Transcript
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Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Hello
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and welcome into be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block,
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and today we're thrilled to be joined
by Vanessa dry fist. Vanessa, welcome
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into the show. I happy to
be here. We're glad to have you,
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Vanessa. So you are the VP
of product and marketing at you need
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o. That spans two major parts
of the company, right, both product
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and marketing. So give me a
little context as to to what you do,
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Vanessa. Sure. So I had
both sides of the organization, Product
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Management and marketing. Product management don't
also includes product design, and on the
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marketing side we have a digital marketing
and a product marketing team. Fantastic.
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So you posted on Linkedin recently around
user and buyer personas and you shared some
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of your findings after having done really
some significant work over the last what year
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or so? Is that right?
Yeah, what was your your team focused
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on over the past like twelve months
or so? So there were two major
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initiatives that were focused on in the
team. The first one is to prioritize
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the integrations that will build. We're
a code integration platform, and so we
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needed to understand who we were going
to integrate and what was their market like.
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It's a huge undertaking when you think
of the Plethora of SAS out there.
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It's quite fragmented and cluttered at the
same time. Yep. And then
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the second big initiative was to redesign
our product experience to make it more in
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line with new customer expectations, make
it as intuitive as possible for non developers.
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And it's a hard problem to address
since our product is quite technical.
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Hm. And so in order to
do that correctly, the first step for
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both those major initiatives was really to
define, or redefine, should I say,
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our personas. Yep, okay,
so tell me where you started,
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like, give me context. What
were your personas twelve months ago? Where
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was that starting place? So we
used to have, or we still have
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in a way, a segment that
was quite technical, typically developers, and
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in order to grow we needed to
address a bigger market, and so it
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entailed having tech savvy customers but that
are not technical and their business first,
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right, and so this meant again
pivot on the audience we were going to
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target, and so we rethought are
our personas. Thankfully, our buyer and
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user personas are the same, because
we're a clad yeah, so this helps
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in the work to be undertaken and
we are also quite lucky because we have
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a lot of data at hand.
So most of the work was about centralizing
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the data, analyzing it, synthesizing
insights, crafting the personas and then distributing
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its internally so that we could all
align in different teams, across different teams
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and across different initiatives around those two
personas. So we'll dive pretty deep into
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the personas here in a second,
but I'd love to hear because you guys
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being product led. That was actually
a shift as well. Correct. Yeah,
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in a way, maybe we were
product lad, but not not assuming
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it. Okay, and now we've
decided that we wanted to align all functions
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that way, and this meant again
to rethink the jobs to be done,
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because the first thing is to understand
who we're talking to right who? Who
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is our ideal audience and what pain
points we want to solve, and then
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once that's well defined, it's quite
easy to transition to, you know,
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jobs to be done on the product
side, to valid to derive value propositions,
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to train customer facing teams, etc. But it has to start from
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a place of knowledge. On whose
our audience. Talking on persona specifically.
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What's the time frame that you guys, we're looking at to try to lock
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in the the persona us? So
it took US six weeks. So in
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a way it's long, but it's
also short. It was six weeks dedicated
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to the project. So it's a
lot of it's a lot of work from
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multiple people. We've involved a lot
of different teams along the way. But
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then again, this became the foundation
for everything else, so the time was
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really worth it. Like I said, a lot of the research was done
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on the data gathering side, so
we we could make that extra push to
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make it into six weeks to feed
everything else. I think it's actually quite
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nice to time box the process so
that it doesn't drag on forever and it
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creates momentum inside the organization. I've
seen these processes go on forever and I
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think this time around we did it
quite well. It feels like a process
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that could go on forever, right, because you could get really nitpicky and
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you could just try to continually like
hone it and over time you'll see the
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ICP evolve and you want to go
back to it and and maybe shift little
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things. But I like that you
guys had that time block and one after
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it and we'll talk about maybe some
of the data that you had before,
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because it sounds like obviously you had
to pull that in before the six weeks
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started. Tell me who you're consulting
in this time? What voices are are
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shaping the ICP? So essentially it's
anybody who touches the stomer right, so
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sales ce US, product managers who
are doing user interviews, the marketers who
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are doing case study interviews. We
also involved data because they have first party
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data from our product and there's a
lot of quantitative information that we could gather
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from there. And everyone has their
own facets of the customer, but it's
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really the sum that makes it complete, and so we involved everyone in different
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shapes and forms. I'd say sometimes
it was in workshops, sometimes it was
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an interviews. We also did surveys
internally, but all in all I'd say
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sixty percent of the company was somehow
involved in the process. Okay, and
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you land on two personas. So
I wonder how you drilled down on on
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those two specifically. Like no,
more, no less. Why did you
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feel like to was the right number? We didn't decide on to from the
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beginning, but we realized along the
way that first and made sense and secondly,
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we wanted to ruthlessly prioritize the people
we we want it to attract and
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we wanted to characterize through the the
persona. We also think that too is
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a number where people can understand deeply
what they mean. When you have too
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many you have a very shallow understanding
of them and then they were not meaningful
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anymore and you can't really do anything
from them. So I think in the
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and again this to begin with,
this is a nice starting place and I
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do realize that actually in the company
multiple teams are using them. For example,
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a new hire was mentioning that they
were trained on the personas during their
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onboarding process, and so that one
foundation does does feed in multiple places in
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the company. So I think too, is a good number. I would
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agree. I think, man,
once you get anywhere beyond three it's so
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hard because there's some of those personas
that you're probably just not interacting with often
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enough for it to even be on
your radar. So I love that you
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guys kept it simple there. I'll
read a portion here of what you wrote
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on Linkedin. You said it's important
to be as methodical as possible while doing
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the analysis, synthesis and definition.
That's what guarantees that everyone in the company,
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including future hires, which you just
mentioned right, will trust what has
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been defined. So expand on that
a bit for me. What's the trust
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that has been built because of this
process? So from past lives I've heard,
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oh, that's the marketing persona,
that's the product product persona, that's
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the ICP, and essentially everyone uses
different characteristics to align their initiatives to personas.
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What this means is that it creates
misalignments in the company and it's also
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highly unproductive because you do the process
multiple times to define all of that right,
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the research, the definition, the
distribution. However, if your methodical,
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you define the process and you share
the process ahead of time and people
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understand what you're doing and who you're
involving. Like I said, you know
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multiple teams along the way, then
first off, everyone feels that they contributed
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to the outcome, but they also
feel like the output reflects reality and it's
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not biased by the individuals who you
you know did it in a bubble,
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and so that's what I mean by
trust. It means that you do think
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it's reflective of reality and you do
want to use it because of that.
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Hey everyone, emily brady with sweet
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percent discount. All right, let's
get back to the show. And then
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with new higher specifically, you gave
a good example of a where that ICP
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was taught in the onboarding process,
but I'm assuming also some could come in
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with fresh eyes and they could go
well, this might not be like maybe
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the ICP is off or wrong or
they have questions, and this because you've
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taken so much time on it to
really lock it in. You feel like
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that it helps with new hires too. Yeah, it does. So first
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off, we've documented the whole process
and the insights at every step of the
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way. So if they want to
unpack, you know the end result.
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It's extremely easy to backtrack from there
and I think it's actually useful when you're
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on boarding to do that. If
you do, if you have the time
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to do that, it's quite interesting
to do so. And if they want
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to challenge it, I mean that's
fine as well, and then it leads
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to a productive conversation in the end. Like you said, you know,
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they're not locked. The personas have
to evolve. Our customers set evolves.
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So will iterate along the way and
what we want is for that feedback loop
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to be ongoing with everyone in the
organization Nice. So you have analysis,
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synthesis, definition. We brought up
data earlier which falls in that analysis kind
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of phase. Walk me through some
of what that looked like leading up to
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the six weeks. So essentially,
what we did is we took an extract
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of our serum and looked at the
customers that converted on higher tier plans and
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we looked at different data points,
meaning their demographic, their fremographic, their
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technographic, product engagement, product type
of usage, and this led to a
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very detailed actually view of who our
customers are and surprisingly enough, it was
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very clustered, so it was not
too complicated in a way to synthesize the
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insights. But what was missing was
the qualitative information, the background, the
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stories, because this is, you
know, people working in tech in that
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company between five fifty two, five
hundred employees, and you know it's dry.
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You can't relate to that that well. And so that's why also having
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then interviews with customer facing teams or
with the again, the people who do
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user interviews provide a richness right to
the data that you have and that then
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you can refine the persona so that
they're they're real and you can also connect
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with them in an empathize with them, and that's a big part of that
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synthesis piece right is to just take
the data and now we're going to make
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it more personal. What's your favorite
part in this process, when synthesis is
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starting to actually happen in your to
really see this kind of honed in?
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Talk me through you know what you're
feeling there. I have user interviews just
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generally speaking, I feel like I
can relate to customers. They have real
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pain, they have real needs.
It's not, you know, theoretical stuff
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you just writes on your slides,
and so I find that it's the moment
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I like best. I also feel
like I imagine a lot of solutions during
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those movements and I really encourage everyone
to speak to customers as much as possible,
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not always directly, but at least
listen to conversation from sales or again,
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from user interviews, because you have
a wealth of information when you're sitting
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there that you don't get if you're
just you know, if you read the
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transcript. Yeah, I wonder with
your experience in product and marketing and now
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going through this process, like how
do you feel your jobs on product and
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marketing side helped inform this process?
Like what did you learn in it that
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makes you better in product and marketing? I think my main takeaway is that
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when you go through that process you
connect also with people internally and being part
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of leadership, you sometimes are removed
from certain teams, are from Sind certain
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individual contributors, and in a way
we got to bring storm together and to
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think of solutions together and that was
really cool. Yep, so, okay,
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many listeners are going to have personas, but those personas may not be
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in front of their teams all the
time or as often as maybe they should
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be. Maybe they're not at full
effect right and so they don't inform conversations
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properly. You've done some pretty creative
things to keep this in front of your
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team. What has that looked like? So on the creative thing side of
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things, you're probably alluding to the
workshop that I talked about. We're doing
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an off site. We decided to
form teams and to pick one persona and
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illustrate it. And so those teams
looked back on the detailed personas and then
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they illustrated. So they had big
canvas, they had paint markers, stiggers,
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glitter. It was fun, it
was Super Quirky. That's people were
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making also analogies with other people in
the organization. So then you start to
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reconnect, you know, with those
personas and now the arts is in the
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office. So we see it every
day. I love that. Are there
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any other ways that you now think
about the personas or have them in front
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of people or maybe revisit it in
a conversation to just kind of keep it
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in front? Yeah, so the
first thing is when we did this big
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exercise, part of the distribution plan
was to do training. So we've done
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that foundational training with customer facing teams, with marketing teams, with product management,
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product design, and that exists now
for all new hires as well.
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But we also try to have frequent
small touch points or have it frequently in
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people's faces. For example, we
have it in our brief template what personas
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we're going to address through the the
brief, and that way, every time
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a product manager or product marketer rights
the brief, they know immediately what is
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audience that they want to target and
the persona that it relates to. I
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like that. So then, on
the evolution of these moving forward. Now
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for you, Vanessa, what do
you how often are you revisiting this?
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Is there someone or a team of
people that go back and look and adjust?
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Tell me a little bit about how
you see this evolving from here.
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It's quite organic, it'd say.
What we realized is that there was an
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evolution on one out of the two, and so in December and January we
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actually did further research on that second
profile and we updated it last week.
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Oh Nice. So I don't like
there's no cadence, but we do have
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a cadence of feedback loops with their
customer facing teams, and I think they're
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like the first sounding board to provide
feedback whether we should iterate on anything,
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and I guess we'll try to stay
tuched close to them to be able to
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address that. Let me ask you, if you don't mind sharing, like
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was it a small shift last week
or what? What kind of are you
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revisiting and seeing in the data?
Yeah, you realize that we were we
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were too broad with the the persona, and so it made it sort of
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I'm specific, and we have more
data points now on, you know,
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the tool stack that the persona uses, the rolls or the sub rolls,
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you know, if you look at
bigger functions, and so we've addressed this,
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we've refined their pain points. So
it wasn't a hundred and eighty degree
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shift from where we were, but
we've made twenty percent improvement, let's just
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say, on the persona. I
like that and I like that it's fresh
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kind of in your mind, something
that you guys are doing right now,
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because I think that's sort of the
challenge of this episode right go take a
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look and maybe look at some of
the data and continue to evolve. When
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you think of this whole process.
was there any challenges or maybe tips for
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people that will go through what you
guys just have over the last year or
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so, things to, I don't
know, avoid or watch out for in
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this whole process? Yeah, so
I think I've touched on that. But
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try to include more doable teams,
but not everyone either, because it can
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become quite disruptive. So who's the
best representative in each team to participates in
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the process and these super clear on
what are going to be the steps,
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how they were going to be involved, how much time it's going to take,
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and that way people are happy to
participate and the understand what's the the
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outcome. I think that that's a
big one. And the second one is,
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like I said, be organized and
be thorough, because people will ask
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how you came up with the outputs. So you need to be able to
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back up what you claim, just
like anything. So if you do it
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along the way, it's not that
much work and then you know you don't
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have to go back to the output
and then just backtrack from there. Otherwise
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it's it's a lot of work to
do. Yeah, it's good. I
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think the main thing that I'm taking
away from our conversation is that just the
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basic idea of like analysis, synthesis, definition, the quality of each of
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those parts of the process really seem
to inform what you guys did and is
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made it very successful. I love
the evolution process. That something you're still
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defining and and seeing progress in and
getting more honed in on one of those
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ICP's. That's that's crucial. And
then I love the idea of just a
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workshop. I love how corky that
is and glitter and just trying to make
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it something fun and accessible. Having
it posted up in the office right it's
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a way that people see it,
can reference back to it, and that's
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a fun jumping off point. So, Vanessa, for those that want to
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stay connected to you and what you
guys are doing, give us a brief
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rundown on the company, the work
you do, and then maybe we're to
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connect with you online. Sure.
So, you need as a no code
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integration platform. We connect apps so
that you can build work flows in just
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a few minutes. You can found
us on you need o Dot Ioh and
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my linkedin is Vanessa Dreyfuss Dreif you
S S, it's actually quite complicated,
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you will get it wrong. That's
fine. Rewind this episode fifteen seconds so
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you can hear spell it again.
But we're we really enjoy having you on,
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Vanessa, thanks so much for being
on this episode of VB growth.
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I'm super happy to have participated.
Thank you for hosting me. Absolutely so.
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We're always having these types of conversations
here on the show. If you've
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yet to subscribe, do that now
on whatever platform you're listening to this on,
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and, hey, you can connect
with me as well. On linkedin,
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just search Benji Block, and I'm
always talking marketing, business or life
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and would love to chat with you
over there. Keep doing work that matters
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and will be a back real soon
with another episode. We're always excited to
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have conversations with leaders on the front
lines of marketing. If there's a marketing
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director or a chief marketing officer that
you think we need to have on the
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show, reach out email me,
Beng dot block at Sweet Fish Mediacom.
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I look forward to hearing from you.