The Future of Paid/Owned/Earned Media for B2B w/Chris Walker

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:09.250 welcome back to be, to be growth. I'm dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and 3 00:00:09.250 --> 00:00:14.570 today I'm here with chris walker who is the ceo of refined labs chris, welcome 4 00:00:14.570 --> 00:00:17.890 to the show dan, great to be on here, man, looking forward to diving in. This 5 00:00:17.890 --> 00:00:22.320 is a topic that I think is going to be really interesting. Absolutely. As part 6 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:25.300 of this deep dive that we're kicking off into owned media for B two B 7 00:00:25.300 --> 00:00:28.930 marketing, I wanted to set the table with chris walker here today to kind of 8 00:00:28.930 --> 00:00:33.540 talk about the current state of the whole mix of paid media, earned media 9 00:00:33.540 --> 00:00:37.050 and of course owned media in order to kind of get some context what we're 10 00:00:37.050 --> 00:00:41.510 talking about as far as owned media for B two B marketing today. So to kind of 11 00:00:41.510 --> 00:00:45.850 kick it off with my first question chris, I wanted to talk about If you 12 00:00:45.850 --> 00:00:50.660 feel like there's an imbalance between the three paid owned and earned mix 13 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:54.410 with most companies in B two B today. So I think maybe first it's good to 14 00:00:54.410 --> 00:00:57.980 just take a step back. So everyone kind of, I feel like the definitions are, 15 00:00:57.990 --> 00:01:01.260 are kind of self explanatory but would love to define them for people just so 16 00:01:01.260 --> 00:01:05.950 people have them so paid pretty straightforward, you're paying for 17 00:01:05.950 --> 00:01:10.650 impressions or distribution or something there owned, you're running 18 00:01:10.650 --> 00:01:13.610 it through your own channels. I consider own channels to be a linkedin 19 00:01:13.610 --> 00:01:18.240 channel, a website, a podcast etcetera, you own it, Some people will say, oh 20 00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:21.300 it's linked in, so linkedin owns that, you don't, I think that argument is 21 00:01:21.300 --> 00:01:25.310 dumb link, you own your linkedin channel and then lastly earned. Which 22 00:01:25.310 --> 00:01:29.900 would be somebody sees something cool that you did and then they either share 23 00:01:29.900 --> 00:01:33.720 it promoted or otherwise put it on their platform that includes your 24 00:01:33.720 --> 00:01:35.260 content message etcetera. 25 00:01:36.340 --> 00:01:40.480 And so now we have those laid out. I would say that most companies um at 26 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:44.020 least the ones that I interact with do have an imbalance here. And where do 27 00:01:44.020 --> 00:01:48.900 you feel like the imbalance leans towards? I think the companies spend um 28 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:54.280 an excessive amount of money on paid programs to create vanity metrics to 29 00:01:54.290 --> 00:01:58.360 appease internal stakeholders and investors. And we've run a lot of paid 30 00:01:58.370 --> 00:02:01.220 right? So like this is coming from one that runs a lot of paid but I go into a 31 00:02:01.220 --> 00:02:04.860 lot especially larger scale companies and go in and tell them to spend less 32 00:02:05.540 --> 00:02:09.000 because it's just wasteful. Absolutely. And I know you've spent a lot of time 33 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:12.740 talking on your show. It's like why paid because it's the most easily track 34 00:02:12.740 --> 00:02:18.360 of All right you can optimize those U. T. M. Tracking links to optimize from 35 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:22.260 first touch all the way to revenue. But of course not all those pan out the 36 00:02:22.260 --> 00:02:26.680 same. They don't always convert the same. It's the most easily trackable in 37 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:31.110 the current state of B. Two B measurement which I think is incredibly 38 00:02:31.110 --> 00:02:34.910 flawed. Where do you feel like they're under leveraged. Do you think you'd be 39 00:02:34.910 --> 00:02:35.760 owned or earned. 40 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:40.660 I actually think that owned is probably the most under leveraged. I think that 41 00:02:40.670 --> 00:02:45.900 earned companies pretend to do earned by hiring a pr firm and trying to get 42 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:51.350 there, get into Forbes or get their Ceo on some news show or put out press 43 00:02:51.350 --> 00:02:56.520 releases about their last series c raise or something like you can call 44 00:02:56.520 --> 00:03:00.090 that earned media. It technically is but I don't think that's gonna, I don't 45 00:03:00.090 --> 00:03:02.520 think that's making a huge difference about whether your buyers consider your 46 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.260 category in your company and things like that. So if you exclude that then 47 00:03:05.260 --> 00:03:09.090 they're under leveraged and both owned and earned. If you were to say like an 48 00:03:09.090 --> 00:03:12.410 ideal company in the future or like what they should be heading towards 49 00:03:12.420 --> 00:03:15.840 soft costs included. What do you feel like the breakup probably should be, 50 00:03:15.850 --> 00:03:20.560 should it be split one third, one third, one third or do you feel like there is 51 00:03:20.940 --> 00:03:24.350 a line in the sand, you can draw somewhere there. If we're talking from 52 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:30.970 like budget resource mindshare, I think that the if you separate it out and I 53 00:03:30.970 --> 00:03:34.260 want to make this definition very clear because the reason that most companies 54 00:03:34.260 --> 00:03:39.450 use paid is two run lead gen, if you adjusted your strategy there and you 55 00:03:39.450 --> 00:03:44.660 use paid to distribute, then you have a very different set of activities that 56 00:03:44.660 --> 00:03:47.360 you could do with paid that I think would be much more effective. We've 57 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:51.080 actually demonstrated that at About 50 companies now that it can drive better 58 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:56.190 results. And so if you think about the split, I don't know the exact numbers, 59 00:03:56.190 --> 00:04:02.330 but I'd say it's somewhere between 60, 40, 40, 60 paid and owned. And my 60 00:04:02.330 --> 00:04:08.100 feeling is that through the execution of paid and owned you get turned and so 61 00:04:08.110 --> 00:04:10.630 that's the way that I look at it. That's the way that we've done it here 62 00:04:10.630 --> 00:04:14.110 and re find labs. We've had no effort, no time, nothing. Trying to pitch 63 00:04:14.110 --> 00:04:17.700 people to have me on their podcast or trying to pitch Forbes about why they 64 00:04:17.700 --> 00:04:20.790 should write an article about us trying to pitch a conference about why I 65 00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:24.410 should be the keynote speaker there but because we execute well on owned all 66 00:04:24.410 --> 00:04:28.180 those things come to us and so that's the way that I think companies should 67 00:04:28.180 --> 00:04:35.240 look at it crush owned. Do I execute paid well, get turned So I spend zero 68 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:40.480 time going after earns just let earn to come to you. You can do it if you want. 69 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:45.650 I just think it's well efficiency and I think that the mindset of if we execute 70 00:04:45.660 --> 00:04:49.890 owned well then we get earned forces you to do owned well, which is the most 71 00:04:49.890 --> 00:04:55.270 important. So when you going back, you said like a 60-40 between paid and 72 00:04:55.270 --> 00:04:59.860 owned do you or the otherwise right somewhere and somewhere in that range 73 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:04.580 and most people over indexing on paid, you would say cut back on some of that 74 00:05:04.580 --> 00:05:08.660 paid maybe go hire some more content marketers to beef up owned or would you 75 00:05:08.660 --> 00:05:13.230 have a different approach to hire content marketers to beef up paid, 76 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:18.230 Right? So when when you when you run paid like buying the ad is only one 77 00:05:18.230 --> 00:05:21.060 part of the equation, it's another huge misunderstanding inside of B two B. If 78 00:05:21.060 --> 00:05:24.880 you're running ECM google ads, like it's 2000 and nine. Yeah, all you need 79 00:05:24.880 --> 00:05:28.570 to do is just by the media, but where people actually consume content and 80 00:05:28.570 --> 00:05:31.570 were things that advertising channels that are actually very effective right 81 00:05:31.570 --> 00:05:36.580 now, like facebook instagram linkedin et cetera. It's not only buying the ad, 82 00:05:36.590 --> 00:05:39.650 it's about putting something in front of the people when once you buy the ad 83 00:05:39.650 --> 00:05:42.420 that they like that they consume that they engage with, that moves them 84 00:05:42.420 --> 00:05:46.370 forward in the buying process that helps them. And so the big mistake that 85 00:05:46.370 --> 00:05:49.880 companies make unpaid B2B companies generally is that they only think it's 86 00:05:49.880 --> 00:05:52.780 about buying the ad. I just need to target my decision makers. I need to 87 00:05:52.780 --> 00:05:57.370 buy the ad And that's it. As opposed to I need to put something in there as 88 00:05:57.370 --> 00:06:00.070 well. And that's why that's where the balance comes and we push back on 89 00:06:00.070 --> 00:06:03.680 companies a lot, whether there are customers or not to think about their 90 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:07.130 investment level for every dollar they spend on media, they need to spend 50 91 00:06:07.130 --> 00:06:11.010 cents to a dollar on content and creative And most companies will put 92 00:06:11.010 --> 00:06:15.900 together literally $250,000 a month budget for paid social Facebook 93 00:06:15.910 --> 00:06:21.520 Instagram linked in and they'll spend $250,000 on media and they'll spend 94 00:06:21.530 --> 00:06:26.160 $5,000 on creative and content and no wonder this doesn't work. I don't even 95 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:28.340 know if we're allowed to swear on here, but I'm feeling good. So I'm gonna do 96 00:06:28.340 --> 00:06:29.950 it. Think again. 97 00:06:32.140 --> 00:06:36.330 So with a massive emphasis on owned. One thing that I've always notice with 98 00:06:36.330 --> 00:06:39.820 your content is you spend very little time like developing and like a what 99 00:06:39.820 --> 00:06:43.660 would be a traditionally owned media property. I had to go back and try to 100 00:06:43.660 --> 00:06:46.990 like split up owned because there's so many different types of owned. You know, 101 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:51.520 you have your social media, I almost considered semi owned, right? Because 102 00:06:51.530 --> 00:06:54.990 Lincoln kind of owns it, You kind of own it. There's an algorithm in between 103 00:06:54.990 --> 00:06:57.250 you and your followers sometimes depending on how well you aren't 104 00:06:57.250 --> 00:07:02.010 reaching them. Even with podcasting, there's still an entity between you, so 105 00:07:02.010 --> 00:07:05.850 you don't really own it. And even with an email is even when you don't really 106 00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:09.170 own it, deliver ability. Gmail, right? This argument breaks down if you 107 00:07:09.170 --> 00:07:12.980 actually go into the details like you own them all and they're not, my view 108 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:18.200 is they're not semi owned, like you own your website, right? But what what does 109 00:07:18.200 --> 00:07:23.130 that do you with? Nothing else. I mean, I think to me the difference would be 110 00:07:23.140 --> 00:07:27.210 just in the fact that you're not dependent on one company, right? If 111 00:07:27.220 --> 00:07:30.860 Apple decides, they don't like you or decides they changed the way they 112 00:07:30.860 --> 00:07:34.880 deliver podcast or maybe they put an algorithm in it. So it's not delivering 113 00:07:34.880 --> 00:07:39.160 every single episode. It's a little bit different with email or text message or 114 00:07:39.540 --> 00:07:44.300 even direct mail because you can change vendors with it, you can kind of play 115 00:07:44.300 --> 00:07:47.620 with it now. But what really matters is the impact that you make while the 116 00:07:47.620 --> 00:07:53.440 channel works. Right, If apple podcast shut down tomorrow, all the people that 117 00:07:53.440 --> 00:07:58.040 listen to our podcast would be looking for somewhere else to listen to it and 118 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.740 they would go and find it on Youtube. They would find it on Spotify, they 119 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:05.740 would find it on the micro stuff that we post on linkedin or we would create 120 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:09.040 another one. And so the thing that people need to think about is you need 121 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:12.270 to get to a level where people seek out your content. That's the problem. 122 00:08:12.280 --> 00:08:15.090 You're relying on an algorithm to deliver your stuff and then once the 123 00:08:15.090 --> 00:08:18.490 algorithm goes away, people don't want it. You need to get to a place where 124 00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:22.810 people seek out your content and when you do that, you're not vulnerable to 125 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:26.730 the platform and algorithm changing. Yeah, I absolutely agree that you can 126 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:30.280 build demand with them. So I feel like as much as you can build demand with 127 00:08:30.280 --> 00:08:36.070 linkedin or podcasting, you could build demand with email. It's just another 128 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:40.030 totally you could build demand with any of these things totally. My my view, 129 00:08:40.030 --> 00:08:44.090 however, is that people pay way less attention to emails. I'll give people 130 00:08:44.090 --> 00:08:49.070 some really easy examples here I do this a lot. Imagine think about whether 131 00:08:49.070 --> 00:08:53.120 or not you'd be listening to me on this podcast two years later, if my main 132 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:58.750 strategy was to run S EO and send emails, nobody would know refined labs, 133 00:08:58.750 --> 00:09:02.340 we wouldn't have the talent that works here. We wouldn't have the customer 134 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:07.160 list in the logo list that we do. You wouldn't be listening to our content. 135 00:09:07.640 --> 00:09:11.260 It's because we put content in the places where you actually are and where 136 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:14.240 you actually pay attention. People are not paying attention anymore enough and 137 00:09:14.250 --> 00:09:20.430 email and otherwise it gets conflated a lot because in e commerce or super low 138 00:09:20.430 --> 00:09:24.240 products like low value product lead companies, you need to use email 139 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:27.810 because you can't afford the CAC. But when it comes down to it, if you're an 140 00:09:27.810 --> 00:09:31.520 enterprise B2B and your, your main strategy is gate content, put people 141 00:09:31.520 --> 00:09:35.140 through emails and just basically rely on email. It is a losing strategy from 142 00:09:35.140 --> 00:09:39.150 2011. So what would you say about media companies like the morning brewer, the 143 00:09:39.150 --> 00:09:43.370 hustle that hubspot just acquired. I know, I mean I listen to your podcast, 144 00:09:43.380 --> 00:09:47.270 it's fantastic. I listen to many other podcast. I also read the hustle most 145 00:09:47.280 --> 00:09:50.500 almost every morning I've tried a few different ones. The hustle just 146 00:09:50.510 --> 00:09:53.900 delivers the kind of content I want to read for some reason? And I'm usually 147 00:09:53.900 --> 00:09:57.400 reading it? I think a lot of other people are, would you consider that 148 00:09:57.400 --> 00:10:01.030 different than what you're talking about with email? I'm not sure I 149 00:10:01.030 --> 00:10:05.820 understand the question, like, like clearly some companies are winning with 150 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:08.460 it. I mean, otherwise hubspot wouldn't have paid all the money, they just paid 151 00:10:08.460 --> 00:10:11.700 for the hustle. So some people are doing it. Well, would you say that's 152 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:18.160 just that's those are exceptions totally, because the hustle is not 153 00:10:18.160 --> 00:10:21.580 trying to have a back end sales pitch for their software product afterwards. 154 00:10:21.590 --> 00:10:25.300 B two B companies can't do it because they don't actually provide value. 155 00:10:25.300 --> 00:10:28.300 They're just focused on driving you into their funnel. That's the reason 156 00:10:28.300 --> 00:10:31.860 why it doesn't work. Publishers have a bunch of success with it 157 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:36.370 because they're only focus is that the people consume the email and that they 158 00:10:36.370 --> 00:10:40.990 like it. But when you move that into a B2B company, B2B companies are not 159 00:10:40.990 --> 00:10:43.560 thinking about how do I make this valuable for this person? They're 160 00:10:43.560 --> 00:10:47.660 thinking about how do I get them to become an SQL? And that's why the 161 00:10:47.660 --> 00:10:51.420 content sucks and that's why email doesn't work. And so companies, I 162 00:10:51.420 --> 00:10:54.630 encourage companies to think about restructuring their organizations so 163 00:10:54.630 --> 00:10:58.720 that they can create a space where marketers can think like publishers, so 164 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:01.830 it's less about the medium really and more about the intent behind the 165 00:11:01.830 --> 00:11:06.160 content, are you trying to build an audience? Are you trying to convert 166 00:11:06.160 --> 00:11:09.790 them? If you're trying to build an audience then? I mean, some channels 167 00:11:09.790 --> 00:11:11.950 are gonna be better than others because some are going to be on their way out, 168 00:11:11.950 --> 00:11:15.090 so we're gonna be on the way in. You want to ride the ones that are, you 169 00:11:15.090 --> 00:11:18.360 know, you're on the, you know, the beginning of the swell with the wave. 170 00:11:18.740 --> 00:11:22.430 Yeah, when it comes down to it, like, if you came to me and you said you only 171 00:11:22.430 --> 00:11:25.670 can pick one would, and this is like the way that I'm communicating here, 172 00:11:25.670 --> 00:11:29.150 like you can only pick one Lincoln or email, it's linked in hands down. 173 00:11:30.340 --> 00:11:33.770 And so I know that other people can run other channels, but the thing that 174 00:11:33.770 --> 00:11:37.590 people do, if you exclude the hustle and some of the major ones that are 175 00:11:37.590 --> 00:11:40.160 crushing emails, you can find the same thing, You can compare that to joe 176 00:11:40.160 --> 00:11:43.310 Rogan's podcast. Right? So if you look at it more in the masses than the at 177 00:11:43.310 --> 00:11:48.670 the outliers, then, like, you need to be able to put that, you need to be 178 00:11:48.670 --> 00:11:51.120 able to put that stuff in the channels, you know, and you need to be able to 179 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:57.080 put them into places where you can get the highest impact at that time, And 180 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:01.330 the highest impact channels, like it's clear in for a B2B company organic 181 00:12:01.330 --> 00:12:04.880 right now podcasts and linked in are the number one opportunities. And so 182 00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:09.090 what companies do instead is they spend all their effort on email and then they 183 00:12:09.090 --> 00:12:12.780 don't succeed in the places that have the best opportunities, You know, it's 184 00:12:12.780 --> 00:12:16.950 funny, I've been hearing it said maybe for over a decade now that companies 185 00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:20.150 need to be media companies. I feel like people have been banging that drum for 186 00:12:20.150 --> 00:12:24.750 a long time. I can't find an original reference to it. Maybe joe Pelosi, 187 00:12:24.750 --> 00:12:29.000 Pelosi would be one of those guys that's been saying that for a long time, 188 00:12:29.010 --> 00:12:33.890 but I feel like hardly anybody does this, right? And most people at best 189 00:12:33.890 --> 00:12:37.350 have a blog, right? Where they're talking about maybe some content 190 00:12:37.350 --> 00:12:40.750 related, just not directly to their product. They're talking more generally, 191 00:12:40.750 --> 00:12:44.520 but very few do. So I've seen a few. You had one on your show recently. I 192 00:12:44.520 --> 00:12:48.270 think the recorded future has their own little separate website where they're 193 00:12:48.270 --> 00:12:52.440 grading journalistic type content for the industry. Would you think That's a 194 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.160 smart strategy for for a variety of companies? Maybe most B2B companies to 195 00:12:56.160 --> 00:12:59.410 build a separate media entity. I'm not sure what to call that. It's different 196 00:12:59.410 --> 00:13:03.180 than just doing media in a blog. I don't think that you necessarily need 197 00:13:03.180 --> 00:13:07.900 to make it separate. Is the thing, I think that you need to think like I'll 198 00:13:07.900 --> 00:13:12.610 go back to why companies can't do this, right? So it's obvious that if you 199 00:13:12.610 --> 00:13:16.310 thought like a publisher and you and then you created content that was 200 00:13:16.310 --> 00:13:19.890 associated with your brand. But the content was built on helping people 201 00:13:19.890 --> 00:13:23.170 with zero intent about they're buying your product. People will pretend that 202 00:13:23.170 --> 00:13:26.620 they do, but they don't, if you did that, then you would have a much more 203 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:30.120 successful business long term. The reason that companies can't do it is 204 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:32.770 because the people that would be responsible for architect in those 205 00:13:32.770 --> 00:13:37.290 programs are responsible for hitting short term metrics and they get pulled 206 00:13:37.290 --> 00:13:41.470 into all of the garbage self centered company stuff so they can't succeed on 207 00:13:41.470 --> 00:13:44.320 a podcast. And so if you wanted this to be successful in the reason why 208 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:49.010 software companies go out and acquire these companies is because they can't 209 00:13:49.010 --> 00:13:54.330 do it themselves. But if you if you did like it's not that you can't, it's that 210 00:13:54.330 --> 00:13:57.990 you set yourself up in a position where it would always fail if you did. And so 211 00:13:57.990 --> 00:14:02.040 if you change the structure and you said we're going to take for $100 212 00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:06.810 million air, our SAAS company, We're going to take four people, we're gonna 213 00:14:06.810 --> 00:14:10.680 put them out over here and all they're responsible for is creating information 214 00:14:10.680 --> 00:14:14.910 that our buyers love on that team. We're gonna have somebody that's a 215 00:14:14.920 --> 00:14:19.610 social expert, just content distribution expert. We're going to 216 00:14:19.610 --> 00:14:23.580 have an actual expert who has been our customer before and our customers trust 217 00:14:23.580 --> 00:14:27.950 them, We're going to have a creative person that can take the content and 218 00:14:27.950 --> 00:14:31.370 package it and move it, put it into different places and we're gonna have 219 00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:34.380 somebody that's going to completely architect the strategy and kind of pull 220 00:14:34.380 --> 00:14:37.770 all the strings, figure out the topics, all those things. We're gonna take 221 00:14:37.770 --> 00:14:41.220 those four people and we're gonna let that run for two years and we're not 222 00:14:41.220 --> 00:14:43.500 going to scrutinize them against leeds. We're not going to scrutinize them 223 00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:48.050 against attribution. We're going to look at what our buyers say about the 224 00:14:48.050 --> 00:14:53.020 content. We're gonna look at how many people are subscribing and then when 225 00:14:53.020 --> 00:14:56.180 they, when we use gong on our sales, cause we're going to track how many 226 00:14:56.180 --> 00:14:59.960 people mention our podcast within the first five minutes of the sales call. 227 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:03.680 We're going to do those types of things and then we're gonna be able to 228 00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:07.760 actually set this thing up to work. And so that that's the recommendation. Like 229 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.790 I have no idea why a company wouldn't do that. Especially at the scale that 230 00:15:10.790 --> 00:15:13.290 I'm talking about 100 millionaire are, that's a drop in the bucket. In terms 231 00:15:13.290 --> 00:15:16.900 of your overall, Overall, you got 50 marketers running around sending emails 232 00:15:16.900 --> 00:15:19.460 and doing gated content and stuff. You can't put four over here and do 233 00:15:19.460 --> 00:15:23.160 something helpful for your buyer. So that's what I would recommend if you 234 00:15:23.160 --> 00:15:27.110 think about it, whether it's separate or together. I actually would prefer it 235 00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:30.200 to be together. Right? So like state of dementia and podcast refined labs 236 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:32.820 together, I think it's more clear what's going on. I think as long as you 237 00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:37.020 can have a clear division between church and state, so to speak, in the 238 00:15:37.020 --> 00:15:41.310 level of intent so that people aren't reached. So that's, you know, Mark 239 00:15:41.310 --> 00:15:46.580 performance marketers or salespeople are not reaching in to your podcast. 240 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:50.960 Try to pull out leads. Makes a lot of sense, but you're not saying that it's 241 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.560 impossible to do. It's just that in the current state of most companies, the 242 00:15:54.560 --> 00:15:57.880 way they're incentivized is never going to allow that to fly, but they could 243 00:15:57.880 --> 00:16:01.340 restructure to do it. It's clearly possible, right? There's there's plenty 244 00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:07.100 of companies that have done it recorded future. Um, the record is one example 245 00:16:07.110 --> 00:16:11.540 drift had a really good thing going for a while, um, as well. So there are 246 00:16:11.540 --> 00:16:18.070 examples of companies that have been able to do this and the key is having a 247 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:21.340 marketing leader that really knows how to execute it and a Ceo that's really 248 00:16:21.340 --> 00:16:23.940 bought in and then you set up a structure whether you need to put the 249 00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:27.250 team on the side because that's the only way that it will succeed or you 250 00:16:27.250 --> 00:16:31.410 have alignment between sales ceo and marketing that this is a strategic 251 00:16:31.410 --> 00:16:34.430 priority that you're going to do because it's truly effective, everyone 252 00:16:34.430 --> 00:16:38.540 buys in either way of those situations can work. But what I found interacting 253 00:16:38.540 --> 00:16:42.380 with hundreds of companies is that for a majority, the only way that it 254 00:16:42.380 --> 00:16:46.110 actually has a shot of working is by creating a separate team and you're a 255 00:16:46.110 --> 00:16:50.100 much bigger fan of creating content where people are so they can consume it, 256 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:53.640 we're on the platform is already on rather than creating a content hub, 257 00:16:53.650 --> 00:16:57.260 more like the record. I mean it's, I mean Gary v has been doing it for a 258 00:16:57.260 --> 00:17:01.690 long time, like he, he spends hardly any time promoting his Gary Vaynerchuk 259 00:17:01.690 --> 00:17:05.819 dot com, he's usually being consumed on every other platform out there. You 260 00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:09.150 would say that's the better route than having a home base. Just think about it. 261 00:17:09.150 --> 00:17:13.579 Right? So just think about if I took my linkedin video, which I can pull it up 262 00:17:13.579 --> 00:17:20.260 right now, probably. So my linkedin video from yesterday Which has gotten 263 00:17:20.270 --> 00:17:26.300 14,000 views on a five minute video. And so, and the reason that I got 264 00:17:26.300 --> 00:17:30.070 14,000 views, it's because it's because the videos in the feed so that someone 265 00:17:30.070 --> 00:17:33.920 sees it, they can watch it and they can continue on natively. And if I took 266 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.500 that exact same video and I put a picture and then I said, hey, click off 267 00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:43.220 onto chris walker dot com So you can watch this four minute video instead of 268 00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:48.430 14,000 people watching it. Probably 14 people would and that's the reason that 269 00:17:48.430 --> 00:17:52.870 we don't push people off social social is built for native consumption. That's 270 00:17:52.870 --> 00:17:56.180 what people want to do, remove friction every other company because they're 271 00:17:56.190 --> 00:18:00.700 obsessed with clicks and google analytics and all the all the old stuff 272 00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:03.330 outdated stuff in my view that marketers have been trained to do. They 273 00:18:03.330 --> 00:18:06.930 try and push people onto their own website and they miss out on all the 274 00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:11.470 opportunity. Would you say there's a certain set of owned media sites that 275 00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:14.920 you would go after? I usually think of it as in terms of like a short form 276 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:19.550 site and a long form site linkedin podcasting. Do you recommend any other 277 00:18:19.550 --> 00:18:22.840 ones? Are there certain things you're looking for when companies are setting 278 00:18:22.840 --> 00:18:26.360 up their own media for the first time that you may correct that you recommend? 279 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:32.660 So if you exclude website from this equation then, um, I'm looking for like 280 00:18:32.660 --> 00:18:36.150 the system that we've created, I call it, it's like an event fly. We also, 281 00:18:36.150 --> 00:18:40.210 you have an event. The event becomes a podcast. The content from the event 282 00:18:40.210 --> 00:18:43.800 becomes linked in content and then you can also put it on Youtube. So you kind 283 00:18:43.800 --> 00:18:49.000 of get three or four channels in one. Um, and so that's the like the base 284 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:51.820 case you're doing all the same, the same amount of work. You're just 285 00:18:51.820 --> 00:18:55.110 putting on a couple of other channels. But generally I recommend for people 286 00:18:55.110 --> 00:18:58.400 and that's, that's taking us probably a year from when we started on linked in 287 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:02.760 to actually get to that type of cadence. But the recommendation is a process 288 00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:06.530 that I call stacking growth, which means that you need to get one channel 289 00:19:06.530 --> 00:19:11.020 to work first before you work on the next five. And so what companies again, 290 00:19:11.020 --> 00:19:15.030 we'll do, we'll check the box on, I'm going to have an instagram channel and 291 00:19:15.030 --> 00:19:17.910 we gonna post to R 14 followers and we're gonna take our linkedin company 292 00:19:17.910 --> 00:19:20.400 page and we're gonna post to R 200 followers and most of them are 293 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.580 employees and we're gonna post a podcast once every two months that 294 00:19:23.580 --> 00:19:26.980 nobody listens to and we're gonna send automated emails to people. You get 295 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:29.310 what I'm saying, right? And so they spread out their focus that none of 296 00:19:29.310 --> 00:19:31.960 them actually work and then they just kind of like 297 00:19:33.040 --> 00:19:36.130 spin their wheels aren't stuff. And so the recommendation is figure out your 298 00:19:36.130 --> 00:19:38.260 number one, which for us, it was linked in 299 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:43.260 Number one. Get that thing to actually drive results, results being customers 300 00:19:43.260 --> 00:19:47.970 and revenue. Not, I got a lot of likes, get that to work and then figure out 301 00:19:47.970 --> 00:19:51.000 what you need to stack on top of it. So if there was a logical sequence, like 302 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:56.300 what we did was linked in and then we went to events and then the events 303 00:19:56.300 --> 00:20:00.250 moved added into a podcast, the podcast added into Youtube and next we're going 304 00:20:00.250 --> 00:20:04.690 to go into Tiktok. That's like the process. It's interesting with Tiktok 305 00:20:04.860 --> 00:20:07.620 tiktok and twitter, even though I feel like twitter is making a little bit of 306 00:20:07.620 --> 00:20:10.790 a comeback and there's more marketers there. Are you just forcing more 307 00:20:10.790 --> 00:20:16.000 marketers being there in the future. I'm tapping around on twitter. However, 308 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.780 again, looking back to like the comparison made between linked in an 309 00:20:19.780 --> 00:20:24.970 email. If the, if the conversation is tiktok or twitter, I'm choosing Tiktok 310 00:20:24.970 --> 00:20:29.100 every day because the upside is just way higher. Twitter has been around for 311 00:20:29.100 --> 00:20:34.550 15 years. It's like there's, there's too much content, not enough eyeballs, 312 00:20:34.550 --> 00:20:40.270 it's just a, it's a mess. And so I would just like given limited resources 313 00:20:40.270 --> 00:20:43.090 and you have to make choices. A lot of people would choose to do both and they 314 00:20:43.090 --> 00:20:46.670 would do both mediocre to below average. I'm gonna pick one. I'm gonna try and 315 00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:50.370 do it above average to the best when I approach a channel, whether it's 316 00:20:50.370 --> 00:20:55.440 podcaster linked in my goal was how do I become the best For B- two B 317 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.660 marketing on that channel? Um and I think that's a mindset that other 318 00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:04.510 people should take. How do you know, you've kind of reached a point where 319 00:21:04.510 --> 00:21:07.840 you're ready to branch off to the next thing, Is it to the point where you're 320 00:21:07.840 --> 00:21:10.800 generating revenue for it, maybe a couple quarters in a row, Like where do 321 00:21:10.800 --> 00:21:14.000 you, where do you draw the line for that when you start to produce enough 322 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.460 revenue and profit? Well in my business profit and venture funded companies 323 00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:20.650 revenue and acceptable customer acquisition costs where you produce 324 00:21:20.650 --> 00:21:25.180 enough revenue, where your, where your company is giving you more resources to 325 00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:29.090 make this go faster and then when you have the opportunity to make it go 326 00:21:29.090 --> 00:21:33.110 faster, you need to make good choices about where you go from there. Need to 327 00:21:33.110 --> 00:21:37.330 get to keep the snowball rolling, keep delivery more and more results, keep 328 00:21:37.330 --> 00:21:41.420 getting more and more budget, keep expanding channels and innovating. All 329 00:21:41.420 --> 00:21:43.160 right. And it seems like 330 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:48.840 the way you approach most owned media channels in the way you've been able to 331 00:21:48.840 --> 00:21:52.120 build audiences mainly through thought leadership content, would you say it's 332 00:21:52.120 --> 00:21:55.240 like a mix of something else or is it mainly just you leading with your point 333 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:59.820 of view? Um of course it's more, I don't know, I feel like I think about 334 00:21:59.820 --> 00:22:02.680 like the strategic narrative, I think about the brand, there's a lot of 335 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.440 different elements to it, would you say it's mostly thought leadership pushed 336 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:10.080 driving your content for it? So I've been coming up with a new term on this 337 00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:16.070 one just because I think thought leadership is stale and misinterpreted 338 00:22:16.070 --> 00:22:21.640 and the execution of it is generally poor. And so I'm calling it category 339 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.850 marketing, which is what we're doing. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm 340 00:22:24.850 --> 00:22:29.030 trying to get people to understand that the ideas that we believe in and how 341 00:22:29.030 --> 00:22:34.130 the world is changing matters, how buyers are changing matters and if they 342 00:22:34.130 --> 00:22:36.630 don't, if they want to get left behind, they can keep doing the things that 343 00:22:36.630 --> 00:22:39.580 they're doing. If they want to be on the forefront, get an edge on 344 00:22:39.580 --> 00:22:43.620 competitors continuously get further and further ahead in terms of marketing. 345 00:22:43.620 --> 00:22:46.940 Sophistication and their competitive set then they should consider moving on 346 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:50.890 this now. And that's what, that's the way that I look at it? I think the 347 00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:54.830 thought leadership typically becomes a top of the funnel. Let's get someone 348 00:22:54.830 --> 00:23:00.520 into a webinar so we can move them into our funnel. Um and that's not my intent 349 00:23:00.520 --> 00:23:04.130 at all with this content or information, Another big part of it that I don't 350 00:23:04.130 --> 00:23:08.850 think I don't see thought leadership getting executed a lot is that the 351 00:23:08.850 --> 00:23:13.330 people that listen to my content can get enormous amounts of value without 352 00:23:13.330 --> 00:23:17.560 paying us a cent. They can go and take away. We give away a lot of our best 353 00:23:17.560 --> 00:23:21.900 stuff we give away frameworks and processes that most people would never 354 00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:26.180 find or develop on their own and can go and execute. We have cmos that listen 355 00:23:26.180 --> 00:23:29.220 to listen to my stuff on linkedin and go and get way better results for their 356 00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:34.180 business for free while they also waste thousands, tens of thousands of dollars 357 00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:39.370 with agencies that suck. So there's a big point in that, which is that if 358 00:23:39.370 --> 00:23:43.120 they can't listen to your free content and go and do something with it, then 359 00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:48.650 you also have an issue man. So circling back to paid media and how that 360 00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:53.020 influences your own media. So you're running a lot of these ideas, your your 361 00:23:53.020 --> 00:23:56.310 category marketing on paid media and you're trying to influence people. 362 00:23:56.310 --> 00:23:59.860 You're trying to give them ideas that are actionable that are useful for them, 363 00:24:00.340 --> 00:24:04.990 but you're not using it to point to any any other property. Are you just, are 364 00:24:04.990 --> 00:24:09.720 you running video ads on linkedin and just letting the idea set for itself 365 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:10.770 with no call to action. 366 00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:15.810 So in our paid mixes a little bit more complex than what you laid forward 367 00:24:15.810 --> 00:24:19.460 there. So we, for up until this point, just for the listeners to get up into 368 00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:22.300 this point, we've been talking about own channels, typically organic 369 00:24:22.300 --> 00:24:27.370 distribution and now we're moving into paid and so in the paid mix, some of 370 00:24:27.370 --> 00:24:29.850 the organic content that we're producing, category marketing is going 371 00:24:29.850 --> 00:24:33.740 to go in there. We're also going to have more like a full funnel mix. So 372 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:38.900 lower final things that more focus on the product tested, case studies and 373 00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:43.200 social proof features and features and value propositions, things like that. 374 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.210 So the whole set, the reason that we do it is because we guarantee distribution 375 00:24:47.210 --> 00:24:50.560 to people in organic, you don't have guaranteed distribution. Whoever is in 376 00:24:50.560 --> 00:24:52.980 your audience is going to see it and then it gets amplified with organic 377 00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:57.810 reach and you don't have any real control over who's saying that. And so 378 00:24:57.810 --> 00:25:02.350 the advantage on paid is I can say, okay, I'm going out, my target buyer is 379 00:25:02.360 --> 00:25:06.990 CFOs and VP of finance at companies that are 200 to 2000 employees that are 380 00:25:06.990 --> 00:25:11.200 texas and so I'm gonna go and take that target? I'm gonna make that, I'm gonna 381 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.490 make that audience and then I'm going to guarantee the delivery of this 382 00:25:15.490 --> 00:25:19.240 information, whether it's a video, a picture etcetera, To all of those 383 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.930 people. And I'm going on Facebook and Instagram and pay one cent To give a 384 00:25:22.930 --> 00:25:28.310 CFO this message and I'm linked in. I'm gonna pay four cents to give a CFO this 385 00:25:28.310 --> 00:25:32.540 message. And that's the way that I think about paid media. But what other 386 00:25:32.540 --> 00:25:36.420 people do as they say, I'm going to go and take, I'm gonna build the exact 387 00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:40.600 same audience. And then I'm going to think nothing about the content of the 388 00:25:40.600 --> 00:25:43.430 creative and I'm gonna optimize to collect email addresses and I'm going 389 00:25:43.430 --> 00:25:47.410 to try and have my SDRs call them or run them through market animation. And 390 00:25:47.410 --> 00:25:50.560 so people don't, people don't have a good enough understanding of respect 391 00:25:50.560 --> 00:25:53.480 for how different those strategies are. They just look at it oh, it's paid 392 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:57.610 media. Those two strategies are incredibly different from a result 393 00:25:57.610 --> 00:26:02.170 standpoint, from an intense standpoint, from an operational like requirements 394 00:26:02.170 --> 00:26:06.790 standpoint. And so that's really the difference of what we're doing. But the 395 00:26:06.790 --> 00:26:12.680 key on paid is that I'm guaranteeing delivery to people that I want and an 396 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:16.260 organic, it's free, but you don't have as much control over who sees it. 397 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:22.500 So does it just become more of a brand play like them being educated by the 398 00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:26.860 content that you're paying to syndicate. But they're becoming familiar with you, 399 00:26:26.860 --> 00:26:32.060 your brand name is becoming synonymous with the ideas, it's like a tv 400 00:26:32.060 --> 00:26:36.900 commercial, This is a modern television commercial and B2B except instead of on 401 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:40.040 television where you can't target people. I can give it to exactly who I 402 00:26:40.040 --> 00:26:44.660 want. And then I create my television commercial or I build my billboard if 403 00:26:44.660 --> 00:26:48.890 it's a picture and then I put it in the channel and I'm not looking when 404 00:26:48.890 --> 00:26:51.990 someone watched the television commercial very railway. Like they see 405 00:26:51.990 --> 00:26:55.460 a ford F 1 50 commercial, they're not going to their phone and saying, I want 406 00:26:55.460 --> 00:26:59.290 to quote this F 1 50 right now, it's the same thing. And so that's what 407 00:26:59.290 --> 00:27:02.080 we're doing for software, running television commercials were making 408 00:27:02.080 --> 00:27:04.530 billboards. We're targeting appropriately. We're giving it to 409 00:27:04.530 --> 00:27:09.310 people where people see them. It's really not that complicated. And so 410 00:27:09.320 --> 00:27:13.260 because companies are so focused on attribution, on measuring things on 411 00:27:13.270 --> 00:27:17.110 direct response lead gen, let's give our SDR is a bunch of emails and phone 412 00:27:17.110 --> 00:27:21.410 numbers to pound because they're focused on that stuff. They're paid mix 413 00:27:21.410 --> 00:27:25.790 turns into that stuff. And so I'm just, I'm offering an alternative that makes 414 00:27:25.790 --> 00:27:28.940 way more sense and drives better results. What I'm trying to understand 415 00:27:28.940 --> 00:27:32.080 is like, what is the creative actually look like? Are you just creatively 416 00:27:32.080 --> 00:27:36.310 presenting the product? I think you're from what I've seen before. Your you're 417 00:27:36.310 --> 00:27:39.240 taking essentially what you're putting organically out there and just running 418 00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:43.820 paid media behind it. Yeah. So organic, like the videos that you see in 419 00:27:43.820 --> 00:27:48.140 Arlington would be one example of what we could do that might be like 15% of 420 00:27:48.140 --> 00:27:51.520 the mix, right? There's other ones that are gonna be way more like product 421 00:27:51.520 --> 00:27:56.470 oriented, there's gonna be some that are more heavy design or animations or 422 00:27:56.470 --> 00:28:00.630 those things. And so the, from a creative standpoint, the point is that 423 00:28:00.630 --> 00:28:04.440 you have a ton of flexibility in what you can do when you get away from the 424 00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:08.180 lead gen mindset companies can't do any of the stuff that I'm talking about 425 00:28:08.180 --> 00:28:11.650 when they're in legion mode. And so once you, if you can get yourself out 426 00:28:11.650 --> 00:28:16.390 of that, you can think about, I'm gonna take that video of our ceo doing a 427 00:28:16.390 --> 00:28:20.230 fireside chat with one of our best customers and I'm gonna take that and 428 00:28:20.230 --> 00:28:22.890 then I'm gonna run it to all the other companies that are just like that 429 00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:26.840 customer. And then do you retarget based on percentage watched or you just 430 00:28:26.840 --> 00:28:32.180 kind of run like a mix of ads that have target varying intense down the funnel 431 00:28:32.190 --> 00:28:36.750 to one audience because we don't think about it like a funnel, we don't run 432 00:28:36.760 --> 00:28:41.380 retargeting like we're selling a $60 hat on instagram ads. So like, yes, we 433 00:28:41.380 --> 00:28:45.340 have re targeting audiences but not like I'm not Trying to think about 434 00:28:45.340 --> 00:28:48.960 someone buying $100,000 year software tool in a three step funnel on linkedin 435 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.230 is just not the way that it works because all those funnels end up on End 436 00:28:53.230 --> 00:28:59.020 up in one place, get a demo ad legion And when you end up, get a demo at 437 00:28:59.020 --> 00:29:02.730 legion, it doesn't matter whether that person watched the 50, of the video 438 00:29:02.730 --> 00:29:05.620 before they're gonna go in there and you're gonna win almost none of them 439 00:29:05.630 --> 00:29:08.400 because it doesn't align with how buyers buy from a direct response 440 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.350 intense standpoint. And so what we've, we've run tests on this before I can 441 00:29:12.360 --> 00:29:15.950 eventually try and pull pull data and show this for people in a large scale. 442 00:29:15.950 --> 00:29:19.220 But it doesn't matter whether you had three steps in your funnel or one step 443 00:29:19.220 --> 00:29:22.630 if you, if the ending point is, hey, get a demo ad, come fill up my landing 444 00:29:22.630 --> 00:29:25.680 page, the conversion rates are gonna be the same. The conversion rates are 445 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:29.670 really bad, customer acquisition cost is very high. So we don't do it that 446 00:29:29.670 --> 00:29:34.940 way. Okay, so you have a mix mix of adds, some are speaking more to the 447 00:29:34.940 --> 00:29:38.670 product, some more of the broader idea. Um, and you're just getting them a mix 448 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:44.610 of them out in front of the audience. Yeah. And over time, if you thought 449 00:29:44.610 --> 00:29:47.250 about this in a different way where you actually invest appropriately and 450 00:29:47.250 --> 00:29:52.730 creative and content, then you could create a different video for your 451 00:29:52.730 --> 00:29:57.850 target market every day and you could put that on linkedin and facebook where 452 00:29:57.850 --> 00:30:03.630 they spend time every day and you could communicate ideas that right now you 453 00:30:03.630 --> 00:30:08.500 wait for someone to get in a demo with your sales team to communicate. And so 454 00:30:08.500 --> 00:30:13.170 you don't reach most of the market. And so instead of doing that, you could 455 00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:17.520 give that to everybody in the market to teach them things to start internal 456 00:30:17.520 --> 00:30:22.750 conversations and word of mouth and they would eventually start to see the 457 00:30:22.750 --> 00:30:25.850 problems that you're talking about in their business and be more likely and 458 00:30:25.850 --> 00:30:29.380 open to solving them and when they do that they're gonna be more likely to do 459 00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:33.950 it with you. And so that is about the easiest way that I can explain it, 460 00:30:35.040 --> 00:30:38.940 wow. So it's been fun to have you on the show and clarify a bunch of things 461 00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:43.930 after, I think after you watch somebody on all these platforms for a while, you 462 00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:47.500 know, I think I see most of your linkedin posts, I've listened to most 463 00:30:47.500 --> 00:30:51.240 of the podcast, but after a while you have to wonder about a lot of the in 464 00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.230 between, right? There's all these in between things, which to me is like 465 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.280 sometimes that's why a book is helpful of course, because it can fill in those 466 00:30:58.280 --> 00:31:05.540 gaps, but at the same time I won't deny that it's working. I mean we've we've 467 00:31:05.540 --> 00:31:08.880 even asked B two B marketers like who is the top influencer pain too and your 468 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:13.120 name, you and Dave Gearhart are probably, I can't see if there's like a 469 00:31:13.120 --> 00:31:15.810 winner between them and we asked 100 B two B marketers who is coming up 470 00:31:15.810 --> 00:31:20.820 towards the top people influencing B two B marketers today. So Without an 471 00:31:20.820 --> 00:31:24.870 email list, without a site that you're pulling people back to, you certainly 472 00:31:24.870 --> 00:31:29.310 have the attention of the B- two B marketing world. So it's been fun to 473 00:31:29.310 --> 00:31:32.010 have you on the show, kind of get some of these details. Is there anything 474 00:31:32.010 --> 00:31:35.200 else you would share that we haven't covered for B two B marketers 475 00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:39.140 specifically around owned media? Were they getting stuck? How can they fix it? 476 00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:43.970 The number one place that B two B companies get stuck on owned media is 477 00:31:43.970 --> 00:31:48.580 because their attribution models set it up to fail. And so we've created 478 00:31:48.580 --> 00:31:53.060 something very easy. We've tested it on our business, we're rolling it out on 479 00:31:53.060 --> 00:31:56.000 our customers. We have data from several saAS companies about how it 480 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.830 works, which is what I would consider self reported attribution, otherwise 481 00:32:00.830 --> 00:32:06.050 known as common sense attribution. And so what we do is we just add a field on 482 00:32:06.050 --> 00:32:08.960 the form where the revenue comes from and says, how did you hear about us? 483 00:32:09.340 --> 00:32:12.310 And then the people tell you, and it's fascinating what they say and what they 484 00:32:12.320 --> 00:32:15.400 write, and it gives credit to all of the things that we're talking about. So 485 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.190 if you believe in these things, if you believe in running the podcast on 486 00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:21.320 posting content on Lincoln that people love and creating events that people 487 00:32:21.320 --> 00:32:25.740 love not to go and get leads, then you could do all of these things. If you 488 00:32:25.740 --> 00:32:28.800 had attribution set up in that way. So that some of the examples that we get 489 00:32:28.810 --> 00:32:34.460 is we get people that say I heard about you from dan Sanchez in peak community. 490 00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:39.420 Dave Gerhardt told me about your podcast, I started listening to it and 491 00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:41.730 then I saw one of your employees on linkedin. I've been following them for 492 00:32:41.730 --> 00:32:45.160 a while and now I'm here on your website converting and then attribution 493 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:49.970 software says, oh this lead came from organic search and so if you adjust 494 00:32:49.970 --> 00:32:53.880 your attribution model in a way that makes it that I think reflects common 495 00:32:53.880 --> 00:33:00.000 sense, then you can show all how much these things work. And it and it's 496 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:03.770 funny as well because the companies that run heavy on paid and are obsessed 497 00:33:03.770 --> 00:33:07.660 with attribution and habit, they only look at the attribution on the leads, 498 00:33:08.540 --> 00:33:12.530 They don't look at the attribution on when people became customers and they 499 00:33:12.530 --> 00:33:16.240 don't look at how much it costs them to get those customers. And so it's just 500 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:21.090 funny Consistently get fascinated by how companies pretend that they are 501 00:33:21.090 --> 00:33:24.940 data driven and then they just never analyzed the data because if they do it, 502 00:33:24.950 --> 00:33:30.190 I've done it with 50 companies and the data is always shows that the main 503 00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:34.990 things that companies spend money on don't work where there you go chris 504 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.020 thank you so much for joining me on B two B growth where can people connect 505 00:33:38.020 --> 00:33:42.730 with you online. I know your papa on linkedin and uh on the podcast of 506 00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:46.750 course, but you mentioned youtube and I didn't even know youtube was becoming a 507 00:33:46.750 --> 00:33:49.690 thing for you. Yeah, we're getting youtube going, it's under refined labs, 508 00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:54.320 not chris walker, so feel free to check it out there. Um we are working on 509 00:33:54.330 --> 00:33:58.110 adopt like basically up to this point it's been take the video version of the 510 00:33:58.110 --> 00:34:01.040 podcast and put it on youtube. Obviously that's a sub optimal strategy 511 00:34:01.040 --> 00:34:05.560 or putting more resources to it now to shorten clips, work on Youtube shorts, 512 00:34:05.560 --> 00:34:10.730 et cetera. And so yeah, if you wanna, you wanna, we're gonna build it 513 00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:13.380 publicly I guess. So if you want to watch how we build it and the things 514 00:34:13.380 --> 00:34:16.590 that we test, I think there's a, there's a lot of value in looking at 515 00:34:16.600 --> 00:34:21.040 people watching what people that know what they're doing. Do you can also 516 00:34:21.040 --> 00:34:25.360 find me on linkedin chris walker or on the state of demand gen podcast on half 517 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:28.760 one Spotify. Fantastic. Thanks again for joining me on the show. 518 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:35.239 Yeah. One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that 519 00:34:35.250 --> 00:34:40.060 word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love 520 00:34:40.060 --> 00:34:43.659 this show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it 521 00:34:44.040 --> 00:34:47.460 and if you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your 522 00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:51.449 friend meta. I know I'll send you a copy of my book, content based 523 00:34:51.449 --> 00:34:55.239 networking how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell 524 00:34:55.239 --> 00:35:01.050 phone number is 40749033 to 8 Happy texting.