The Role of Website Personalization in ABM

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah. 2 00:00:05.140 --> 00:00:09.110 Hey everybody Logan with sweet fish year first of all, whether you are a 3 00:00:09.120 --> 00:00:12.860 regular subscriber of GDP growth or new to the show. Thank you so much for 4 00:00:12.860 --> 00:00:17.930 hitting play on this episode a little bit about what to expect over the next 5 00:00:17.930 --> 00:00:21.050 several weeks we're going to be replaying some of our best episodes 6 00:00:21.050 --> 00:00:25.760 from a deep dive we did earlier this year, all about a B. M. Or account 7 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:29.730 based marketing. If you are new to be to be or you're trying to get your A. B. 8 00:00:29.730 --> 00:00:34.240 M. Efforts off the ground or really gain some traction in what you've 9 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:38.560 started to do with a B. M. Within your organization. You are going to love 10 00:00:38.570 --> 00:00:42.140 these episodes. So over the next several weeks expect to see two 11 00:00:42.140 --> 00:00:46.920 episodes a week here in your BdB growth feed and they will all be focused 12 00:00:46.930 --> 00:00:51.530 around A B. M. From our account based marketing. Deep dive. All right, let's 13 00:00:51.530 --> 00:00:58.200 get into the episode. Today I'm joined by a guy yell if who is the ceo of 14 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:01.820 intel um eyes and we're gonna be talking about website personalization. 15 00:01:01.820 --> 00:01:04.739 This is kind of a category that I found out is in A. B. M. Though. I haven't 16 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:09.360 covered in any of the episodes yet. So I was excited to talk to guy about his 17 00:01:09.360 --> 00:01:12.840 company. What it does as well as just the category of what we can do with 18 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:16.830 personalizing a website which I think is any any digital marketing plan. Any 19 00:01:16.830 --> 00:01:21.610 kind of marketing plan in the 2020 is right is like the main hub of all 20 00:01:21.620 --> 00:01:24.610 marketing that we do. We're all trying to get traffic back to our website 21 00:01:24.610 --> 00:01:27.930 where we have more control over the experience. So it makes sense that we 22 00:01:27.930 --> 00:01:33.930 want to talk about a B. M as it relates to your own website. So guy, I'm so 23 00:01:33.930 --> 00:01:37.210 excited to have you on the show today. How are you doing? I'm doing great dan, 24 00:01:37.210 --> 00:01:40.450 honored to be here. I've been listening to the podcast throughout the month, 25 00:01:40.450 --> 00:01:46.230 very excited to have this conversation. Fantastic dive in. So to get started, I 26 00:01:46.230 --> 00:01:50.710 want to talk about broadly, what is website personalization in case the 27 00:01:50.710 --> 00:01:55.540 audience doesn't know and why is it important? Website personalization is 28 00:01:55.540 --> 00:02:00.170 giving different visitors, different experiences as consumers. We've all 29 00:02:00.170 --> 00:02:05.550 been trained by yahoo amazon netflix and a bunch of others to expect Our 30 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:08.410 digital experience, our journey with the companies with whom we're 31 00:02:08.410 --> 00:02:12.910 interacting to be tailored to us website personalization is an approach 32 00:02:12.910 --> 00:02:17.460 where you can meet in a B2B context, each of your prospects where they are 33 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:21.730 in their funnel with you to recognize that a first time visitor is really 34 00:02:21.730 --> 00:02:24.660 different than somebody has already asked for a demo is really different 35 00:02:24.660 --> 00:02:29.970 than somebody who's already an existing customer. The goal of it is more 36 00:02:29.970 --> 00:02:33.730 revenue more leads to sales or more customers. Ultimately, it's about 37 00:02:33.730 --> 00:02:38.410 driving more money and it's one of many techniques to go do that like the 38 00:02:38.410 --> 00:02:41.380 broader umbrella of a B. M or the broader umbrella of conversion rate 39 00:02:41.380 --> 00:02:46.760 optimization. I've seen website personalization out there for while I'd 40 00:02:46.760 --> 00:02:51.000 probably say the first experience I had with it was probably five years ago and 41 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:53.890 I had seen it. And what had happened is there like, well which one, which 42 00:02:53.890 --> 00:02:57.280 bucket do you fit in? We wanted taylor and it was literally like we want to 43 00:02:57.280 --> 00:02:59.880 tailor the website to you. And I was like, okay, I'm like, I don't really 44 00:02:59.880 --> 00:03:02.710 fit in any of these buckets but I'm curious to see how this works, click 45 00:03:02.720 --> 00:03:06.490 and then of course the homepage changed and customize the website. I was the 46 00:03:06.490 --> 00:03:08.770 first time I realized that it was happening though. I'm sure it was 47 00:03:08.770 --> 00:03:12.160 happening long before that and generally you probably don't know about 48 00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:16.110 a lot of websites are probably being customized. Do you right now as you're 49 00:03:16.110 --> 00:03:19.610 browsing around the web or when you get back on the web sometime today. The web, 50 00:03:19.620 --> 00:03:23.470 some websites probably been customized guy. What percentage of websites do you 51 00:03:23.470 --> 00:03:27.040 feel like you're just being customized all the time now and people just aren't 52 00:03:27.040 --> 00:03:31.630 even aware of it. It's a great question. The last time I looked at data from 53 00:03:31.640 --> 00:03:35.890 either built with their data. Nice to the sources. We tend to look at The top 54 00:03:35.890 --> 00:03:42.110 10,000 websites. It was something like a 3rd 30 to 40% top 100,000 was about 55 00:03:42.110 --> 00:03:47.390 half that it seems like look we as marketers have been a marketer for the 56 00:03:47.390 --> 00:03:52.910 last decade, spent 100 and $20 billion every year just in the us driving 57 00:03:52.910 --> 00:03:57.430 people to websites. But we failed to turn them into customers 98% of the 58 00:03:57.430 --> 00:04:03.060 time. Like in what world is that? Okay? And so we see this as something that we 59 00:04:03.060 --> 00:04:08.000 all increasingly expect as consumers and in our business lives it has a 60 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:12.430 great positive impact. I'm going to say for a lot of websites, 2% would even be 61 00:04:12.430 --> 00:04:16.839 pretty dang good. Right? I've heard anywhere from like if you're, if you're 62 00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:20.320 in between the 2 to 5% conversion rate on your website depending on what 63 00:04:20.329 --> 00:04:24.460 industry of course that you're in, like you're usually doing pretty good. Like 64 00:04:24.460 --> 00:04:28.180 even talked to ask chris walker and linkedin recently. So he's like, we got 65 00:04:28.180 --> 00:04:32.300 to get beyond the 0.5% conversion rates. I'm like, so what is good? He's like, 66 00:04:32.310 --> 00:04:36.030 oh, you know between two and 5% I'm like okay, it's not like 10 or 15% 67 00:04:36.030 --> 00:04:41.390 though, it would be highly uncommon to see that. And I think if you're not 68 00:04:41.390 --> 00:04:45.360 sure what website personalization is, I love if you go to intel um, eyes dot 69 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:49.700 com, they have this one button that I found was wonderful because it 70 00:04:49.700 --> 00:04:53.760 illustrates what they do and what it is. It's like a yellow button that kind of 71 00:04:53.760 --> 00:04:58.340 hovers over the website. If you click it, it says, see what is optimized here, 72 00:04:58.340 --> 00:05:01.240 You click the button and all of a sudden it throws like these blue dotted 73 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:05.670 boxes around every section of their website that has been customized for me, 74 00:05:05.670 --> 00:05:09.780 the website visitor. So it's very exciting to see all the things that you 75 00:05:09.780 --> 00:05:12.490 can customize of course as a marketer. I'm like, well it's probably a lot of 76 00:05:12.490 --> 00:05:15.260 freaking work because now I have to figure out what would I serve to 77 00:05:15.260 --> 00:05:18.630 everybody and how would I think about it differently. But that will have to 78 00:05:18.630 --> 00:05:22.060 wait for that part of the conversation. A little later in the interview for now, 79 00:05:22.060 --> 00:05:26.050 I want to talk about like, what, how is this related to A B. M. Like how is 80 00:05:26.050 --> 00:05:29.960 this serve somebody who's walking through an A. B. M. Campaign to tailor 81 00:05:29.960 --> 00:05:35.050 their website to their audience. We think they are directly related. So A B. 82 00:05:35.050 --> 00:05:38.910 M. Is saying, as you've covered previously on the podcast, sales and 83 00:05:38.910 --> 00:05:41.610 marketing are not going to be coordinated. So the marketing is 84 00:05:41.610 --> 00:05:46.270 focused. Their spears that they're sending outbound on the exact accounts 85 00:05:46.270 --> 00:05:50.080 and individuals of those accounts that matter to sales. Great. Let's say you 86 00:05:50.080 --> 00:05:53.960 hook one of them and managed to get them to your website. You want to speak 87 00:05:53.960 --> 00:05:58.680 to them differently than you would speak to others. We encourage all the 88 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:03.060 folks with whom we work to treat every page in particular. Their homepage like 89 00:06:03.060 --> 00:06:06.100 a landing page or you think about all the landing pages we've all created 90 00:06:06.100 --> 00:06:10.400 over the years for our ads. What if your homepage where that personalized. 91 00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:15.210 What if every page was 1-2 then go meet them where they are in their journey 92 00:06:15.210 --> 00:06:19.630 with you to recognize that you're speaking to different roles at 93 00:06:19.630 --> 00:06:23.580 different sized companies that are in different places in their journey and 94 00:06:23.590 --> 00:06:27.370 that you can create a more bespoke more relevant experience that will move them 95 00:06:27.370 --> 00:06:31.640 through the funnel more quickly. Some website personalization helps bring a 96 00:06:31.640 --> 00:06:35.560 whole bunch of that to life. Often to your earlier point about content. We're 97 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.610 using content. You already have you've already created the personas, You've 98 00:06:38.610 --> 00:06:41.980 already created the case studies. If you can show that visitor, the one 99 00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:46.560 that's relevant to them, they're more likely to engage with you more makes a 100 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:51.430 lot of sense. But my question is like let's say I've been interacting with 101 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:55.930 people on linkedin. I share a link to my maybe a blog post, a case study 102 00:06:55.940 --> 00:07:00.730 published recently and they're visiting to it from linkedin. How does it know 103 00:07:00.730 --> 00:07:03.040 that they're in my target account? Because there's probably a lot of 104 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.770 traffic coming from linkedin but some of them are outside my I. C. P. Some of 105 00:07:06.770 --> 00:07:11.310 them are my target accounts but could be you know and some are specifically 106 00:07:11.320 --> 00:07:15.360 the exact people I want to build a relationship with. How does it know? 107 00:07:15.840 --> 00:07:24.290 Great question. We've typically seen three ways this will happen one Often 108 00:07:24.300 --> 00:07:28.990 you've already put you tm parameters or other Euro parameters in the link for 109 00:07:28.990 --> 00:07:33.920 your own analytics. You can use those to better personalize the experience, 110 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:38.900 We automatically parse all of them. Uh, and use that in machine learning to 111 00:07:38.900 --> 00:07:42.670 find correlations or you can set up rules, right? If they're in the target 112 00:07:42.670 --> 00:07:47.540 account list, I want to show them this different experience. 12, you can deny, 113 00:07:47.540 --> 00:07:52.220 minimize the traffic. Maybe maybe you didn't tag the link or maybe they came 114 00:07:52.220 --> 00:07:56.170 from somewhere else. You might use one of the demonization vendors out there 115 00:07:56.170 --> 00:08:01.660 that say, oh you know what dan showed up from the Sweet fish Media office and 116 00:08:01.660 --> 00:08:05.350 we know who he is. We can personalize that way. And three if they visited the 117 00:08:05.350 --> 00:08:09.410 site before and maybe they felt that a form You can go match the market a 118 00:08:09.410 --> 00:08:15.160 munchkin or some other way to reconnect back to that profile to know who it is. 119 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:19.810 So you can personalize by industry by role, by size of company by stage and 120 00:08:19.810 --> 00:08:23.520 funnel or whatever other lens you would like to use on that personalization 121 00:08:23.530 --> 00:08:27.660 does that resonate them? So I think so I think so is three different ways. one 122 00:08:27.740 --> 00:08:32.400 I give something like an televise the information through the link. You earl, 123 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:35.760 the Perma link that comes with the U. Tm programs and all that kind of stuff. 124 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:40.700 Um, so I can essentially say, hey, I'm going to send people to my home page, 125 00:08:40.700 --> 00:08:44.200 but I know in this particular setting where I'm sharing the link that would 126 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:47.950 be in this particular industry. So while I'm sending to my homepage, it's 127 00:08:47.950 --> 00:08:50.130 going to customize it for the industry because I have a little bit more 128 00:08:50.130 --> 00:08:52.500 control over that. Maybe I know where I'm sharing the link. Maybe I'm 129 00:08:52.500 --> 00:08:57.060 shooting the link than email out to a group and I haven't targeted already. 130 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:01.170 So there's that I think the second one I heard was just through cookies 131 00:09:01.180 --> 00:09:06.610 because they visited maybe they visited particular blog post in the past and 132 00:09:06.610 --> 00:09:10.750 because of that I can tag them now in the system to know like okay this 133 00:09:10.750 --> 00:09:14.790 person's in this camp. So next time they come back to the home page maybe 134 00:09:14.790 --> 00:09:19.390 through a retargeting ad I can customize it knowing what I know about 135 00:09:19.390 --> 00:09:22.220 them because they visited this one blog post. Maybe they found it through 136 00:09:22.220 --> 00:09:26.280 search or something and then the last one is through the Crm because they 137 00:09:26.280 --> 00:09:29.890 filled out a form at some point we can customize it based on what we have in 138 00:09:29.890 --> 00:09:32.850 the Crm about them which could start to customize it based on where they're at 139 00:09:32.850 --> 00:09:38.350 in their journey. Is that right? Almost exactly. I'm totally with you on the 140 00:09:38.350 --> 00:09:42.620 first one and in fact you can use those U. T. M. Parameters, chances are you've 141 00:09:42.620 --> 00:09:45.620 done it for yourself. It's not for untelevised. You've already done it for 142 00:09:45.620 --> 00:09:49.330 your own analytics will reuse them and to your point and you can do it by 143 00:09:49.330 --> 00:09:52.450 industry, you can do it down to the account, you can say it is JetBlue 144 00:09:52.450 --> 00:09:55.830 showing up and so I want to personalize the specific, I want to show JetBlue 145 00:09:55.830 --> 00:09:59.820 their account rep on the page I want to say hey joe or jane is ready to talk to 146 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:05.110 you. The third one totally with you. The crm system. Absolutely. The second 147 00:10:05.110 --> 00:10:10.150 one. That's a great idea. We've seen that done more in B two C. Where you'll 148 00:10:10.150 --> 00:10:16.180 pay a blue kind experience. They've got huge cookie pools out there. They're 149 00:10:16.180 --> 00:10:20.580 looking across sites to go identify, you know, demographics or behavior 150 00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:23.670 about somebody. The thing I was mentioning that I didn't do a good job 151 00:10:23.670 --> 00:10:29.580 describing was to pay someone like some of the folks we think about a clear bit 152 00:10:29.590 --> 00:10:33.980 or six cents or demand base where they've got a big database of this I. P. 153 00:10:33.980 --> 00:10:37.660 Address is this company's office. So it's not about the cookies, it's 154 00:10:37.660 --> 00:10:40.910 actually about the I. P. Address. And so you know, they showed up from 155 00:10:40.910 --> 00:10:43.850 JetBlue's office in wherever their headquarters is. Let's pretend as new 156 00:10:43.850 --> 00:10:47.890 york that's their office. I know that somebody from JetBlue and I can 157 00:10:47.890 --> 00:10:51.740 personalize the site accordingly. So it's like a reverse. I could look up 158 00:10:51.750 --> 00:10:54.460 actually it's exactly that does that resonate, 159 00:10:56.040 --> 00:10:59.430 yep. Absolutely. And that makes sense. And a lot of a. B. M. Tech companies 160 00:10:59.430 --> 00:11:03.620 are certainly using the I. P. Address quite often. I imagine that's gotten 161 00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:07.690 hard in a remote work environment where people are working from home a lot that 162 00:11:07.700 --> 00:11:12.800 that tactic quite working as well as it used to. But I sure as we go back, but 163 00:11:12.800 --> 00:11:16.300 as many people go back to work that'll, that'll probably work a lot better. The 164 00:11:16.300 --> 00:11:19.140 cookie ones interesting though is I found that that was probably at least 165 00:11:19.140 --> 00:11:23.370 for me, what I've done with websites before is based on the cookies. I think 166 00:11:23.370 --> 00:11:26.040 one of my favorite plug ins that I've used just for Wordpress and this is 167 00:11:26.040 --> 00:11:31.850 like a kind of like $100 or $3200 kind of month thing called opted monster can 168 00:11:31.850 --> 00:11:38.040 actually, you can customize the Cts, the pop ups or the C. T. A. Forms which 169 00:11:38.040 --> 00:11:42.570 ones are showing based on previous pages, hit or loaded to it. I'm 170 00:11:42.570 --> 00:11:45.290 assuming they're doing it with cookies. It's probably the only logical 171 00:11:45.290 --> 00:11:50.250 explanation I can get to because they wouldn't have access to my crm. But 172 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:54.210 that's probably the only reason why I would think that's possible. As I've 173 00:11:54.210 --> 00:11:57.880 seen a few other people like that do it interesting and it does seem like there 174 00:11:57.880 --> 00:12:01.490 are folks who make a whole business out of it. You know, looking across sites, 175 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:06.510 we purposely don't. I spent the last 15 years and ad tech and we aren't doing 176 00:12:06.510 --> 00:12:12.070 that cross site, but the matching in any way. But within a site dandy, your 177 00:12:12.070 --> 00:12:16.660 point, you can infer an awful lot based on somebody's behavior friday if they 178 00:12:16.670 --> 00:12:21.120 go to a page with a particular case study, you can infer size of company 179 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:24.170 and industry, if they go to a particular product, you can infer what 180 00:12:24.170 --> 00:12:27.920 product they're interested in. Often you'll have personas on your site. You 181 00:12:27.920 --> 00:12:33.900 can then, you know, infer from their behavior which persona they are and 182 00:12:33.900 --> 00:12:37.560 remember that and speak to them differently across the site using 183 00:12:37.560 --> 00:12:41.330 content you already have. Or if they went to that case study, show them 184 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:43.950 another one from the same industry on their home page the next time they show 185 00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:47.960 up, you don't have to create a whole new one. You can tailor the experience 186 00:12:48.540 --> 00:12:53.690 to create a more personalized, account based approach. So you're using cookies 187 00:12:53.690 --> 00:12:59.210 to some degree and changing the site live absolutely within the site. When I 188 00:12:59.210 --> 00:13:03.760 heard cookie, I was thinking back to ad tech days Cross. No, no, no. It's like, 189 00:13:03.770 --> 00:13:08.140 I've heard some people call on site retargeting. It's like ads, but they're 190 00:13:08.140 --> 00:13:12.290 all on your site. Like you have full control over it, right? And maybe some 191 00:13:12.290 --> 00:13:16.060 people caught, gosh, I've run into a few small startups that do this Now. 192 00:13:16.070 --> 00:13:20.700 They've tried to position it is on like, on site retargeting, but really it's 193 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:24.890 just changing things off based on what pages people visited before. Okay, 194 00:13:24.900 --> 00:13:27.910 that's kind of cool that it's like the site suggesting to you, even if it 195 00:13:27.910 --> 00:13:30.740 knows nothing about you. As soon as you start clicking on links that start 196 00:13:30.740 --> 00:13:34.280 suggesting the experience for you and that's a different depth that I have 197 00:13:34.280 --> 00:13:40.620 not heard or thought about before, you spot on and if it does nothing about 198 00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:45.690 you, it can still do a better than I know nothing about your job of deciding 199 00:13:45.690 --> 00:13:49.370 what to show you why. Because even if you show up and we know nothing about 200 00:13:49.370 --> 00:13:49.750 you 201 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:55.450 through reverse, I look up to location, we know city state country, we know 202 00:13:55.450 --> 00:14:00.050 mobile desktop tablet. We know is it your first visit a repeat visit. We 203 00:14:00.050 --> 00:14:03.470 know if you came from another site when site where you want just through the 204 00:14:03.470 --> 00:14:07.310 refer if you were clicked on an ad or an email to your point about the U. T. 205 00:14:07.310 --> 00:14:11.030 M. S earlier, we know what messaging you saw, we know what targeting was 206 00:14:11.030 --> 00:14:14.960 used. You can use all of those. Even if we've never seen anybody who looks 207 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.930 exactly like you, we can use machine learning to infer. Well I've seen 208 00:14:19.930 --> 00:14:23.950 people who share some of the attributes with dan. Let me go show dan something 209 00:14:23.950 --> 00:14:27.770 that's more likely to get him to fill out the form, we want them to fill out 210 00:14:27.770 --> 00:14:32.260 to talk to sales or to do the uh you know uh free product trial signing, 211 00:14:33.140 --> 00:14:37.520 it's that resident. Absolutely. So I'm thinking through, it's almost like 212 00:14:37.530 --> 00:14:40.710 putting something like this on your website makes sense in any case. But it 213 00:14:40.710 --> 00:14:44.370 certainly makes sense for your A. B. M. Campaigns mainly because of the the I. 214 00:14:44.370 --> 00:14:48.480 P. Look up or because you can tap into other data sources that can then change 215 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.690 the site for what you know is your target account. But even if you don't 216 00:14:52.690 --> 00:14:56.760 know it's your target account it can still start affecting and changing the 217 00:14:56.760 --> 00:15:00.860 conversion rate on your site quite drastically by customizing the whole 218 00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:06.460 experience. I couldn't agree with you more and often will find you know 98% 219 00:15:06.460 --> 00:15:10.670 of the traffic to the site is not the target account list. And so to be able 220 00:15:10.670 --> 00:15:14.340 to have that spectrum from you know what I'm doing 1 to 1 marketing. I know 221 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:20.570 this is joe or jane at Acne Co and I'm going to go name Agnico on the site. 222 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:24.910 I'm going to go show them their competitors logos in the logo farm, I'm 223 00:15:24.910 --> 00:15:29.420 going to show them an industry specific case study all the way through to. I 224 00:15:29.420 --> 00:15:34.890 have no idea who this is and being able to do that 1 to 11 too few. One too 225 00:15:34.890 --> 00:15:39.460 many all in the same experience on the same website we find that helps 226 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.490 maximize revenue for B two B marketers. Tell me a little bit more about the 1 227 00:15:43.490 --> 00:15:46.430 to 1 experience because most of what I'm thinking about when it comes to 228 00:15:46.430 --> 00:15:50.250 work website personalization is like a one too few type of approach. How does 229 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:57.030 it become 1 to 1? So if you knew for example in that email or add somebody 230 00:15:57.030 --> 00:16:02.290 clicked on that that was targeted specifically to dan Sanchez and then I 231 00:16:02.290 --> 00:16:08.290 wanted to name your company. I wanted to put your rep on the site. I wanted 232 00:16:08.290 --> 00:16:12.620 to push you away. I'll make it up. You're a large enterprise. I don't want 233 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:16.240 you to go to self sir. I want to talk to a human that works for my company. 234 00:16:16.250 --> 00:16:21.790 Right? I can go change each of those experiences now. I can. Most of us I 235 00:16:21.790 --> 00:16:24.830 think are used to thinking, okay, well that's a B M. I'm going to do that with 236 00:16:24.830 --> 00:16:29.090 rules. I'm going to do if this then that statements we agree completely and 237 00:16:29.090 --> 00:16:33.960 think you can do even better. For example, what's the right way to say? 238 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:40.640 Acne Co in the headline of the page. Hi Agnico. Welcome back Acne Co. We think 239 00:16:40.640 --> 00:16:43.280 you're great company. Agnico, here's your competitor. Agnico, right? I'm 240 00:16:43.280 --> 00:16:47.360 making those up. You can use machine learning to say this is a B. M. 241 00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:51.410 But I don't know exactly the right way to do it. Right. And you actually get 242 00:16:51.410 --> 00:16:54.640 to not have this sort of religious debates internally, like what's the 243 00:16:54.640 --> 00:17:00.560 right way to say Agnico in the headline? You can use Ml paired with the rule, 244 00:17:00.560 --> 00:17:04.099 right? If they're on my target list, I want to name them in the headline, but 245 00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:08.079 then which version of the headline? Use I'm able to do that. Using machine 246 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:12.060 learning to do a better job of figuring out what version to show each visitor. 247 00:17:12.069 --> 00:17:17.410 You can apply that principle throughout the whole experience for the elements 248 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:21.800 that are a BME and for the elements that aren't like, what do I want to 249 00:17:21.800 --> 00:17:26.770 call the action to be or what, what sequence of things do I want on the 250 00:17:26.770 --> 00:17:29.370 page, You know, do I want to talk about the product first or about the 251 00:17:29.370 --> 00:17:33.900 customers first or about the industry first. You can then use ml to 252 00:17:33.910 --> 00:17:39.190 personalize those other elements in parallel to the abbey, any sort of 1-1 253 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:43.340 elements. Does that resonate? Gosh, it's like you put two things together 254 00:17:43.340 --> 00:17:47.120 that I normally don't put together in personalization and almost like this 255 00:17:47.120 --> 00:17:50.810 multi variant testing that the machine learning is doing. And I always kind of 256 00:17:50.810 --> 00:17:53.460 figured that those was kind of like you either do one or the other because 257 00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:56.470 they're really difficult to do together unless I guess you have machine 258 00:17:56.470 --> 00:17:59.990 learning driving the whole experience and can do more than just plug in 259 00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:05.140 insert name and can actually fiddle with the actual copy around the 260 00:18:05.150 --> 00:18:11.380 personalization. So it opens up a whole world and must be interesting to see 261 00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:14.390 how many different variations of a web page you can load if you have that kind 262 00:18:14.390 --> 00:18:18.240 of thing going on almost like your website. So leaving living breathing 263 00:18:18.250 --> 00:18:22.030 thing. Um, still you have to put parameters on it, right? You have to 264 00:18:22.040 --> 00:18:25.350 give it like a character, limit what it can do for a headline before it starts 265 00:18:25.350 --> 00:18:29.970 to throw off the site design, right? And what you said resonates so strongly 266 00:18:29.970 --> 00:18:34.590 and we so often hear these are two strategies to budgets, two teams, and 267 00:18:34.590 --> 00:18:37.840 ultimately they're both in service of making more money. And so I'm totally 268 00:18:37.840 --> 00:18:43.620 with you on sort of, the mindset shift and on the variations you can load, I'm 269 00:18:43.620 --> 00:18:47.850 with you. In fact, our average customer over the last two years tried 177 270 00:18:47.850 --> 00:18:52.330 different ideas, had they done that with traditional split testing, that 271 00:18:52.330 --> 00:18:53.770 would have taken a quarter century, 272 00:18:55.240 --> 00:19:01.130 but using Ml they didn't do 177 they optimized across the 78 million 273 00:19:01.130 --> 00:19:06.340 possible combinations out of those 177 which is a mere mortal. Humans can't do, 274 00:19:06.340 --> 00:19:09.210 it would take too long. And the things themselves to your point about 275 00:19:09.210 --> 00:19:14.750 character limits totally with you. We ultimately, these are humans coming up 276 00:19:14.750 --> 00:19:20.020 with ideas. Humans getting more time to do this stuff, we're uniquely good at 277 00:19:20.020 --> 00:19:23.300 doing. We're uniquely great and empathizing with our prospective 278 00:19:23.300 --> 00:19:28.310 customers were uniquely great at creatively coming up with ideas to 279 00:19:28.310 --> 00:19:31.260 control them further through the funnel to get them to become customers. 280 00:19:31.270 --> 00:19:36.330 Machines are particularly good at acting at 1 to 1 level of precision 281 00:19:36.340 --> 00:19:40.500 listening and responding 24 7, effectively auto updating these rules 282 00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:44.510 all the time every few minutes. And so yes, a human puts the character limit 283 00:19:44.510 --> 00:19:47.760 by saying this is a brand safe thing I want to put on my site. Machine 284 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:50.250 learning can do a better job than we can of figuring out what do I show to 285 00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:54.600 him and then to your last point you can then overlay rules with the machine 286 00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:58.090 learning, right? You can say these five headlines. I show them my best 287 00:19:58.090 --> 00:20:01.980 customers. These five headlines, I showed them to the folks, I really 288 00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:04.610 don't want to talk to my sales team, I want them to go to Self sir. And then 289 00:20:04.610 --> 00:20:10.050 let the machine learning within those ma'am now it's part of the conversation 290 00:20:10.050 --> 00:20:13.400 that was really looking forward to, let's dive into machine learning. And 291 00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:17.520 just because I've always had a hesitancy with machine learning knowing 292 00:20:17.520 --> 00:20:20.680 that like oh my gosh, I would always think like machine learning was for the 293 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:26.010 big guys, the amazons, the Expedia's that people with millions, hundreds of 294 00:20:26.010 --> 00:20:29.400 millions of page views that can split tests, I mean the machine can take over 295 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.490 because it has so much data to play with and maybe that's something I've 296 00:20:32.490 --> 00:20:37.300 been told, maybe incorrectly that it takes a lot of data for machines to 297 00:20:37.300 --> 00:20:40.920 learn. But you were telling me just on this protocol, that might not be the 298 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:45.250 case. So tell me why, why doesn't it take so much data? Or is that is that 299 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:48.310 total misconception? Where does that misconception come out of? And how much 300 00:20:48.310 --> 00:20:52.300 data does it actually take for a machine to learn uh even in a split 301 00:20:52.300 --> 00:20:58.460 test combination where you have 150 headlines to test then I I think the 302 00:20:58.460 --> 00:21:01.950 question is fought on, I think we've all been trained on that. You read 303 00:21:01.950 --> 00:21:07.600 about deep learning in the press. That particular approach to machine learning 304 00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:12.400 was built for google level data to go figure out how do you understand, you 305 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.560 know things like what's in an image and to take that approach, you need that 306 00:21:16.570 --> 00:21:21.000 amazon Expedia level of data, you can take a bunch of very experienced 307 00:21:21.010 --> 00:21:24.150 machine learning folks and create a different approach. I'm very fortunate 308 00:21:24.150 --> 00:21:28.170 to work with two co founders who were the two most senior engineers that led 309 00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:32.720 a several 100 person team that used Ml to personalize the yahoo homepage for 310 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.250 more than half a decade when it was the most popular page on the internet that 311 00:21:36.250 --> 00:21:40.920 led to some insights on how to do this with very little data. So those 78 312 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:45.440 million possible combinations versions of the page we tell our customers hey 313 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:51.460 in every scenario using MLB faster than split testing. But a good rule of thumb. 314 00:21:52.040 --> 00:21:55.670 I was in a day, you're getting 1000 a day. That's a good balance between 315 00:21:55.670 --> 00:21:59.860 trying all of your ideas at the same time and getting answers quickly and 316 00:21:59.860 --> 00:22:03.900 that's limitations for us, mere mortal marketers, not the limitations of the M 317 00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:08.000 L. It will be faster and how do you do that? It truly is a different approach 318 00:22:08.010 --> 00:22:11.540 like there 30 or 40 people in the world that are really good at this kind of ml 319 00:22:11.540 --> 00:22:15.950 we feel very fortunate to work with a bunch of them and it yeah, I'm with you. 320 00:22:15.950 --> 00:22:20.760 That is a hard science problem to solve. It is counterintuitive. Um part of 321 00:22:20.770 --> 00:22:24.970 being able to solve that is actually choosing to solve a different problem, 322 00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:27.700 recognizing ultimately it's about money. We're trying to make more money, we're 323 00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:31.680 trying to drive more leads to sales to get more customers. We're used to split 324 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:35.930 testing where you say I need a big pile of data, I'm gonna try to things and 325 00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:38.490 I'm gonna wait until there's a statistically significant difference 326 00:22:38.490 --> 00:22:42.060 between the two of them. So, you know, more data, I get to learn faster. I 327 00:22:42.060 --> 00:22:46.840 gotta wait if instead you say that's the wrong problem to solve to make more 328 00:22:46.840 --> 00:22:50.990 money. I'm gonna Instead every few minutes try to get better at predicting 329 00:22:50.990 --> 00:22:54.960 human behavior every few minutes. I'm gonna try to be better than I was a few 330 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:58.660 minutes ago at predicting human behavior. If you frame the problem that 331 00:22:58.660 --> 00:23:02.950 way, you actually can take a totally different approach and drive a whole 332 00:23:02.950 --> 00:23:07.160 lot of lift a whole bunch sooner because you're not making a decision 333 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.070 forever. If you're making a decision forever. Like with split testing, you 334 00:23:11.070 --> 00:23:15.070 gotta get really good at making sure it's not the wrong answer. You need, 335 00:23:15.070 --> 00:23:18.180 you use statistical significance for that. If instead you're saying I just 336 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:21.480 need to be better, there was a few minutes ago, it's a very different 337 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:26.490 problem to solve and that allows you to learn every step of the way it allows 338 00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:29.720 you to learn off a whole lot less traffic because your goal again is not 339 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.170 to be perfect to be better than you were a few minutes ago. The net result, 340 00:23:33.540 --> 00:23:37.530 you actually get results sooner. You make more money along the way and you 341 00:23:37.530 --> 00:23:38.860 personalized for each visitor. 342 00:23:40.040 --> 00:23:43.660 That's interesting. So essentially it's, it's just making choices faster. You're 343 00:23:43.660 --> 00:23:51.030 lowering the threshold from 95, or whatever Accuracy to a lower threshold 344 00:23:51.040 --> 00:23:53.650 in order for it to start making decisions sooner. So it's taking groups, 345 00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:57.910 maybe a little cohorts of 20 or 30 watching it being like, Okay, based on 346 00:23:57.910 --> 00:24:01.370 just the small test, we're thinking it's going to be more like this, which 347 00:24:01.370 --> 00:24:04.900 means it can start test ruling in different factors a lot sooner. Is that 348 00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:09.480 about right? It is very much the right mentality. It is taking small groups 349 00:24:09.490 --> 00:24:14.350 every few minutes. It's updating itself. The counter intuitive thing, static is 350 00:24:14.350 --> 00:24:20.160 actually not the goal. It's not that it raised or lowered stat. Sig it said, I 351 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:24.460 need to do I need to refine my prediction every few minutes. Static is 352 00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:28.310 important for us. The marketers, it's an important mile marker along the way 353 00:24:28.320 --> 00:24:33.640 to be able to say, do I want to bank this? Do I want to use this in my email 354 00:24:33.650 --> 00:24:36.500 because I learned something new. Do I want to use this in my ads. Do I want 355 00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:41.220 to use this in direct mail. Do I want to use this in redesigning my website? 356 00:24:41.230 --> 00:24:45.960 But for the machine learning, it actually doesn't care? Its goal is not 357 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:49.400 to reach that. Sig its goal is to continuously improve. And it turns out 358 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.160 that if you do that, you actually reach that six sooner. So it's not that it 359 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:57.830 lowered the bar, solve the different problem. That's interesting. I don't 360 00:24:57.830 --> 00:25:01.960 quite understand the math behind it, but that's why I'm not a computer 361 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.790 scientists dealing with these kinds of things. So I'd like to take more into 362 00:25:04.790 --> 00:25:08.960 and understand the uh kind of the math behind what it's doing because I'm 363 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.110 still it's still using some kind of calculations in order to get the 364 00:25:12.110 --> 00:25:16.450 learning right, has to use has to it's a computer. So it has to use some kind 365 00:25:16.450 --> 00:25:21.920 of statistical variance to know you are totally right and the difference is 366 00:25:21.930 --> 00:25:25.540 it's incrementally getting better rather than like here's our final 367 00:25:25.540 --> 00:25:30.430 answer um happily, that's produced on average, across all of our customers. 368 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:37.500 46% lift across everybody over the last two years. Looker used us to drive 44% 369 00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:44.670 more downstream. Stage two qualified leads drift 300% 322% more SQL s 370 00:25:44.740 --> 00:25:50.060 Tableau 40% more digital transactions using this approach. These are well 371 00:25:50.060 --> 00:25:54.440 known brands. Not only get a huge amount of traffic to be able to do that 372 00:25:54.450 --> 00:26:00.870 is enabled in part by framing the problem differently this way, wow. So 373 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.050 if you're a small player and not one of these huge brands, how do you get 374 00:26:04.050 --> 00:26:07.370 started? What do you even know? Do you just have to wait until you're a huge 375 00:26:07.370 --> 00:26:11.780 brand to be able to test this out? It's a great question. Two parts of the 376 00:26:11.780 --> 00:26:12.860 answer. one. 377 00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:18.900 If you have the resources to devote to it, I humbly submit, go do this right 378 00:26:18.900 --> 00:26:23.380 away because you get to skip learning a whole bunch about stacks, checking this 379 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:25.730 thing every day, bugging engineering. Every time you find a winner, right? 380 00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:29.110 All the things you have to do with split testing, you get to focus more 381 00:26:29.110 --> 00:26:33.940 time on empathizing with your customers and coming up with creative ideas to 382 00:26:33.950 --> 00:26:38.830 turn prospects into customers. That's great. If you don't have the resources 383 00:26:38.830 --> 00:26:43.950 to go after it then humbly submitted. The way we normally think about a B. M. 384 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:49.400 With rules. Great. Go give that a shot, go try them out. Right. If you're 385 00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:53.470 getting If you don't have the resources internally or if you're getting on and 386 00:26:53.470 --> 00:26:56.930 I'll make it up 10 a day. Right? If you're getting 10 visitors a day, data 387 00:26:56.930 --> 00:27:00.820 driven marketing will be hard. You should use your intuition. Absolutely. 388 00:27:00.950 --> 00:27:05.510 So you're recommending just sticking with rules for now in doing the split 389 00:27:05.510 --> 00:27:08.400 test, doing those kinds of things and working your way up to the point where 390 00:27:08.410 --> 00:27:11.710 you can afford some machine learning tools, but do you have any like machine 391 00:27:11.710 --> 00:27:17.100 learning tools specifically that are maybe basic but can still show you the 392 00:27:17.100 --> 00:27:21.780 power of what machine learning can do in website personalization. I wish I 393 00:27:21.780 --> 00:27:27.160 had a better answer to that To me. It is primarily around the resources you 394 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:33.310 have the attention, you can give this. And if you don't have those or you have 395 00:27:33.310 --> 00:27:37.970 like 10 a day on traffic, then I would suggest using if this then that or 396 00:27:37.970 --> 00:27:43.140 straight split testing. Straight baby testing. I transparently don't don't 397 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:48.830 have a great answer on like what's an inexpensive way or or to do Ml happily 398 00:27:48.830 --> 00:27:54.120 Ml When correctly applied, he's a big force multiplier for us, right? Like 399 00:27:54.130 --> 00:27:57.140 none of the marketers with whom we work would have time to create 78 million 400 00:27:57.140 --> 00:28:02.450 different ideas. No human would And most of them did not create 177 401 00:28:02.450 --> 00:28:05.990 different pieces of new content. They? Re used a bunch of content they already 402 00:28:05.990 --> 00:28:09.830 had on their site, they tweet headlines, they changed calls to action, but like 403 00:28:09.830 --> 00:28:12.590 a whole new case study, they didn't go to that. They used the stuff they 404 00:28:12.590 --> 00:28:17.970 already had and were able to get more bang for the buck off the investments 405 00:28:17.970 --> 00:28:22.200 they've already made using Ml And again, if you don't have the resources to go 406 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.810 do that, you know, do straight split test or try try rules would be my 407 00:28:26.810 --> 00:28:31.370 humble suggestion. Fantastic. I don't think as you were talking to mike, I 408 00:28:31.370 --> 00:28:34.640 think this is this is kind of a hack and maybe a shortcut way of using 409 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.860 machine learning or using someone else's machine learning tool and then 410 00:28:37.870 --> 00:28:40.990 kind of applying it to a different setting. But I do find that it works a 411 00:28:40.990 --> 00:28:45.430 little bit. One thing I've done is take advantage of Facebook's algorithm 412 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.850 because Facebook's really good at figuring out which add an image 413 00:28:48.850 --> 00:28:53.150 combination in which text is going to work now is not personalized, but you 414 00:28:53.150 --> 00:28:57.740 can still find a test 150, literally 150 different headlines with a bunch of 415 00:28:57.740 --> 00:29:01.140 different images go out and spend a couple 100 bucks on facebook and it'll 416 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:03.540 tell you which one works better and then you just go and put that on your 417 00:29:03.540 --> 00:29:06.580 home page or your landing page because it's probably gonna be better than the 418 00:29:06.580 --> 00:29:09.860 ones before, even though it's in a different context, so it's not a true 419 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:15.590 Fit, but it's probably going to be better than the bottom 50% of what you 420 00:29:15.600 --> 00:29:21.790 put out there to test dan. That is a great idea. I'm gonna share that with 421 00:29:21.790 --> 00:29:27.430 others if that's okay with you. Uh, it resonates a lot. It's not an accident 422 00:29:27.430 --> 00:29:30.130 that the thing we're talking about doing on websites feels a lot like what 423 00:29:30.130 --> 00:29:33.540 you just described in ads because I spent the last 15 years in antec right? 424 00:29:33.540 --> 00:29:38.390 We, it made no sense to us at all did facebook or google will say, hey, give 425 00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:41.890 me five search creative, I'll figure out the right ones to show to whom I'll 426 00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:46.270 show the better ones more. I'll show the worst ones less. Nobody done that 427 00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:50.910 on websites. The bottom of the funnel where this money is actually made. Okay. 428 00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:54.840 So we did. And what you're talking about is a proxy for, how do I get that 429 00:29:54.840 --> 00:29:58.110 research in the end? I'm not going to personalize on my site using that 430 00:29:58.110 --> 00:30:00.890 approach. Right. I'm gonna do winner take all the show everybody the same 431 00:30:00.890 --> 00:30:05.730 experience. But I will learn right. It's I, I can to your point, you are 432 00:30:05.730 --> 00:30:10.210 effectively running a multi variant test on more traffic than you get to 433 00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:13.860 your website because you're paying for the impressions. That's it. If you're 434 00:30:13.860 --> 00:30:17.490 going to run a multi variant test to go find a winner, take all winter to put 435 00:30:17.490 --> 00:30:21.230 on your site. That's a thoughtful way to do it. At least. That's what I 436 00:30:21.230 --> 00:30:24.360 usually tell customers who want to run facebook ads and I'm like, I don't 437 00:30:24.360 --> 00:30:26.890 expect a lot of conversions on the front and think of it as like market 438 00:30:26.890 --> 00:30:32.600 research. Right. And then maybe we go get some great zero later. Great lead. 439 00:30:32.610 --> 00:30:36.640 A great amount of leads later. It's been a fascinating conversation guy. If 440 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:41.460 people want to learn more about this topic of website personalization 441 00:30:41.460 --> 00:30:45.780 machine learning and how you can apply to a B. M, where can they find you 442 00:30:45.780 --> 00:30:50.090 online and your company in order to learn more. You generously shared 443 00:30:50.090 --> 00:30:54.530 earlier in televised dot com. Uh, it will have a bunch of content around 444 00:30:54.530 --> 00:30:59.040 this. We've done a bunch of webinars taught a couple of course, is really 445 00:30:59.040 --> 00:31:04.180 tried to talk to us as fellow marketers about how to get the most out of m. L 446 00:31:04.190 --> 00:31:10.610 uh in your marketing efforts. And for me um G Y A L I F on twitter, my handle 447 00:31:10.610 --> 00:31:14.050 first initial last night. G Leaf look forward to continuing the conversation 448 00:31:14.050 --> 00:31:18.310 there and dan, thank you so very, very much for having me too. Fantastic. 449 00:31:18.320 --> 00:31:23.370 Thanks again for joining me on GDP growth. One of the things we've learned 450 00:31:23.370 --> 00:31:28.090 about podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, 451 00:31:28.090 --> 00:31:31.690 really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you 452 00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:35.720 texted a friend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a 453 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:40.010 screenshot of the text you sent to your friend, meta. I know I'll send you a 454 00:31:40.010 --> 00:31:43.410 copy of my book, content based networking, how to instantly connect 455 00:31:43.420 --> 00:31:50.640 with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8. Happy 456 00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:51.450 texting