57.000 and maybe you're visiting me here in Santa Cruz and I'm telling you about 259 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:00.160 some of my favorite restaurants in town, I say, and so I'm thinking 260 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:07.279 about maybe Italian or Sushi. which do you prefer? That forces a choice 261 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:12.480 in a way that you know I'm thinking about Italian or pizza. Doesn't force 262 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:17.839 a choice. You follow me? And so legendary entrepreneurs, the way they 263 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:22.319 want to compete is by having others compete with them. But we don't compete 264 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.519 with others. Sarah Blakeley, the founder of spanks in the creator of the 265 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:32.720 shape, where category refuse to have her, and these are her words, 266 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:37.799 innovation, her invention be thought of as a girdle. It's not a girdle, 267 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.599 it's shape where. It's a new invention. Those are her words, 268 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.559 right, and the reality is it would have been very easy to position that 269 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:51.799 stuff as a girdle to dotto. And nobody wants a girdle, but hey, 270 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:53.279 shape where? Wouldn't you like to be a little bit more shapely? 271 00:20:53.839 --> 00:21:00.559 And she's the most wealthy, selfmade female billionaire in American history and it's because 272 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:06.599 she distinguished herself, because she did something different, and now there are shapewear 273 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:10.039 competitors. Same thing with Lulu Lemon. I don't know about where you live, 274 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.200 John, but sometimes I think in Santa Cruz County there's a law that 275 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.160 says twenty five percent of the women must be wearing lululemon pants at all time. 276 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:22.839 Yep, and they are the creators of a new category of clothing called 277 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:29.599 at leisure right. And now when women go to buy, quote unquote, 278 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:34.000 Yoga Pants or athletes or clothes, they are the gold standard because they are, 279 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:38.119 by definition, the category Queen. And so if you're not wearing Lulu, 280 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:44.640 then you're not wearing the original stuff. They created a whole New Paradigm 281 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:49.640 in women's clothing. Now. Had there been stretchy, spandexy, you know, 282 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:53.599 close fitting pants for women before? Sure, there had, course, 283 00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:02.240 but they went out and evangelize this ath leisure lifestyle and tied their category to 284 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:06.039 an emerging I don't if you want to call it support or activity or whatever 285 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:08.640 you want to call it, called Yoga, and by doing those things, 286 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:14.599 Bam, they created a whole new category of clothing where one did not exist. 287 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.240 And most people today, just like when, if I'm sneezy, I 288 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:21.200 m'd say to you, Hey, John, please pass me a clean x, 289 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:25.000 which, of course, is a brand name and the category is called 290 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.799 a tissue. Right, most people say, Oh, you know, she's 291 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:33.359 wearing lululemon pants. She May or may not be wearing that brand. Lululemon 292 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:38.839 has become the clean x of Ath Leisure and Yoga Pants. So to Tesla, 293 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:45.160 a few years ago released the patents on its battery design and I remember 294 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.279 reading the commentary at the time and it was I think, supporting is the 295 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:52.720 same idea of you know, Tesla didn't just want it to be the only 296 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:57.200 maker of electric cars. It really one of the electric car category to grow 297 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:02.480 and blossom minute new by releasing those patents. It would help foster that. 298 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:06.480 So is that kind of what you're talking about in terms of fostering competition and 299 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:11.759 not maybe trade marking or keeping everything in house, but allowing that ecosystem to 300 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.519 thrive? Yes, absolutely, and I would say that Elon Musk is one 301 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:23.359 of the most exciting, natural intuitive category designers in our world today and he 302 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:30.720 understood this that if I'm the only company evangelizing the electric car, then this 303 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:36.039 category might not go. I need to get the entire industry to tip. 304 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:41.119 I need to move the industry from the way it is fossil fuels to the 305 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:45.880 way I want it to be, electricity and on. I need the help 306 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:52.440 of competition to move a giant category in this newly design direction that I just 307 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:57.039 created. That's exactly what he was doing and it's pure genius and it's worked. 308 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:00.119 Look at the number of new electric cars now. You could argue, 309 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.640 well, was that going to happen anyway? I don't know, but here's 310 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:07.839 what we do know. He evangelized the car, he prosecuted the Magic Triangle 311 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.599 that it's to say, Got Product Company in category right and, to your 312 00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:18.200 point, he's purposely expanding the category by sharing some of the secrets with his 313 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.920 competitors so that they can collaborate with him on making the category tip. So, 314 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:27.640 Chris, if I'm listening to this podcast and I'm an entrepreneur and exact 315 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:33.920 marketer thinking about category design, how do I know if it's something my company 316 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:38.720 should pursue? It's not something that necessarily every company can. We should pursue. 317 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.640 Right, we don't need tenzero categories of products. But you know, 318 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.400 how does someone make that distinction of whether they go down this road or choose 319 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.599 a different path? Well, and look, you can argue I'm overly biased. 320 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:56.359 I think if you're not doing category design, you're an F and moron, 321 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:02.200 because what you're declaring by saying we're not going to do that is, 322 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:07.440 by definition, we're going to let somebody else decide what the problem is, 323 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:12.880 what the solution is and teach people about how to value that problem and solution. 324 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.319 And as a result of that, we are going to submit to having 325 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:25.680 the company that designs this category that we're in design it and take two thirds 326 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:29.920 of the economics and we will be one of the fifteen, twenty, forty 327 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.720 five whatever competitors fighting for a quarter of the economics. So if you want 328 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:37.519 to just play for a quarter of the economics. Well, somebody else sets 329 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:42.559 the rules in your industry, in your market, in your category. I 330 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:47.559 think if you consciously make a frontal lobe decision to do that, you're an 331 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:49.839 F and moron. That's what I think. All right, love it, 332 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.880 love the I love the candor. So I want to ask you one last 333 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.680 question. It's not about category design, or maybe it is, but you 334 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.400 know I'm here in Lexington and most of the world's Bourbon is made within a 335 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.400 couple hours of where I live and I know that you enjoy it kind of 336 00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:10.519 seeing what's what's best in that space. So top three BOURBONS, three to 337 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.119 one go. You know I'm going to have a real lousy answer. I 338 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:17.640 kind of like them all. I mean I you know I drink a lot 339 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:22.200 of scotch. I Love Bourbon. I think probably my go to daily Bourbon. 340 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:25.920 It is just a good old fashioned bullet bourbon. I get in trouble 341 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.720 with a lot of Scotch Guru guys because I like Jack Daniels, I like 342 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.640 a Jack and coke, I like gentleman's Jack, I like, I don't 343 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.240 know if you've had the Frank Sinatra Jack that's a really fun one, and 344 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.440 so I'm generally somebody who mixes it up. I when I go into a 345 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.079 bar, you know, if they have a good bourbon selection, I'll ask 346 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:48.880 the Oh, here's this, this great category design. Remember when they used 347 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:53.559 to be bartenders? Yeah, you know what they're called today where they knows 348 00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:59.000 Ologists, mix ologists, right, that's what they are their mixologist. When 349 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:02.079 I was a kid, if you bought a secondhand car, you are buying 350 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.440 a used car. Today we don't buy youth cars, we buy free owned 351 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:12.519 cars. That's all category design. That those are people changing thinking about a 352 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:18.519 particular market category. Anyways, I digress. Like I said, like Kevin 353 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:21.599 said, category design is a new Lens on business and once you have the 354 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:23.839 lens you see categories everywhere. So, to get back to your question, 355 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:27.039 John, I will often go in and I will say to the mix ologist, 356 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.119 you know, you guys look like you have an awesome, awesome selection 357 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.960 of whiskies and bourbons. What do you have this new? What do you 358 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:36.920 have that's exciting? What do you have that's interesting? What should I try? 359 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:42.319 And I generally don't have mixed drinks. Mixed drink for me, as 360 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.559 a Jack and Coke I get. If I'm going to drink a bourbon, 361 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.000 I like it neat. I like my bourbon with Bourbon, just like I 362 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:52.640 like my coffee. I like coffee with coffee, and I think putting other 363 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.440 almost set a different word that begins with s. But I'll say stuff in 364 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.839 my bourbon or in my coffee is somewhat blasphemous. And Look, I know, 365 00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:04.599 having spent time in Scotland and and so forth, there are some experts 366 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:07.880 that say you should really put a little water in there, a little lice 367 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.119 in there, quote unquote, open it up. I think all that's BS. 368 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.039 I like Bourbon in my bourbon because stuff. Yeah, well, it's 369 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.079 kind of an interesting space to watch because it is a very, very crowded. 370 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:21.680 If you go to, you know, liquor store around here, you'll 371 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:25.680 see literally hundreds of bourbons on the shelf, and so every once in a 372 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:30.359 while you'll see someone who's trying to kind of reframe that conversation or about a 373 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:34.000 different bourbon or a different blend while still kind of remaining too true to that 374 00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:37.640 kind of a heritage of Bourbon. So it's really interesting to kind of see 375 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.839 what idea stick in which are just kind of flashes in the pant and I 376 00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:44.880 love the innovation, the new category of Whiskey that I love. It's at 377 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.000 least new to me. Maybe it's been going on for a while and I 378 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:49.559 didn't notice it. I'm not I don't follow it super closely, but there 379 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:56.960 is a whiskey that's made here in the Santa Cruz area called Wayward Whiskey, 380 00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:02.599 and I joined their club and I, you know, get a selection of 381 00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:04.799 stuff from them every quarter and you got to go to their place and pick 382 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.119 it up, which is fun. It's just the other side of town for 383 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:11.640 me and I was in there a couple weeks ago John and picking up my 384 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:18.799 quarterly drop ship of Yummy and while I was in there I noticed behind the 385 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.720 bar, because they have a tasting area, they had this very sort of 386 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:29.640 dark ruby, almost blood ready looking whiskey and I'm sort of trying to read 387 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:34.240 the label. Anyway, long story longer. It's whiskey that has been aged 388 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:40.599 in pork barrels. Oh really, and I love port and I love whiskey 389 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:42.880 and I'll tell you, man, is this ever good? I'm going to 390 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:48.319 buy a case of it. It is absolutely outstanding. And so right now 391 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:52.720 my favorite go to is wayward whiskey aged in port barrels nice. So does 392 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.359 that kind as a new category of whiskey or is that just differentiation? It's 393 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.039 new to me. I don't know if it if it's if it's been a 394 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.680 longstanding category. I had never heard of it, so I'm guessing it's new, 395 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.480 but I can't tell you for sure. But it certainly was new to 396 00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:10.000 me. I hadn't heard of anyone else doing it. And if you start 397 00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:15.240 paying attention, you know you'll start to see new categories all over the place. 398 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:17.559 I just saw one. Let me see if I can grab it for 399 00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:23.160 you quickly. A new category of Jerky. I was in my favorite local, 400 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:27.440 local store, local market. Yeah, here it is Auhi Tuna Jerky 401 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:34.200 Strips, wildcot cut, whole cut island Kariaki tuna jerk strips from a company 402 00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:41.640 called wildly responsible. So it's Ahi Tuna jerky strips. So there you getting. 403 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.960 I'm getting kind of hungry and thercy just talking to you on this interviewer. 404 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.359 I think about Jerky in Bourbon, Coke Pepsi earlier. How lots of 405 00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:51.759 good stuff. Chris, thanks so much for all the advice you shared today. 406 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:56.079 I could probably take your brain for another few hours. Be Tob growth 407 00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:59.920 is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet 408 00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:03.720 fish, we produce podcast for some of the most innovative brands in the world 409 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:07.759 and we help them turn those podcasts into Microvideos linkedin content, blog posts and 410 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.359 more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more 411 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:22.960 information, visit Sweet Fish Mediacom