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Aug. 12, 2022

The 4 Pillars of Thought Leadership Your SME's Must Have

In this replay episode, Dan Sanchez talks to Ashley Faus about her entire thought leadership process as the Content Strategy Lead at Atlassian .

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B2B Growth
In this replay episode, Dan Sanchez talks to Ashley Faus about her entire thought leadership process as the Content Strategy Lead at Atlassian .
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.600 Today on B two B growth, we are sharing a featured conversation from our 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:08.519 archive, with over two thousand episodes released. We want to resurface episodes worth 3 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:12.039 another listen. Before we jump in, I just want to say I would 4 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:14.919 love to connect and hear from you on Linkedin. You can search Benji, 5 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.199 walk over there and that's a great place to also interact with sweet fish and 6 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:23.039 B two B growth. All right, let's jump into today's featured conversation, 7 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:36.280 conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 8 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.799 Welcome back to BTB growth. I'm Dan Sanchez, my friends call me Dan 9 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:47.920 Chaz, and I'm here with Ashley Faz who is the content strategy lead at 10 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.960 at last seen. Ashley, welcome to the show. Hey, good to 11 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:55.079 be here. So today we are diving into thought leadership again, because that 12 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.479 is the series that we're on. That's the deep dive we're doing in the 13 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:02.600 month of June. If you're just jumping into this episode, maybe it's your 14 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:06.480 first time listening, but we like to do a deep dive every other month 15 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:11.239 and this time I was especially excited about doing thought leadership. It's a topic 16 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:15.439 that I got into probably just a year ago and I've been reading everything I 17 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.799 can about it. I've almost read every book and now I'm excited to talk 18 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:22.280 to all the practitioners out there, that people who get to do this for 19 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.680 a living, whether they're authors or people like Ashley who are in the thick 20 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:32.400 of it at Lastie and creating thought leadership content day in, day out orchestrating 21 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.680 the programs. So I have some very exciting things that I've was just talking 22 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:40.079 to Ashley about and kind of the pre call era area of this show in 23 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:44.439 order to kick off today's episode. But before we do actually, I'd love 24 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:47.640 to know a little bit more about how you got into thought leadership, like 25 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:51.680 how did your journey evolve in marketing to land in a place where you're coming 26 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:57.040 up with thought leadership content all the time? Yeah, so I started and 27 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.000 have have had a number of kind of marketing Jo real list roles at a 28 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:05.000 bunch of small companies, and so because of that I've been tasked with creating 29 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:07.439 a variety of different types of content. I've been kind of the voice of 30 00:02:07.520 --> 00:02:12.759 the day to day person behind a CEO's twitter account and a company twitter account 31 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.400 and a variety of executive twitter accounts for example, Um thinking about how do 32 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.680 we market books from these people? Okay, how do we translate that and 33 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.319 make a connection between a product or service and the thought leadership? Well, 34 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.439 that's a lot easier to do if I'm also close to the thought leadership content 35 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:34.719 and kind of the original ideas that fueled those seminal works. So I ended 36 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.879 up in it more out of a necessity that, hey, I'm doing a 37 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.800 lot of these fragmented pieces. So how do I bring all those pieces together 38 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:46.360 into a cohesive program and a cohesive strategy? And was there something about thought 39 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.719 leadership content I drew you into making that kind of content? There's lots of 40 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.840 different types of content that can be made right. There's customer stories, there's 41 00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:00.680 asking prospectives, buyers questions and answering them right. There's up with related categories 42 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.439 that your customers like to hear about, you know. So how was thought 43 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:08.000 leadership the thing that kicked it off so early? Early, even when I 44 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:12.759 was getting my undergraduate degree, I was like I never want to sell anything 45 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.879 to anybody, and that sounds counterintuitive for a marketer, right. Like I 46 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:19.639 think as a marketer or my job is to match problems and solutions, not 47 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:21.960 to sell you something that you don't need. So if I don't have a 48 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.360 solution for you, then I should not trick you into buying something. And 49 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:29.159 so when you look at a lot of fault leadership content, Um and you 50 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.759 think about this, you know how how that works. It's really about building 51 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:38.960 relationships and building trust, and so that dovetails really nicely with kind of my 52 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:40.680 values of I don't want to sell anything to anybody. Now, yes, 53 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:46.159 there are often products stories or service stories or company stories that get included in 54 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:51.319 those things. But when you think about teaching people and empowering people to solve 55 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.680 problems, the type of content that that tends to be generally as more thought 56 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:59.560 leadership content versus, you know, sales enablement or a case study from a 57 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:02.400 specific a customer or something like that. It's interesting. I can almost go 58 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:06.520 into a whole another topic around why you don't want to sell anything. I'm 59 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:10.120 like, oh my gosh, did she just say that out loud on a 60 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.960 marketing podcast? I don't know if you're allowed to say it. That's all 61 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:18.079 another episode, but I kind of get it. Like thought leadership content often 62 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:23.319 doesn't sell and shouldn't sell. It's definitely on the branding side, trying to 63 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.279 create a perception of the company right, usually to create, you know, 64 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.920 demand, to try to get people interested in who you are and your thoughts 65 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.720 right. That lead to sales eventually, which is a big part of setting 66 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:38.000 up the sale. So we're still driving back to sales, even if you 67 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:41.160 don't like to make it yourself. But I don't know, maybe maybe you 68 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:44.600 should that. I don't know. Well, and it's it's interesting. I 69 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.519 mean I think that buyers are so much smarter these days and they can do 70 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:54.560 so much more of their research without marketers kind of jumping in and trying to 71 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.279 tackle them. And so if you put the content out there, you make 72 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.120 it available and you you treat audience as if they're intelligent, that's gonna that's 73 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.920 gonna increase your sales cycle by the time they finally raise their hand and say 74 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:09.240 hey, I'm actually reading you by Um, that's going to close your sales 75 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.680 a lot faster, it's going to give you a better retention, all those 76 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:15.199 things. So again, if you actually did the statement, it's maybe not 77 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.120 as controversial. Do you want to do mark you want to do marketing so 78 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.639 good that people are just like take my money right, you don't have to 79 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:26.480 convince some of anything. They're just like just please, help me, like 80 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.120 I want you with me way more than I want this money right now. 81 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.839 Exactly. That's IT, exactly. It's still always get sales too. I 82 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.560 think good sales people would say the same thing, that they're there are servants 83 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.879 helping them and if they happen to you know, if it happens to be 84 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.199 a good fit, then they're just gonna say like well, yeah, let's 85 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:48.279 move forward right. So I think it's a good marketing sales principle. So 86 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:54.560 when you're setting up thought leadership content, who do you usually like to build 87 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.199 thought leadership around? Do you like to build it around a logo? Do 88 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:00.079 you like to build around a person? If if a person, who in 89 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:04.120 the company do you like to position as the thought leader? Yeah, so 90 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.240 I think my kind of hot take on this is that actually a lot of 91 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:13.199 people focus on the C suite or exacts or founders, and in a lot 92 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:16.519 of cases I would argue that those people are actually pretty terrible thought leaders for 93 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:23.360 a couple of reasons. They don't have time to do actual work in terms 94 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:27.199 of the innovation and codifying it and sharing it and making it repeatable, and 95 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:30.639 then they also don't have time to share that work. So I have kind 96 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.879 of a thought leadership framework. It's got four pillars. Credibility, build a 97 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:41.560 profile, be prolific, and depth of ideas and CEOS and kind of exacts 98 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:46.759 and founders. The thing that they tend to have is basically just a fancy 99 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.199 title, and so in some cases like Oh, you're credible because you have 100 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:54.439 a fancy title, but if you look at the recent edlement trust barometer you 101 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:59.160 see that actually CEOS are some of the most untrusted people and, like spokespeople 102 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:00.360 in general, be ation' is like, well, of course you would say 103 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:03.519 that. You're literally the CEO of the company, like you're paid to say 104 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:08.040 that. And so even if it's something that doesn't directly sell, there's still 105 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.319 this perception that they're not trustworthy and maybe they're not as credible. Right. 106 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:15.639 And then, from a profile standpoint, you know they're off running the company. 107 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.040 They don't really have time to go out and speak or write or beyond 108 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:23.079 social media. From a depth of ideas standpoint, they're not particularly close to 109 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:27.000 the work Um. They're getting pitched ideas all day every day. They're doing 110 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.600 budget allocations, they're having to go defend things to the board, they're not 111 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.759 actually close to the work and kind of what's changing on the forefront. And 112 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:38.160 then in terms of obviously, you know, being prolific and building a profile, 113 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:42.480 like those things go hand in hand. You can't you can't get followers, 114 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.040 which would make you a leader, if you're not being prolific, you 115 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:49.399 know, and giving those followers something to consume. So I would say I 116 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:54.480 would probably focus more on kind of practitioners that are in that like ten to 117 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:59.120 fifteen years of experience. Um, I do think there's kind of two paths 118 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.279 to creating this to you can either build a person or you can build a 119 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.439 story, and I think those both have pros and cons to them. Um, 120 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:07.000 that we can talk about obviously as we as we dig into this. 121 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.360 I loved a lot of things you just said and I want to circle back 122 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.079 around to your your kind of four step process, but before I do, 123 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.160 I just want to concur that I've I've interviewed a lot of marketers for this 124 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.319 show, some of which are CEOS, and I do find that CEOS are 125 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.839 kind of disconnected from the work, even if they were marketers at one point, 126 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:28.920 they're just not in it anymore. Some are. I've met that I'm 127 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:31.360 like wow, like, no, he's still got it, she's still got 128 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:37.279 it, but most of them are disconnected from the work and honestly promoting their 129 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.159 own company more than like the actual topic. Um. So actually don't take 130 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.759 request from CEOS for this show anymore. If they're if you still hear a 131 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.679 lot of CEOS, and it's usually because we're reaching out to them versus them 132 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:50.440 reaching out to us. Sorry if I offended any CEOS, but of course 133 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:52.200 this is a B two B marketing, so should we like to talk to 134 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.200 B Two B marketers? So I'm in agreement with you. I'm like, 135 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:58.879 I could see that, Um, and of course it makes sense if you're 136 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:01.399 like I think Chris Walker says this all the time, like he was in 137 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.639 medical text. So it doesn't make sense to set up the CEO selling to 138 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:09.559 doctors. He's not a doctor, so go find a doctor and make him 139 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.240 the face of the company, right, because that's who's going to trust. 140 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.559 Yeah, well, and again, if you think about that, it's funny 141 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:18.480 you say like doctors want to talk to doctors. That was literally one of 142 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.639 the categories in the trust parometer from Edelman was like I most trust someone like 143 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:28.240 myself, and it's like yes, that's why a practitioner with ten, fifteen 144 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.200 years of experience like you know, Dan, I've between us we probably heard 145 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:35.799 about the same stage of our career. We're probably have you done similar types 146 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.759 of work? I trust you. You Trust me, because it's like I 147 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:41.879 yes, I see that she's doing this and she's like me right. So 148 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.159 you know, we've got some differences. But if I had come in and 149 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.440 it was like, Oh, I just graduated yesterday, you'd be like, 150 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:50.600 have you done this before? Probably not. It's like yeah, you see, 151 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.200 I've been doing this forever, a decade right. Interviewed some like people 152 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.480 fresh on the scene too, and there's definitely a difference. That's why we 153 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:01.480 take a it's on directors and VPS of marketing for a reason, because they're 154 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.159 just high enough that they've earned some stripes, but they're still close enough to 155 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.200 the dirt to uh know what it's like to build a facebook ad campaign from 156 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:13.720 scratch. Right, the different step. So I get that. So come 157 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:16.279 back to your your fourth step process. I like wrote it down, but 158 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:18.559 you said it so fast I didn't even get to it. Also, repeat 159 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.440 it for the for me and for the audience. Like what was your what 160 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.440 was your fourth step process? Yeah, so one thing I want to clarify 161 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.759 is it's not four steps in a linear fashion. It's a kind of four 162 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.159 pillar like you have to build all of the pillars in Tanda. So the 163 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.399 first pillar is around credibility, and this is do people believe what you say? 164 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.639 Do People think you know what you're talking about? Do they generally trust 165 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.879 you? The second pillar is around building a profile. So this is about 166 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.440 how widely you're known and the nature of those connections. So if you look 167 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.000 at people who don't have a big profile, it tends to be that the 168 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.000 people who know them know them personally, they've worked together, it's their friends, 169 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.720 it's their family. When you look at people with a big profile, 170 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:05.200 it's more of like of the people know them, but they don't know those 171 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:09.480 people back Um. So that's kind of one just gut check of like do 172 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.679 you have a big profile or small profile? The third piece is around being 173 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.679 prolific. So if you look at some of the you know, throughout history, 174 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.720 the people that we would consider to be thought leaders or pioneers in their 175 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:26.440 field, they wrote or they painted or they built or they created every single 176 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.399 day. And so when you look at that from a business context, you 177 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:33.360 see that people are creating different types of content, they're sharing in different types 178 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:35.519 of places and they're doing that on a regular basis. It's not a media 179 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:39.440 blitz around, you know, a big product launch. It's no, they're 180 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.799 out there sharing all the time. And then the fourth pillars around depth of 181 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.279 ideas. So this is kind of a novelty factor. Are you doing new 182 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:50.879 things? One thing that I have shared that I think also strikes people as 183 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.399 a little like, oh, that's interesting, Um, is that the way 184 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:56.919 these pillyers work is you kind of work your way up right like there's three 185 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:01.759 levels. I would argue that you can be an effective thought leader at the 186 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.960 kind of innovating on the tactics level, innovating on the strategy level, and 187 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.919 it's rare that you're gonna have somebody innovating or sharing novel things at the visionary 188 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.000 level. In a lot of cases, if you're that visionary, you've probably 189 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.200 already got the other things happening too. But when you think about it, 190 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.720 and again this show is a perfect example, where you want people who have 191 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.720 the tactics and the strategies, not just this big vision of Oh, in 192 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.879 ten years, this fancy thing will happen. It's like, okay, well, 193 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.039 like, what's going to happen in the next twelve months and how do 194 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:37.240 I my programs forward or move my business forward based on innovative tactics or innovative 195 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:39.200 strategies? Yeah, the visionary one is tough because it gets a lot of 196 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.120 people in trouble, right, and a lot of people have were thought leaders 197 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.000 and then became not thought leaders because, well, their visions were wrong, 198 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:48.600 right. It happens a lot. It's funny. You're four things. I'm 199 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.720 like, Oh, it's so similar. Actually built a similar framework, but 200 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.080 I have three and there's overlap between them. I essentially said, like, 201 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:58.240 you're not an authentic thought leader unless you're an expert, like you kind of 202 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.960 know everything there is, as you're contributing unique and useful ideas and you're an 203 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.039 authority on the topic, as in, like you said, you're credible. 204 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:09.799 People believe you, but I have kind of have to in mind like what 205 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.159 your credibility and prolific are. I'm just kind of capturing an authority. Right, 206 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:18.159 people believe you and they like you. Both those things so you need 207 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:22.720 all those ingredients to have a thought to be a thought leader. I'm curious 208 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.200 when you're looking for that in at last in or maybe in past jobs in 209 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.240 the future, like, are you looking for people who are currently already have 210 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.399 all those things or people who just have the potential for those things? I'm 211 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:35.639 open to both. So I've been in a very fortunate position and a couple 212 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.559 of in a past company where the person was already a thought leader. So 213 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.600 when I worked at Dwarte, I worked very closely with Nancy Duarte and helping 214 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.279 to launch her, was it fourth book? I think it was her fourth 215 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:52.559 book, illuminate, working very closely with her to, you know, continue 216 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.759 to expand. She was one of the first prior to linkedin opening up basically 217 00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:58.720 their whole platform for people to be able to publish. She was one of 218 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:05.120 the original four hundred influencers on Linkedin that was allowed to publish long form content. 219 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.759 So I helped her build that program and helped her think through how do 220 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.919 we connect the ideas that are in your books to the service offerings, to 221 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.639 what you're trying to share next, and how do we make those connections Um 222 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.840 so in that case she was already a thought leader. I was able to 223 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.480 come in and, you know, it was basically tasked with like cool, 224 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.840 we've done all this great stuff. How do we turn that into business and 225 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.080 how do we keep it going? From an UTLASTIAN perspective, we have a 226 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.840 number of people who are already, you know, great spokespeople. They're super 227 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.679 smart, they have big followings, they appear in a lot of places right 228 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:37.799 they check all the boxes. What we realize is that maybe we don't have 229 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.200 the biggest bench show the deepest bench of people. And as we start looking 230 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.799 at going into new markets and telling new stories, do we have people lined 231 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.759 up that can tell those stories? Because we've already built these great people that 232 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:56.360 have credibility and kind of one area in terms of topics, but they don't 233 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:00.600 necessarily have that credibility to go into another topic. So what do we need 234 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.519 to build from the ground up? And I was fortunate to work one of 235 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:09.360 my colleagues. He has an excellent reputation internally. He's freaking smart, like 236 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.320 Super Smart. You get in a room with him and you're just like, 237 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:15.600 dude, you know things like how do you make these connections? And he 238 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:20.080 he had started to make those connections outside of it, last Sean. But 239 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.639 when you look at his profile, for example, so what we do is 240 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.039 we set a baseline and we score people based on how they're doing, and 241 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.240 I've got a couple of numbers that makes sense for us in terms of how 242 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.759 many followers do you have on different social platforms? How much content are you 243 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:37.919 creating um or being featured in per month? What's the nature of the outlets 244 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:39.279 that feature you? Right? And so when you look at it, he 245 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:45.399 was in that kind of smaller profile area of personally knowing people. So Um, 246 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.519 he would get brought in by a friend to share his expertise at, 247 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.879 say, a meet up, and so what we were able to do with 248 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.240 him is to start getting him sharing on social more regularly and then honing in 249 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.399 on the specific stories and topics that he would cover so that we could build 250 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:06.080 that credibility with more, you know, conferences, press, Um, working 251 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.240 with partners if they had, you know, guest blogs or podcasts or something 252 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.360 like that that he could be featured on, because he was very high on 253 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.679 the depth of ideas, but he wasn't sharing and because he wasn't sharing, 254 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.879 he didn't have a following. So his profile was not very big. He 255 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.879 also was a practitioner with, you know, twenty years experience, has a 256 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:26.679 solid title managing a big team, so he's high on that credibility piece as 257 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:33.240 well. Yeah, it's really interesting that current title and what they're doing is 258 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:38.279 such a big factor, more than PhD, more than awards. That's that's 259 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.279 the thing you're kind of using as the benchmark, and I guess that makes 260 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:45.639 sense because you're you're looking at like, well, where you're at right now. 261 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.639 It gives context, right, for where you're at. And we yet, 262 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:49.840 like you said, even before, I think before, I don't know 263 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.600 if you've said this on the show, read a bit like people want to 264 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.200 get advice from peers, often, but peers that are farther ahead than them. 265 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.919 But we're maybe once where they were like in a similar stage maybe, 266 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.160 and maybe just doing a lot better right, rather than people were like professional 267 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:08.720 thought leaders who just essentially always on a never ending speaking circuit. Right, 268 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.720 right. So one thing I'd like to hear about is if you were given 269 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:17.960 ten thousand dollars, sorry, not ten thousand dollars, if you're giving ten 270 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.279 x the budgets. I'm sure your budgets a lot more than ten thousand dollars. 271 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:25.240 If they were given ten x the budget, what would you do differently 272 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.720 at at lants and if you wanted to grow at Last Sans Thought Leadership? 273 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.440 Yeah, so I if I had ten x the budget, I would basically 274 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:38.119 pair. I would do a one to one pairing of a marketing generalist with 275 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.160 a thought leader Um, and I would say that for both kind of more 276 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.720 niche topics that are kind of technical in nature, as well as brand level 277 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.480 topics. So at last game, what that means for us we cover a 278 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:53.759 lot of agile and devots topics. That's what I tend to be responsible for 279 00:17:53.839 --> 00:18:00.680 in my current role. Like finding people with the chops that have that across 280 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:03.039 all of those topics is really hard and in a lot of cases, once 281 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:07.680 you find them, they're not because it's not their expertise. They're not that 282 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.759 great at social they're not that great at writing. There they struggle to put 283 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:17.160 together a presentation. A marketing generalist can come in and say you just you 284 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:22.000 tell me what expertise you have. Let's codify those ideas and then I can 285 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.319 go away as the generalist and break that up into a hundred social posts for 286 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.880 you to get scheduled or five conference pitches and Hey, I can reconfigure this 287 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:36.000 deck. Or let's turn those into modular stories that can be told to press. 288 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:40.279 Two conferences, you know across social media, you know in writing, 289 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:41.359 as a blog series and then, oh, we can package it up. 290 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.680 There's an ultimate guide, but so and so, and then we can break 291 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.359 it apart. Right. So I would do that as a one to one 292 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.680 pairing. Same thing for brand bubble topics. Obviously, things like remote work, 293 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.279 future work, collaboration, teamwork at center Um. Same thing. The 294 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:59.240 people who are building out all of those massive programs and practices. They do 295 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:04.640 not have time to translate their internal facing what is essentially thought leadership to be 296 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.160 appropriate for an external audience. But a marketing generalist can come in and do 297 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:14.160 all of that kind of packaging for that person. So there's a subject matter 298 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.559 expert need to be full time thought leader doing nothing but talking in front of 299 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.880 a camera to Mike. I would say that having the subject matter experts doing 300 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:25.400 that as a portion of their time and depending on the size of the company 301 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:27.880 and depending on what your goals are and depending on what that person is doing 302 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.160 is their day job. I struggle a little bit to say how much of 303 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:36.920 their time they need to put into that, whether it's etcetera. I think 304 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:38.880 it can also scale depending on the needs of the company. Right. So 305 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:45.759 if you are obviously we have a large conference called team and so a number 306 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.279 of our leadership and, you know, practitioners or spokespeople speak at that conference. 307 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.160 Obviously around that time we tend to do a lot of press, we 308 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.799 tend to do a lot of social there's a lot of stuff. So the 309 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:00.599 blitz. In that case they may have to spend their time time honing the 310 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.440 story, prepping, sharing, writing, et Cetera, for that event, 311 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.960 but then it may scale down to be of their time or ten percent of 312 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.599 their time going forward. But I would say that you definitely don't want them 313 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.920 just out there speaking all the time because then, to your point, they 314 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.839 start to lose that connection again, that depth of ideas pillar. They start 315 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:21.880 to lose that and that's why I say all the pillars have to work in 316 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.680 tandem. Like you can get a lot of followers if you do some not 317 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.039 safe for work or not on brand things right, like people will follow you 318 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:33.240 to watch you be a trade wreck. But that damage is your credibility and 319 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.240 obviously there's no depth, right, if you're only just heads down and you're 320 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.680 like doing the best work and you're building your own bank account or your own 321 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:44.160 value for the team or your own value for a company, but you're not 322 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.000 sharing it and you're not being prolific, you're not going to build a profile 323 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:51.000 and you're not going to have that external credibility. So they have to work 324 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:55.079 in tandem and it makes a lot of sense because obviously just getting in front 325 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.839 of a microphone, Um, even for an hour a day and talking, 326 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.400 whether by an inn of view, like the amount of work it takes the 327 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.519 marketer to like record that, publish it and splinter it up into all the 328 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:10.319 different pieces is literally the rest of the day, right. So if they 329 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:15.039 you had them like six hours of the day like producing content for the marketer 330 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.119 to go to market, like package and market like, you're gonna overwhelm even 331 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:22.079 one marketer and a wonder one relationship. So that makes a lot of sense 332 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.559 and actually it's a pretty good case considering like most people have one thought leadership 333 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.880 content marketer and usually they're creating thought leadership for multiple people on the executive team. 334 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.400 But it's probably not enough. It could probably just focus on one person. 335 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:40.839 But if you only had enough budget for one thought leadership, kind of 336 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.000 content marketer, how would you do that? Would you just focus on the 337 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:48.880 one or would you have that person focused on multiple subject matter experts? Yeah, 338 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.720 I would. I would go ahead and have them focus on multiple people 339 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.079 for a couple of reasons. One is that, as I mentioned, just 340 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.519 having having all of that hinge on a single person, like, do they 341 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.599 ever get to take vacation? What if they get sick? What if they 342 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.119 have a child and they need to take leave for, you know, to 343 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.200 raise their kid for a couple of months? Right, like there's so many 344 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.920 things that are not bad. The biggest risk is everyone's concerned like Oh, 345 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.319 what if that person leaves, and I'm like, okay, but there's shorter 346 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.160 term, great things that are good for all of us that they should do. 347 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:22.559 They should take vacation, they should raise their kids, they should, 348 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.039 you know, take sick time if they're sick. So that's one issue. 349 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:30.079 Is that you do need to have kind of a bench of people. The 350 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:36.319 second piece of that is the how many kind of topics you have the credibility 351 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:38.799 to talk about, and one person can only be an expert in so many 352 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:42.359 things and I've I've even had this in my career, like prior to kind 353 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:45.720 of my focus in over the last several years. I was doing everything. 354 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.960 So I did events, I did demand H I was in Marcto or hubspot. 355 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:52.400 I don't do that anymore. I'm the wrong person to ask if your 356 00:22:53.240 --> 00:23:00.359 workflow logic is correct in Marcato or hub spot. I understand where to additional 357 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.000 demandsin fits into an overall marketing strategy. I understand the connections between kind of 358 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:11.079 content marketing and demand it, but I do not have the credibility anymore to 359 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:17.599 speak about in depth demanding. And so if, again, let's say I 360 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:21.079 worked at Hubspot, I would be a great person to speak about the content 361 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.319 marketing side, the thought leadership side. I could probably hold my own on 362 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.720 social media, but you don't want me to be you need somebody else to 363 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.480 be that demand in person. And so if you try to have that spokesperson 364 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.920 be all on one again, you're gonna lose that depth of ideas and you're 365 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.319 going to struggle on the credibility side, even if they're very prolific, because 366 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:41.519 they can kind of talk about a bunch of different things. So that's why? 367 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.599 I would also say building the same you know, building people and making 368 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.559 sure that they are credible in the topics that you, as a company. 369 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:53.000 No, you want to address over the next, call it, twelve to 370 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.799 thirty six months. It's interesting. So do you find a person that you 371 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:03.400 think is a good candidate and help them find their niche to become that public 372 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.319 face, or do you reverse engineer, like you find the niche you want 373 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:07.680 to cover and then you look around for the person who can be the thought 374 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.960 leader? I've done it both ways. So we and and we've done this 375 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.839 kind of both ways and at Lassian, where we've said let's find the story 376 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.440 and then say, okay, we need a couple of different people to be 377 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:22.039 able to tell that stories. So if we think about obviously at last and 378 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.279 the Elastian is a very engineering heavy company, right. We do SAS, 379 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:32.000 we do collaboration, we do software. So the engineering from our recruiting standpoint, 380 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.240 from a buyer standpoint, from a user standpoint, all of those things 381 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.319 are very important to us. So having just one person be the face, 382 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:45.119 in quotes, of Lassian engineering is going to be really hard. So in 383 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.680 that case we decided here's the story we want to tell around engineering. Here's 384 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:52.519 a couple of different people who have, you know, great expertise, or 385 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.119 maybe they've already they're already high and at least one pillar. So now we 386 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.519 just need to figure out what to build across the other pillars to make them 387 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.359 acceptable or are good thought leaders for us around engineering. So in that case 388 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:07.960 we we focused more on building the story and finding the people. We've had 389 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:12.279 other cases where we found someone you know or somebody already had a following or 390 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.920 they were already very good at this, and so then at that point we 391 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.960 were just like, all right, cool, we just need to kind of 392 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.799 supply you with a few we need to help you hone your story in a 393 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.839 way that makes sense for our goals, but we still want you to be 394 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.839 out there talking about different things in your own voice, applying your own lens 395 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:34.559 to it, those kinds of things. That's kind of an interesting point on 396 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.680 you hit there where you're honing their story right. A piece of advice, 397 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:42.079 and I've mentioned this in this series already, a piece of advice that honestly 398 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:47.480 drives me crazy on linkedin all the time is that it's just wrong. In 399 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:52.000 my opinion, is just be you. Right just be yourself and you're like 400 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:55.559 what am I supposed to do with that? Right? What, like how 401 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:57.359 do I craft that? It's like so hearing you say, like, no, 402 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.440 we honed their story, is not just just be you advice. It's 403 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.400 like no, like it's it's not like we made up a story. You. 404 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.759 You're probably going in and looking for what part of their journey actually lines 405 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.119 up with what the story, the message we want to tell. Yeah, 406 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.960 is that what you're doing? Yeah. So, so there's a couple of 407 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.759 ways that we do that. In I have kind of another framework within the 408 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.519 framework kind of thing. Um, and this stuff tails a lot with my 409 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.920 kind of my general mindset around content strategy, and that's focusing on different content 410 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.559 depths, so looking at the conceptual, strategic and tactical levels of an idea. 411 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.359 And so when we get in, usually whenever I do these working sessions 412 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.400 with people, you know, we get in and I'm just like tell me 413 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:40.079 all the things that you're interested in or that you're working on, like let's 414 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:44.559 get it all out and then let's start to talk about okay, going forward 415 00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:48.480 over the next twelve to twenty four months. Which of these things do you 416 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.640 think you've got enough to say to fill up, you know, one blog 417 00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:56.079 post per month, five linked in post per month to presentation abstracts. And 418 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.319 when you start to frame it up that way, people immediately can you like 419 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.039 Oh, it's this thing over here and I'm like why is that? Well, 420 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.799 this idea, and then they start talking and you recognize, okay, 421 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:11.160 they've got the big idea. At the conceptual level, they understand the processes, 422 00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:14.640 the key knowledge components, the capabilities, the tools that you needed a 423 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:19.440 strategic level to make that idea reality. And then obviously they've got examples or 424 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:26.160 case studies or workflows or tips at the tactical level based on how that fits 425 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:27.839 into the strategy. And all ladders up. So when you look at that, 426 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:34.240 the likelihood that somebody has more than maybe three of those levels of ideas 427 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.680 that they could really it's got the legs and they can. They can go 428 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.839 up down that whole you know, conceptual and tactical and strategic and back to 429 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.480 tactical and strategic right like it's it's rare that you're gonna find somebody that's just 430 00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:52.839 so broader, prolific or whatever they can go beyond kind of more than than 431 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.359 three ideas. The second thing that I do is I do a personal branding 432 00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.920 section, and this tends to be for a lot of people who aren't market. 433 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.440 Is the most scary thing. I sit down with them and they're like, 434 00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:04.160 you just tell me. One of the first things I'm like, what 435 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.359 do you wear? How do you dress? And they're like, I'll wear 436 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.480 whatever you whatever you tell me. You know, I just whatever you tell 437 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:12.079 me to do. I'll just do that, and I'm like no, no, 438 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.039 no, no, I have no answers here. I do not have 439 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:21.240 an agenda. Legitimately. Do you wear Polos? Do you wear button ups? 440 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.440 Do you wear t shirts? And like one of one of the people 441 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.200 I was working with, Um, he started out with that, like Oh, 442 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.880 you just tell me, I'll do whatever you say. And so we 443 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:32.799 started going through and he's like well, actually, I don't really like the 444 00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:34.680 color red. I'm like great, you don't wear Red Gun. He's like, 445 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:37.839 I mean, I can't wear red. I'm like no, you know, 446 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.920 we're red. Put It on the list and he's like also, Um, 447 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:42.119 I don't really look that great in hats. I'm just I'm just not 448 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:45.319 a big fan of hats. I was like, great, you don't wear 449 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:48.000 hats. He's like, I mean, I can't wear hats. Like again, 450 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.240 once we get into it, you have preferences, so you tell me 451 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.720 what those are. And and same thing on the how open or how personal? 452 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.279 Like, how truthful are you? Do you share about face of yours, 453 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.160 your mistakes in the moment, or do you wait until it's cleaned up 454 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.480 with a tidy bow? Both ways work. You can do it either way, 455 00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.119 but you need to decide, like, do you share about your kids? 456 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:12.640 Do you do you share about your spouse? Do you share about your 457 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:17.680 family? Do you show pictures of them on social media or in conferences? 458 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.279 Again, there is not a right answer, but you need to choose, 459 00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:25.680 because if you start doing all of this stuff now and then, let's you 460 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:27.079 know, hopefully the goal is that you have a big audience and all of 461 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:30.359 a sudden you're like, actually, I wish I hadn't shared that photo of 462 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.079 my husband. Well, kind of should have found that six months ago before 463 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.240 you spoke to a crowd of a thousand people and Flash that picture up of 464 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.680 your kids or your husband. Right. So that and you know I I 465 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.319 talk about this too, even in some of my stories, where you know 466 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:47.759 my husband will hear me. Rehearsing for something and I'm like, I don't 467 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:52.359 want you to listen because you lived this with me and I'm telling a story. 468 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.480 And again, it's not a lie, it's just nobody wants to hear 469 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.839 about the two year journey. They want to like make it smarty. But 470 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.359 for him, he knows it was two years and the fact that I'm able 471 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.160 to tell in five minutes something's missing right. So in my case I have, 472 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.039 I have made the trade off on the spectrum of you know, every 473 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:17.480 detail, dent, truthful, exactly how it happened, with I'm going to 474 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:21.240 tell the right story to the right person at the right time. I mean 475 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:26.279 part of being authority and being prolific is being trust, is being trusted, 476 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:30.240 and usually people trust you more if, and James Carberry, the founder of 477 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:32.400 sweet fish media, is the one who really taught me this, he's like 478 00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:36.279 you have to put little hooks out there for people to identify with you, 479 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:38.400 and it's not the thing that it's not your expertise. Yes, they're coming 480 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.119 to you to hear to you, but he's like, there's a reason why 481 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.839 I tell everybody that, like my ambition in life is to live as many 482 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:49.839 days as possible without wearing shoes. He's like, I'm a flip flop guy, 483 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.039 I live in Florida. Like he's like, I hate Pepsi and I 484 00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:57.480 don't wear shoes. He's like, I'm a zero fan and I like sweetest 485 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:02.039 fish. There's a lot of people that I just defended and there's a lot 486 00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.440 of people that are like yes, amen, and he's like the Pepsi people 487 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:08.480 could probably get over it, but I trust me, like all the coke 488 00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:14.200 zero fans were probably like this is my man, you know, little things. 489 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:18.079 That's just like, and they're all just talk about that. Pepsi is 490 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.400 the worst among team coke. to Um, it's sweet fish. We have 491 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.319 debates because not everybody's on team coke, even though James and I are. 492 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.039 I don't know how they got hired. Come on, come on, it 493 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.640 probably should be, but James is too nice. He let's team Pepsi on. 494 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.319 I guess. I don't know. I guess everybody deserves a chance. 495 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.519 It's a questionable so it's interesting. It's how do you go about identifying which 496 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:45.960 things are worth highlighting which things aren't, because there's clearly like you don't want 497 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.799 to make up fake stuff just because it's trendy, like Oh, they're into 498 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.400 this because that's kind of a trending topic. No, they're not into this, 499 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:55.440 and you don't address them and stuff they're not comfortable and because that would 500 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:59.000 be inauthentic and they're they're probably not going to perform that well, um on 501 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.200 stage or in front of them if they're wearing something that's like they never wear 502 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:07.079 that. But then how do you go about finding the things that create kind 503 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:10.160 of a unique image? What do you look for? I think the biggest 504 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:17.640 thing is digging into their actual experience and then kind of almost playing that five 505 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.079 y question or asking what next? What next? Right? So, for 506 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.480 example, talking about people who it's like, man, you know, I 507 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.920 remember back in the day where we one of the people I used to was 508 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.519 working with, they had a story about you. The WIFI was so bad 509 00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.000 in the office when it was like, Oh, we first opened this office, 510 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:38.079 and I was like they're like, oh, that wife I was terrible, 511 00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:42.440 and I was like tell me about that, and they're like you literally 512 00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:45.400 had to like turn the router upside down and like put it on the window 513 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.720 sill, but then every night the cleaning crew would come in and like move 514 00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:52.880 it off the window sill, and so every morning there was a whole ritual 515 00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.519 that somebody had to go in and turn the Wifi router and you're just like 516 00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:00.599 that's ridiculous, right. So when you think about, let's talk about scaling 517 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:05.720 a company, and you say, yeah, you used to have to take 518 00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:08.720 your meetings in the bathroom because there wasn't a conference room, do you happen 519 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.480 to have a picture of that, like, surely someone took a picture of 520 00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:14.920 that? Oh, in fact, I do have a picture of that. 521 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:19.079 Perfect. That's your opener for talking about scaling a company and saying, I 522 00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:21.119 don't know how many of you have ever had to take a call in a 523 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.720 freaking bathroom, but it sucks right, like the acoustics, the echo of 524 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:29.920 the whole thing. And so that's the jumping off point, because somebody in 525 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.920 the audience has had to take a call from a bathroom. Half the people 526 00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:37.079 in the audience have never done that and that it bottles their mind right. 527 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:40.960 When you then fast forward, and it's fine to say fast forward five years, 528 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.039 and now we're in this high rise office. It's fancy, we have 529 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:51.400 all of these things, but we're still dealing with our servers from that time 530 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:53.200 period, and the other half of the audience that's never taken a call in 531 00:33:53.200 --> 00:34:00.279 the bathroom but understands about outdated infrastructure is like, man, I ish I 532 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.359 did not have to deal with these infrastructure concerns. I feel you, and 533 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:07.679 then that's that same pain right. So from my perspective it's finding those moments 534 00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:10.719 that, if there's pictures or if their stories and you can tell, I 535 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.239 mean their demeanor changes. I had somebody say this to me the other day. 536 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:15.159 They were asking me about like, Oh, what do you want to 537 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.719 talk about on this podcast or this conference? And so I started listening to 538 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.920 things I could talk about and they're like, Whoa, go back that one. 539 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:25.280 You got really excited, like you smiled and you lit up and you're 540 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:30.840 talking with your hands. That's the one. And so again giving people that 541 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:35.519 permission to say here's kind of the high level goals that I need to talk 542 00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:42.239 about. But when that's broad enough to say engineering or storytelling, I'm really 543 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:46.360 trying to find what is the thing that you genuinely like? Not Everything you've 544 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:51.599 ever done, not everything that the company is selling. No, why did 545 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:53.519 you come here? Like what problem did you actually come here to solve? 546 00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:58.639 And why are you excited about that problem? That prompt also tends to get 547 00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:00.800 people like well, let me tell you if you know what happened to this 548 00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.960 situation. And I'm like, in fact, I don't. Please tell me 549 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.960 what happened in this situation that changed your mind. Even if you're dealing with 550 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:10.639 like a founder, for example, and you're like no, they have to 551 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:17.960 be the face, ask them what happened that made them so mad that they 552 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.920 left whatever it was they were doing at that moment and started the company. 553 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:28.679 What was that? Because that's the interesting part. Not and then we made 554 00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:30.599 this company with ten features, like, nobody freaking cares about your features. 555 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.840 If they care about the features, they'll go to the website, do the 556 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.159 checklist right, they'll watch the Webinar, they'll do a demo. But what? 557 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:39.800 What made you so mad that you just dropped whatever you were doing and 558 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:45.119 you came to solve this problem? And then how did you go about validating 559 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:46.679 that? Other people have this problem? How did you go about validating that 560 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:51.400 nobody else was solving it the right way? Right? That's the interesting part, 561 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.880 man. That is such a good framework for answering and figuring out someone's 562 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:00.519 backstory. Essentially, like why? Why? Why? Why? Just asking 563 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:02.239 the question so many times that you find they get to the root of why 564 00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:06.679 they did what they did. Uh. Sometimes I run into people who started, 565 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:09.119 have started companies. This is kind of more founder Centrics, like why 566 00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:13.719 do you start the company? They're like well, because I was assessing the 567 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:15.440 market and it just seemed like a really good market to get into. But 568 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.800 there's always a little bit more than being opportunistic and finding it. You know, 569 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.639 you kind of have to want to get into that industry and there's usually 570 00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:28.079 more more there. Um, what do you do to find things that aren't 571 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.559 like related to the story, memorable things? How do you make people memorable? 572 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.880 So this is where the if I had ten next the budget, I 573 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:43.599 would pay one marketer to one thought leader, because the only way I found 574 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.400 to do it is for and this is like my personal experience, is to 575 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:52.239 genuinely know the person and to also love the things that they love, to 576 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.440 fall in love with the same things that they fell in love with, and 577 00:36:55.519 --> 00:37:00.000 you can only do that by spending time together and that ability to walk and 578 00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:04.760 talk, that ability to watch them, that ability to lurk on their calendar, 579 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:10.000 like that closeness. That's how you get the interesting stuff you know. 580 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:15.079 And yes, you can manufacture it, you can come up with the right 581 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.559 questions, like I can say all day long, Oh, here's my ten 582 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.320 questions, but if you watch me when I do what I do to pull 583 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:24.440 stuff out of people, and it means the same thing you're doing on this 584 00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:29.480 podcast, like you're you're talking to me, you're seeing how things go, 585 00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:34.079 you're hearing and then you're riffing. You don't have your proper list of ten 586 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:38.079 questions to have a good podcast interview. And so that's a hard question because 587 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:40.519 I wish I could tell you that there's a formula for it, and the 588 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:45.599 formula is you actually have to know them and you actually have to care about 589 00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.320 them and you actually have to love what they love. And there there's just 590 00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:55.360 to get the best kind of content or the best person out there. There's 591 00:37:55.400 --> 00:38:00.000 not a substitute, there's not a handy, pithy framework, there's not sound 592 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:05.679 bites, there's no there's no way to get that unless you genuinely know them. 593 00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:09.760 It's interesting. I wonder what the kind of a model that I'm currently 594 00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:15.760 using as a shortcut, because I think what you're saying is right and true. 595 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:17.840 Like finding the things that you can only find if you spend a lot 596 00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:22.840 of time with them. But a shortcut I'm taking with our even our employees. 597 00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:25.599 We have a Linkedin evangelist program. It's not quite a thought leadership program, 598 00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:29.360 but we're trying to get them out there make content. Could be a 599 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.280 good stepping stone to being a thought leader. Is I'm having to come up 600 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:36.719 with ideas about, like what are things that you're passionate about that like lots 601 00:38:36.719 --> 00:38:38.960 of people are passionate about, for James's coke zero. I mean, I 602 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:43.400 didn't ask him that question. He was already talking about that on Linkedin quite 603 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:45.239 a bit. But for new employees, I'm just like, give me three 604 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:50.159 things that you love that like it's like everybody loves this. Is it Disney? 605 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.000 Is it coke? Is it like, what is it? And then 606 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:54.719 give me some things that you love that are just kind of like weird. 607 00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.199 Right, there's gonna be a few people that even understand what that is and 608 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.920 it's gonna work and I like just finding a mix of them and then hopefully 609 00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:07.960 blaming that into their little mini brand identities and somehow making little mentions of it 610 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:12.360 and content every once in a while, like we all know Gary v but 611 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.320 he has a number of different little is ms that are just like. I 612 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.559 have nothing to do with what he does, but everybody knows he's working towards 613 00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.039 buying the jets. Right. So if he's wearing the jets hat every all 614 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.440 the insiders. No, he loves the jets. I'm not a jets fan, 615 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:31.800 but I'm sure if you are you're like yes, yeah, well, 616 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:36.599 and mine. You know, I I always tell people to start with, 617 00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:39.039 start with the bio and like test out different BIOS. Right, like, 618 00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:43.039 right, it as if you're super humble or super arrogant. Write it as 619 00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.960 if you only have a hundred characters. Right, it as if you're a 620 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:51.679 PhD and IT'S A dissertation. Um, try on those different BIOS. And 621 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.880 for me having that, like you know, marketer, writer, speaker by 622 00:39:54.920 --> 00:40:00.400 day, Singer, actor of fitness by night, like that immediate at least 623 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:04.960 starts to tell you things. And yes, I do sometimes draw parallels. 624 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.719 I have. You know, when I talk about the content depths, the 625 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:10.480 first example that I use actually is around what does it mean to be healthy 626 00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:14.719 and fit, and that you're going to answer that question differently if you're runners 627 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.400 world versus muscle and fitness versus Yoga Journal and then I talk a little bit 628 00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:21.280 about, Hey, I personally ascribed to kind of this style of workout. 629 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:23.639 So let's let's dig in Um, and that's how you get that flavor of 630 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:28.760 like, Oh, she made the connection with fitness fiend. But the other 631 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.239 thing you'll know about me if you deal with me very often, is I 632 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:34.639 really like Alliteration, like I love it. Right, I had a blog. 633 00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:37.159 I called it a musing marketing then I broadened it to consciously corporate and 634 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.639 then at one point I was kind of like I noticed there was it was 635 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:43.880 before fashion became a thing. So I was doing like work where Wednesdays, 636 00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:45.679 and now, obviously I was like how can I get fitness fiend and like 637 00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:51.159 what rhymes with fitness? Oh, fiend, they go together. You see 638 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.679 those little things in there, even though I don't talk about it as like 639 00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:59.559 an explicit thing, but when we have conversations like this and then you look 640 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.960 at everything that I write and you're like, oh my gosh, she does 641 00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:06.760 like she she likes alliteration, and if you work in me on a team, 642 00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:09.000 you know that, like, Hey, I'm having a copyrighting. Delima 643 00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:13.199 Astley pull out your alliteration, right, like it's a thing that you kind 644 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.559 of know if you deal with me. And so there's almost that element of 645 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:21.599 asking people, like what's the quirk or what's something that like what do you 646 00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:25.000 do on the weekends? Or like what's the one question that everybody always seems 647 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:29.079 to ask you, like are you that person on the street that everybody always 648 00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.239 asks you for directions? Why? Because you always have them back, for 649 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:36.239 you just look confident or you like walk really fast, so they figure out 650 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:38.840 I seem to know where they're going. Um. So asking them like what 651 00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:44.679 are some weird experiences that happened to you a lot, and then drilling into 652 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:46.400 being like what? Why is it? Why does that seem to happen to 653 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:49.559 you a lot? Why do you seem to get that question a lot? 654 00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:52.679 or like what's a silly thing you do with your kids or with your spouse 655 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.239 or with your book club? Right, like asking those kinds of questions gets 656 00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:01.079 that kind of any questions like that do you have? So I would have 657 00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:05.239 to look. I've got like a whole tactics worksheet in the personal brand section. 658 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:07.559 I ask how do you speak, Um, and then I give some 659 00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:10.760 prompts like are you formal? Are you sarcastic? Are You approachable? Are 660 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:15.119 Your friendly? Are you funny? Um, and so, as people start 661 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:19.400 to go through those questions, I think it's honestly only like five big questions. 662 00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:22.599 Um. One of them is kind of that bio exercise and then we 663 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:24.639 see what happens with that. The other is how you speak, that how 664 00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:28.440 you dress. I think. Also it's like why do you dress that way? 665 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:30.199 Oh, well, I don't know. I've been in Chech my whole 666 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:35.440 life. So we wear jeans and hoodies. Okay, that's fine. How 667 00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:37.280 did you get into tech? When you say your whole life, what do 668 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.280 you mean by that? Right. So, Um, it's it's honestly only 669 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:45.039 like five questions, but then kind of some prompts in there to get them 670 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:47.280 thinking. Um, I've also done it, if people are stumped, to 671 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.519 show them a massive list of adjectives and be like a circle of five things 672 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.039 on here, like which of these words do you like? And I don't 673 00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.719 give them any prompting. It's not which one describes you, it's not what 674 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:05.079 do you aim to be? It's just like strucle. So words on here 675 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:09.000 that speak to you. You know, man, that's so much fun and 676 00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:12.440 I want to see these questions. And you mentioned it's in a section. 677 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.000 Do you have this published somewhere? So I've been so bad. So the 678 00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:20.920 stuff that I'm talking about right now is basically published, uh, pretty much 679 00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:23.320 internally. Um, I have. I think I've actually published. I spoke 680 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:29.000 about this, Um at B two B forum in the fall, I think, 681 00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:31.719 yeah, last fall. So I did give I turned them into basically 682 00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:37.000 worksheets for people and then I've published it kind of slowly but surely, on 683 00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:40.119 Linkedin in different places. But yes, I need to publish like a long 684 00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:45.039 form article with the downloadable templates. But I can send you. I can, 685 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:46.719 I can, I mean I can. You have enough information to write 686 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:50.360 your own playbook on this and maybe I don't know if it's enough to be 687 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:52.480 a full book and maybe you, I bet you have a lot more that 688 00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:54.880 probably could be a full book. But it sounds like you have a lot 689 00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:58.199 worked out, because you kept mentioning like, Oh, I have a framework, 690 00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.519 oh I have a framework for my framework. Oh, that in section 691 00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.199 part three. I'm like, Oh, she's got a lot of information this. 692 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.880 This should have been published somewhere a long time ago. I know people 693 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.559 keep saying. I keep getting people being like do you have this? Can 694 00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:12.800 I get this? where? You say you have this? Where does it? 695 00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:15.880 You need to sell worksheets just so we can publish it with this episode 696 00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:17.000 for the audience. You know, I'll save you the workshets. You can 697 00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:20.880 publish it with this episode for sure, and that way people can get it. 698 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:25.320 I it's interesting because I have wrestled with this problem for the better part 699 00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:30.440 of the last decade and I think I've solved it pretty well with the framework 700 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:35.320 for my current needs. So it's interesting hearing from other people. They're like 701 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:37.320 no, that's actually this makes sense, like I get it. I can 702 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.599 use this, because in the past when I've tried to solve this problem, 703 00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:45.559 sometimes we go down these like semantic rabbit holes of like is credibility the right 704 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:49.719 way versus authority or experts? You know what we're getting at. It's evos 705 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:52.559 of trust, like do people believe you? You know. So that's part 706 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:57.440 of what's kept me from publishing is that I feel I still feel like I 707 00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.760 need to stress test it that like basically on the credit ability pillars, that 708 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:02.400 I don't have the credibility and be like this is the way to do it. 709 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:06.280 Like if you look at someone like Dory Clark, for example, she's 710 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:09.519 done a ton of work in this space and she's written full books on it. 711 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.559 Right. Yeah, like she started somewhere and she wasn't authority on the 712 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.480 space at some point. I've actually read Dories Book. I've read every single 713 00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:20.519 book, and I'm telling you, you have some unique information. Yeah, 714 00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:22.199 and that's kind of a problem and that's I feel like I've done it and 715 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:25.159 I've actually had to start putting together my own playbook because I went and read 716 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:30.159 every book looking for the answers and I haven't fund them. Yeah, so 717 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:32.599 you have some of the unique ones and I would have read your book and 718 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.519 I would have been introducing you as author Ashley Fosse already. All right, 719 00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:43.239 I would have been picked up by other people and it would have built and 720 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:45.320 you would have been more you would have built that credibility. But it has 721 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:50.280 to start somewhere. So I'm just encouraging you, as a host of this 722 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.920 show, that you should probably compile those into a book. Yeah, well, 723 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:55.639 thank you. Well then that would be Beta right, like if I 724 00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:00.719 became a thought leader on thought leadership. It's not about to do the thought 725 00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:02.719 leadership, I know, and thought leadership is super cringe e. So it's 726 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:06.719 hard to like want to position yourself as that person, because a lot of 727 00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.880 people hate thought leadership and think it's a joke of fat or a Buzzword. 728 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.840 You and I both now. You're like no, it's kind of a thing 729 00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:15.599 and it's not going away. You could call it someone else, something else. 730 00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:20.119 Deloitte's calling it imminence marketing. You're like the heck, the heck, 731 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:22.719 it's just it's called what it is. Okay, well, we don't even 732 00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:30.719 have time to get into like influencers versus spokespeople, versus whatever, thought leaders 733 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:34.360 or whatever you want to call it. Right, like there's all these words 734 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:38.079 and I think that we it is useful to differentiate in some cases, like 735 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:43.119 what is this person do, like what do they have credibility to say, 736 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:47.039 and therefore you use them differently. Right, but this whole again, imminence 737 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:50.920 marketing, like what is that? Even? I don't know. They're just 738 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:54.400 trying to reposition it because they don't want to be associated with the term thought 739 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:59.960 leadership, because thought leadership has gotten baggage, because people of coint and called 740 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.639 in themselves thought leaders and they're lacking your four major pillars. Right, you 741 00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:06.480 don't have the credibility and everybody knows it and they're like thought leader. I 742 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.239 spoke out of TCH X. you're like great, thanks, right, right, 743 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:12.639 well, and I would say that's I mean, maybe that's the other 744 00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:16.000 big thing that I do agree with everyone, which you can't call yourself a 745 00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:21.400 thought beater, like where it's in your linkedin title where you're like Actley leader. 746 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.719 It's like that's weird, that's no, no, no, but you 747 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.599 can still write a book to help people navigate their word way to it's it's 748 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:31.599 worth it's a worthwhile pursuit to become a thought leader, even though you can 749 00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:37.880 never call yourself one, and it's certainly profitable as a marketing strategy. It's 750 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:39.719 not for everybody, but for especially a lot of tech companies who want to 751 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:45.039 be seen as innovative, like for B two B tech companies, it's kind 752 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.000 of the main avenue to go is thought leadership marketing, and I know people 753 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.199 are still hungry for it. I have customers asking me about it all the 754 00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:55.840 time as a podcast agency. So write that book. You have to still 755 00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:00.360 find your position and angle for it of who it's targeting. But and that's 756 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.280 a hard thing in itself, but you could do it. Cool to wrap 757 00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:08.280 up this episode, though. Is there anything? Is there a question I 758 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:13.519 should have asked and haven't asked yet, that you want to tell our audience 759 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:16.760 about? I don't think so. I think we we kind of covered the 760 00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:22.239 GIMM and chased a few rabbits. Even so. Yeah, I don't think 761 00:48:22.599 --> 00:48:24.320 I don't think so. I think we've covered it. Fantastic that I did 762 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:29.280 my job as a host well actually, if people want to learn more about 763 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.320 these things and want to see when that book comes out, where can they 764 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:36.480 go to learn more from you online? Yeah, so I am at Ashley 765 00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.679 Foss on Linkedin and twitter, so you should be able to follow me or 766 00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.599 d m me or connect to me in those places and I talked about these 767 00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.599 topics and other kind of content strategy and marketing strategy topics in both of those 768 00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:52.079 places as well well. Fantastic. Thanks for joining me on BDB growth. 769 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:52.400 Thanks for having me