#Sales 3: A 10-Part Sales Development Action Plan for Sales Leaders w/ Belal Batrawy

WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:10.589 That's where the gold lies, is those misunderstandings, those misques, those misconceptions 2 00:00:10.630 --> 00:00:16.829 that they they've gotten from using the product. Welcome back to the sales series 3 00:00:16.949 --> 00:00:21.109 of BB growth. My name is James Carberry and I'm joined today by bell 4 00:00:21.429 --> 00:00:25.940 but trowy. He is the head of sales at stratify, and today we're 5 00:00:25.940 --> 00:00:31.019 going to be talking about a really tangible action plan for sales development that any 6 00:00:31.140 --> 00:00:36.049 BB sales leave your can use in their organization. Be Little before we jump 7 00:00:36.130 --> 00:00:40.689 into this. You know you share a ton of really tactical advice for both 8 00:00:40.810 --> 00:00:44.250 SDRs and a's on Linkedin. I've been following your stuff for a while now. 9 00:00:44.250 --> 00:00:46.850 It seems like you're popping up in my new feed at least every other 10 00:00:46.890 --> 00:00:51.600 day. But we're going to be focusing on sales development in this episode and 11 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:56.280 before we get into kind of a tactical action plan, give our listeners just 12 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:00.240 a little bit of context and tell us why you're so passionate about sales development. 13 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.119 For sure we'll thanks for having me first. First off, James, 14 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:06.709 honor to be on the show. Very excited to do this and I'm glad 15 00:01:06.750 --> 00:01:11.310 the linked an algorithm that is yes, grace be grace feed, the presence 16 00:01:11.349 --> 00:01:12.629 of your feed, because you never know what that thing's going to do. 17 00:01:12.909 --> 00:01:15.750 Right, that's awesome to here. Yes, sales development, right, I 18 00:01:15.829 --> 00:01:21.939 mean it's the cornerstone of every successful sales team. Right, is building that 19 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:26.260 funnel from that, from the point of the target adjustable market, actually turning 20 00:01:26.379 --> 00:01:30.579 people from unaware it's interested in your product and, quite frankly, it's one 21 00:01:30.579 --> 00:01:34.769 of the toughest jobs you can do. I think we all remember being an 22 00:01:34.890 --> 00:01:38.489 str just wishing to get out of that role. It's a very, very, 23 00:01:38.489 --> 00:01:42.209 very challenging and it just got a lot harder, right, everything going 24 00:01:42.290 --> 00:01:45.209 on in the world right now. So it's one of those ones as well. 25 00:01:45.290 --> 00:01:48.799 That's a vulnerable position because when things do go wrong, they're the first 26 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.200 to go right. It's a position that I think a lot of sills is 27 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.439 would say. It's acceptable for it to be a turnover position, which you 28 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:59.719 know when we say turnover and talking about people's lives on, about people's wellbeing, 29 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.469 people's jobs. So it's a number of things that go into why sales 30 00:02:02.510 --> 00:02:07.670 development is so mission critical and and getting it right. I mean it was 31 00:02:07.750 --> 00:02:12.069 the difference between me seeing startups growing five hundred percent year over year versus growing 32 00:02:12.150 --> 00:02:15.139 one hundred percent year over year really so little. Let's dive in and get 33 00:02:15.180 --> 00:02:17.819 tactical, because I've seen enough of your content to know that you can. 34 00:02:17.979 --> 00:02:22.020 You can go there and you go there often, and I think so many 35 00:02:22.060 --> 00:02:27.900 people get value out of that really deep tactical content that you're sharing on linkedin. 36 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:31.969 So you recently stepped into a head of sales role and so you're probably 37 00:02:32.009 --> 00:02:35.810 living this right now. We talked a little bit offline about where you're at 38 00:02:35.930 --> 00:02:38.770 with with stratify and kind of the things that you're tackling now, being early 39 00:02:38.889 --> 00:02:44.479 in the role. Tell us what your action plan for sales development looks like 40 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:49.120 at stratify? Yes, definitely, and it's a peculiar one, because I'll 41 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:52.280 preface it with this right, there's a there's a term in psychology the curse 42 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.759 of knowledge. Okay, the curse of knowledge is when you learn something, 43 00:02:55.319 --> 00:03:00.550 you can't remove yourself from that contextual understanding to talk to somebody else that doesn't 44 00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:04.949 know the thing you just learned. All right, and the simple way to 45 00:03:05.349 --> 00:03:08.189 explain this is the test that they did to prove this curse of knowledge was 46 00:03:08.509 --> 00:03:14.539 they would have a group of people either sit a hum or, whistle happy 47 00:03:14.620 --> 00:03:17.419 birthday, write a tune that we all know to another group of people and 48 00:03:17.699 --> 00:03:22.580 the people humming and whistling thought for sure the other people knew what song they 49 00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:24.699 were they were humming and whistling at, and the majority of people had no 50 00:03:24.780 --> 00:03:28.330 clue what they were doing. Right, because they were cursed with knowledge. 51 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:30.449 They knew that they were singing happy birthday. Just assume the other party would 52 00:03:30.449 --> 00:03:34.650 get it, and they don't. So then imagine with something like product knowledge. 53 00:03:34.689 --> 00:03:38.330 So when it comes to like this action plan, this is very peculiar 54 00:03:38.409 --> 00:03:43.719 because I'm trying to avoid the curse of knowledge for myself and my team, 55 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:47.639 so that way we can be tactically empathetic to the buyer who knows nothing about 56 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:52.319 us, right, who lives in a world of unaware and we need to 57 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.349 take them out of that unawareness. So, that being said, step one 58 00:03:55.509 --> 00:04:00.310 for me is talked as many customers as possible. Right I just want to 59 00:04:00.430 --> 00:04:04.030 hear how they describe the product because again, if I just dive head first 60 00:04:04.069 --> 00:04:08.750 into learning the product itself, I'm going to learn it from the people who 61 00:04:08.870 --> 00:04:11.699 created it, not the people who use it. Right, and I need 62 00:04:11.860 --> 00:04:15.259 that understanding of the users, who will miss features, who will self educate, 63 00:04:15.420 --> 00:04:19.220 who will make assumptions based on their first impressions of the product that may 64 00:04:19.300 --> 00:04:24.329 be wrong, and all those things are great. The perfect that's where the 65 00:04:24.490 --> 00:04:30.209 gold lies, is those misunderstandings, those misques, those misconceptions that they've they've 66 00:04:30.290 --> 00:04:33.129 gotten from using the product. So as you as you've done that at stratify, 67 00:04:34.009 --> 00:04:36.689 are you going to your product team and saying, Hey, show me, 68 00:04:38.170 --> 00:04:41.399 show me the users that are inner product every day and then I want 69 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.680 to see some users that are using the product once a week, like is 70 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:46.560 that how you're organizing that? or or you looking at like, Hey, 71 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:49.360 I want to I want to talk to enterprise customers and I want to talk 72 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:53.790 to mid market customers. Like, how are you thinking through what customers you 73 00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:58.430 want to prioritize to have these conversations with? Fantastic question. I so almost 74 00:04:58.430 --> 00:05:00.189 every startup I've been at and used as a session replay tool. Right, 75 00:05:00.189 --> 00:05:02.389 there's a bunch of them out there. So yeah, you look in the 76 00:05:02.430 --> 00:05:05.629 session replay too and you see who's engaging with our product and start with them 77 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:10.300 first, and they are the ones who are going to teach me the product 78 00:05:10.339 --> 00:05:14.540 initially. They are going to form my first unbreakable impression of what the product 79 00:05:14.699 --> 00:05:17.819 is. So that way I will be skewed to the customers understanding of the 80 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:23.170 product, not my product team's understanding of what it is, not the engineering 81 00:05:23.170 --> 00:05:27.009 teams understanding of what it is. So it really anchors me to a very 82 00:05:27.009 --> 00:05:30.930 different viewpoint from day one, where I'm like, this product was taught to 83 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:33.529 me by people who use it, who think it's x. You think it's 84 00:05:33.569 --> 00:05:36.240 xplus. Why? But they don't get that why part. Neither do I, 85 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:40.839 because I learned it through their eyes. So yeah, you can start 86 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:44.160 with engaged users and you work your way out of that two ones that are 87 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.160 less engaged, and typically there's a theme that comes out of that very quickly. 88 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:53.629 And then you doing this recently at stratify. Are you talking to ten 89 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:57.230 customers, twenty customers? What's kind of a Ballpark of what folks should shoot 90 00:05:57.230 --> 00:06:00.230 for in terms of how many conversations and you'd have? Yeah, the the 91 00:06:00.350 --> 00:06:02.589 errant idea would be like as many as possible, but it's not quite the 92 00:06:02.709 --> 00:06:06.339 case because eventually you do want to have some patterned recognition and just read the 93 00:06:06.420 --> 00:06:12.259 signs and then dismiss the outliers for just that. So for me it's usually 94 00:06:12.300 --> 00:06:15.339 like ten to fifteen is usually the spot where I'm like okay, and I've 95 00:06:15.339 --> 00:06:19.050 got the recurring themes and I can I can understand what was the outlier and 96 00:06:19.170 --> 00:06:23.370 what wasn't. So that one earlier conversation was just a little bit weird, 97 00:06:23.410 --> 00:06:27.170 because the other seven after that we're pretty much like the the first one and 98 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:30.370 and kind of get those those things going. And once you've got those general 99 00:06:30.490 --> 00:06:32.720 themes, you're just beating a dead horse that point like the vision returns. 100 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:38.839 Yep, all right. So your step two here in this action plan is 101 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:43.720 to map the buyers journey to the sales process elaborate on that force. Yeah, 102 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.230 so you've got this idea right now. Now you've learned the product of 103 00:06:46.310 --> 00:06:50.670 the customers eyes and and what's interesting is that the buyers journeys universal, no 104 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:54.670 matter what we're dealing with, and it's something that I wasn't taught as a 105 00:06:54.790 --> 00:06:58.350 seller very early on. It was years later on that I finally learned the 106 00:06:58.350 --> 00:07:00.029 buyers journey, which is kind of weird because that's our business, right. 107 00:07:00.069 --> 00:07:06.779 Yeah, but the buyers journeys universal. It's unaware, aware consideration evaluation decision. 108 00:07:08.339 --> 00:07:10.660 So whether it's a stick, a gum, a house, a piece 109 00:07:10.699 --> 00:07:14.259 of software, whatever it is, we go through these five steps. So 110 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:17.649 can we map our sales process to that buyers journey and how we took these 111 00:07:18.089 --> 00:07:23.970 ten or fifteen customers from never hearing our product to making a decision and buying 112 00:07:23.970 --> 00:07:29.009 get using it right and starting with that, because no matter whether it's an 113 00:07:29.329 --> 00:07:33.279 and be mid market or enterprise, sales cycle or product, it's still the 114 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:39.720 same five steps. So yes, our sales process will change based on deal 115 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.879 size, based on, you know, the mixture of products and price point 116 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:47.230 and so on, we're still having to take them through those five basic steps. 117 00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:53.110 Got It. And so you're by looking at those five steps, looking 118 00:07:53.110 --> 00:07:58.899 at what the current buyers journey or how your how your team is currently thinking 119 00:07:58.939 --> 00:08:03.100 about the sales process, and then mashing those together. So I'm assuming you're 120 00:08:03.139 --> 00:08:07.779 making a lot of changes right now in this stage of you being at stratify, 121 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:11.540 or are you making a lot of changes to the sales process itself? 122 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:15.649 has on the clarity you have around those five things. Absolutely right. I 123 00:08:15.730 --> 00:08:18.370 mean it's like when you put up those five and think of it like this. 124 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:20.370 For those I want to be really tactical, you'd make a spreadsheet with 125 00:08:20.410 --> 00:08:24.250 those five steps and you say to yourself, our customers told us the way 126 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:28.720 they learned about us was here, the way they decided to buy was here, 127 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.920 and then what they're doing after is here. So you put that up 128 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:33.200 there and then you say, now, how can I take other people through 129 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.879 that exact same funnel? And you look at what you're doing today as a 130 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:39.960 sales process and you see those gaps. And then, as well, you 131 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.070 look at the tools that you have, whether it's the white papers that you've 132 00:08:43.070 --> 00:08:48.389 got, your website, your your leads, your your email and sequencing, 133 00:08:48.429 --> 00:08:52.429 and you say, is the message that I'm putting through all of these channels 134 00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:56.899 the same that the customer told me that they went through and their buyers journey? 135 00:08:56.100 --> 00:09:00.860 If it's not, guess what, you're not doing a very good job. 136 00:09:00.899 --> 00:09:05.580 If it is, great and optimize and so so that that speaks to 137 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:09.090 see a question I didn't ask you with that step one of like what does 138 00:09:09.129 --> 00:09:13.409 this conversation actually look like with the customers? And it sounds like the answer 139 00:09:13.529 --> 00:09:18.690 is found in step to your with the conversation you're having with customers is walk 140 00:09:18.809 --> 00:09:22.289 me through these five. You know, these five parts of your buying process 141 00:09:22.330 --> 00:09:26.879 or your buyers journey? Yes, so that you now have that insight to 142 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:30.559 go reshape what your sales process needs to look less. Exactly right? That's 143 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.759 exactly right. It's literally an interview. I tell them I would love to 144 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.350 interview you and understand how you went from unaware to decision on our product. 145 00:09:39.350 --> 00:09:43.029 All use the actual words and I'll kind of guide them like this is the 146 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:45.590 format I'm looking forth. That makes sense, and they're like, oh, 147 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:46.789 yeah, totally, because we all know it. Right, we're like, 148 00:09:48.149 --> 00:09:50.990 never heard of you, guys. So and so emailed me, jumped on 149 00:09:50.149 --> 00:09:54.340 too. Look at it was interesting talk to my you know, we all 150 00:09:54.419 --> 00:09:56.220 know those steps. Yep. So how what can you walk us through? 151 00:09:56.259 --> 00:10:01.059 Maybe one or two changes that you've made so Farar at stratusfy after going through 152 00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:05.659 this process? Yeah, one of the big ones was that we changed particularly 153 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:11.049 who we want to focus on selling to and why. Like hearing the customers. 154 00:10:11.210 --> 00:10:13.769 They were some that just simply didn't get the product the way we wanted 155 00:10:13.889 --> 00:10:16.889 them to and some that seemed there. We're getting it a lot better, 156 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:20.370 right, and I think that's common for any for any business. We ask 157 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.840 ourselves why? We looked at the buyers journey. It was like it just 158 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:30.360 makes more sense for this second group versus this first crew, why they're getting 159 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.480 the product more. And I went back and I said, WHAT'S OUR ICP? 160 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.110 What have you guys defined it as the definition the profile didn't match what 161 00:10:37.230 --> 00:10:41.429 we were seeing from the biers journey. So I was the first big change. 162 00:10:41.509 --> 00:10:45.549 And then the second one was the sales process. We said, how 163 00:10:45.830 --> 00:10:50.419 easy is it then for that customer to go through our sales process today? 164 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:54.299 The answer was not very easy. Like we were there was a pre existing 165 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:58.820 process there that was catered for a lot of people that was kind of generic, 166 00:11:00.259 --> 00:11:03.330 and I'm like, well, guess what, those that generic funnel isn't 167 00:11:03.409 --> 00:11:07.889 servicing the one that we know love our product most. Right, so it's 168 00:11:09.009 --> 00:11:13.409 okay if we don't service well the other groups because they're not our priority and 169 00:11:13.409 --> 00:11:16.730 they don't get our product anyway. So we can stand on firm ground. 170 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:20.279 What was it that was a part of your sales process that was geared toward 171 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:24.840 a more generic or audience? Was it just the content that was being delivered 172 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.000 from the strs and their outbound motion or like, what was it that that 173 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:33.070 was off there? It was that it was the follow up to the first 174 00:11:33.190 --> 00:11:35.590 conversations. You get someone on the phone, you explain the product, you 175 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:39.629 want to get them on a demo, and what we did was we just 176 00:11:39.789 --> 00:11:43.029 did this sort of very generic, bland demo and then try to go for 177 00:11:43.110 --> 00:11:48.019 a close. What we change was we wanted to be able to do a 178 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:50.379 value add step in there. That caused a little bit of friction to show 179 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:54.620 commitment to the buying cycle. Or we ask them for a model portfolio that 180 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:58.100 they have that we would run an analysis on and that would be the need 181 00:11:58.179 --> 00:12:01.690 of the second conversation. And we found that if you do that, the 182 00:12:01.850 --> 00:12:05.210 people who care to share that, the people who think that way, are 183 00:12:05.330 --> 00:12:09.370 our ideal buyers, and the people that would be resistant to that second step 184 00:12:09.690 --> 00:12:13.210 it, wouldn't care and just want to go straight to demo, are not 185 00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:18.120 our buyers. That is a really interesting step to put in there, like 186 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.639 purposely adding friction, because you know that that friction maps to somebody who's ultimately 187 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.919 going to see more success from your product and use it more. So I 188 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.669 am we think of it as friction, but they think of it as value 189 00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:33.509 right, because they're thinking, oh, you're going to do a free analysis 190 00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:35.549 for me on a model portfolio? Sure, because if you're the right customer, 191 00:12:35.669 --> 00:12:37.669 you love that. If you're the wrong customer, you're like what, 192 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:41.590 I can? I just see it? Yep, Yep, that I love 193 00:12:41.669 --> 00:12:45.419 that you shared that. Okay. So step three on this action plan is 194 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:50.019 to listen to sales demos and document the gap. Talk to us about that. 195 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:52.820 Yep. So, like you've got this idea, you create this framework, 196 00:12:52.820 --> 00:12:56.059 you've got the document. Now, man, you go go to the 197 00:12:56.139 --> 00:12:58.850 sellers calls, the current or prior ones that have been recorded, and just 198 00:12:58.970 --> 00:13:03.809 see what are we doing right? Are we talking the language that the customers 199 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:09.210 told us or are we not? And just pinpoint where those areas go off 200 00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:11.690 the rails. And there were there were several right, like there were parts 201 00:13:11.730 --> 00:13:16.960 of the product that the sellers were demoing that the customers never even brought up, 202 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.080 that they just simply don't care about. And it feels good for us 203 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.399 as sellers because you know the bells and whistles and it's the shiny parts, 204 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.029 but nobody was using it the way that it was intended. Right. So 205 00:13:28.149 --> 00:13:30.990 it's like you could, you can demo it all you want, guys, 206 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:33.429 but nobody's talking about those things. Nobody's using it in the product. They're 207 00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:37.629 over here this area. So if eighty percent of your demos and spent here, 208 00:13:39.070 --> 00:13:41.059 then you're not doing an effective demo. Yes, yes, I love 209 00:13:41.139 --> 00:13:46.139 that. Okay, number four, talk to potential customers and understand their world 210 00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:50.620 view. Yeah, so this is like this is a hard lesson learned. 211 00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:54.860 I made this big mistake. You can do all this and and try to 212 00:13:54.899 --> 00:13:58.529 build a great process, but the reality is talking to your customers is only 213 00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:03.250 one angle. It's a very valuable one, but your potential buyers are a 214 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:09.009 much bigger part of the universe in your current customers and going to them and 215 00:14:09.129 --> 00:14:11.679 just hearing from them directly, not in a sales so, like I'm talking 216 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:16.879 about, think of it like go find somebody that would be a buyer of 217 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:18.960 yours and ask to interview them and tell them you'd pay them for an hour. 218 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.919 Don't even bring up your product right, just literally talk to them about 219 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:26.750 their world, so that they're not even biased to think why you're doing this 220 00:14:26.909 --> 00:14:30.830 engagement in particular like that because there's a product you want to sell them. 221 00:14:30.909 --> 00:14:33.389 Do it actually just to learn their their world. And when you do that, 222 00:14:33.470 --> 00:14:39.019 that gives you like this secondary perspective of like okay, now I can 223 00:14:39.059 --> 00:14:43.340 see, completely removed from the product, how they get the job done today 224 00:14:45.539 --> 00:14:50.740 and how we're going to communicate why that job that they're getting done today is 225 00:14:50.899 --> 00:14:54.090 not going to be enough as the world changes, got as things change. 226 00:14:54.610 --> 00:14:58.370 So what just to give a little bit more content next to that so people 227 00:14:58.370 --> 00:15:03.690 can understand how should they be framing that interview with potential customers, because they 228 00:15:03.690 --> 00:15:07.279 obviously can't talk to them about what their buyers journey was because people haven't bought 229 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.879 from them yet. So it's there's a completely different conversation than the conversation we 230 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:15.720 alluded to a few steps ago. Can you walk us through what the questions 231 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:20.559 were that you asked in the stratisfy context? Yeah, so for the people 232 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.830 and I went to some people that we knew just personally that were wealth advisors 233 00:15:24.870 --> 00:15:28.870 right, that weren't weren't buying from us, which was great because it's like 234 00:15:28.909 --> 00:15:31.429 I got a connection, I can just talk to them and I was just 235 00:15:31.509 --> 00:15:33.509 asking questions like look, I'm completely new to the world of wealth tech. 236 00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:37.139 I don't know much about it. Here's the things that I keep hearing from 237 00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:41.500 themes of other people that I've spoken to. What's happening in your world right 238 00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:45.779 now? I like, those things real, are they not? Would you 239 00:15:45.860 --> 00:15:48.220 care about them? And then getting into the workflow, because it's always like 240 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:50.450 the jobs to be done. So I'm like, okay, now walk me 241 00:15:50.570 --> 00:15:54.929 through your world. You get graded on what? Okay, and then those 242 00:15:54.929 --> 00:16:00.610 Kpis translate to what great, okay, and like give me, example, 243 00:16:00.690 --> 00:16:04.559 somebody WHO's failing. What's the difference between them and yourself? Fantastic, right, 244 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.759 and I get those details and it's all like work for related. It's 245 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.240 like so when you go and try to find your customer, how do you 246 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.440 do it today? What's working and what's not? It's not relate to my 247 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.830 product, but I want to know that workflow because that's how I want to 248 00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:21.590 talk to them, because I want them to be like almost freaked out when 249 00:16:21.590 --> 00:16:22.509 I first speak to them because like Oh my God, you like no, 250 00:16:22.789 --> 00:16:26.029 you know my details. Like if somebody joined this call right now, I 251 00:16:26.429 --> 00:16:27.750 was like hey, guys, want to know co calling practice. Are Like, 252 00:16:27.789 --> 00:16:30.789 Oh, they know what we talked about, they know they know our 253 00:16:30.870 --> 00:16:33.860 world. So, yeah, I want that same effect happening when you talk 254 00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:37.460 to your to your prospects. Yeah, and that's that's what I've loved so 255 00:16:37.580 --> 00:16:44.059 much about doing podcasts like this is by interview, like we interview you potential 256 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:47.730 buyers all the time on the show, and so being able to speak their 257 00:16:47.769 --> 00:16:52.889 language and understand their perspective. We very rarely talk about what we do, 258 00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:56.730 which is podcasting, with VP's of marketing that we have on these shows. 259 00:16:56.090 --> 00:17:00.090 But because we don't talk about what we do, we're talking about them, 260 00:17:00.409 --> 00:17:03.480 we're talking about what the challenge is that they're facing, how they're overcoming them. 261 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:08.160 It allows us to empathize and makes them actually want to buy from us 262 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.160 when it's it's time to get to that conversation. So in the same way, 263 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.680 I mean you're you're basically saying go out, like don't even think about 264 00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:18.910 trying to, you know, pitch these guys on the on the end of 265 00:17:18.950 --> 00:17:22.029 these phone calls, like that's not that's the farthest thing from what you're trying 266 00:17:22.069 --> 00:17:23.470 to do. You really just want to probably go have, I don't know, 267 00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:30.259 ten conversations completely independent and just understanding all these different nuances that it's taken 268 00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:33.539 us, I mean it's taken us a lot of episodes to figure that stuff 269 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:37.460 out because we weren't as focused as what you're doing. You're going into these 270 00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:41.460 conversations with the specific goal in mind of I want to understand like how do 271 00:17:41.539 --> 00:17:45.130 you acquire customers? What the success look like? What kpis are you being 272 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:48.369 measured by? And I don't think it's going to take a thousand conversations for 273 00:17:48.410 --> 00:17:52.410 you to land there. I feel probably similar to what you said earlier. 274 00:17:52.890 --> 00:17:56.450 And there's there's a point of diminishing returns. Yes, for sure, that 275 00:17:56.569 --> 00:18:00.559 definitely is, and it's a hard lesson learned because in the early days I 276 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.880 didn't do that. I ignored that piece of it and then I would just 277 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.519 try to talk my customers language to a noncustomer, and that gets lost in 278 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.680 translation because that also has a curse of knowledge. Right, Yep, my 279 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:14.349 customers are talking to me because they already know my product, they're already familiar 280 00:18:14.390 --> 00:18:18.069 with me, so they're going to skew, they're going to be cognitively biased 281 00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:21.269 in that conversation a bit because they know what I'm trying to get out of 282 00:18:21.309 --> 00:18:23.029 them. Right, yeah, when I talk to somebody that has no clue 283 00:18:23.029 --> 00:18:27.460 what I do and I'm just trying to learn their world, that that's filters 284 00:18:27.500 --> 00:18:32.460 a lot of that bias out. I love it. Okay, so we've 285 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:36.420 gone through the first four steps. So talking to as many customers as possible, 286 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:40.099 and that step one, mapping the buyers journey to the sales process, 287 00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:45.170 listening to your sales demos and documenting the gap. Then talking to potential customers 288 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:48.650 and understanding their world view. This fifth one build the narrative, the story 289 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.849 arc of the check, of the changing world, threat and promise land. 290 00:18:53.250 --> 00:18:57.359 Talk to us about this, because this this feels very marketing. Ask to 291 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:02.400 me. So I'm curious how you've integrated with the head of marketing at stratisfy 292 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.480 or if you have it all to do this. So I this is a 293 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:10.000 guy give Kudos to. This is all rain Andy Raskin love his stuff. 294 00:19:10.150 --> 00:19:11.829 Yeah, don't follow or read his stuff, you have to. That's the 295 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:17.269 way he talks about. Narrative is so critical and I've just seen the most 296 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:19.990 successful startups I've been at really nail that narrative right, where everybody's just talking 297 00:19:21.109 --> 00:19:23.859 the same way. And this is the idea of like you should have a 298 00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:29.660 lot of data at this point, like it should be really clear and what 299 00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:33.900 you want to identify is. Here's the world today. Here's the change that's 300 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.220 happening that I'm hearing from a lot of people, the thing that they're all 301 00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:41.849 going to resonate with. They all understand. And guess what, Here's the 302 00:19:41.970 --> 00:19:45.609 potential threat that you haven't thought about. It's kind of come from this changeing 303 00:19:45.690 --> 00:19:48.930 work. Going to be winners or losers. Are you going to be on 304 00:19:48.089 --> 00:19:52.849 that side or on this side when that occurs? And once you, once 305 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.119 you get them in that mode, right, that's limbic brain messaging. That's 306 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:00.039 the fighter fight messaging. That the messaging that brings out an emotional connection where 307 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.319 we hear a story and gets through the center of that story. Is it's 308 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.029 then right there, the nighting shining arm and that story. They're the one 309 00:20:07.109 --> 00:20:11.950 going through the Joseph Campbell Story Arc right, and we are Merlin giving them 310 00:20:11.950 --> 00:20:15.109 the magic sword that's going to help them slay the Dragon. Right, this 311 00:20:15.309 --> 00:20:19.269 change is vicious. Winners or losers are going to come from it. What 312 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:22.819 side do you want to be on? This is the promised land and here's 313 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:26.900 a way to get there. We think we've got a way to get there. 314 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:30.700 Do you agree? And if people agree to that big story, like 315 00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:34.019 they see the world in your in your view. They understand that? Then, 316 00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:38.009 do you know? The the features, the bells and whistles, the 317 00:20:38.650 --> 00:20:41.009 it's all just going to be most makes it a moot point. Yeah, 318 00:20:41.089 --> 00:20:45.170 yeah, it's all just gravy at that point. Yep, and and know, 319 00:20:45.329 --> 00:20:48.650 and you're askin share, share that deck. Think it was the Zora 320 00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:52.559 deck. Yes, that really illustrates the what you just said. There that 321 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.960 here's here's the problem. You're going to land on either side of it. 322 00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.240 Which side you want to land on? Here's what we think. The solution 323 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.160 is to get you to land on the right side of history. Really exactly 324 00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:07.950 and speaking about it at that high level as you were talking. You know, 325 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:11.630 Donald Miller talks about this a lot in his book building a story brand 326 00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:18.309 and so just very similar like understanding narrative and storytelling and the fact that we 327 00:21:18.430 --> 00:21:22.259 are not the hero. Our customer is the hero. We are the Yoda. 328 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:26.779 That totally the why, you know, the wise sage kind of side 329 00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:30.420 character in the story. You know, the hardest part about it to James 330 00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:34.329 is that it's really unnatural to think that way. But yeah, I just 331 00:21:34.450 --> 00:21:37.490 want to give props to all the sellers out there there in the trenches right 332 00:21:37.490 --> 00:21:41.769 now. Because, guess what, we're naturally egocentric, like I'm the center 333 00:21:41.809 --> 00:21:44.250 of my world, you're the center of yours, like that's our minds thing. 334 00:21:44.609 --> 00:21:48.839 It is unnatural to put somebody else, especially a stranger, as a 335 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.720 center of the world. So it might sound like it makes sense, guys, 336 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.000 but I'm just like to all the listeners just be aware. It is 337 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.400 very natural to regress and make yourself the night in shining armor. It's a 338 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.349 really easy to do that because it's natural to do so. Did you have 339 00:22:03.430 --> 00:22:07.069 a lot of friction? Were you working with the marketing side of the house 340 00:22:08.150 --> 00:22:11.269 when you were coming up with this narrative, or did you have a lot 341 00:22:11.309 --> 00:22:14.549 of a town of Mey to figure this out on your own? I unfortunately 342 00:22:14.589 --> 00:22:18.140 had a lot of autonomy. But you know, I think it's because it's 343 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:21.140 a younger startup, so it's a little bit easier just to be more flexible 344 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:23.660 and agile that kind of stuff. But yeah, yeah, I can imagine 345 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:27.539 in a larger organization there might be, you know, political interest and so 346 00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:30.529 and all that kind of stuff that would make cause some friction to do something 347 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:33.809 like that. But the output is it was so clear. It's so clean 348 00:22:33.930 --> 00:22:37.849 when you've got that story and it makes the sales of marketing messaging so much 349 00:22:37.890 --> 00:22:41.049 more impactful and mean you see it with like brands like Gong and drift and 350 00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:45.960 others. Right. They've coined these phrases, they've created these like market niches 351 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.960 and now you just know them by those stories. Yeah, yeah, I 352 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:52.920 think your spot on. And and to look at the sex. I mean, 353 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.400 you see what it's terminus did the same thing with ABM. Yes, 354 00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:00.150 you see, gainsight did the same thing with customer success. You're seeing it 355 00:23:00.349 --> 00:23:04.750 over and over again with these SASS companies that are now synonymous with these terms. 356 00:23:04.789 --> 00:23:07.309 I mean you we talked a lot about category creation. We have an 357 00:23:07.349 --> 00:23:14.819 entire category creation series on this show hosted by John Rougie, and it's powerful. 358 00:23:15.059 --> 00:23:18.299 Do you want to speak a little bit to once you've developed that narrative 359 00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:22.779 in that story, where, where have you injected that in the sales process? 360 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:26.529 Everywhere, everywhere I can go. I mean the cold emails are that 361 00:23:26.690 --> 00:23:30.690 story. They're not. They're not like you know, they're like here's a 362 00:23:30.769 --> 00:23:33.930 change. Do you agree? You know, that's the cold email and then 363 00:23:33.930 --> 00:23:38.569 the cold email like first first touch in the second touches, like this change 364 00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:41.480 is going to bring around these threats. Have you seen that? You're for 365 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.000 yourself. And then, like the third emails, then some sort of call 366 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.519 to action, like we've seen customers similar to you accomplish these things. Is 367 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:55.079 that something you'd be interested in? So it's all oriented to that. The 368 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:57.309 marketing is all wear into that. The white papers and the white page is 369 00:23:57.430 --> 00:24:02.549 all that stuff. They're all oriented to that. Got It. So home 370 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:06.789 page of the website, cold emails, your I would imagine, your paid 371 00:24:06.829 --> 00:24:11.299 advertising is aligned to that messaging. It's all cohesive. But if you don't 372 00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:14.619 do the work of actually building that narrative, then you're going to have a 373 00:24:15.259 --> 00:24:19.299 hodge podge, hot podgy collection of stuff that's not singing the same tune. 374 00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:25.490 Okay, so step six. Here we've got prototype to fail and build the 375 00:24:25.529 --> 00:24:30.450 sales process based on ICP. Particularly interested in the prototype to fail. Elaborate 376 00:24:30.529 --> 00:24:33.529 on this idea for us. Yeah, so I got this idea in my 377 00:24:33.650 --> 00:24:37.210 ear very long time ago in art that trying it, and I was selling 378 00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:40.839 to start ups and talking to a lot of technical founders and they always brought 379 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:44.680 up this idea of like, I want to spend two weeks doing something and 380 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.680 find out it doesn't work, then spending two months doing three things and not 381 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:51.960 being sure about any of them. Writing. I want that prototype to film. 382 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:55.589 Mentality, and this kind of goes back to Google's project oxygen and the 383 00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:59.789 whole idea around psychological safety is one of the key attribers of performing team. 384 00:25:00.150 --> 00:25:03.029 It's okay to failures great. No is awesome. Like knowing what not to 385 00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:07.539 do is extremely valuable, especially in the early days of a start up where 386 00:25:07.660 --> 00:25:11.420 there's more questions and answers. So sometimes it's hard to find the right answer 387 00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:14.740 and it's easy to find what the wrong answer is. That's still pretty valuable. 388 00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:17.980 So I always tell my team like, if we're going to do it 389 00:25:18.220 --> 00:25:19.259 or all going to do it together, we're all going to do it for 390 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.890 like two weeks and we're going to do nothing else but that thing and with 391 00:25:23.089 --> 00:25:26.049 that full conviction, we're going to have a really clear answer at the end 392 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:29.769 of it, and it's totally fine if it turns out it wasn't right, 393 00:25:30.009 --> 00:25:33.329 because we only spent two weeks doing it right. It's not a heavy sun 394 00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:37.400 cost and now we can warn everyone that comes after us to never do that 395 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:40.880 thing again. Yes, yeah, so, so how does that then connect 396 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:44.799 to the second part of that, which is building the sales procetest based on 397 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.599 ICP? Yeah, so, once you've got all this information, it should 398 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.829 be really clear what your ideal customer profile should be. Right. We've talked 399 00:25:51.829 --> 00:25:55.509 to customers, we've talked to non customers, we've got a narrative and now 400 00:25:55.549 --> 00:25:59.670 we need to go test that narrative and make sure that those non buyers right. 401 00:25:59.750 --> 00:26:03.509 That target adjustable market. We narrow it down to the ICP and are 402 00:26:03.589 --> 00:26:06.420 they nodding their heads when we tell them the story or they not getting it? 403 00:26:06.700 --> 00:26:10.339 And we got to do it fast and furious, because if it doesn't 404 00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:12.259 work again we're going in full conviction. We got to pivot. then. 405 00:26:12.500 --> 00:26:15.779 What is it? Where did we miss? What? Is there something else 406 00:26:15.819 --> 00:26:18.410 that we weren't thinking about? If it's landing, but not like with the 407 00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:22.569 same impact that we want, like they're not. They're nodding their heads, 408 00:26:22.609 --> 00:26:25.369 but there's kind of like a little bit of disagreement there. Why? What 409 00:26:25.529 --> 00:26:29.529 part of it's not right? So it's getting really aggressive at that stage with 410 00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:34.119 the messaging and going full in to make sure that it actually resonates right and 411 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.799 if it doesn't for whatever reason. You got to get those tweaks and quick 412 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:41.519 because the worst thing to do is like coin of phrase or do all this 413 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:45.720 narrative stuff and have it like have it kind of had people with their head 414 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:51.069 scratching. I mean that's like like you're going to waste so much time doing 415 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:55.269 that. Yep, Yep, you're totally right. And I think because there's 416 00:26:55.269 --> 00:27:00.109 so many people talking about category or creation now, I'm now starting to hear 417 00:27:00.230 --> 00:27:03.380 kind of the the flip side of the coin and other people say that like 418 00:27:03.500 --> 00:27:07.220 hey, category creation isn't for everybody. You everybody shouldn't be trying to figure 419 00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:10.980 out how to coin a phrase, because I'm sure, I'm sure that's coming 420 00:27:11.019 --> 00:27:14.380 from either them trying to do it and it hasn't it hasn't worked out the 421 00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:15.410 way they've done it, or they haven't been willing to pivot. I like 422 00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:21.049 that. You you talk about like it's that prototype to fail mentality, knowing 423 00:27:21.130 --> 00:27:22.930 that like, Hey, we're taking a stab at this, but it might 424 00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:26.769 not be right coming out of the gate. We've got a we've got a 425 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:29.650 have a thesis and then we've got to go talk to a bunch of people 426 00:27:29.769 --> 00:27:33.240 and then validate whether we're on the right track or not, and being that 427 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:36.559 willingness to adjust, I think, is going to be really important. There 428 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:41.559 the steps. This seventh step here is around pricing strategy. Can you talk 429 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.109 to us about this one? Yeah, so, like at this stage right, 430 00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:48.430 if we're doing this right, we're going in hardcore, with full conviction, 431 00:27:48.630 --> 00:27:52.750 with one thing for like a concentrated period. And I say two weeks, 432 00:27:52.750 --> 00:27:53.750 but it doesn't be two weeks in me. If everybody it's different. 433 00:27:53.789 --> 00:27:57.029 So just know that, but two weeks is what I just say. Now 434 00:27:57.190 --> 00:28:00.420 it's like you. If it works, you're going to get engagement. People 435 00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:03.779 are going to want to talk about what the product costs. Naturally, like 436 00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:07.700 they're going to be interested. Okay, you've sold me. I see this 437 00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:10.339 world the way you do, I see the threat the way you do and 438 00:28:10.420 --> 00:28:11.970 I'm interested in the promise line. How do I do it? And the 439 00:28:12.049 --> 00:28:17.970 biggest mistake that I guess startups will do often times is their pricing is based 440 00:28:18.009 --> 00:28:22.410 on their products best interests, not the language of the buyer. And what's 441 00:28:22.450 --> 00:28:27.920 interesting is this idea perceived versus actual value. So actual value is, for 442 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:33.920 example, what my product delivers to you. Perceived value is for example, 443 00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:38.119 you bundle your product in such a way where I can buy certain features as 444 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:42.589 a package that I find valuable but cost nothing to your business. Right. 445 00:28:44.109 --> 00:28:47.829 So, for example, when we sold session replay, I worked in session 446 00:28:47.829 --> 00:28:52.029 replay space. Spending up a second instance for somebody to record further sessions on 447 00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:56.339 their Dev environment cost us nothing, but to our customers that was a perceived 448 00:28:56.380 --> 00:29:00.099 value to be able to have a pricing package that included the ability to have 449 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:04.900 multiple instances. Now, the startup never priced that way, right, because 450 00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:07.900 to us it was like, oh, sure, if you want it, 451 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:10.849 go ahead, but to them they're like, Oh, is it included? 452 00:29:11.049 --> 00:29:14.130 Does it cost extra? I was like wait, if you're willing to pay 453 00:29:14.210 --> 00:29:18.289 for it, I'm willing to bundle you if you think that's valuable. Hey, 454 00:29:18.529 --> 00:29:22.089 yes, I will charge for it. Let's go right. Yeah, 455 00:29:22.569 --> 00:29:25.759 I'm just want to I just want to make you feel like you got value 456 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:27.119 and if that's makes you feel like you got value, then let's do it. 457 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:32.119 Yep, right. Meanwhile, you know, the productor engineering team thinks 458 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:34.359 it's ridiculous because of like what is it? It's just like, you know, 459 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.680 it's our internal little APP and you just, you know, do a 460 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:38.910 little switch and they get another one. I'm like, doesn't matter, they 461 00:29:38.910 --> 00:29:44.150 want to pay two hundred a month for that. Yep. So, yeah, 462 00:29:44.269 --> 00:29:45.589 you know, so let's let them. So you have to put it 463 00:29:45.789 --> 00:29:49.789 in the buyers language, right. Another thing that else is common is, 464 00:29:49.829 --> 00:29:56.099 like people will have their seat types named after like generic things like user Admin, 465 00:29:56.579 --> 00:29:59.339 you know, something like that. It's like name the seats the way 466 00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:02.259 the teams are constructed, at the buyer that you sell to. Like in 467 00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:07.450 our world of wealth advisors, there's financial planners, there's advisors, there's financial 468 00:30:07.450 --> 00:30:10.569 analysts. So guess what our seats are named after? Well, you have 469 00:30:10.650 --> 00:30:14.329 an advisor seat, have a financial planner seat, you have an analyst. 470 00:30:14.849 --> 00:30:18.049 Right now, technically it's just user Admin, but we never we don't use 471 00:30:18.130 --> 00:30:22.119 that language because nobody wants to buy. It doesn't feel customize, it doesn't 472 00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.240 feel like it was a proposal for me when I'm just looking at three admin 473 00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.799 seats and two users. Yes, it feels like you know me when you 474 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:34.319 actually price it based on my team composition. We did a proposal a few 475 00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:40.910 months ago and we we structured the different pricing tiers by different levels of marketing 476 00:30:40.950 --> 00:30:44.789 thought leaders. We obviously sell to marketers. So like you had the Matt 477 00:30:44.829 --> 00:30:48.230 Hinds Package, you had the Gary v package, you had that, and 478 00:30:48.430 --> 00:30:52.259 so we got some really good feedback. We have it applied that pricing across 479 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.099 the board. But it's interesting to hear you say that because I think we 480 00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:57.420 might need to revisit how we people love it. Yeah, to do it's 481 00:30:57.460 --> 00:31:00.339 like, if you know you, makes me feel like it's snow flake. 482 00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:02.859 Yeah, make you feel like it's snow flick. And why wouldn't you want 483 00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:04.650 your bier to feel like the snowflake? I mean exactly. So. So 484 00:31:04.809 --> 00:31:11.569 step eight here is is to implement a codified career growth plan. So again, 485 00:31:11.609 --> 00:31:15.369 where this, this entire action plan is building, you know, the 486 00:31:15.450 --> 00:31:22.240 sales development function within your business or rebuilding it. If you're in a case 487 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:25.960 where they like you, you're stepping into an organization and having to reimagine some 488 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.000 things. So implementing a codified career growth plan. Talk to us about how 489 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.349 you've done that. That's stratified. Yeah, so this is this is probably 490 00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:37.910 so. I got introduced this idea by Tito Board. I Love I love 491 00:31:38.029 --> 00:31:41.430 is content. He has a lot of great thought leadership on sales development and 492 00:31:41.549 --> 00:31:45.750 the reality is we always think about sales of ELM as a steppings into being 493 00:31:45.789 --> 00:31:49.660 in a right, there's a lot of steps that happen in between. And 494 00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:55.220 what if we made a really great way for people just to level up on 495 00:31:55.339 --> 00:32:00.579 their own instead of putting in manager and, you know, business road blocks 496 00:32:00.619 --> 00:32:04.369 of them getting promoted? So why does everything have to be like one or 497 00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:07.049 one or zero? Right, like binary? Yes, you can have an 498 00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:09.490 str level one, two, three and four. So the system I created 499 00:32:09.650 --> 00:32:15.130 was like an apprentice and then you become a full team member and then you 500 00:32:15.289 --> 00:32:19.400 become an expert and then you become a team lead. Right, and you 501 00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:23.160 can grow into those roles and the steps are crystal clear. It's like a 502 00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:27.279 checklist, like you don't need me because you know exactly what you need to 503 00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:30.390 do. Is Step one is like master to tools, master the messaging. 504 00:32:30.829 --> 00:32:35.349 Step two then becomes can you then pass some tests on what we think the 505 00:32:35.549 --> 00:32:38.710 written skill the oral skill are to achieve the numbers that need to be achieved? 506 00:32:39.069 --> 00:32:42.549 You know. Step three then is like can you master the metrics and 507 00:32:42.589 --> 00:32:45.220 numbers, because in sales of moment you're not only learning the product in the 508 00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:49.940 space but also just learning how to be a professional, right, like many 509 00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:52.980 of us take that role very early on in our careers, so we don't 510 00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:54.660 have experience and like what is like to be in a job, like how 511 00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:58.690 do I how do I work in Corporate America? So you're learning a lot 512 00:32:58.730 --> 00:33:02.769 of things that once map that just like write those steps clearly so that people 513 00:33:02.809 --> 00:33:06.769 can do them, like a checklist. And what's beautiful about this is that 514 00:33:07.210 --> 00:33:10.049 in the companies I've implemented this in, I have SDR's coming up to need 515 00:33:10.089 --> 00:33:13.559 telling me, hey, I just got promoted, Hey, I just finished 516 00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:17.240 my checklist, right, because it's all written down there's it's all. It's 517 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:21.960 all trackable, either like an LMS system or wherever, a sawn or whatever 518 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.759 you use, or trail based on testing that you've developed. So if they 519 00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:30.630 backtly nest, they get promoted exactly exactly and they're excited and it's in their 520 00:33:30.710 --> 00:33:34.150 control. It's like you own this, there's no timeline on it. You 521 00:33:34.230 --> 00:33:36.630 want to take you want to spend a your hear. Yeah, it's not 522 00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:39.950 contingent on a bias that their boss has towards them, because it's yeah, 523 00:33:39.990 --> 00:33:44.140 I love that, it's completely in their control. Yes, yes, so 524 00:33:44.660 --> 00:33:46.940 beautiful system, a highly recommended for anybody out there thinking of a way to 525 00:33:47.059 --> 00:33:51.460 make it really motivating for strs just to come in every day and be excited 526 00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:53.259 about what they're doing. And each step has a change, right. You're 527 00:33:53.259 --> 00:33:58.569 getting a title change as to our level on two three sire growing and experience. 528 00:33:58.970 --> 00:34:02.089 You're also potentially getting a bump in pay between each level and your base 529 00:34:02.210 --> 00:34:06.170 pay, or maybe your payout or both. And then, as well, 530 00:34:06.450 --> 00:34:09.639 you're getting more authority within the team, right, because you know an expert 531 00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:15.360 on the team can change the messaging. They have a they have the right, 532 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:19.079 they've earned the right to be able to test messaging and be rewarded if 533 00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.239 they improve the messaging, while an apprentice as to sit there and learn it. 534 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:23.789 Right, it's like you don't get an opinion. Yet you got it. 535 00:34:23.829 --> 00:34:27.190 You got to reach a certain level before you stay given us your opinion. 536 00:34:27.670 --> 00:34:30.829 We want you to respect the process in the flow. So it's a 537 00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:32.949 really it's a really great can you walk through those one more time below, 538 00:34:34.190 --> 00:34:37.900 just what the phases are and and what qualifications are to get to the next 539 00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:43.699 phase? Yes, and and I have. I have a generic, codified 540 00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:47.179 career growth plan, both in the depth of left community on bravado and on 541 00:34:47.300 --> 00:34:51.619 my profile and Linkedin. So if anybody wants to see one, there's a 542 00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:53.449 there's one. It's free. You could download it. You could see the 543 00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:57.489 exact step by step way. I call it the str bed, your career 544 00:34:57.610 --> 00:35:00.409 growth plan. But the the initial steps are prey very simple. So I 545 00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:02.650 like to think of it you can as a many steps as you want. 546 00:35:02.650 --> 00:35:07.199 I like to think about just having for for basic steps. So Level one 547 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.159 is the apprentice. Right you come in your new you're going to be expected 548 00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:15.159 to learn how we craft emails, learn the script that we have for you 549 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:19.360 and be able to master the tools before you write, like whether you use 550 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:22.309 a navigator, whether you have fills off or outreach, whatever your text. 551 00:35:22.389 --> 00:35:25.550 That is being master of those things right. The next level, we call 552 00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:29.909 it like a professional rights, and now you've graduated from my apprentice and pressional 553 00:35:29.949 --> 00:35:34.429 on the team. You've kind of passed the ramp period. Now you're able 554 00:35:34.630 --> 00:35:37.260 to make calls on your own, send emails on your own without having anybody 555 00:35:37.699 --> 00:35:42.019 over your shoulder making sure it's good. You should be at this point ready 556 00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:45.900 to read some more advanced material like winning by design. I love their material 557 00:35:46.179 --> 00:35:52.289 on Sass sales Dr Tldni, six influencers, fantastic. Even like Andy Raskin's 558 00:35:52.329 --> 00:35:54.769 works on how to do a narrative pitch, you should be in a better 559 00:35:54.849 --> 00:35:59.730 mindset to to take that material to the next level. After that you become 560 00:35:59.769 --> 00:36:02.050 an expert. So now you're at the third level. Now you're given real 561 00:36:02.090 --> 00:36:07.559 autonomy, right, like you can you can go forth and change the material. 562 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.440 In fact, you'll be rewarded if the content, if the emails at 563 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:15.920 the script, get better and we can measure an improvement from the suggestions that 564 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.909 you make. At this point as well, I expect an str bedr to 565 00:36:19.949 --> 00:36:23.269 be getting certifications on their own. Like learn about the open courses that are 566 00:36:23.309 --> 00:36:28.869 out there and be eager to jump into those full steam, right. And 567 00:36:28.989 --> 00:36:31.030 then the final levels. Like a team leader, at this point you've mature 568 00:36:31.230 --> 00:36:36.380 to the to the top level. You're the authority and fact there are apprentices 569 00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:39.500 that are under your guidance and wisdom, right, that you train and that 570 00:36:39.619 --> 00:36:43.659 you manage, and this is a launching point for your career. Right, 571 00:36:43.739 --> 00:36:47.610 like you can remain in str and be a top earner on the team and 572 00:36:47.809 --> 00:36:52.170 half sort of the best pay and the best payout you could become an a 573 00:36:52.250 --> 00:36:54.690 e can become a manager. You might be exposed to other teams or maybe 574 00:36:54.769 --> 00:36:59.010 this is a jumping point where you even leave the company, and that's okay, 575 00:36:59.449 --> 00:37:01.119 right, we can. We can talk about that transition and be open 576 00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:04.039 to it, because we all know we're not going to live and die, 577 00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.719 you know, at the same company. We just saw how it works. 578 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.639 Yep, I love that. I love how you've clearly explained broken down those 579 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:16.710 levels in a way that the SDR, the BDR can feel ownership over their 580 00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:22.550 career growth and not have to be contingent on someone kind of dubbing them ready 581 00:37:22.670 --> 00:37:27.590 to go to the next step. It'sself driven and and they can completely own 582 00:37:27.630 --> 00:37:30.340 it. So I love that you broke that down for us right there. 583 00:37:30.619 --> 00:37:34.340 The last step in this process, so this this step nine in this action 584 00:37:34.460 --> 00:37:38.699 plan, is to optimize and automate with a killer tex stack. Talk to 585 00:37:38.739 --> 00:37:42.579 us about this and what this is looked like for you guys at stratified. 586 00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:45.929 Yeah, so this is this is an interesting point because early in my sales 587 00:37:46.010 --> 00:37:50.329 career, and I'll let me be open with all the listeners here, tactically 588 00:37:50.489 --> 00:37:53.090 I'm a pretty bad seller, believe it or not, like the tactics. 589 00:37:53.329 --> 00:37:59.880 I know people who are incredible, consummate professional sellers that just blow me out 590 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:04.760 of the water when it comes to their tactical understanding of sales. But one 591 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:07.440 thing that I do that very few sellers did very early on my career and 592 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:12.119 just off for my career, is I work the heck out of my tech. 593 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.710 Whatever, whatever product I'm given, I'm going to squeeze every bit of 594 00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:19.389 juice out of it, because the reality is you can take an average seller 595 00:38:19.750 --> 00:38:24.710 that fully understands their technology and they will absolutely outproduced an amazing seller that doesn't 596 00:38:24.710 --> 00:38:29.340 use tech, because we are the bottleneck. When you get right down to 597 00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:34.579 it. The seller's time is the ultimate bottleneck to your success and if there's 598 00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.820 a tool that can make you one point, five to x your normal self 599 00:38:37.500 --> 00:38:42.730 and you're not using it fully right, you're going to get past just letting 600 00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:45.369 you know it, get get passed by people like me who aren't as good 601 00:38:45.809 --> 00:38:47.650 but we just know how to use the tech. Yeah, so at this 602 00:38:47.849 --> 00:38:52.449 stage usually it's like, okay, we've got that story, we're delivering, 603 00:38:52.530 --> 00:38:57.639 our pricing seems to make sense and now we need to turn the faucet off. 604 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.400 I mean it's time to go all in right, calendars flooded with meetings, 605 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:05.360 cold calling, sessions, whatever we got to do to make it all 606 00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.639 happen. How we got to manage that flow. Where's the tipping point where 607 00:39:09.190 --> 00:39:14.110 you, as a seller start dropping the ball? Is it's seventy opportunities? 608 00:39:14.230 --> 00:39:15.829 Is a fifty? Is it a hundred? Where is it? And can 609 00:39:15.989 --> 00:39:22.150 a text act increase that, increase our capacity? Right like I can't imagine 610 00:39:22.190 --> 00:39:27.019 an inside sales team not having sales off or outreacher some tool like that in 611 00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:29.500 today's Day and age. Right like we can't do it because we know what 612 00:39:29.619 --> 00:39:32.300 it was like before and now, with this thing, we are just ten 613 00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:36.739 times as sellers we were. Yeah, so can you walk us through? 614 00:39:36.739 --> 00:39:40.250 You mentioned sales off, you know, sales aloft or outreach. You've referred 615 00:39:40.289 --> 00:39:44.170 to going in the past. Maybe that's part of this, maybe it's not. 616 00:39:44.650 --> 00:39:47.849 What's kind of the kind of the baseline that that you think? What 617 00:39:47.969 --> 00:39:52.639 should sales text act look like in any inside sales team, at least for 618 00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:58.599 starters? Yeah, and there's a lot of ways to be to be hacky 619 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:00.840 right, to do things in a hackey way. I think you need some 620 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:07.110 video prospecting like social media right now, Linkedin, it's so easy to connect 621 00:40:07.110 --> 00:40:10.469 with somebody and mess up that connection with like a hard pitch. Right. 622 00:40:10.989 --> 00:40:15.070 So why wouldn't you have something like Whiskey, are hippo video or like all 623 00:40:15.110 --> 00:40:17.869 the other ones that are out there? Drift now has a video product, 624 00:40:19.150 --> 00:40:22.380 and Bombomb, I think, yeah, bombomb, right, it just whatever 625 00:40:22.420 --> 00:40:24.739 it is, whatever you decide to choose, but get one. Just make 626 00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:29.900 sure you get one and right when that connection happens, send them a personalized 627 00:40:29.900 --> 00:40:32.179 video. Right. Just say high to them. Let them see your face, 628 00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:35.340 let them hear a voice, let them though you're a person. You 629 00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:37.929 don't need to pitch them anything, but just tell them. You know what, 630 00:40:37.369 --> 00:40:39.650 we just got a lot of customers that look like you and it just 631 00:40:39.650 --> 00:40:45.090 seemed to make sense introduce myself. I'm glad we're connected. Right, you're 632 00:40:45.090 --> 00:40:49.849 already oh, just by doing that way different than the majority of sellers out 633 00:40:49.849 --> 00:40:52.800 there. Right. So, you know, there's got to be some video 634 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:54.360 component in there. There's a lot of ways to do that. There's got 635 00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:58.599 to be some sort of sales enablement tool to be able to do the outreach. 636 00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:00.599 I just think in today's day and h too, it's crazy not to 637 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:06.269 have some sort of predictive dialer or something that can. You know, the 638 00:41:06.309 --> 00:41:08.590 last thing you need is a rep sitting there doing like monkey work, pressing 639 00:41:08.710 --> 00:41:12.750 like the dials on the phone. Right. There should be a predictive dialer 640 00:41:12.789 --> 00:41:15.269 that can call two, thirty four process at the same time and when one 641 00:41:15.309 --> 00:41:19.420 actually picks up, just transfers you straight to that person. Is that like 642 00:41:19.539 --> 00:41:23.659 a connecting cell or could you share some offs connect and sell or um connect 643 00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:28.940 leader closed out io has a predictive dialer. Like there's a bunch of products 644 00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:31.179 out there, but you got to have one in today's Day and age because, 645 00:41:31.179 --> 00:41:35.610 again, if I'm using that and another seller isn't, I can do 646 00:41:35.690 --> 00:41:39.369 a hundred dials in an hour, right and have my three conversations while that 647 00:41:39.449 --> 00:41:43.769 person over there's doing one, fifteen, twenty. Yeah, trying to keep 648 00:41:43.769 --> 00:41:46.320 up. Yeah. So, so we've talked about video that. Could you 649 00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:51.119 shared some tools? They're talked about a sales enablement, something that allows you 650 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:54.440 to send those emails. So touch on outreach, sales offt I think mix 651 00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:58.760 Max is in the is in the exacts and the Vanilla soft is in their 652 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.630 soft is in there. What was that third one that you predictive dialer, 653 00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:07.590 particularly to give dialing, so connecting kinnel cell, Yep and anything else that 654 00:42:07.670 --> 00:42:09.550 you think. Man, this is this is essential in terms of sales. 655 00:42:09.590 --> 00:42:14.989 Texact. I think nowadays as well, it's getting harder and harder to not 656 00:42:15.150 --> 00:42:21.059 have a proposal tool, something like proposed by or and a doc exactly. 657 00:42:21.739 --> 00:42:25.139 You know, those sort of products docks and you know you want to automate 658 00:42:25.260 --> 00:42:29.659 as much of the sales function as possible. I just I don't want to 659 00:42:29.699 --> 00:42:34.170 put any cognitive load on my sales team when it comes to process. I 660 00:42:34.289 --> 00:42:37.010 want to put the cognitive love on them when it comes to the deals. 661 00:42:37.289 --> 00:42:42.050 Right, like the process needs to just be so easy that I could literally, 662 00:42:42.170 --> 00:42:44.360 you know, my wife, who's never done sales, could walk in 663 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:46.840 and send a proposal right. She might not stuck at close a deal, 664 00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:50.840 but she could just send it because the templates are there, she knows how 665 00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:52.719 to fill in the blanks and it's just a send process, right. So 666 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:54.920 you got to have something like that. And of course then a lot of 667 00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:59.909 those products will include some sort of autosignature. But if you want to do 668 00:43:00.030 --> 00:43:02.070 something separate like docu sign, hello sign, all those sort of products, 669 00:43:02.110 --> 00:43:06.789 but like that's the to me, the basis of a good text act. 670 00:43:07.230 --> 00:43:09.349 And again, you know you can go you can get creative from bear. 671 00:43:09.349 --> 00:43:12.630 There's a lot of cool products out there now, I think, in sales 672 00:43:12.630 --> 00:43:15.219 enablement. But at the very least you got to have those elements. I 673 00:43:15.340 --> 00:43:19.739 love it wonderful. So I've got I've got a few questions for you that 674 00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:22.179 I think are going to that are going to add just add more value to 675 00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:25.500 this conversation. So the the nine step action plan, I think, is 676 00:43:25.500 --> 00:43:29.969 incredibly helpful. But I want to jam with you a little bit just on 677 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:34.449 some other ancillary sales development topics, because I think just based on what I've 678 00:43:34.449 --> 00:43:36.730 seen you put on linked and I'm curious to hear your take on this. 679 00:43:36.849 --> 00:43:40.840 So what's a common belief about sales development right now that you just passionately disagree 680 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:46.079 with? Yeah, you know, there's a few. Big One. I 681 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:50.960 think I hinted on it earlier with this idea that that the str role should 682 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.079 be a turnover rule, that it's acceptable for it to be a high turnover 683 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:58.630 rule, that that's just fundamentally flawed. I mean it can be if you 684 00:43:58.710 --> 00:44:01.309 do it wrong. Any role can be right, but but the reality is 685 00:44:01.869 --> 00:44:07.269 if you create a rewarding, compelling, autonomous environment where people feel like they're 686 00:44:07.269 --> 00:44:09.340 gaining mastery and their job, they're going to want to do the job, 687 00:44:09.820 --> 00:44:13.380 they're going to want it, they're going to enjoy coming in every day and 688 00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:15.420 doing it. Now, I don't expect a company to have, you know, 689 00:44:15.619 --> 00:44:19.260 SDRs that have been in that role for ten years and not saying that, 690 00:44:19.659 --> 00:44:22.539 but this idea that, like an str will stay in that role for 691 00:44:22.659 --> 00:44:25.090 nine months Max and then needs to move on. But we can increase that 692 00:44:25.210 --> 00:44:31.130 time horizon by just being better as a as sellers, with culture that isn't 693 00:44:31.170 --> 00:44:36.489 based on winning but is based on moral values. Right, because winning is 694 00:44:36.570 --> 00:44:38.960 an outcome. And guess what? All these sales teams right now aren't winning. 695 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:42.400 Well, unless you work at zoom, but, like the rest of 696 00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.679 us, aren't winning right now. So if your culture is based on winning, 697 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.559 it just kind of chattered. But if your code, culture is based 698 00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:52.429 on moral values and doing the right thing, it's still there. It's in 699 00:44:52.590 --> 00:44:57.309 fact, it's shining right now. We've been trying to think through a different 700 00:44:57.349 --> 00:45:01.469 function within our team with we're starting an intern program and the default is to 701 00:45:01.550 --> 00:45:05.510 think that, oh, you know, this intern program they're not going to 702 00:45:05.590 --> 00:45:07.900 stick around for very long. But as we thought more critically about you know, 703 00:45:08.059 --> 00:45:12.099 how could we get them to stick around longer? If we invested in 704 00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:15.500 their development? Maybe we made a some sort of a program that they could 705 00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:19.460 graduate from. So in the six months, maybe we can hold on to 706 00:45:19.539 --> 00:45:22.250 them for six months instead of three months if we make it a sixmonth and 707 00:45:22.369 --> 00:45:25.929 of Marketing Development Program. So they love that. You how to write, 708 00:45:27.210 --> 00:45:30.010 how to write it for the Internet, and they we come up with the 709 00:45:30.050 --> 00:45:32.570 curriculum to walk them through and at the end of it they can put on 710 00:45:32.610 --> 00:45:37.400 the resume that they're a graduate of the sweet fish, you know, modern 711 00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:42.800 marketing them program like that. That kind of thinking gets you thinking, how 712 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:46.119 can I truly add value to this person? And it goes back to culture, 713 00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:50.989 like our number one value is love people. Well, our second one 714 00:45:51.110 --> 00:45:53.510 is never stopped learning and then our third one is own the result. And 715 00:45:53.550 --> 00:45:57.869 so when you're thinking how can we integrate our values into something like this, 716 00:45:58.469 --> 00:46:04.030 you start asking yourself better questions and you start being able to actually retain your 717 00:46:04.110 --> 00:46:08.860 talent longer, because if your values really are an extension of your heart, 718 00:46:09.380 --> 00:46:14.260 then then people are going to resonate with that. That's much stickier than just 719 00:46:14.739 --> 00:46:17.650 win win when like hit your number, and so I love that you brought 720 00:46:17.650 --> 00:46:22.130 that up. I think that's I think that's love that. That's a great 721 00:46:22.289 --> 00:46:24.210 idea. With like the resume thing. To Man, I wish I had 722 00:46:24.250 --> 00:46:27.690 that one. I was an intern, like my flights are just did that. 723 00:46:28.050 --> 00:46:30.769 Yeah, it's and it's something they can I was talking about it with 724 00:46:30.929 --> 00:46:32.000 with Timmy on our team the other day and he was just like man, 725 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:37.239 something that what we need to we need to talk to talk to these interns 726 00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.719 and figure out like what would actually be valuable to you. And it just 727 00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:44.960 kind of spawned out of like Oh, they they're looking, they're early in 728 00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:47.190 their career, they're looking to add something to their resume and to be able 729 00:46:47.190 --> 00:46:51.309 to say they are graduate of a program. That's what Disney does, I 730 00:46:51.389 --> 00:46:54.030 mean that's what the Disney internship program does. And and he happened to go 731 00:46:54.150 --> 00:46:57.630 through that program. He's like yeah, they call him graduates too. So, 732 00:46:58.269 --> 00:47:00.460 so, looking at what other people are doing and I just like the 733 00:47:00.539 --> 00:47:05.739 thinking of challenging the fact that this role doesn't have to be a churn and 734 00:47:05.860 --> 00:47:10.139 burn role. Like if you really invest in in those people and develop them, 735 00:47:10.659 --> 00:47:14.340 then they're going to want US stick around for a while. And why? 736 00:47:14.420 --> 00:47:19.170 I love having heard that, into four different like there's four different finish 737 00:47:19.250 --> 00:47:22.050 lines. Basically, it's not just okay, I'm done being asked, you 738 00:47:22.090 --> 00:47:25.090 are ready to be an ae like, if people are experiencing growth within that 739 00:47:25.210 --> 00:47:29.650 role, it only make sense that they're going to that they're going to stay 740 00:47:29.730 --> 00:47:34.400 longer. So this next question. What are some of the most common mistakes 741 00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:39.360 will that you see sales leaders making when it comes to sales development? You 742 00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:45.989 know, it's it's interesting because everyone's trying to I think it I think it 743 00:47:45.030 --> 00:47:49.949 goes back to I've never met a sales leader that didn't claim that their sales 744 00:47:49.949 --> 00:47:52.150 seema's metric driven or data driven. Right, like who comes out? It's 745 00:47:52.190 --> 00:47:54.710 like no, we don't care about that. I here, we're just we're 746 00:47:54.750 --> 00:47:58.980 just wing it. But of course we know that we're not all data Drivan, 747 00:47:59.059 --> 00:48:01.579 like the whole world isn't, you know, running efficiently right, otherwise 748 00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:05.579 I think would be in a very different world. So you know, it's 749 00:48:05.619 --> 00:48:08.380 just not true. And and I think one of the things that that sales 750 00:48:08.420 --> 00:48:12.500 leaders make as a common stake because that they assume that, if they track 751 00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:19.050 activity outputs, that that's data driven, which is just like so basic right, 752 00:48:19.210 --> 00:48:22.329 like it's like, yeah, you're doing arithmetic. I'm trying to are 753 00:48:22.369 --> 00:48:23.849 do do Algebra, you know, I mean like this, this, you're 754 00:48:23.889 --> 00:48:28.400 not. That's just the start. The start is how much people do, 755 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:35.079 right, but efficiency matters. Like, for every for every voicemail you leave 756 00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:38.800 that doesn't get heard, there was someone's time behind that. Right, for 757 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:43.989 every email that you sent out that didn't get a response, did you create 758 00:48:44.150 --> 00:48:47.590 negative sentiment because of that? Right, it's just so many things to think 759 00:48:47.590 --> 00:48:52.309 about when you actually get tactically into it. That's just like. Activity is 760 00:48:52.469 --> 00:48:55.300 just the start. It's the beginning, and efficiency is what matters. I 761 00:48:55.420 --> 00:49:00.780 want sellers that get the job done with the least amount of work possible. 762 00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:04.420 I love that. That's what I want. I don't want to hear about 763 00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:07.059 the hard work. I don't want you to staying glate and slamming another extra 764 00:49:07.059 --> 00:49:12.650 hundred calls. Gracious why? Something's horribly wrong. You're having to like beat 765 00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:15.329 your head against all. They get the job done. We are not efficient. 766 00:49:15.369 --> 00:49:19.809 Right. That's not how hypergrowth works. If you study hypergrowth, the 767 00:49:20.010 --> 00:49:25.079 science behind it is efficiency, its stability to scale with limited sources. Right, 768 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:30.440 you're not going to do that by just like dialing for dollars and, 769 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:32.320 you know, throwing stuff on the wall and see what sticks. That untell 770 00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:36.760 be so wrong. But again, you look at the data that these sales 771 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:39.670 leaders care about and it's like the basics, it's like table sticks, not 772 00:49:39.829 --> 00:49:44.230 the stuff that actually matters below. Who are some of the people? You 773 00:49:44.429 --> 00:49:46.670 refer to Tito Board earlier. Who are some of the other people that you're 774 00:49:46.670 --> 00:49:51.269 learning a lot from as it relates to sales development? I Love I love 775 00:49:51.309 --> 00:49:53.940 Jack Ravanaki, like winning by design of all our stuff, Tito board. 776 00:49:54.059 --> 00:49:58.099 A lot of his contents are really, really strong. I Love Todd Capony 777 00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:01.179 in the transparency sale and the stuff that he talks about, because it's really, 778 00:50:01.219 --> 00:50:05.179 really good things. Those are some of the top names off by head, 779 00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:08.090 unless see if there's any others. I make everybody read the six influencers, 780 00:50:08.170 --> 00:50:13.130 the psychology persuasion by by Dr Kildd like that's like you have to know 781 00:50:13.250 --> 00:50:15.690 that to be on my team because you're not going to understand what I'm saying 782 00:50:15.690 --> 00:50:20.369 if you don't read that. So I literally summarize the book because I just 783 00:50:20.449 --> 00:50:22.719 didn't expect people to read the book because I'm like, it's not going to 784 00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:24.760 happen. So I literally summarize a book in the like one page or like 785 00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:28.639 a video that I've made, and I just every sales team I had. 786 00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:30.719 I make them all watching and read it like they want. But I love 787 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:36.949 that of that. This has been incredible. Below seriously, you've broughtten so 788 00:50:37.030 --> 00:50:39.949 much value on this episode. If somebody's listening to this, they want to 789 00:50:39.949 --> 00:50:44.309 stay connected with you, what's the best place for them to do that? 790 00:50:44.949 --> 00:50:49.389 It would be joined the bravado death of fluff community. You know, we're 791 00:50:49.389 --> 00:50:52.340 pretty active in there. It's seven hundred people strong and we're trying to build 792 00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:55.739 a coalition of likeminded people. I get it. I want to do and 793 00:50:55.820 --> 00:51:00.059 see these things implemented either their businesses or their sales teams. And then the 794 00:51:00.139 --> 00:51:04.369 other place be just on Linkedin. For sure, like add me there. 795 00:51:04.969 --> 00:51:07.530 This is the stuff I pust about every single day. Some of it hit, 796 00:51:07.769 --> 00:51:12.449 some of it's miss, but it's there every day for you. I 797 00:51:12.570 --> 00:51:15.650 can testify to the fact that I see your stuff pop up and and all 798 00:51:15.730 --> 00:51:19.840 the stuff I'm seeing that's getting to my news feed is stuff that I am 799 00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:22.440 really aligned with and I think you're think you're saying a lot of things a 800 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:28.559 lot of people are thinking and they're not necessarily bold enough to say it because 801 00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:30.800 it's different and it's counter to how how a lot of us, you know, 802 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:34.789 are are, have been trained in hardwired to think about this stuff. 803 00:51:35.590 --> 00:51:38.510 But if you enjoy this episode, you're definitely going to want to follow billow 804 00:51:38.750 --> 00:51:44.070 on Linkedin because he's dropping fire pretty much every day. They're so and thank 805 00:51:44.110 --> 00:51:45.909 you so much for your time today. This has been incredible and I really 806 00:51:45.949 --> 00:51:49.420 appreciate it. Blackwise, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. James, 807 00:51:49.460 --> 00:51:57.139 I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I 808 00:51:57.179 --> 00:52:00.860 get why they do it, because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to 809 00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:04.170 grow a podcast audience. So here's what we decided to do. If you 810 00:52:04.329 --> 00:52:07.769 leave a review for me to be growth and apple podcasts and email me a 811 00:52:07.849 --> 00:52:12.050 screenshot of the review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a 812 00:52:12.210 --> 00:52:15.199 signed copy of my new book, content based networking, how to instantly connect 813 00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:19.159 with anyone you want to know. We get a review, you get a 814 00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:20.599 free book. We both win