Aug. 24, 2022

The Most Over-Rated Trend in B2B Marketing | Original Research

We spoke with 100 marketing leaders and asked "What’s the most overrated trend in B2B marketing?" In this roundtable discussion Benji, James, and Dan, break down the findings.
Discussed in this episode:
The pendulum in marketing channels and mediums...

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We spoke with 100 marketing leaders and asked "What’s the most overrated trend in B2B marketing?" In this roundtable discussion Benji, James, and Dan, break down the findings.
Discussed in this episode:
The pendulum in marketing channels and mediums
ABM as more than a buzzword
Why creating content with your ideal client is a game-changer
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.480 Welcome in. On today's episode of B Two B growth, we're gonna be 3 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:27.199 talking over some some overrated trends, and we had the privilege recently, like 4 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:30.280 in the last couple of years, of sitting down with a hundred marketing leaders 5 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:36.200 and asking fifteen original research questions. We're tackling one of those on this episode 6 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:40.560 today. With me we have James Carberry and Dan Sanchez and we're gonna dig 7 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:46.119 into the findings around the following question. What's the most overrated trend in B 8 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.840 two B marketing? Before we do that, like, let's just talk about 9 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:52.920 how this research was conducted for a second, James, because I think it's 10 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.640 important context, and then we'll dive into the question. Tell me a little 11 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.840 bit about the process of of getting this research and compiling because it was actually 12 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:03.719 before I was was on the team even. Yeah, so the original idea 13 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.879 is that we would actually like charge for this original research and that we would 14 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:12.159 do it quarterly. And we're like, we're we're already having all these conversations 15 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:17.000 with B two B marketing practitioners on B twob growth. Why don't we just 16 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:22.000 tack on some questions into the pre interview of the Post interview and we'll compile 17 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:26.439 this research. It will be qualitative instead of the typical like surveys that are 18 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:33.239 just quantitative. And boy did I not realize how much of a massive undertaking 19 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:38.599 this would be. So we started this in started the conversations and we decided 20 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:41.799 that we wanted to try to get to a hundred. I can't remember what 21 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.280 the original number was. We're like, you know what it'll sound sexi or 22 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:49.799 if we have a hundred people that we've we've asked these questions too. So 23 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.799 we kept pushing through. We got lost in the slog of it because organizing 24 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.359 everybody's answers, you've got to transcribe everything, you've got to figure out how 25 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.200 to like organize it in a a that is easy for someone to go back 26 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.560 through and either read or listen to all the content so that they can come 27 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.879 up with insights. Anyway, it took us all of basically the back half 28 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:14.479 of and all of one and then the first part of to put this all 29 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:16.919 together. But the original intent was, hey, this, this could be 30 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:21.719 like a product that we end up selling and that might still be something we 31 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:24.039 do down the road. The original intent was not to. From what I 32 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:28.599 can remember, I don't think we ever intended to like break it down on 33 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.759 B twob growth like we're doing now. So that's been a more recent or 34 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:38.240 more recent idea or evolution of the original research project. But that's how we 35 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.439 did it. I mean it was just we are already having conversations with these 36 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:44.080 B two B marketing leaders and we just said, hey, it'd be really 37 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:47.159 interesting if we asked all of them the same ten or fifteen questions and then 38 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:51.919 compiled the data and and told the world about it. Yeah, in Sorri 39 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:57.960 right, like research like this is always so great to have posts, but 40 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:00.240 when you're actually in the process of collecting you and then, I think we're 41 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:02.960 even going to jump into this in a minute, but like when you think 42 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:09.120 of trends, getting original research data driven, like the jump from data to 43 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:14.520 actual insight, there's just so many steps in between and pulling that out, 44 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:17.520 and so we are learning that, but we're still using this and I think 45 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:22.719 that's what's important, because there's so much here that we can glean conversation from 46 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:25.479 and then ultimately it will make us better at our marketing. And so that's 47 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:29.599 our hope and our desire and honestly, honestly, Benji, it is, 48 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:31.639 I don't want to say surprising, because I hear Chris Walker talk about it 49 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:36.240 all the time, but the benefit to this, in addition to it being 50 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:40.199 great content, it's actually giving us insights that are helping us build a better 51 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:45.439 product or better service for our clients. So we were just in Denver with 52 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:47.800 our leadership team talking through like how can we take our service to the next 53 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:53.319 level, and we're thinking through like what kind of guarantee can we incorporate into 54 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:58.680 our offer and the insights from this research. We had just compiled like the 55 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:02.599 last of the insights from it, and I ended up referencing this original research 56 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.759 all throughout the entire day because we had just talked to literally a hundred of 57 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:10.879 our ideal buyers. We know what keeps them up at night, we know 58 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:15.719 how their CEO measures and their success. We know what their biggest struggle is. 59 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.600 So we can literally cater our service to what we now know. We're 60 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:24.439 not guessing anymore. We know what these people are saying and we can go 61 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:28.199 back and actually listen to them say it. And so I'm pretty bullish on 62 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:30.000 the fact that every company should figure out how to do this. I'll be 63 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:33.720 the first one to tell you it as hard as hell, but absolutely worth 64 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:39.279 it. Well, today's question is very subjective and it's good to acknowledge that 65 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:43.199 before we go into this. This is less saying everyone thinks this way and 66 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.079 more here's a bunch of things that, as we surveyed marketers, B two 67 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.800 B marketers, they're going this is an overrated trend in marketing and B two 68 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:55.160 B marketing right now. And so here's what I'm gonna Invite from Dan and 69 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:57.639 James, as they can interrupt me at any time. I'm about to to 70 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.879 read through this list of answers that given to this question. And guys, 71 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:03.839 if if one is is kind of like a bigger deal to you, you 72 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.480 want to talk about it for a second, interrupt me and we can talk 73 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:11.480 about it discuss. So here are some of the things that were mentioned as 74 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:16.759 overrated trends. Trade shows, AI, chat bots, gated content, a 75 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:25.680 B M as a service or tool or product, email capture, white papers, 76 00:05:25.720 --> 00:05:30.639 sending gifts that aren't personal, being data driven. So that is a 77 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.920 lot of things. The ones that stand out to me. I think that 78 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:39.360 we've all kind of evolved our thinking around. The one that we were talking 79 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.360 about right before we hit record was was gated content. And so there's this 80 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:47.560 massive push to get all of your content and Dan, you've actually had you've 81 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.759 helped me kind of see a different way. I decided not to gate our 82 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.199 B Two B podcasting course that we we released a year or two ago. 83 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:00.800 I still don't think I regret that decision. Dan, you feel differently. 84 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:03.959 What are your thoughts, dwn on, on why this whole push to get 85 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:09.639 all your content is maybe not the best idea? As it is with most 86 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.839 trends, like trends tend to flip from one side to the other. So 87 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.279 we go really hard on one side and of course pushed it too far and 88 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.399 then everyone's like no, it sucks, it's horrible, so it swings to 89 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:23.439 total opposite side instead of landing in the middle. Right. I came from 90 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:27.040 a B to c world and from higher ed where I was using gated content 91 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:30.720 successfully, like it was freaking working. I would get their email, I 92 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.600 would send them great follow up emails and I would send them good content, 93 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.600 like they would literally come in on a specific category on the blog. I 94 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:41.480 showed them a relevant lead magnet that was relevant to that category. Some would 95 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.839 opt in for it and get the lead magnet and I'd follow up with more 96 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:48.279 articles related to that category and the consumption levels are really high and of course 97 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:51.480 over time the consumption level of them would go down and I'd unoped them out 98 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.160 if they didn't engage with a certain amount. But I would never send them 99 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.560 to sales. Versus when I found out when I came over to B two 100 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:01.720 B and, people were like literally capturing people on content and then shipping into 101 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.680 sales without them initiating any kind of sales conversation, I was like, well, 102 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:10.600 of course the lead's not going to covert. No wonder sales hates like 103 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.560 this kind of quote unquote m Q. Well, I would never do that, 104 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:16.000 like I might throw a right hook and the email every once in a 105 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.639 while being like hey, you want to talk to sales? No, cool, 106 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:21.560 don't. I wouldn't send waste our time on sales because I know that 107 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.519 it's just made sense that it didn't work. At first I was like, 108 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:27.879 why are they so against gated content, and I found out, oh, 109 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:31.279 it's because you're freaking doing it wrong. Like if you do it right you 110 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:38.360 can essentially send them more value and endear them, a small percentage of them 111 00:07:38.360 --> 00:07:40.839 a little bit more. But if you have thousands of people coming to a 112 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.879 blog or to a podcast or to whatever the content is, and you're capturing 113 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.480 a small percentage with something more value and then you're following up in a really 114 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:51.399 good way, there's nothing wrong with that and it works well. I think 115 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:56.959 a lot of my issue with, you know, getting on lists because I 116 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:01.439 wanted to download something, and it's just getting increasingly and it's getting harder and 117 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.079 harder, I think, to create something good enough for me to want to 118 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.639 consume it in my inbox. And I don't know if that's too much, 119 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:16.879 just me getting hammered with spam. And I just hired someone to specifically like 120 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.279 focus on my inbox for me. So I literally like I have such an 121 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:24.680 aversion to getting sucked into the rabbit hole that is my inbox that so I 122 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:30.319 I hesitate to come on too strong here because I think I'm probably an extremist 123 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:31.799 when it comes to just like I don't want to think about my inbox. 124 00:08:31.799 --> 00:08:35.120 I want to be in my inbox. I want somebody reading all my stuff 125 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.759 and then texting me to let me know if they think that there's something big 126 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.840 enough that I need to pay attention to or or think about that comes into 127 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.519 my inbox, because our internal comms happen in slack and so I'm tuned in 128 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.360 internally to the team through that platform. And so all the external stuff coming 129 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.919 from email, most of it is just absolute garbage. But I do think 130 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.519 that if you're thoughtful, and we talked about premise development all the time and 131 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.200 figuring out what's your Hook, what's your angle, and you see companies like 132 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:09.200 the Hustle and these newsletters morning, you know morning crew like there have been 133 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.639 people that have figured out how do we deliver a delightful experience in the inbox 134 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.080 that people actually want to consume. But it requires a lot of thought and 135 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.600 it requires a lot of editorial lift to create something so good that somebody wants 136 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:24.360 to look at it. And I think most of the time we, you 137 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:28.519 know, at least in B Two b land, there's not the thought and 138 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:33.720 care put into what goes into the email and and that's a shame because I 139 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.600 think it's kind of given gated content a really bad name. But we took 140 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:41.159 a hybrid approach with the B twob podcasting course and said Hey, you can 141 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:46.240 you can watch all the course for free, or you can sign up if 142 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.600 you want access to updates or you want a log in or you want it 143 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:52.600 in your inbox so that you can file it away and go back to it 144 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:56.960 easily without having to remember a link. So there was some utility to like, 145 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:58.840 but we allowed people to do both. I'm seeing more and more people 146 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.799 do that. It's like, Hey, you can download it here if you 147 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.480 want the pdf in your inbox, or you can just look at it here. 148 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:07.360 So yeah, so much of this stuff. I think you hit the 149 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.639 nail on the head, Dan, when he said it's that we're somewhere in 150 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.320 the middle. Like we we like to take hot takes and go with the 151 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.279 completely other way when in reality, uh, there's probably a middle ground there, 152 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.480 and I think the middle ground, particularly forgated content, is are you 153 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:26.519 delivering something exceptional in the inbox once you capture that email, and obviously not 154 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.519 just sending them straight to sales? It's interesting because I would just use the 155 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.759 imagery of a pendulum swinging, because the most of marketing where you're going to 156 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:43.000 get your advantage is when people swing really hard to one side. You just 157 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.320 look. Okay, they're all paying attention over here. If we just go 158 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.200 pay attention to whatever the opposite is, there's less people over there right now 159 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:52.120 and that's where we win. You look at direct mail and everybody that advocated 160 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:58.000 to get rid of direct mail went over to digital things and made it so 161 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.440 crowded in the digital space that there is definitely people that are winning with direct 162 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:05.399 mail because they went where everybody else thought we can't win over there. And 163 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.480 so when you look at this list, I'm like, can you win at 164 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:11.480 trade shows? Yeah, if there's a ton of people on linkedin saying you 165 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:15.000 shouldn't do trade shows, Blah Blah, blah, Blah Blah, but you 166 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.960 know your market. When I look at this entire lit like chat box would 167 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.440 be a similar thing. If you thought it was a trend a few years 168 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.240 ago and most people are walking away from it in your little industry and you 169 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:30.519 walk into it, there could be a potential advantage if done correctly. And 170 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.360 even one thing we've talked about on B two B growth before that hit this 171 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.720 list was sending gifts that aren't personal that we've talked about. Get receiving a 172 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:41.960 gift and you're like this is like half done merch or this is half done 173 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:45.639 like swag, and I'm I'm just not in on it. We we literally 174 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.279 just hit pause on something like we were about to do that. We were 175 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.720 about to send out boxes to to folks in squads, and I looked at 176 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:56.120 what was going to go in the boxes and I was like this just doesn't 177 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:58.919 this doesn't feel like something I would get in the mail and go, man, 178 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.279 that was delightful, and so we boshed it. But I don't think 179 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.720 a lot of people have that have are necessarily thinking about it in the same 180 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:11.080 way, and so they put a lot of time, into effort, into 181 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:15.080 into things that don't actually do what what they hope they would have done. 182 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.399 I just think, yeah, that pendulum and being aware of where you're at 183 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.799 potentially can give you an advantage, and that's as I look at this list. 184 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.799 People are like, Oh, this is so overrated. They get really 185 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.519 passionate about it, and if that becomes a blind spot, like just be 186 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.960 aware that there is someone that can win in that category still, there's someone 187 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.720 that's using it effectively. If you really want to learn it, you can 188 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:41.960 learn it. You don't, you shouldn't learn everything. Some of these things 189 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.360 you should just all right, that's for someone else, but pick your things 190 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:48.679 and pick wisely. Dan. Anything else that stands out to you from this 191 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.960 list? Yeah, I still think chat bucks suck. Everybody is saying they 192 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.679 suck. I'm like, Yep, I agree. Yep, that was a 193 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.559 bad trend all through. I haven't seen it done well. So somebody proved 194 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.600 me wrong. I hope. If you know a chat bought that works well, 195 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.320 send it to Dan on Linkedin and Hill. I think we use a 196 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.200 chat Bot on the sweek fish site. I can't remember now. I hate 197 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:16.480 it, I know. Okay, so I'm looking at the key findings here. 198 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.840 I'll tell you, guys, how it was broken down status wise. 199 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:26.759 So most marketers listed a B M actually as a service or a tool or 200 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:33.440 a product, as the trend that was most overrated. So that actually came 201 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:39.360 in a B M as a as a tech tool. At and Dan, 202 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.679 I know we've talked a lot about a B M, so probably want your 203 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.519 insight here. But then it goes to things like social media, chat bots, 204 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:50.159 trade shows. I think social is very funny and that's such a broad 205 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.759 term that I don't understand quite how we got to eight percent. There but 206 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.759 then four percent for things like virtual events personalization. So there's a huge jump 207 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:05.600 down from a B M to these other categories. Any first initial insights, 208 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.120 when you hear that Dan is a statue. Twenty one percent saying the most 209 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.759 overrated was a B M, I'm not surprised. They were very successful in 210 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:16.879 establishing that as a category. What's interesting is three times as high as the 211 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:20.759 second one, almost three times to eight percent. What I found interesting and 212 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.120 reading the responses is there's almost always nuance to how people said a B m. 213 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.320 But there it's almost like they can't throw a B m out the window 214 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.320 completely. It's always like just the way it's emphasized about it being a tool 215 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.039 or a crm. But almost all the marketers, all B two B marketers, 216 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.480 know the a B M is actually a really good thing and coming from 217 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:43.240 a BBC World, I didn't even know and honestly it made me fall in 218 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.759 love with B two B, because a B M can be so it's you 219 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.519 just have more information to work with. It's so different to cover a category. 220 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:54.879 You know a category, even using firm a graphics to have a narrowly 221 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.320 defined category is very different from no, we're going to target these three companies 222 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:03.120 to totally different approach changes the game and some people might call that best practice, 223 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.919 but I think most marketers know that that is a good thing. And 224 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:09.279 maybe they were doing in sales, but I don't I still don't think most 225 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.360 marketing departments do it that way. I know even at sweet fish we kind 226 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.720 of do it that way sometimes, but most people just spray a very good 227 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.759 segment. They're doing segmentation but not going after specific companies, and I think 228 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.399 that's why a B M is so loved and hated, because of the tech 229 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.159 people throw onto. It's like, oh well, you have to have terminus, 230 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.039 you have to have this, but really most marketers will come to the 231 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.399 conclusion that you can do it with just an excel sheet, like it doesn't 232 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:37.320 have to be fancy. Yeah, I like that you called out the fact 233 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.360 that you know. The fact that three times more people that you know there 234 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:46.919 there were these folks that said a B M is an indication of how well 235 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:52.399 I see terminus as really being the category King of a B M and I 236 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.840 think sang Ram just did a masterful job of designing and building the category of 237 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:03.960 a b m. and naturally, when you do something that creates widespread awareness, 238 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.240 a lot of adoption, you're gonna have a lot of people hating on 239 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:12.000 it. And so I personally know sand Rome uh pretty well and I know 240 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:17.399 his heart and I know like a lot of just seeing these responses going because 241 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:18.480 of this. I don't like it and I don't like it and I'm like, 242 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.879 I think sand Rome would agree with you, like he doesn't like that 243 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:27.159 either, like that's not what he's advocating for as he was building this this 244 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:33.279 category of of a b m. and so I think category builders just naturally. 245 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.720 If, if you succeed, I think in a lot of cases you're 246 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.720 you're going to have folks like this that push back against it. Well, 247 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.759 let's talk about because of these results, as you think of overrated trends, 248 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.159 what are some recommendations? What are some things we would do differently or or 249 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.159 be aware of? And I can go first on this. I think for 250 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:56.240 me we're sort of speaking around it, but I think whenever there's a big 251 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.559 trend like a B M and it has staying power, right, but I 252 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:04.119 think there's can be like strategy fatigue or people half baked something and they call 253 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:08.640 it a b M. They're not fully in on it. There like executing 254 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.640 at at sixty s and there's saying yeah, we're doing a B M. 255 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.079 and when they start talking about that, then more and more in the market 256 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.519 or more and more on Linkedin. You just get a lot of ideas all 257 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:25.680 mixed in together that create like a messaging problem and then you think something is 258 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:30.119 overrated because we didn't see the results that were preached by whoever the leader is 259 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.720 or those those companies that are killing it. It's like, well, our 260 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:37.000 company tried that and it didn't really work, and I think knowing that that 261 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:41.480 fatigue can set in because it's being harped on over and over again is so 262 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:45.079 important. But to assess, like how much are we actually putting in into 263 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.359 this, and is this our course strategy, like is this the thing that 264 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.799 we really really want to do? If we're gonna do it, let's do 265 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.960 it and go all in on it. That's one of the absolute most most 266 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.960 important things you can do. We talked about focus on a previous one of 267 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:03.079 these original research episodes. You have to have a focused strategic approach or it's 268 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.440 really hard to win. And so to me it's like, well, if 269 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:08.680 a B M is your your course strategy, then that's gonna make a lot 270 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.440 of other decisions easier for you because you know what you're doing and how you're 271 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.000 going to market. James, what did you think as as kind of recommendations 272 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.440 based out of this? Yeah, so, I mean just I just think 273 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.359 a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth about a B M 274 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:30.680 because of their personal experience being on the receiving end of it. It's particularly 275 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.720 you know, we talked to VPS of marketing. I think some CMOS were 276 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.640 in the mix. I mean those are executives that are right. I mean 277 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:41.079 there's how many, nine thousand Martek tools, and so I think you're on 278 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.720 the receiving end of you know, hey, can you take this hundred dollar 279 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.319 gift card and jump on a demo with somebody from our sales team? And 280 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:55.079 somebody's calling that a B M and it's like uh, so, bad execution 281 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.960 of a B M. I think gives a B M a bad name. 282 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.039 But, like we've been saying this whole time, like that's probably love marketing, 283 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.240 the room that we have for creativity, outside the box, thinking doing 284 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.400 something that's not necessarily that's not breaking news. It's been done before, but 285 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.240 we can do it better, we can have a more creative execution. So 286 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.640 I think that plays a big part of the bad taste that people have in 287 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.759 their mouth about a b m. Dan, what are your thoughts here? 288 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:27.039 I think the problem most B two B marketers make with a B M is 289 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:33.720 they over index on personalization. Rather than being personal. The cool part about 290 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.759 knowing who what the companies are that you're marketing to, even knowing the individuals 291 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.279 in the company, which is the advantage. I fell in love with that. 292 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:41.640 I do, because in B two C you don't have that. B 293 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.000 Two c you just have to spray you know and just hope they come to 294 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:49.039 you. Unless you're working in like with millionaires or something, it's like you 295 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:52.319 don't you don't know who they are. You can't make it personal. It's 296 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.039 like impossible, but in B two B you can. So what companies did 297 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.319 was just be like, oh, hello, first name, how is it 298 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:02.759 going to insert a company name? Are you going to be interested in one 299 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.279 of our products? You're like that's not come on. Just because you can 300 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.160 insert their first name and company name doesn't make me more likely to like the 301 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.119 thing. Just because you can insert my company and my low my region onto 302 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.519 your website homepage. Oh, I'm so much more likely to like your product. 303 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.400 Come on, like, what were you thinking? Just because I don't 304 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:22.799 know and I understand like they just because they can pull it off technically doesn't 305 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.039 make it actually effective, but they market it like it's effective. Like people 306 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:32.359 like to see personalization, but what the opportunity is to make it highly personal. 307 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.319 You know, I can now actually understand the company. I can look 308 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.960 at their if they're a public company, like their their past financial performance kind 309 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.119 of understand where they're at. Are they on the rise, are they struggling? 310 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.319 Are they on the are they going down or they kind of going back 311 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.279 and forth? How is their product doing? How is it perceived? I 312 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.079 can actually go look on social media to see how they're perceived. If I'm 313 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:53.960 selling them some kind of marketing service or something, I can get to know 314 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.119 the individual I'm selling to and follow them on social and interact with them and 315 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:02.240 build relationship and send maybe something that's personal to them. I had someone sent 316 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.160 me a personalized gift. They found out I loved running, so they sent 317 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.400 me a book on running called born to run. I'd actually already read the 318 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:10.160 book. It's one of the if you're into running, so like one of 319 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.559 the best running books you could read. But it was a very thoughtful gift 320 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.240 and even though I don't had already listened to the book on audible, I 321 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:18.079 was like, Oh, they looked at my profile, they know I'm into 322 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.119 running. It's not something I talked about, but it is. It is 323 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:26.000 online and it was a very thoughtful gift and that's where being personal that's where 324 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:29.279 the power of a B M comes to play, because you're actually paying attention 325 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.759 to the real people and the real companies and making your message just so much 326 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.920 more relevant for them. You made me just think about like where I'm actually 327 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:42.440 wary of something. I'm very wary of automation, like just pushing me through 328 00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:45.680 something, and it partially because we're marketers right, so we're very aware, 329 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.680 oh, we're probably in a sequence right now, or we were you. 330 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.759 You just start like thinking about what's the back end of this? But when 331 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:59.160 I get an email where it's like personalized and I put personalized in quotes, 332 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.960 there's such a lack of attention to detail and you know that you're just one 333 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:08.000 of a thousand getting this thing that you're like, I'm so less likely to 334 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:14.400 engage with that company moving forward like let alone. It doesn't leave me at 335 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:18.559 neutral. It actually makes me feel pretty crappy. And so automation, I 336 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.920 think, has become something where I'm like in its best form, like if 337 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.640 it was serving up. I've talked to several CMOS who are like working companies 338 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.519 where their their content. It's like an automated content machine. Okay, they 339 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.839 read this, that's how much time on page we should offer up this. 340 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.960 Maybe in that context I would like it. But specifically with like email and 341 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.359 the sequences you put me in, a lot of times it just feels like 342 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.680 I'm just another one of the random numbers in your in your sequence. I 343 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.599 don't know if if you guys feel that at all either. Yeah, I 344 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:55.519 mean it might take on people sending bad emails. I guess it's it's more 345 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:59.319 about like a one, like when I get a bad cold email. It 346 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:03.880 doesn't that's necessarily hurt as weird as it sounds, it doesn't tarnish the brand 347 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.279 for me because I spend so little, like you can detect them from a 348 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.680 mile away and they're deleted before I even like. So you could literally I 349 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:17.119 could have the same person sending me the same crappy cold email and it like 350 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.200 it doesn't because I don't even it doesn't even like register in my brain who 351 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.079 you are. So I don't give it the thought to even try to remember 352 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:29.039 the company name. If I were to see like somebody from their team post 353 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:33.920 on Linkedin, I wouldn't have that negative association. That might be different with 354 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:38.039 like corporate kind of more like broadcast emails, not corporate, but broadcast emails, 355 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.000 where they're like hitting my inbox over and over and over again, or 356 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.200 like I can't figure out how to UNSUBSCRIBE, like because it actually caused me 357 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.559 pain in trying to like go through and try to figure out how to unsubscribe. 358 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.559 That might that triment the brand. But what I know we're we're harping 359 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.920 on on a B M a lot here, but obviously are. You know, 360 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:03.119 I wrote a book about this oncept of content based networking and and using 361 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:11.160 your podcast to engage on a very one to one human level with decision makers 362 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:12.839 that your target accounts by asking them to be a guest on B two, 363 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:17.680 b growth, and so there are so many benefits that come out of that. 364 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:21.000 Obviously I think I was talking to it might have been even Dan he's 365 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.480 in Orlando this week. We were talking two nights ago, I think, 366 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.160 and it was just like it's you know, content based networking is is hard 367 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:33.400 in the same way that cold outbound is hard. If you're only thinking about 368 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.519 content based networking as like a sales like I want this guest to become a 369 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.519 client. Like if that is your sole purpose of doing a B M through 370 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:47.119 a podcast, prepared to not, you know, to be underwhelmed, because 371 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.319 the likelihood that so, when you reach out to to be a guest on 372 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:56.359 your show, is in market in that moment for your specific solution very, 373 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.680 very rare. I mean we've done thousands of episodes. Very early do we 374 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:02.960 ask someone to be on B two B growth and then, like, I 375 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.200 think it's happened maybe twice where like within the next couple of weeks are like 376 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:10.079 hey, like, can we talk about having you guys produce our podcast? 377 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.480 Like very rarely does that happen. oftentimes it will be like a year, 378 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:18.599 two years, sometimes three or four years down the road, and there's relationship 379 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.480 that goes into that. Right, like you, you ask someone to be 380 00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.279 a guest on the show, you now have have a conversation, like you 381 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.759 know that their kids just went off to their first year at, you know, 382 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:33.839 Alabama or and so you get these insights and then, if you're connected 383 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:37.240 on Linkedin, you can now engage in a way that you couldn't engage with 384 00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:44.640 them before. And so I am still a huge advocate of leveraging podcasting for 385 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:49.680 relationship building and I think relationship building and a B M are much closer tied 386 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.759 to one another than a lot of people think. It just it's harder work 387 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.480 and it's not as like push button, easy to automate. But I still 388 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:02.039 think it's incredibly effective. When I look back now, you know, after 389 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.720 building this business for seven years, the relationships I have in in B Two 390 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:11.759 b marketing have been a massive strategic advantage for us for a wide variety of 391 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:18.279 reasons. But I think that that approach to leveraging relationship building through asking someone 392 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:22.319 to collaborate with you on content is a huge still relatively, I think, 393 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:29.359 pretty untapped potential for a B M execution. Yep, I would totally agree, 394 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.160 and I think it's great to look at the positive side of creating content 395 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.880 with somebody else and how you can be personal there and play the long game 396 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.359 and and even just from a your network. It holds everything for you as 397 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.960 as a person, career wise, like the connections that you have, the 398 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.359 community that you are within. It opens doors for you, right. So, 399 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:55.599 like just allowing something like a podcast and creating content together to do that. 400 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.359 It opens up your mind. It's creating something of value for other people 401 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.759 and you're now connected to this person long term that maybe you end up doing 402 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.240 business with. When you get that narrow focus. We've all heard a podcast, 403 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.279 and I mean I have clicked off several very fast when you could tell, 404 00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:14.440 okay, they're just kind of here to do their thing because this is 405 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:19.039 gonna hopefully drive business, versus having a compelling conversation and being there to to 406 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.039 give away valuable content. It's just a different way of operating and that's obviously 407 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:27.079 what we're going to advocate for. I think something I'm thinking about is you're 408 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:30.720 explaining that, James was like we need to know, and we hit on 409 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:37.599 this last week too, like what are the buzzwords in our space right now? 410 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.599 And, even if we're sort of doing something that could be labeled like 411 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:47.599 a B M, making sure that how we're talking about it and how we're 412 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:51.480 thinking about it is not just in a way of like, okay, uh, 413 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:52.799 you know, we're we're using this a B M strategy. When you 414 00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.519 start saying that and people already think it's a Buzzword, they're going to turn 415 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.359 off mentally. Right. So, like how you go to market with the 416 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.119 language you use is really important, and then how you check yourself on like 417 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.880 why are we doing those things? We're doing the underlying why. It's really 418 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:08.960 valuable to to come back to and that's something as a marketing team here at 419 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.240 sweet fish that we've been doing, thinking about our purpose and and our why 420 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.519 and how we go to markets. So that was I'm really glad you brought 421 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:21.000 up content based networking and I also think it's just when it comes to a 422 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.960 b m even though we do have a bit of that play, I don't 423 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.200 know that we would talk about it quite like that because we care more about 424 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:32.200 the people that were actually interacting with it. Actually, it's it's so strange 425 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:37.319 to me. I actually do not give a crap if someone coming on to 426 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.920 be to be growth. I literally wrote a book about building relationships with your 427 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.759 ideal buyers, but I could not care less whether or not they end up 428 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:48.839 buying from us or not. And that's it sounds so weird, but, 429 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.200 like I just I know all the other benefits that come from that. The 430 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.440 affinity that gets built when you get to have a meaningful, you know, 431 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.119 minute conversation with somebody, learning about their family, like, learning about what 432 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.200 their points of you are, how they see the market, like the growth 433 00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:08.759 for me that I've experienced by now forming relationships with hundreds, if not thousands, 434 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.440 of our ideal buyers. It has allowed us to iterate on our service, 435 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:17.279 it's allowed me to figure out pricing things. They've connected me to other 436 00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:22.559 people in their network, like there's just so many benefits beyond that one specific 437 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.559 person becoming a client of sweet fish. But you have to go into it 438 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:29.599 with that mentality or if you don't, people see right through it. Marketing 439 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:34.240 takes courage and need good marketing. Obviously you're getting close to your clients and 440 00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.720 you're understanding their pain. We talked about all these things. It sounds Cliche, 441 00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:41.319 but that's ultimately what we're driving at right now too, is like this 442 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.240 is just another way of understanding where they're actually at and being able to add 443 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:49.759 something of value. So that's that's crucial. Dan, final thoughts here as 444 00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.359 we're starting to wrap up today. You know, I'm looking back through the 445 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.039 list of all these different trends and some part of me wants to say, 446 00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:59.440 like you know, it really takes a sermon to know which ones are the 447 00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.000 better ones. But at the same time, even even if some trends are 448 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:06.799 more powerful than others, I think the thing that actually works the most is 449 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:10.240 just going all in on just one or two or just picking a few and 450 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.160 just like staying the course for longer than you think, going way harder than 451 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:18.000 you know, and it's usually takes ten times the amount of work then you 452 00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:21.839 think it's going to take. Blogging, it doesn't work on one blog a 453 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:25.680 week. You literally have to put in ten times more, or maybe at 454 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:27.559 least fifteen a month. It's just a lot. Like you have to put 455 00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:32.559 in way more podcast episodes for your podcast to drive the massive results you're hoping 456 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.079 I can't say the same for Chat Bots, since that's an automated feature. 457 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:38.920 Like for most of these like you just have to go harder or spend way 458 00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:42.440 more time learning how to perfect it before you can actually expect it to drive 459 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:47.400 zero, like a lot of results. So I think you can honestly win 460 00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.680 with any of these things, as long as you just stay focused, become 461 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.319 a master at it. But you have to dedicate yourself to the journey of 462 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:57.039 mastering how to do the thing. Even chat bots Dan like. If you 463 00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:02.759 go deep enough in chat bots and you're customizing each experience based on what page 464 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:06.480 they landed on, based on the source of how they ended up coming there, 465 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.319 there's so many different journeys. So even within chatbots, if that was 466 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:15.960 your focus, you could become exceptional at chatbots. You're right. If anybody's 467 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:18.519 listening to that and you're like, oh, that's me, reach out, 468 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:23.279 I'll do a whole episode with you. I want to see you. I 469 00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:26.960 just haven't seen more. Now I think of like playing guitar and like playing 470 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.480 shows, that music is like something in my background, and I think about, 471 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:34.039 like what they would tell me. Once you've played a song so much 472 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:38.319 that you're sick of it, then like that's right when you like in a 473 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:41.519 church setting, right like that's when the congregation is finally understanding the lyrics. 474 00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:45.240 They're finally they're finally like, Oh, I remember this one. It's the 475 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:49.200 same thing with like expressing your unique P O v in a market, right 476 00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:53.000 like we're on linkedin saying essentially the same things over and over and over again, 477 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:57.000 trying to package it just slightly different so we're not just straight up repeating 478 00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:01.680 ourselves. But right as we're getting sick of it is probably when some people 479 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:07.839 are finally starting to get it. And so being like thinking about that and 480 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:09.920 just being like okay, even if I'm sick of this method or this approach 481 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:15.039 or this medium, like I'm barely getting my message across, because it's like, 482 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.240 for a second in their day it's like like beat the same drum over 483 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.000 and over and over again and when you're unsure, like maybe I've done this 484 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.039 too much, maybe just try to like a couple more times. I think 485 00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:30.039 that's one of the key takeaways from from this and as we think about trends, 486 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.920 like something to to take away. Well, it's been a really fascinating 487 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.920 conversation. I love this one because it is so subjective and there's I'm sure 488 00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:40.240 there's some things that people are listening and they're disagreeing with. So if there's 489 00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.599 something you disagree with or something you want to add to the list of trends 490 00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:46.200 right now that you're just like frustrated by, I feel free to reach out 491 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:50.480 to James Dan Myself over on Linkedin. We'd love to hear from you. 492 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.240 We'll be back next week with another one of these original research episodes and keep 493 00:32:54.279 --> 00:33:10.720 doing work that matters. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the 494 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.920 front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer 495 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.440 that you think we need to have on the show, reach out email me, 496 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.599 Benji dot block at Sweet Fish Media Dot Com. I look forward to 497 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:23.160 hearing from you.