#Sales 16: The Challenge of Recruiting & Retaining Sales Talent w/ Fazilat Nassiri

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:10.390 A paycheck doesn't just cut it anymore. It is important, especially in sales 2 00:00:10.429 --> 00:00:14.189 roles like people care about that, of course, but you you also want 3 00:00:14.189 --> 00:00:17.789 to make sure that they feel people want to feel like they belong somewhere. 4 00:00:17.829 --> 00:00:24.460 Hello, everybody, welcome again to the HASHTAG sales series on BTB growth. 5 00:00:24.539 --> 00:00:28.980 I am your shiny boy cohost, Patrick downs and stay. I am massively 6 00:00:29.019 --> 00:00:34.140 excited to be joined by FAZ, the director of recruiting and Guild Education. 7 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:39.049 Today we're going to be talking about the wonderful world of employee retention. I've 8 00:00:39.130 --> 00:00:43.929 titled Today's episode the Job popcast. Please add some colors your intro if you 9 00:00:44.009 --> 00:00:49.810 may. Absolutely hi, happy to join you today. I was born Intohran, 10 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:53.479 you're on, and have moved around a little bit during my life. 11 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:57.240 I've lived in Canada, the UK and most recently now in the bay area 12 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:02.439 in the US. I am really passionate about the work that I do. 13 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:07.750 I've worked in a number of different areas in consulting, television, nonprofits, 14 00:01:08.469 --> 00:01:14.349 but will as startups and everything, and most recently I do recruiting in education 15 00:01:14.629 --> 00:01:18.980 technologies, in the education technology space, and really what I do is I 16 00:01:19.180 --> 00:01:23.900 help companies build talent systems that scale through rapid growth. So I'm passionate about 17 00:01:25.019 --> 00:01:30.819 skills based hiring and growing diverse teams that are really geared towards impact and innovation, 18 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:34.450 and I love thinking about how you will help align diverse teams to achieve 19 00:01:34.530 --> 00:01:38.010 really big, audacious goals. I love it. I wish I had a 20 00:01:38.129 --> 00:01:42.849 good way to explain who I am and such a sustainct way that you just 21 00:01:42.010 --> 00:01:46.969 did. I was beautiful. Thank you so much. And now we're going 22 00:01:46.969 --> 00:01:49.480 to get into the uncomfortable part of the interview where I turn the spotlight over 23 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.000 to you and ask three personal questions, and whatever you want to answer, 24 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.879 you can answer, but we'll get through it together. I'll be here. 25 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.390 So the first one, we're going to start soft here. What bothers you 26 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:07.310 the most about yourself? Oh, that's a really great question. I think 27 00:02:07.549 --> 00:02:13.030 I can be impatient at times. So I have a posted note above my 28 00:02:13.550 --> 00:02:16.099 desk that says breathe and be patient. So I think that's probably one of 29 00:02:16.180 --> 00:02:22.219 the things that that I'm working on. Where did they, the post of 30 00:02:22.259 --> 00:02:23.460 note, come from? What happened before you put that there? At the 31 00:02:23.539 --> 00:02:30.210 cause? Now you know there's like you have tension filled moments, and in 32 00:02:30.370 --> 00:02:34.770 those moments, you know you're in a conversation with a colleague or you're working 33 00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:38.050 on a project, and I noticed that. I immediately I'm like filled with 34 00:02:39.169 --> 00:02:42.889 you know, let's do this, I want to get dive right in, 35 00:02:43.050 --> 00:02:46.360 I want to like figure this shit out, and sometimes it kind of backfires 36 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:50.800 where people feel like well, don't know what we're supposed to do here now. 37 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:53.520 So I remind myself that I need to take a couple of moments to 38 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:59.750 breathe, be patient and and try to re engage from from that point. 39 00:03:00.430 --> 00:03:04.909 Do you meditate at all? I do, actually, I've started probably like 40 00:03:05.030 --> 00:03:09.550 a year or two ago and you know, during covid it has been it 41 00:03:09.669 --> 00:03:15.340 has become increasingly necessary. So I don't have a very robust practice. I 42 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:17.939 probably meditate about ten minutes a day in the mornings and I'm trying to stick 43 00:03:17.979 --> 00:03:22.419 with that. Yeah, I went from ten minutes a week to ten minutes 44 00:03:22.460 --> 00:03:27.930 a day pretty quickly after the lockdown situation. It was necessary. I have 45 00:03:27.969 --> 00:03:31.449 to keep track and kind of bribe myself to to meditate, but it's worked 46 00:03:31.490 --> 00:03:35.610 in its working so all you meditate a hear's piece of candy. There you 47 00:03:35.689 --> 00:03:39.889 go. Something like that. All right. Next question. What is the 48 00:03:39.930 --> 00:03:45.240 last time that you cried like really hard, not just like a little tiny 49 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:49.240 sprinkle out of the eye, but like a full on ugly saw? Who? 50 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:52.639 I don't know it was a full on ugly saw, but I did 51 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:59.310 a hundred percent blubber. Two nights ago I was watching the Democratic National Convention 52 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:04.389 and watched Obama and then come a hi us and just followed my eyes autos 53 00:04:04.469 --> 00:04:10.060 just like this is beautiful. So, yeah, I can feel the emotion 54 00:04:10.379 --> 00:04:12.819 coming off of you right now. Just when you said, come on, 55 00:04:12.939 --> 00:04:15.259 I Harris his name, you keep started like tearing up a little bit. 56 00:04:15.379 --> 00:04:20.180 I love it. Yeah, I'm feeling it too. This might actually be 57 00:04:20.259 --> 00:04:25.370 a crossover question. But my last one is what is something that happened recently 58 00:04:25.410 --> 00:04:29.250 and then made you feel really optimistic about humanity? That is a really good 59 00:04:29.290 --> 00:04:33.649 question. I think you know when when I hear moments where people kind of 60 00:04:33.769 --> 00:04:39.759 selflessly put other people ahead of themselves and think about not just what is good 61 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:42.720 for me, but what is good for the people around me, what is 62 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:46.519 good for the broader society and community that lives around me, that makes me 63 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:49.560 really happy and and you know, like watching the news and what's going on 64 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:54.470 around the world. It's so easy to feel like we're in in a world 65 00:04:54.709 --> 00:04:59.750 that everyone's just out for themselves and so, you know, there's you know, 66 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.029 are sure the DNC does this on purpose? You can, they kind 67 00:05:02.029 --> 00:05:04.269 of push those buttons a little bit, but are a couple of moments of 68 00:05:04.350 --> 00:05:09.300 that during the the broadcast and also kind of in the work that I do. 69 00:05:09.500 --> 00:05:13.019 You know, it's really great. I feel very fortunate to be in 70 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:16.420 a position where I get to connect people together and connect people to jobs and 71 00:05:16.899 --> 00:05:20.970 jobs that they really enjoy and kind of get excited about. So you know, 72 00:05:21.089 --> 00:05:24.649 when you get the chance to do those kinds of things and when you 73 00:05:24.689 --> 00:05:27.290 see other people doing those kinds of things, those are the moments they give 74 00:05:27.329 --> 00:05:30.569 me help. Such a good answer. You should be a politician. No, 75 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:34.449 please, now. Just kidding. That sounds like hell, but I 76 00:05:34.529 --> 00:05:40.199 think you'd be good at still shifting gears completely. Let's go into the main 77 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:44.240 topic. So we're going to be talking about retention. I'm coming from a 78 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:47.560 sales background. I'm the sales and element trainer a company called Pantadog, and 79 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:51.949 something that I've been getting concerned about recently is the ten year of salespeople. 80 00:05:53.029 --> 00:05:55.709 I mean I'm sure you've seen the stat of the ten year of a VPS 81 00:05:55.750 --> 00:05:59.790 sales about eighteen months and the average ten year of an AE is about twenty 82 00:05:59.870 --> 00:06:02.189 five months to and half years. And then we have a ramp period that's 83 00:06:02.230 --> 00:06:05.819 about six months and you don't get to the peak of your performance until about 84 00:06:05.819 --> 00:06:09.540 a year. So that a third of your time and then, if you're 85 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:13.699 a VP of bet half is spent on ramping up and then you're just gone. 86 00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:17.649 I can't get over how crazy that is. Have you noticed this trend 87 00:06:17.730 --> 00:06:23.250 in other fields or is this kind of unique to sales? It's really interesting. 88 00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:28.850 I think there's there's definitely aspect of it for more unique to sales because 89 00:06:28.970 --> 00:06:33.959 of the way sales compensations are structured. People move themselves out of rolls really 90 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:38.720 quickly if they don't feel like they're going to hit targets. So it kind 91 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.879 of forces that. It's a forcing function to some extent. But you see 92 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:46.389 in other areas as well. It's not just unique to sales. I think 93 00:06:46.790 --> 00:06:50.629 in the bay area and within the tech world we're starting to see a shift 94 00:06:50.670 --> 00:06:56.389 towards people thinking less and less about each step in their career, as I'm 95 00:06:56.389 --> 00:06:58.670 going to be here forever. I'm going to be here till I retire. 96 00:06:58.750 --> 00:07:00.819 That's like not even a thing anymore, and now instead it's like two, 97 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:05.060 twenty, three or sins seem like the sweet spot for a lot of people, 98 00:07:05.579 --> 00:07:09.339 and that's not even within sales. So I think it's definitely a trend 99 00:07:09.339 --> 00:07:12.060 that we're seeing more and more and with what's going on in the GIG economy, 100 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:15.889 it will likely continue. But knowing that, you know, knowing that 101 00:07:16.170 --> 00:07:19.569 rank up time and knowing how long it takes for people to really be effective 102 00:07:19.610 --> 00:07:24.970 and add value, I think it's an everyone's best interest, including companies and 103 00:07:25.129 --> 00:07:30.519 employees, to try to expand that a little bit and and see how, 104 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:34.360 you know, figure out ways where you keep people engaged and interested in a 105 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:39.680 job and in a company for longer. So I think that we're going to 106 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.480 have a really interesting conversation thinking about how we how we actually do that. 107 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:47.470 How do you retain and keep people engaged for longer stretches of time? Yeah, 108 00:07:47.470 --> 00:07:49.629 that was going to be my next question. Actually just still around in 109 00:07:49.670 --> 00:07:54.949 my mouth. Well, what are some things that you've seen successfully keep people 110 00:07:55.069 --> 00:08:00.459 engaged in their job? That's a that's a really big question and I think 111 00:08:00.579 --> 00:08:05.100 most of what I'm going to say is not going to be like revelations and 112 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:09.180 you it's probably stuff that we've all heard before, but it's really thinking about 113 00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:13.449 how you actually implement that within a company. So I think so much of 114 00:08:13.610 --> 00:08:18.490 that starts within the recruiting process. So it's before someone even starts, making 115 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:24.209 sure that the interview stages and the process in which you select the candidates is 116 00:08:24.290 --> 00:08:26.720 not just about is this person right for us, but are we right for 117 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.519 them? Is this the right the right company, the right setting for them 118 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:35.679 to add value? And how you do that is making sure that the candidate 119 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:41.950 also has the opportunity to assess that for themselves, asking them really honest questions 120 00:08:41.070 --> 00:08:43.950 about what they're what they're trying to get out of the next couple of years 121 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:48.789 of their career, thinking about does that really align with what we're looking for? 122 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:52.629 Sometimes I see hiring managers and and recruiters get really desperate. They're like 123 00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:56.539 we need to hire for this role immediately, we needed this yesterday, and 124 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.419 that causes people to just say, well, this person's probably right, they 125 00:09:01.539 --> 00:09:05.820 look great on paper and even though this role is not quite the right fit 126 00:09:05.899 --> 00:09:09.899 for what they're looking for in the next chapter their career. Let's let's see 127 00:09:09.899 --> 00:09:11.129 if we can make this work, and I think that's a mistake in the 128 00:09:11.250 --> 00:09:16.289 long run. So really, I would say first step is thinking about that 129 00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:20.049 in the hiring process, making sure you're thinking about what is the role? 130 00:09:20.169 --> 00:09:22.009 What is this going to look like? You know, not just today as 131 00:09:22.049 --> 00:09:24.919 we're thinking about it, but would have success in this role look like six 132 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.000 months, twelve months down the line? And who will we need to add 133 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:33.440 value here? And can we kind of boil that down to a couple of 134 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:39.269 competencies or skills so that we look for the right kind of fits and as 135 00:09:39.389 --> 00:09:43.629 those people as he's trying to assess candidates, keeping that in mind. So 136 00:09:43.750 --> 00:09:46.070 that's kind of really the first step. It's the foundation. Then, once 137 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:52.470 you have successfully, hopefully hired someone, you really want to spend a good 138 00:09:52.590 --> 00:09:56.539 amount of time, and I think this is so easy to overlook and just 139 00:09:56.700 --> 00:10:00.899 ignore, on boarding it. No one loves doing it. It seems so 140 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:05.059 boring and it seems like such a long, laborious step, but effective onboarding 141 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:09.649 makes all the difference. You know, we talked a lot about first impressions. 142 00:10:09.929 --> 00:10:15.090 onboarding is really kind of like the second first impression you have for someone 143 00:10:15.129 --> 00:10:18.129 at it, at it in a roll and in a company. So making 144 00:10:18.210 --> 00:10:22.679 sure that through the onboarding pro process, you kind of reiterate what the role 145 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:26.480 is and isn't, what the expectations really are for someone. What would they 146 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.480 what would you call success, and what would you call like exceeding that expectation 147 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.360 six and twelve months down the line and setting those boundaries from from the very 148 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:41.070 beginning thinking about you know, that's like within onboarding. There's a whole bunch 149 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:43.830 of stuff you need to think about and we can kind of go back and 150 00:10:43.870 --> 00:10:48.149 talk about that in a bit. But really I think more and more millennials, 151 00:10:48.269 --> 00:10:50.940 Gen Z and and people kind of early and mid levels in their career 152 00:10:50.980 --> 00:10:56.019 are thinking about more than just a paycheck. So a paycheck doesn't just cut 153 00:10:56.019 --> 00:11:01.539 it anymore. It is important, especially in sales roles like people care about 154 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:03.730 that, of course, but you you also want to make sure that they 155 00:11:03.769 --> 00:11:07.769 feel. People want to feel like they belong somewhere. So how do you 156 00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:11.970 make that happen? The other part is that they need to think about they 157 00:11:13.049 --> 00:11:16.330 need to feel and think that they are contributing and doing meaningful work, that 158 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:22.039 their work is purpose driven and that can be, you know, in a 159 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:24.600 number of ways. It can be partially purpose driven by I feel like my 160 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.720 work is going to help my own career, it will help me kind of 161 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.389 elevate myself to the next stage in that career. It can be more it 162 00:11:33.470 --> 00:11:37.149 can be more broad, like how does this help my team or my company 163 00:11:37.190 --> 00:11:39.549 succeed? And and that can give people a sense of purpose as well. 164 00:11:39.990 --> 00:11:43.389 And of course there's this other aspect of it which could be mission driven and 165 00:11:43.509 --> 00:11:48.460 like I'm not just helping myself or my team, but this actually helped the 166 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:52.059 community and society in which I live in. There's there's meaning to that work 167 00:11:52.179 --> 00:11:56.899 beyond just my own self interest and I think that makes a huge difference for 168 00:11:56.019 --> 00:12:01.049 people making sure that they feel engaged and feel persistent through the times when, 169 00:12:01.409 --> 00:12:05.690 you know, everyone has those moments in their jobs where you feel like nothing 170 00:12:05.809 --> 00:12:09.570 is going right. I'm working long hours and banging my head against the wall, 171 00:12:09.809 --> 00:12:11.889 thinking to myself why, like why am I doing this? Why am 172 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:16.159 I'm working so hard? What's the point? And in those moments you want 173 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.480 to have an answer to that. Why? If an employer does not help 174 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:24.440 employees find the answer to that why and does not instill that in them in 175 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.240 those moments are when you start to lose and chip away at their engagement. 176 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:33.070 So you have to you have to know and expect that those moments will happen 177 00:12:33.590 --> 00:12:37.870 and plan for them by instilling that sense of purpose and meaningful work within their 178 00:12:37.990 --> 00:12:41.470 work and finding ways to do that. And then, finally, I think 179 00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:46.460 you know another aspect that that more and more people are thinking about our benefits 180 00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:50.740 and benefits that matter. So, you know, having chips in the office 181 00:12:50.779 --> 00:12:54.179 or a foodsball table. There was a time in which that was really novel 182 00:12:54.340 --> 00:12:58.169 and and Swade maybe people, but I don't think that cuts it anymore. 183 00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:03.289 And especially now in a covid life we're all working from home. Knowing that 184 00:13:03.409 --> 00:13:05.690 my office has all these amazing perks and it's such a great view and whatever, 185 00:13:05.970 --> 00:13:09.009 just doesn't mean anything to me anymore. So now you have to really 186 00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:13.120 engage with your employees and think about what is meaningful to them, what would 187 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:18.360 help them, what do they want? And I think they're there's probably two 188 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.039 big ones that will that will likely come up, but they're I'm sure they're 189 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.639 going to be, you know, instances of other things. So the first 190 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:30.429 one would be learning and development. Are you providing opportunities for them to learn 191 00:13:30.429 --> 00:13:33.590 and grow? Are you really helping them figure out what the next five, 192 00:13:33.629 --> 00:13:37.389 hundred, ten, twenty years of their career looks like, knowing that that 193 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:41.460 will likely not be with you with this employer? But how do you set 194 00:13:41.539 --> 00:13:45.419 them up for success longer term? That helps people. You shouldn't think about 195 00:13:45.460 --> 00:13:50.179 your your training them for someone else. What if you don't train them and 196 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:54.539 then they stay? That's even worse. So you really have to think about 197 00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:58.570 how you helped elevate everyone's game, and especially people who are like early or 198 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:01.970 mid levels in their careers. You know placed a large emphasis on that. 199 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:05.889 The other side of that might be people who were later on in their careers 200 00:14:07.049 --> 00:14:11.960 might really enjoy the opportunity to mentor and and advise, you know, people 201 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.960 earlier on in the career. So so that can go both ways and it 202 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:18.080 has a lot of benefits and kind of can engage employees and then in a 203 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.360 whole different level. And then, of course, I think the final thing, 204 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:26.269 and impacted even more by covid is thinking a little bit flexibly about how 205 00:14:26.309 --> 00:14:30.230 work can be done. So you know, there was a time not that 206 00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:33.149 long ago that we thought everyone needs to be in an office to be effective 207 00:14:33.269 --> 00:14:37.700 and to be productive. That has a hundred percent been shattered like we cannot, 208 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:43.179 we cannot hide behind that that anymore. So everyone has to work from 209 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:46.779 home, or at least for the first see of future. How do we 210 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:50.019 make that flexibility go one level deeper, knowing that people might have kids at 211 00:14:50.059 --> 00:14:52.929 home, that they might be taking care of things, that they have a 212 00:14:54.049 --> 00:14:58.570 whole life going on as well? Finding that flexibility and balance between work and 213 00:14:58.769 --> 00:15:01.809 life will help employees feel more engaged. So I think those are probably a 214 00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:05.730 couple of the things that you really want to think about. I think you 215 00:15:05.889 --> 00:15:11.240 just solved the problem. I mean that's incredible. I mean I assume that 216 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.799 stuff that you've done, that the companies you've worked out. I mean, 217 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.759 yes, no, right, you definitely. Every company, I think, 218 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:22.750 tries and thinks about these things. Now, how successful you are in implementing 219 00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:26.710 and actually carrying this stuff out really depends on the commitment of senior leaders at 220 00:15:26.789 --> 00:15:31.350 the company, really depends on if you have the right people implementing these things 221 00:15:31.429 --> 00:15:35.139 and, of course, really listening to to your employees, like what is 222 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:39.659 working and what isn't. You know, having ways where you engage them ask 223 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:43.860 questions, where they feel like they can, they can give you feedback on 224 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:46.659 you know this. This looked great in theory, but as we're going through 225 00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:52.169 it it's not quite that right that if you allow that dialog to happen, 226 00:15:52.730 --> 00:15:56.009 employees will tell you what they really want and will tell you how you can 227 00:15:56.049 --> 00:15:58.730 keep them engaged and keep them there for they who said this, but I 228 00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:03.809 remember someone told me once like anytime you see a good movie, it's almost 229 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:07.000 a freaking miracle that that happened. If you think about how many moving parts 230 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.000 that were, like, even all the way down to the catering, you 231 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:12.879 know, like if Johnny Depp didn't get the cheese he liked on that day 232 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.600 that he's shot the pivotal scene, that's that's just all out the window right. 233 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:19.590 So everything has to go right. Like you said, the right people 234 00:16:19.629 --> 00:16:22.470 have to be in the right spot, everybody has to be actually bought in, 235 00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:27.029 and that's something that I've seen to be a huge problem, is people 236 00:16:27.070 --> 00:16:32.070 don't believe in whatever the mission in. What are some tactics you might have 237 00:16:32.149 --> 00:16:34.539 used in the past or some ways that you can think about the situation to 238 00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:38.580 help get people bought in to get help people buy into the mission of a 239 00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:42.460 company, and especially the mission of what you were talking about, like aligning 240 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:48.129 everything along this like long journey where people feel like they're in the right space 241 00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:49.450 and they're doing the best work of their life. I think, again, 242 00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:52.490 it's a really good question. It goes back to recruiting. Like, as 243 00:16:52.570 --> 00:16:56.490 you are recruiting, if you have recruiters that are smart and asking the right 244 00:16:56.490 --> 00:17:00.679 questions of people before you know, asking questions that are not leading, you 245 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:04.119 don't ask the candidate, do you love working in a startup environment? Of 246 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.400 course everyone's going to say yes, but do you do they understand what the 247 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.440 realities of working in a startup environment mean right? Do they understand that that 248 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:15.470 means chaos, that that means structures that you might be really used to in 249 00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:19.990 enlarge, well structured environments might not be there, that you need to build 250 00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:25.109 that infrastructure as you go? So I think that that goes back to the 251 00:17:25.150 --> 00:17:29.069 same thing with the mission. You know, I work in education technology. 252 00:17:29.190 --> 00:17:33.140 It's very mission driven. A lot of the people that I speak to are 253 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:37.900 incredibly excited about that. I don't need to sell them on why education is 254 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:44.849 so important in our society today and especially to late today. Right, if 255 00:17:44.930 --> 00:17:48.009 you if you listen for those cues and make sure that that people already come 256 00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:52.329 with this alignment of values within themselves and check their values against the values of 257 00:17:52.410 --> 00:17:56.089 the company, you get that alignment. You don't want to look for culture 258 00:17:56.170 --> 00:18:00.799 fit. Culture fit sounds to me very scary, like a cult. We're 259 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.480 building a cult. Let's make sure everyone fits right into this right. Instead, 260 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.279 what you want to think about is culture AD and value fit. So 261 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.640 if you have a really clear sense of what are we doing here, what 262 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:17.390 are the values that we work against, and those should hopefully really closely aligned 263 00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:19.869 to the mission of your company and what you're actually trying to achieve, then 264 00:18:19.950 --> 00:18:23.950 you can check that against the candidates that you're looking at and against the people 265 00:18:23.990 --> 00:18:27.779 that you hire. Do they hold those same values dear for themselves? It 266 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:32.019 doesn't have to be a perfect match, but, for example, if you're 267 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:37.740 doing impact driven work and this person is really driven by money in it's not 268 00:18:37.819 --> 00:18:41.019 a judgment, but they're in a stage in their life or they're in a 269 00:18:41.099 --> 00:18:45.089 place in you know what they're what they're doing, that money really makes a 270 00:18:45.130 --> 00:18:48.809 difference for them. You're not going to this isn't going to quite mesh in 271 00:18:48.930 --> 00:18:52.089 the same way. Their values are not aligned with what your company's values are. 272 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:56.359 So making those decisions early on, understanding what you're really trying to achieve, 273 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:00.640 how that aligns with how you actually work and conduct yourself as a business, 274 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.200 and then making sure you check that against candidates that you speak to, 275 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:10.000 I think is really important. Now what happens when you have people already employees, 276 00:19:10.029 --> 00:19:14.190 already engaged or or already here the company? I think at that point 277 00:19:14.269 --> 00:19:18.589 it's really important to find that purpose in the work. And again, you 278 00:19:18.670 --> 00:19:21.470 know, if you're a mission driven company, part of that work is already 279 00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:25.220 done for you. You can you can easily connect people's work to the broader 280 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:27.579 mission of the company and what they're trying to achieve. If your company is 281 00:19:29.019 --> 00:19:32.740 profit driven or not a mission driven company, it doesn't mean that you still 282 00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:36.099 can't have purpose. You just have to find what that purpose is within the 283 00:19:36.220 --> 00:19:38.690 team. You have to think about can innovation be a purpose? We're trying 284 00:19:38.730 --> 00:19:44.289 to do something really new and unique here. Can you get people excited about 285 00:19:44.329 --> 00:19:48.289 that? That can be great on its own. Can you get people excited 286 00:19:48.329 --> 00:19:49.849 about what you're going to learn through this process? This is going to be 287 00:19:49.890 --> 00:19:52.799 a hard journey as we go through. We're trying to sell something that is 288 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.640 like unique and doesn't quite you know, we have to sell this a little 289 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.720 bit more. You know, this is a complex sales right, but along 290 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:06.079 the way you're going to learn all these things and this will help you find 291 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:08.349 these types of jobs or it will set you up for success in these types 292 00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:12.230 of careers. That can be really great way to kind of connect someone to 293 00:20:12.349 --> 00:20:15.829 the purpose of I'm going to learn a lot through this. So I think 294 00:20:15.829 --> 00:20:19.789 it's thinking about what what will work in the context of your own company and 295 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:25.940 figuring out ways to align that with people's values and people's own personal missions. 296 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:30.259 It's beautiful. Thank you. And as we prepare to accent and say goodbye 297 00:20:30.819 --> 00:20:36.049 to each other into the audience, what is some advice that you would give 298 00:20:36.130 --> 00:20:40.849 specifically maybe a recruiter, a person in hr who's struggling with I. Attrition 299 00:20:40.930 --> 00:20:45.329 rates and just wants like, where do I start? First? I think 300 00:20:45.849 --> 00:20:48.930 look at who you are using and why. Try to understand that. A 301 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:53.279 lot of the Times I see that recruits don't pay up attention about to the 302 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.839 candidates that they've hired and in the company I continually check in with with my 303 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.359 hiring manage and say how's that person doing? Three months of past, how 304 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:04.509 are they doing their job? Or they successful? Six months of past, 305 00:21:04.589 --> 00:21:08.069 how are they doing now? You know, if anyone is leaving our company 306 00:21:08.150 --> 00:21:11.470 that I've hired, I go back and not only speak to them but I 307 00:21:11.509 --> 00:21:14.630 speak to their manager as well and to their team. What went wrong here? 308 00:21:14.950 --> 00:21:18.660 Once you start to understand that, don't make assumptions, but really go 309 00:21:18.819 --> 00:21:22.099 in and try to understand, be curious about that, I think you'll get 310 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:26.460 a better sense of you know, where could I have helped see this further? 311 00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:30.380 You know, going back six months to when I first hired them, 312 00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:33.490 was there any indications that I missed? was there any indications that maybe the 313 00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:37.849 hire managers in the team nest? So I think taking the closer look at 314 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:42.369 your own loop will help you and overtime hopefully you'll start to see either some 315 00:21:42.569 --> 00:21:45.529 patterns or you will see will you know, you lose people from time to 316 00:21:45.609 --> 00:21:48.480 time. You can't. You can't change that, but but making sure that 317 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:52.960 it doesn't become or revolving door. And the thing that I wrote down and 318 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:59.000 underlined and put three explanation points on was at the culture add and value fitline. 319 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:00.670 God, that's good that that would fit like really good on like a 320 00:22:00.750 --> 00:22:04.470 snapple bottle Cape. I love it. Them credit for that, for that 321 00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:07.509 snappy statement. It's not mine, it's out there in the world. I 322 00:22:07.710 --> 00:22:12.029 can't remember who I've heard it from, but it's really it's exactly kind of 323 00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:15.819 you know, on point you really have to think about. You're not culture. 324 00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:21.099 You look at culture add with building a cult sorty culture bit you're building 325 00:22:21.140 --> 00:22:23.259 a cult. What you want to look at this culture AD and value fit. 326 00:22:23.619 --> 00:22:30.410 You can have a really diverse population of employees have the aligned on values. 327 00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:36.369 You probably can't have a super diverse company and have everyone have the exact 328 00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:40.930 same culture. So as you're thinking about diversity as well, you can have 329 00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:45.359 diversity and value alignment and that's how you get people to work together well as 330 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:48.799 well. I think especially in America we have the most opportunity for that. 331 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:51.359 I mean where the melting pie right like. We need to take advantage of 332 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:55.160 the fact that. How any perspectives we have saw on it? Is there 333 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:57.990 anything that you want to plug before we go today? You know, I 334 00:22:59.150 --> 00:23:02.269 care not plug this because this is just something that's so near and dear to 335 00:23:02.349 --> 00:23:07.390 my heart is stop around diversity and belonging right. Thinking about this. Is 336 00:23:07.670 --> 00:23:11.349 this where in a moment in American history and really around the world, where 337 00:23:12.339 --> 00:23:18.180 this is becoming increasingly obvious that we we've missed the mark here right. And 338 00:23:18.579 --> 00:23:22.059 I think what's important is it as a company, if you're not paying attention 339 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:27.769 to this, your employees are, you will lose people and more. More 340 00:23:27.849 --> 00:23:33.809 millennials care about that. They want to feel and it's not just the underrepresented 341 00:23:33.890 --> 00:23:37.769 minorities that care about this. Everyone cares about this. So really thinking about 342 00:23:37.849 --> 00:23:42.400 how you pull yourselves and your employees accountable to that, how you think about 343 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:47.279 the makeup of your team and how you that, also knowing that that also 344 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:51.200 helps your bottom line. More diverse teams do better in terms of revenue. 345 00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:55.440 You know, solve better, solve more challenging problems and all of that stuff. 346 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:59.789 So thinking being intentional and how you win talent over and knowing that the 347 00:23:59.910 --> 00:24:03.509 longer you take to figure this out, the harder it's going to be. 348 00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:07.230 To write that Shit. And I think, Hey, equity place a big 349 00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:12.460 part in not being really transparent or clear about how you're thinking about pay will 350 00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:17.660 help you win more diverse talent over as well. Percent Agree with you. 351 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:22.339 Is there preferred method for people to contact you and talk to you more about 352 00:24:22.339 --> 00:24:26.890 these topics? Absolutely, Linkedin is a great way to reach out to me. 353 00:24:26.009 --> 00:24:30.450 Awesome. Same for me. I'm on Linkedin way too much. Actually 354 00:24:30.490 --> 00:24:36.289 on Linkedin right now and having this conversation, which is crazy right either way, 355 00:24:36.650 --> 00:24:40.319 I appreciate you all for listening. I love you. Don't ever change. 356 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:45.759 I'll see next time. This episode is brought to you by Panda Doc. 357 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.960 Sending your documents is pdf through email is super old school. It's time 358 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:53.069 to whole this socks off your prospects, clients and colleagues by creating, sending, 359 00:24:53.190 --> 00:24:57.349 tracking and e signing with Panda Doc. Go to panda doccom slash bb 360 00:24:57.549 --> 00:25:02.430 today and start a completely free trial. No credit card required.