Transitioning From Paid to Earned/Owned Media w/Gaetano DiNardi

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.340 --> 00:00:08.950 welcome back to BTB growth. I'm dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and I'm 3 00:00:08.950 --> 00:00:13.170 here with Gitano de Nardi who was formerly the head of growth and demand 4 00:00:13.170 --> 00:00:18.930 gen and next Eva gitano, welcome back to the show. What's up dan? It's always 5 00:00:18.930 --> 00:00:23.440 a pleasure talking with you so thanks for having me. Absolutely. I've been 6 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:29.470 excited to talk to you about this to get your take on the evolution of paid 7 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:35.080 owned and earned media in B2B marketing specifically paid personally I've been 8 00:00:35.080 --> 00:00:39.030 seeing some trends of paid media becoming a lot harder over the last 9 00:00:39.030 --> 00:00:43.300 year, year and a half. I know over the last five years it's becoming 10 00:00:43.300 --> 00:00:47.790 increasingly more saturated on your paid advertising, your PPC side with 11 00:00:47.790 --> 00:00:51.960 facebook google ads of course has been hard for a while. I almost look at like 12 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:59.010 the last decade of PPC in general just being fantastic and now I'm starting to 13 00:00:59.010 --> 00:01:03.170 see a slowdown. So I'm doing a series on paid owned and earned to try to 14 00:01:03.170 --> 00:01:05.980 figure out what the balance of these things looks like for me to be growth 15 00:01:05.990 --> 00:01:10.700 as well as owned media specifically. But before we jump into owned, I'd love 16 00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:16.190 to hear thoughts on paid media for B two B marketing in general. Has it had 17 00:01:16.190 --> 00:01:19.930 its heyday, is it starting to see a decrease or is it just changing and how 18 00:01:19.930 --> 00:01:25.870 it's going, what do you think? Yeah, great way to tee that up dan. So in 19 00:01:25.870 --> 00:01:32.270 terms of, you know, has paid media had its heyday or is it just changing uh 20 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:37.400 it's definitely changing for sure and the, some of the things that I see is 21 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:44.100 that saturation and competition is really hurting paid media just like 22 00:01:44.100 --> 00:01:49.560 it's hurting every other channel, like a Ceo youtube, social email, everything. 23 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:56.740 The Way B two B companies are running paid media is transforming. So what I 24 00:01:56.740 --> 00:02:04.720 see is that for example, unless you are salesforce or a Tier one premier level 25 00:02:04.720 --> 00:02:13.060 brand, you will not succeed by running generic landing pages, a book download 26 00:02:13.060 --> 00:02:19.970 campaigns on then very generic or generalized copy in your ads, you just 27 00:02:19.970 --> 00:02:26.230 won't win and brand is more crucial today Then it's ever been before. It 28 00:02:26.230 --> 00:02:31.370 sounds cliche when you hear yeah, brand brand brand, but really now in 2021 as 29 00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:37.550 we're heading into 2022, it is the most important factor aside from product 30 00:02:37.550 --> 00:02:43.430 quality and um, I know we're going to talk about earned reviews fall into 31 00:02:43.430 --> 00:02:48.300 that as well. But as you said, the last decade has been pretty, pretty golden, 32 00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:52.410 been like a golden decade. Up until now things are slowing down. But you used 33 00:02:52.410 --> 00:02:58.740 to be able to be successful by just focusing on bottom of final plays. It 34 00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:05.020 was the case that if you were a company that was only found through google, you 35 00:03:05.020 --> 00:03:09.560 could be successful and if you only focused on bottom of funnel plays like 36 00:03:09.570 --> 00:03:15.630 PPC affiliates and buying leads from sites like tech radar, you can really 37 00:03:15.630 --> 00:03:20.500 brute force your way through with outbound sales and ads, but today you 38 00:03:20.510 --> 00:03:24.490 can't get away with it anymore. And I think maybe that's how we can kick off 39 00:03:24.490 --> 00:03:31.390 the episode. So the old run an ad, get a lead. It's just not working anymore. 40 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:36.660 Not without a lot of work or thought a lot of brand to support it. So what is 41 00:03:36.660 --> 00:03:41.090 currently working in PPC, are you running like a mix of different types 42 00:03:41.090 --> 00:03:45.270 of content through, through ads just to kind of balance it out? Are you stair 43 00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:49.400 stepping it? So someone sees this type of ad interacts with it then get served 44 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:52.180 this type of ad or do you just kinda have like a bunch of things running in 45 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:55.360 the hopper? What is it, what is your ad set look like these days? Here's the 46 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:59.860 dirty little secret that a lot of markers don't want to admit or just 47 00:03:59.860 --> 00:04:08.160 won't tell you. And that is in the, in my time of doing this, I have never 48 00:04:08.740 --> 00:04:17.860 seen a google ads um configuration where a company can definitively say 49 00:04:18.740 --> 00:04:22.360 that we are profitable from our ads. 50 00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:30.120 And the problem is that you have growth at all costs mindset and you know, I've, 51 00:04:30.130 --> 00:04:35.820 I've personally audited SAAS companies google ads profiles And I've seen 52 00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:41.920 examples where companies are paying, you know, $50,000 a month to close 53 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:48.080 maybe 10 paying customers With an average contract value of like $2500 54 00:04:48.090 --> 00:04:54.560 and so the math is quite horrifying in many of these cases and there are 55 00:04:54.570 --> 00:04:58.470 examples lately that have come out Where brands and companies have 56 00:04:58.470 --> 00:05:02.280 launched experiments where they shut off all their PPC where they've shut 57 00:05:02.280 --> 00:05:09.400 off like 90% of their ads and nothing has changed. And I, I audited a saAS 58 00:05:09.400 --> 00:05:14.330 companies google ads account last year so they went public and they increased 59 00:05:14.330 --> 00:05:18.970 their spin by like they doubled their spin And they realized that they 60 00:05:18.970 --> 00:05:23.150 weren't getting any any return after doubling their spin. And then I went in 61 00:05:23.150 --> 00:05:28.160 there and I cut spending by like 70% because I found a ton of inefficiencies 62 00:05:28.940 --> 00:05:32.560 We can get into the inefficiencies in a second. But long story short is that I 63 00:05:32.570 --> 00:05:38.950 cut the spending by 70% and absolutely zero impact on pipeline or revenue 64 00:05:38.960 --> 00:05:43.630 after doing that. And so what is the point of all this? When you talk about 65 00:05:43.630 --> 00:05:49.740 the current state of PPC is waste, there's a tremendous level of waste. 66 00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:54.360 And um, you know, one reason why is because a lot of companies don't care 67 00:05:54.740 --> 00:05:59.620 cost per clicks are rising at an incredible rate in some industries. Uh, 68 00:05:59.630 --> 00:06:03.200 the one that I was most recently in, you CASS We're talking about $80 a 69 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:08.670 click and above just for the click. And then when you factor in that there's 70 00:06:08.670 --> 00:06:14.100 affiliates um that are extorting companies for a middle man payment. The 71 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:18.570 cost of acquisition is through the roof And when you have inexpensive products. 72 00:06:18.570 --> 00:06:22.330 But yeah, you have to pay $80 a click because it's so saturated and so 73 00:06:22.330 --> 00:06:25.930 competitive and there's so much money being poured into ads. Companies don't 74 00:06:25.930 --> 00:06:29.920 care. Uh, you know, Zoom is just going to brute force you out, ring central is 75 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.580 going to brute force you out. How do you keep up with that? If you don't 76 00:06:33.580 --> 00:06:40.560 have, if you don't have deep pockets, that is the challenge right now. So 77 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.950 what are you doing to combat that? You say you're still keeping it around, 78 00:06:43.950 --> 00:06:47.610 you're saying you're cutting things back from like 70% in some cases, but 79 00:06:47.610 --> 00:06:50.750 you're still keeping around a little nugget there, you still got 30% in the 80 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:55.990 game. So what are you doing with that extra? Yeah. So here's like, what I 81 00:06:55.990 --> 00:07:00.510 think is the transformation that's happening now is, and thankfully 82 00:07:00.510 --> 00:07:04.570 there's voices like chris walker and many others, hopefully myself is 83 00:07:04.570 --> 00:07:08.160 contributing to some of the changes happening. But companies are realizing 84 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:12.140 that you do have to figure out how to get out of the bottom of funnel hamster 85 00:07:12.140 --> 00:07:19.630 wheel, get out of the PPC S EO affiliate Who's ready to buy in the 86 00:07:19.630 --> 00:07:26.910 next month marketing and go way up funnel and figure out how do you market 87 00:07:26.910 --> 00:07:33.010 to the 90% of people who are not ready to buy today or or soon because if you 88 00:07:33.010 --> 00:07:36.670 catch them higher in the funnel, then everything is just easier because when 89 00:07:36.670 --> 00:07:40.840 you're scrapping at the bottom, it's often too late. And so I personally 90 00:07:40.840 --> 00:07:45.590 have not cracked that code and I will, I will just flat out say every company 91 00:07:45.590 --> 00:07:52.240 I've been at I've been pressured into uh you know subscribing to this bottom 92 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.890 of funnel, you know marketing machine. So every company have been at, they 93 00:07:56.900 --> 00:08:01.640 wanted me to really focused just on bottom of funnel. No companies have 94 00:08:01.650 --> 00:08:05.970 ever said to me. Yeah let's think about demand gen in a way that goes more top 95 00:08:05.970 --> 00:08:11.080 of funnel or is more brand oriented or is more higher final activity. It's 96 00:08:11.090 --> 00:08:15.330 always every single company I've been, we need leads, we need growth, we need, 97 00:08:15.340 --> 00:08:19.640 you know dollars and dollars out. We need P. P. C. S. C. O. Affiliates. And 98 00:08:19.640 --> 00:08:23.950 I, me personally I have never had the opportunity to market in a way that's 99 00:08:23.950 --> 00:08:28.750 different from that and that saddens me. But that's that's what companies want. 100 00:08:29.540 --> 00:08:33.289 And the only chance I've ever had it doing something you know, creative or 101 00:08:33.289 --> 00:08:37.650 fun or different has been sales hacker because when I was marketing there the 102 00:08:37.659 --> 00:08:43.929 product was not sas it was the audience. So we were selling attention. People. I 103 00:08:43.929 --> 00:08:47.950 mean it kind of comes with the title, demand gen. I mean with chris walker 104 00:08:47.950 --> 00:08:52.120 and his crew, he's kind of like the exception but almost everybody ever, 105 00:08:52.130 --> 00:08:55.320 everybody else ever met on the demand inside is almost always bottom of the 106 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:59.010 funnel performance marketing type stuff at least with all the customers I'm 107 00:08:59.010 --> 00:09:02.250 meeting with that sweet fish if there's a demand gen person in the, in the zoom 108 00:09:02.250 --> 00:09:06.650 room. I'm like yeah that person's running on PPC ads and doing bottom of 109 00:09:06.650 --> 00:09:11.750 the funnel stuff. Yes. And you know, the bottom of the funnel is super 110 00:09:11.750 --> 00:09:16.120 important. Like don't get me wrong, but you know like the industry I was I was 111 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.730 in most recently which is you cast and VoIP there is huge demand bottom of 112 00:09:20.730 --> 00:09:26.350 final demand for that, but that's only because the pandemic drove it to insane 113 00:09:26.350 --> 00:09:31.330 levels that it has never seen before. So there are certain industries that 114 00:09:31.330 --> 00:09:37.380 the pandemic has driven like crazy amount of demand for without marketers 115 00:09:37.380 --> 00:09:41.970 doing anything, It just happened because of circumstances. So marketers 116 00:09:41.970 --> 00:09:45.990 got lucky. Yeah, the market changed, right? You don't have any control over 117 00:09:45.990 --> 00:09:49.260 that. Sometimes, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's 118 00:09:49.260 --> 00:09:53.490 great. Sometimes it's sometimes the markets dying, you're like, no, you're 119 00:09:53.490 --> 00:09:59.800 pivoting. Yeah, exactly. But it's, you know, you want to find marketers who 120 00:09:59.800 --> 00:10:07.160 have created demand without the help of a pandemic. Who are those marketers and 121 00:10:07.160 --> 00:10:10.960 where are they? Uh those are the kinds of marketers you want you want to find. 122 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:14.730 And so when I think about hiring, like that's why I look for I look for like 123 00:10:14.740 --> 00:10:18.740 marketers who have been like scrappy underdog companies that have fought 124 00:10:18.740 --> 00:10:23.160 back against giants. Like I've done in every role I've ever had in my career. 125 00:10:23.640 --> 00:10:27.870 Yeah. Now that I think of it I've been an underdog scrappy, you know, fighting 126 00:10:27.870 --> 00:10:31.650 against the big guys that every single role I've ever had, you're like, 127 00:10:31.660 --> 00:10:34.870 wouldn't it be nice to work for the big guy with the massive budgets, of course, 128 00:10:34.870 --> 00:10:37.670 maybe you're like your arms are tied behind your back, if you're working for 129 00:10:37.670 --> 00:10:40.300 one of those companies, I've never worked for one of those companies, so I 130 00:10:40.300 --> 00:10:43.500 only know what it's like to work with a limited budget, trying to be creative, 131 00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:48.030 right? Yeah, Next evil was the biggest company I've ever worked for. Um in my 132 00:10:48.030 --> 00:10:51.740 time there, the company went from 70 million to over 200 million and there 133 00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:56.200 are, But I truly think my sweet spot is like getting a company from like 10 134 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:00.630 million to like 50-60, 70 million and then maybe it gets too big for me at 135 00:11:00.630 --> 00:11:04.360 that point, but like that pipe drive, that was the case and it was really fun 136 00:11:04.370 --> 00:11:08.910 at that stage. But you know, when I, when I think about just S SEO PPC in 137 00:11:08.910 --> 00:11:16.700 general, like search, it is really moving away from exact match long, long 138 00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:20.970 tail, exact match stuff is like kind of out of the picture now, like you really 139 00:11:20.970 --> 00:11:24.700 do just need to focus on keyword buckets, keyword themes and then, you 140 00:11:24.700 --> 00:11:28.170 know, the google machine has gotten really smart, so if you, for example, 141 00:11:28.170 --> 00:11:35.040 if you're setting up had ad campaigns that are targeting competitors in PPC, 142 00:11:35.050 --> 00:11:40.250 it may be good enough, let's say your pipe drive today, it may be good enough 143 00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:46.250 to have an ad group that is called hubspot, you're going to target hubspot 144 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:51.250 and you can just set phrase match hubspot alternatives, hubspot 145 00:11:51.250 --> 00:11:56.610 competitors and hubspot pricing maybe even hubspot, some other things like 146 00:11:56.610 --> 00:12:00.770 that. So find like a couple of buckets and then just let it rip. And then what 147 00:12:00.770 --> 00:12:05.110 you want to do is monitor the negative search term report list because you 148 00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:08.830 want to monitor the search term report and then narrow it down with your 149 00:12:08.830 --> 00:12:14.230 negative or exclusion list and that when you see and then you feed all the 150 00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:18.340 insights that you're getting from paid into S. C. O. That that is that is how 151 00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:23.520 you scale. But you know the trouble is that, you know, hubspot is an insane 152 00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:28.890 brand. So unless you have a brand that can be somewhat you know, comparable to 153 00:12:28.890 --> 00:12:32.390 that and fight back like you can't be, you can't be an unknown. That's why 154 00:12:32.390 --> 00:12:35.560 monday dot com is so powerful because their brute forcing their way through. 155 00:12:35.940 --> 00:12:40.040 And so that that's what you're up against in PPC. And I think it's some 156 00:12:40.040 --> 00:12:45.650 of the hardest marketing to do today because you need add keywords, uh copy, 157 00:12:45.660 --> 00:12:50.760 landing pages, user experience conversion tracking, spend all these 158 00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:57.360 things to be in sync and um you have to know in keyword intent and the customer 159 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.730 types and customer segments and if you don't have all those things uh 160 00:13:00.740 --> 00:13:04.260 perfectly working in Harmony. I think you're you're going to be uh in a world 161 00:13:04.260 --> 00:13:07.850 of trouble. I love some of the nuggets. You just dropped it got pretty granular, 162 00:13:07.850 --> 00:13:10.820 but I'm like, I'm, I used to be, I don't know, I feel like I really got my 163 00:13:10.820 --> 00:13:14.490 start as a marketer through google adwords. Something about the simplicity 164 00:13:14.490 --> 00:13:18.680 of just having to write copy with a few, only a few words at a time and split 165 00:13:18.680 --> 00:13:23.150 testing. It was, it was a great, great place to start my career. But from what 166 00:13:23.150 --> 00:13:26.060 you're saying, I'm like, wow Edwards has changed a lot. I remember like it 167 00:13:26.060 --> 00:13:29.830 was all about how granular you can make it right. The more specific you can 168 00:13:29.830 --> 00:13:33.320 make those campaigns the better they performed. But, and I never turned on 169 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:37.100 their automated features because that was just, well they just weren't great 170 00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:40.190 at that. Facebook was always much better at the automated features like 171 00:13:40.190 --> 00:13:43.510 let facebook figure out who to target. It's not like they would let you target 172 00:13:43.510 --> 00:13:47.020 specific specific people anyway, but they were always pretty good at 173 00:13:47.020 --> 00:13:49.730 figuring it automatically. You're saying that google's google's kind of 174 00:13:49.730 --> 00:13:53.430 caught up, you can let it let them automated match the right adds to the 175 00:13:53.430 --> 00:13:56.740 right groups and keywords now, as long as you're keeping a good watch on the 176 00:13:56.740 --> 00:14:00.760 negative keyword list. Yeah. In many ways. Yes. Yeah. There's two, I think, 177 00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:04.260 I think there's two super important things you got to do is monitor the 178 00:14:04.260 --> 00:14:07.810 search term support and then really tighten up as much as you can with the 179 00:14:07.810 --> 00:14:11.960 exclusion list and then you really got to pay attention to the quality scores 180 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:18.330 because in a lot of scenarios, and especially in B b um, some of the 181 00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:22.860 highest intent search terms are, they can be quite long tail and quite 182 00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:28.690 obscure. And if you have low quality and maybe just take a step back if it's 183 00:14:28.690 --> 00:14:32.900 long tail and obscure, that means there's not a lot of volume and if you 184 00:14:32.900 --> 00:14:38.100 want to have those impressions and clicks, you have to have a high quality 185 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:43.270 score in order for google to say, yeah, I think that this ad from this company 186 00:14:43.280 --> 00:14:47.560 is most relevant for when this gets searched, and if you have a low quality 187 00:14:47.560 --> 00:14:50.860 score, you will be ineligible for impressions and you won't get any 188 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:54.970 clicks. And so that, you know, that's becoming another problem too, that I've 189 00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:59.590 seen is like, um, you know, companies are going to say like, hey, we need to 190 00:14:59.590 --> 00:15:03.670 spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, and then you look at your add account and 191 00:15:03.670 --> 00:15:06.430 you'll be like, damn, we're just not getting the clicks, what is it, low 192 00:15:06.430 --> 00:15:11.260 quality scores and, and that is something to, to really, I think pay a 193 00:15:11.260 --> 00:15:14.920 lot of attention to. And that is a combination of landing page experience, 194 00:15:14.930 --> 00:15:21.310 ad copy relevant, um, site links, side, extensions, mobile experience, all that 195 00:15:21.310 --> 00:15:26.840 ship. Hey, everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening to 196 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:30.810 the show for a while, you know, we're big proponents of putting out original 197 00:15:30.820 --> 00:15:34.860 organic content on linked in. But one thing that's always been a struggle for 198 00:15:34.860 --> 00:15:39.530 a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linked in content. That's 199 00:15:39.530 --> 00:15:42.850 why I was really excited when I heard about Shield the other day from a 200 00:15:42.850 --> 00:15:47.370 connection on you guessed it linked in since our team started using Shield, 201 00:15:47.380 --> 00:15:51.910 I've loved how it's led us easily track and analyze the performance of our 202 00:15:51.910 --> 00:15:55.920 linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It 203 00:15:55.930 --> 00:15:59.300 automatically creates reports and generate some dashboards that are 204 00:15:59.300 --> 00:16:03.560 incredibly useful to see things like what contents been performing the best 205 00:16:03.570 --> 00:16:07.050 and what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our 206 00:16:07.060 --> 00:16:10.920 average views per post. I highly suggest you guys check out this tool. 207 00:16:10.930 --> 00:16:14.640 If you're putting out content on linked in and if you're not, you should be, 208 00:16:14.650 --> 00:16:19.880 It's been a game changer for us. If you go to shield app dot Ai and check out 209 00:16:19.890 --> 00:16:24.770 the 10 day free trial, you can even use our promo code B two B growth to get a 210 00:16:24.770 --> 00:16:31.400 25% discount again. That's shield app dot Ai. And that promo code is b the 211 00:16:31.400 --> 00:16:39.270 number to be growth. All one word. All right, let's get back to the show. Yeah, 212 00:16:39.280 --> 00:16:42.820 it's a lot more. It's a lot more than just the ads. It's the whole it's the 213 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:46.350 whole funnel you really get optimized in order to make those ads worth it, 214 00:16:47.040 --> 00:16:51.410 What do you think about blending paid and owned essentially taking your own 215 00:16:51.410 --> 00:16:56.130 media and then amplifying it with paid? Do you think that's a good where people 216 00:16:56.130 --> 00:16:59.760 should be spending more of their paid dollars? And if so like what percent? 217 00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:04.680 Oh that's yeah, that's a good one. I mean, yes, here's here's the thing that 218 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:09.200 a lot of people just have to accept right now. And that is the way social 219 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:15.329 algorithms work and the way that social algorithms work is that organic reach 220 00:17:15.329 --> 00:17:20.839 is extremely limited with the exception of linkedin and Tiktok. So you're gonna 221 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:25.470 get nowhere on facebook twitter instagram and you're certainly gonna 222 00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:29.580 get nowhere without pain amplification. And I hope that, you know, unless 223 00:17:29.580 --> 00:17:32.950 you're doing like, unless you're selling toothbrushes or you know, t 224 00:17:32.950 --> 00:17:37.860 shirts, like you're not going to get like, you know, sales doing instagram 225 00:17:37.860 --> 00:17:41.840 ads for B two B. I mean you might, but it's just not likely, especially for 226 00:17:41.840 --> 00:17:46.930 expensive products. But the deal is like, if you think of, what do people 227 00:17:46.930 --> 00:17:52.780 like me do late at night? You know, I'm a decision maker. I'm a technology by R 228 00:17:52.780 --> 00:17:57.690 and B two B. Marketing, what am I doing at nine o'clock at night? Well, um I 229 00:17:57.690 --> 00:18:04.340 don't watch the news. So what do I do I spend time on social media sites, like, 230 00:18:04.430 --> 00:18:10.480 like instagram and I read like tech blogs and stuff, right? So companies 231 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:15.060 like clear bit, have found ways to advertise to people like me late night 232 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:20.020 and why am I mentioning clear but now because their ads are memorable And so 233 00:18:20.030 --> 00:18:25.400 they are an example of marketing to the 90% of people who are not thinking 234 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:29.250 about them and who do not want to buy a clear bit. Right now. There the day 235 00:18:29.250 --> 00:18:34.100 will come where I will need some kind of data enrichment solution and I'm 236 00:18:34.100 --> 00:18:38.250 probably going to go to clear bit because I'm talking about them now and 237 00:18:38.250 --> 00:18:43.210 I remember them and uh, it's, it's kind of the same thing I wrote about in 238 00:18:43.210 --> 00:18:47.440 lengthen the other day that had a huge reaction, which is the company in Miami 239 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:52.530 that targeted me for three months on instagram before I even clicked. And 240 00:18:52.540 --> 00:18:56.030 you know, you can say that, okay, optimizing for the impression is still 241 00:18:56.030 --> 00:18:58.430 good even without getting the click because you're, you know, 242 00:18:58.430 --> 00:19:02.520 subconsciously penetrating someone's mind. Uh, such as clear bit. Like when 243 00:19:02.520 --> 00:19:06.090 I see their video ads, I don't ever click, I just watched them. Right. So 244 00:19:06.090 --> 00:19:11.120 then how do you measure adds engagement? How much time was spent, video watch 245 00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:15.490 through that matters? Is your message getting through that matters. So anyway, 246 00:19:15.490 --> 00:19:18.180 back to the thing about the company that targeted me for three months 247 00:19:18.180 --> 00:19:23.440 before I clicked. I finally clicked after three months and I didn't buy 248 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:28.220 anything. But now I know the company exists, I may go directly to their 249 00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:33.240 website later on whenever I need a cool date idea to do in Miami. They were 250 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.960 advertising candlelit rooftop dinners with live orchestra. It's pretty cool. 251 00:19:37.970 --> 00:19:44.020 But that's the difference in DDB ads today is that you cannot treat social 252 00:19:44.170 --> 00:19:48.380 like PPC and you certainly can't measure it that way. And executives 253 00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:52.940 have to change their mindset when it comes to this stuff. And the final 254 00:19:52.940 --> 00:19:57.710 point is that companies give up too soon. They run ads for like two weeks. 255 00:19:57.710 --> 00:20:01.230 They don't see quote unquote leads and they're like ship they, this ain't 256 00:20:01.230 --> 00:20:06.770 working, let's let's, you know, Canon. But the reality is like you, there is 257 00:20:06.770 --> 00:20:11.120 so much noise, you need a lot of impressions before somebody decides to 258 00:20:11.120 --> 00:20:15.580 click now and so you need patience. Uh, and you need to use a lot of different 259 00:20:15.580 --> 00:20:22.270 creative techniques and not use just generic, uh, you know, static display 260 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.520 ads, you gotta switch it up and use different stuff and that's where I 261 00:20:27.520 --> 00:20:31.280 think it's up. What I'm hearing. It takes quite a variety of different 262 00:20:31.280 --> 00:20:34.710 content and you can't be dependent on it, converting and you giving, getting 263 00:20:34.710 --> 00:20:38.990 the data like in your facebook ad set. So your, your cost per acquisition 264 00:20:38.990 --> 00:20:42.510 according to facebook or google is going to be through the roof. But it 265 00:20:42.510 --> 00:20:46.870 might not be as bad as you think because if you ask your customers, like 266 00:20:46.870 --> 00:20:51.170 if you that instagram ad you saw, if they ask you, how did you hear about us? 267 00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:54.970 You tell him I saw it on an instagram ad of course you're a marketer. So you 268 00:20:54.970 --> 00:20:57.770 know the difference between what you're seeing and I think most people would 269 00:20:57.770 --> 00:21:01.340 now, if you just ask your customers, they're probably going to remember 270 00:21:01.340 --> 00:21:05.160 seeing the add quite a bit, especially if you dive into a few depending on how 271 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.250 many you have coming through all the time into their journey and how, how it 272 00:21:08.250 --> 00:21:12.600 went from. Hey, first becoming problem aware like when did it first become an 273 00:21:12.600 --> 00:21:15.670 issue or maybe it wasn't an issue and you just start, you just discovered us, 274 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:19.530 tell me the story those ads are going to come up and that should be noted, 275 00:21:19.530 --> 00:21:23.340 right? Not that there's like a perfect mathematical way of keeping track of it 276 00:21:23.340 --> 00:21:26.880 all, but you'll hear about it like the problem is it takes a lot longer for 277 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:31.210 that to trickle down. Right? Yes. I think there's two things that come to 278 00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:35.840 mind based on what you said to me. One is that if you did add, how did you 279 00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:41.420 hear about us field in your sign up form, you would get an incredible 280 00:21:41.420 --> 00:21:47.120 amount of uh, qualitative data. Companies are reluctant to do this 281 00:21:47.120 --> 00:21:53.060 because they are afraid of doing the work that is required to analyze. 282 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:59.630 Freeform tax responses. It's really not that hard though, right? It's not, but 283 00:21:59.630 --> 00:22:04.280 companies don't want to, you know, break the machine. Right? Like think 284 00:22:04.280 --> 00:22:09.070 about it. The forums are locked in to all across the web site. There can be 285 00:22:09.070 --> 00:22:12.680 hundreds of submissions a day, all that information is perfectly sync and 286 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:16.500 flowing into a salesforce account exactly the way they need it, it's a 287 00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:21.780 big disruption to add an extra field and start looking at all that 288 00:22:21.780 --> 00:22:26.300 information. Um So companies are reluctant to do that, but if they did, 289 00:22:26.300 --> 00:22:31.110 I'm sure that they would be pleasantly surprised by what they saw. Um It would 290 00:22:31.110 --> 00:22:34.440 be some phenomenal marketing insights, but companies just don't do it because 291 00:22:34.450 --> 00:22:40.100 of the, you know, pain of labor if they want to call it that and then you know 292 00:22:40.100 --> 00:22:45.760 the creative men, the Creative uh It's an afterthought nowadays I see 293 00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:50.830 companies spending so much time fussing over the targeting criteria, the 294 00:22:50.830 --> 00:22:58.400 keywords, the ad groups, even the copy. But then when it gets down to like the 295 00:22:58.410 --> 00:23:02.810 landing page or the display creative, it's just like yeah, let's just pull 296 00:23:02.810 --> 00:23:07.440 something off the shelf. Uh huh. Uh And that's why the companies who are 297 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.700 winning are the companies who don't do that. I can tell that, you know monday 298 00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:16.100 dot com is not just pulling something off the shelf. They are making 299 00:23:16.100 --> 00:23:20.340 commercials, like their videos are legit commercials and that's the 300 00:23:20.340 --> 00:23:26.420 difference. Yeah, none of that. Uh Stock b roll over voiceover, right? 301 00:23:26.430 --> 00:23:32.570 Like everyone can kind of see through that one thing. Gosh, I did a lot of 302 00:23:32.570 --> 00:23:37.200 PPC over the last seven years and it was magical. But now it's becoming so 303 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:42.170 much harder to do. So I'm kind of curious to see like before, like would 304 00:23:42.170 --> 00:23:46.340 dominate a budget now. Where do you think PPC sits like if you have to 305 00:23:46.340 --> 00:23:50.980 allocate dollars including like staffing dollars, where do you see it 306 00:23:50.980 --> 00:23:55.840 fitting between like the three major silos of like paper click owned media, 307 00:23:55.850 --> 00:23:58.850 earned media? How do you, how do you allocate these these days? 308 00:24:00.140 --> 00:24:06.920 You know, I always, I always put human resources and investing in people at 309 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:12.090 the top of the priority chain for me, you know, I'm from, I'm from the school 310 00:24:12.090 --> 00:24:16.670 of thought of let's let's scale appropriately and let's not do it the 311 00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:20.650 other way around. So I like it. I like putting people at the top and then if I 312 00:24:20.650 --> 00:24:26.270 had to break out a spend mix, you know, it's a, it's a really tough question 313 00:24:26.270 --> 00:24:29.330 because like you have to really consider what kind of product is it, 314 00:24:29.330 --> 00:24:34.050 how expensive, how much pressure is there to grow? Like all those all those 315 00:24:34.050 --> 00:24:39.910 things are are factors and to be quite, you know, just blunt with you. I've 316 00:24:39.910 --> 00:24:44.900 never had a situation where uh an executive said to me, what is your 317 00:24:44.900 --> 00:24:49.230 ideal spend mix? It's always been, here's what the spend mix is, go make 318 00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:54.330 it work. So I've never had that freedom actually to make those decisions and 319 00:24:54.330 --> 00:24:57.940 choices. So I don't know if I can speak to that one. Just given that I've never 320 00:24:57.940 --> 00:25:02.740 actually Had the opportunity to say, you know, Hey here's $10 million, 321 00:25:02.740 --> 00:25:07.360 divided up, how you see fit. I've never had the opportunity to do that before. 322 00:25:07.370 --> 00:25:11.220 And so I don't know if I had that much money to play with over like a certain 323 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:15.890 period of time, my personal gut reaction is, I already know I would put 324 00:25:15.890 --> 00:25:19.370 like the majority of that to people and try not to waste on, you know, money on 325 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:24.220 ads, but I've never personally had an opportunity before to make those 326 00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:30.080 choices some day it's coming, where do you sit on earned media worth it not 327 00:25:30.080 --> 00:25:34.520 worth it. It's, it's important man, earned media is important. I mean 328 00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:38.490 there's, there's two things that that hit you right away when I, when I think 329 00:25:38.490 --> 00:25:43.230 about earned media, one is reviews that is a form of earned media. Um, and they 330 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:50.690 are arguably the biggest offsite factor when it comes to influencing buying 331 00:25:50.690 --> 00:25:56.780 decisions. So reviews are our key and I think any company needs to have like a 332 00:25:56.780 --> 00:26:02.610 lot of focus on reputation management and reviews that is absolutely of 333 00:26:02.620 --> 00:26:09.150 utmost importance. And then, you know, earned media can also be a function of 334 00:26:09.150 --> 00:26:14.990 like top of funnel pr and brand you can get, you know, you know, beyond like, 335 00:26:14.990 --> 00:26:20.600 hey, we raised money will go right about us. There are other ways to get 336 00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:24.920 companies to write about you and it can be, you know, cause marketing standing 337 00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:30.440 up for some kind of companies don't like doing this, but picking a side of 338 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.760 controversial issues standing up for something, What's the hill, you're 339 00:26:33.760 --> 00:26:37.370 prepared to die on as they say, what's your brand's character diamond look 340 00:26:37.370 --> 00:26:42.380 like, you know, all that stuff can generate earned media for you. And it's 341 00:26:42.380 --> 00:26:46.970 important because not not only do you get like top of funnel visibility and 342 00:26:46.980 --> 00:26:52.450 all this stuff, but you get back links from very, very powerful and strong 343 00:26:52.450 --> 00:26:58.100 domains which fuel your own domain authority and then that can fuel your 344 00:26:58.110 --> 00:27:02.050 SEO campaigns that can help you tremendously when it comes to fighting 345 00:27:02.050 --> 00:27:08.340 back against giant legacy competitor domains, fighting back in terms of 346 00:27:08.350 --> 00:27:13.170 being able to rank organically for tough keywords. So this whole thing 347 00:27:13.170 --> 00:27:19.520 kind of is interconnected, you know, reviews, reputation, product pr how can 348 00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:24.180 you extract data out of your product and customers to like create some kind 349 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:29.350 of compelling story and get people to write about it all that plays together 350 00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:34.010 and it feeds back. So I think you think it's going in the future, do you think 351 00:27:34.010 --> 00:27:40.540 it's going more earned less earned? Oh you're gonna need more, you're gonna 352 00:27:40.540 --> 00:27:45.510 need more than ever before because um reputation and brand is only getting 353 00:27:45.510 --> 00:27:51.570 more important products and categories in SAs or like convergent and so 354 00:27:51.570 --> 00:27:55.980 there's going to be less and less opportunity for people to win based on 355 00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:59.670 like some kind of product advantage because there really won't be much 356 00:28:00.040 --> 00:28:05.090 since everything is being copied and convergent. So the more earned media, 357 00:28:05.090 --> 00:28:09.010 you you can get, the better off you're gonna be because you're going to need 358 00:28:09.010 --> 00:28:12.760 that as a form of differentiation and that's just what it comes down to 359 00:28:13.340 --> 00:28:17.820 interesting. So no, uh, there's certainly people that are like all 360 00:28:17.820 --> 00:28:22.240 earned media never paid. Maybe a little bit of owned. I mean you think of Tesla, 361 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.960 it's kind of like all earned media right on one extreme and it's like 362 00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:30.760 Elon's marketing playbook is earned. He's kind of a master at it. And then 363 00:28:30.760 --> 00:28:34.490 you have like chris, I talked to chris walker a few weeks ago and he was like, 364 00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:38.950 no, I do nothing for earned. I just do so good on the own that it earns me. 365 00:28:39.340 --> 00:28:42.980 That gives me free here in the media. I'm like, okay, that's, that's an 366 00:28:42.980 --> 00:28:47.080 interesting play. He's essentially doing zero to get earned other than 367 00:28:47.080 --> 00:28:52.240 just focusing on owned And paid. Yeah, that was the sale cycle strategy. It 368 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:59.220 was zero paid and zero earned. Everything was so good with owned that 369 00:28:59.230 --> 00:29:05.770 created natural, zero effort required earned partners would promote us 370 00:29:05.780 --> 00:29:11.320 naturally. We would host kick as conferences and big sites would promote 371 00:29:11.320 --> 00:29:15.270 us and write about us and give us back links and say how awesome we are, 372 00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:20.770 social would have nonstop chatter and rambling about how Kick ask our events 373 00:29:20.770 --> 00:29:26.710 are both offline and online. The content was so good. It was a community 374 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:32.060 driven content effort where I would hit up top VPs from all these SAAS 375 00:29:32.060 --> 00:29:36.640 companies and have them contribute to the block and then that created this 376 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:41.960 sort of organic flywheel effect that did generate tons of free earned media 377 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:46.320 that we didn't have to pay any money for it all. And that's ultimately why 378 00:29:46.330 --> 00:29:50.570 outreach bought sales hacker. Um, and I'm really proud to have been part of 379 00:29:50.570 --> 00:29:54.020 that movement and I've been on that side of the equation where you're doing 380 00:29:54.030 --> 00:29:59.060 owned so well that everything else falls into place and that was cool to 381 00:29:59.060 --> 00:30:04.180 see. So its transition into like owned as our last part of the triangle here 382 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:08.690 between the three. Uh, which interesting to me about sales hacker is 383 00:30:08.690 --> 00:30:13.830 that sales hacker is essentially an owned media property without a large 384 00:30:13.830 --> 00:30:17.930 product or service behind it. I mean, I know it makes money somehow. I actually 385 00:30:17.930 --> 00:30:20.580 don't know what it's business model is, but I think it's primary concern was 386 00:30:20.580 --> 00:30:25.450 being a publication. Is that right? Yeah. The way it makes money is from 387 00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:30.630 sponsorships, which is traditional publication revenue. What would you 388 00:30:30.630 --> 00:30:35.690 think about? I hardly ever see people do this. But once in a while, if a 389 00:30:35.690 --> 00:30:40.120 brand like a SAS brand or a service brand, like sweet fish media started 390 00:30:40.120 --> 00:30:44.960 its own media property, that's separate from the court brand. Do you think that 391 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:49.360 would be a smart play or is that too much like to try to be a media company 392 00:30:49.360 --> 00:30:55.190 and a product or service is asking too much. Mm that's really, really 393 00:30:55.190 --> 00:30:59.500 interesting on them. Uh, you know, I think if you have the resources to pull 394 00:30:59.500 --> 00:31:05.260 it off, it could potentially work trying to think of an example of that. 395 00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:08.430 I can't think of one of the off the top of my head. I know there are examples 396 00:31:08.430 --> 00:31:14.540 out there of companies that can take you to the recorded future has the 397 00:31:14.540 --> 00:31:19.490 record the media. So that's one that was on chris walker's show and I talked 398 00:31:19.490 --> 00:31:23.460 to him about that too. There's also um maybe when you've run into is a PPC 399 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:27.760 hero which is the it's mainly positioned as this blog but it's 400 00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:31.310 actually become quite large more than a blog in sc Oh it's it's a big 401 00:31:31.310 --> 00:31:35.980 conference now too. But that's run from uh an ad agency I think called the 402 00:31:35.980 --> 00:31:41.150 Hennepin remember but that's also its separate from their core brand and you 403 00:31:41.150 --> 00:31:44.520 don't even know henna pins behind it until later. If you start digging in 404 00:31:44.520 --> 00:31:50.460 then you do. Right, Right. And I didn't uh did somebody acquire morning brew or 405 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:55.050 not yet? Oh somebody did but I don't remember who. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. See so 406 00:31:55.050 --> 00:31:57.210 what you're talking about is like things that are happening all the time. 407 00:31:57.210 --> 00:32:02.400 Like hubs I think hubspot acquired a couple of big community, the hustle. 408 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:06.740 Yes. Yes. They acquired from a daily reader of the hustle. I love that. Yeah, 409 00:32:06.750 --> 00:32:10.710 it's good content. Most people are acquiring it. Even Wall Street Journal 410 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.770 acquired by amazon that makes sense. Very few people starting it internally. 411 00:32:15.140 --> 00:32:19.430 I'm almost wondered like it seems like it would make sense. Are owned media 412 00:32:19.430 --> 00:32:24.210 seems to do so much. How can people don't build it themselves? Usually it's 413 00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:27.550 just a blog within their current site, but it's not positioned differently. 414 00:32:27.550 --> 00:32:31.910 It's just the company blog, even if it is good content in it. So it's 415 00:32:31.910 --> 00:32:35.270 something I'm no, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for to see if that's becoming a 416 00:32:35.270 --> 00:32:40.790 thing or not. Well, they don't do it because it's hard. It's nothing 417 00:32:40.790 --> 00:32:45.290 audience is hard. Yeah, it's very hard and you know, companies have deep 418 00:32:45.290 --> 00:32:50.580 pockets nowadays And um I still to this day don't know how much outreach paid 419 00:32:50.580 --> 00:32:56.990 for sales hacker, but let's just say it was under 10 million. That is a drop in 420 00:32:56.990 --> 00:33:03.420 the bucket for outreach company that's worth billions. Right? So the value 421 00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:09.400 that they get From buying sales hacker for sub 10 million is ridiculous. They 422 00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:15.500 get ridiculous R. O. I. On that. Just absolutely ridiculous. Ri and I think 423 00:33:15.500 --> 00:33:21.920 big companies with deep pockets would rather just buy communities and brands 424 00:33:21.930 --> 00:33:26.920 and rather than building it themselves, um you got the pockets that makes sense, 425 00:33:26.930 --> 00:33:31.550 It's the ones without the deep pockets. The Series B Series C companies that 426 00:33:31.550 --> 00:33:34.760 aren't quite ready for that yet, but are, you know, they got they got stuff 427 00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:38.630 going on, they got resources, but not enough to do to do that yet to just 428 00:33:38.630 --> 00:33:45.600 take outright acquire their there ideal buyer's favorite content source. Right? 429 00:33:45.610 --> 00:33:48.860 I think we all wish we could do that, but not all of us are hubspot walking 430 00:33:48.860 --> 00:33:54.650 around with tens of millions in extra cash. Not yet anyway. Right, so what 431 00:33:54.650 --> 00:33:58.990 else do you think about owned media to kind of wrap it up? Where's it been? Do 432 00:33:58.990 --> 00:34:04.550 you, do you see it becoming more important? I mean, imagine so, but I 433 00:34:04.550 --> 00:34:13.580 have to hear it from you? Uh, yes, in my view is still the most Important of 434 00:34:13.580 --> 00:34:19.290 the three without it, you know, like not not many people can do Elon musk, 435 00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:24.940 you know, all earned media. There's other other examples of that to like, 436 00:34:24.949 --> 00:34:29.230 let's talk about musicians for for for a second. Musicians don't have websites, 437 00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:36.260 they don't have blogs or many of them do not. They rely on offsite properties, 438 00:34:36.739 --> 00:34:42.010 Spotify, apple music, social media. Um, some of them build email us, but not a 439 00:34:42.010 --> 00:34:46.830 lot. But you know, what is the problem with that? The problem is that you 440 00:34:46.830 --> 00:34:52.610 don't control access to your audience, um, you don't have direct access to 441 00:34:52.610 --> 00:34:58.420 their attention. You are, you are allowing social algorithms to control 442 00:34:58.420 --> 00:35:02.930 your business model. And so you're you're seeing musicians now trying to, 443 00:35:02.940 --> 00:35:07.800 you know, do more clever things like get people to opt in through SmS and 444 00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:12.270 there's a product called Super phone that was created by Ryan Leslie, it's 445 00:35:12.270 --> 00:35:18.880 basically mass, you know, marketing SmS, imagine, you know, active campaign, but 446 00:35:18.890 --> 00:35:23.070 just for texting, that's basically what it is. So musicians are facing that 447 00:35:23.070 --> 00:35:28.300 problem because there's not really an owned component and unless you're a 448 00:35:28.300 --> 00:35:32.230 household name in music like Ed Sheeran or something like that, people are not 449 00:35:32.230 --> 00:35:35.850 necessarily checking for you every day on social or they're not going to 450 00:35:35.850 --> 00:35:41.440 Spotify and searching for you directly. And so, um that's an example of how it 451 00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:47.720 can be really challenging environment that is, that is not owned media first, 452 00:35:47.730 --> 00:35:53.230 because it's just all about Brandon and off site and, and so I couldn't see a 453 00:35:53.240 --> 00:35:57.010 normal tech company trying to come up that way. You have to do owned other 454 00:35:57.010 --> 00:36:02.350 like that's it, you can't really succeed otherwise. And so I I was still 455 00:36:02.350 --> 00:36:07.090 saying for the purpose of most industries out there owned is key will 456 00:36:07.090 --> 00:36:11.830 always be key having control over your assets is key having control over your 457 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:16.600 revenue model is key growing your own traffic, having control over your own 458 00:36:16.600 --> 00:36:20.840 content. That's what it's about, man. I can't see that ever losing importance. 459 00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:26.690 Funny as I think about Spotify and apple music as essentially it's owned 460 00:36:26.690 --> 00:36:31.150 because you still have full control over what the content is without paying 461 00:36:31.150 --> 00:36:34.930 for it. Right? So you're not paying for, it's not somebody else writing it, 462 00:36:35.170 --> 00:36:39.920 which has earned media, it's it's owned, but there's some, there's someone in 463 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.510 between you and your audience. It's not quite the same as a text message 464 00:36:43.510 --> 00:36:46.930 relationship where you can support the numbers over to a different aspect, you 465 00:36:46.930 --> 00:36:51.850 still list, right? So there's different levels of owned that is potentially you 466 00:36:51.850 --> 00:36:54.850 kind of want to diversify across them because you probably can't start off 467 00:36:54.850 --> 00:36:59.260 with just you can't start off with just a text message list, right? There's no 468 00:36:59.260 --> 00:37:03.370 one, no one's gonna find you. So you gotta work them down to the a different 469 00:37:03.370 --> 00:37:09.770 level of owned. The reason why I call platforms like Spotify earned and not 470 00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:16.460 owned is because you cannot you do not know who these people are in any way. 471 00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:21.510 You cannot re market to them. There's no pixel you can put on the Spotify or 472 00:37:21.510 --> 00:37:26.160 Apple, like there's no way to access your audience at all. We have no 473 00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:29.870 information about them whatsoever. Everybody who subscribes to your 474 00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:33.980 channel on or your profile on Spotify or Apple music, you have no way of 475 00:37:33.980 --> 00:37:39.210 accessing these people. And so that is why I would I would still categorize 476 00:37:39.210 --> 00:37:40.350 that as as earned. 477 00:37:41.430 --> 00:37:45.450 Is there anything else that I missed about the three that we should add to 478 00:37:45.450 --> 00:37:49.820 the end of the show here between paid owned and earned in B2B marketing. Like 479 00:37:49.820 --> 00:37:54.480 what's the future of these? What should B two B marketers be thinking of, man? 480 00:37:54.490 --> 00:37:58.210 I I mean, I think there's such a good, good convo you know, we had on so many 481 00:37:58.210 --> 00:38:03.420 good points and good angles in terms of closing it out, there's so much 482 00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:09.200 complexity in this because you have to you have to choose your mix of this 483 00:38:09.210 --> 00:38:14.160 based on like how expensive is your product, What is the type of customer 484 00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:18.950 you're going after? How competitive is the market that you're that you're in 485 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:23.630 because sometimes when everyone else is digging, you can zag all right. Uh 486 00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:27.500 maybe chris walker is an example of that. Every other agency in the world 487 00:38:27.510 --> 00:38:33.720 just, you know, does uh you know, S C O P P C tries to get customers through 488 00:38:33.720 --> 00:38:39.650 like other means, but he decided to go all in on organic linked, in which not 489 00:38:39.650 --> 00:38:43.950 many have done and it worked. So maybe maybe that's closing it out. Just try, 490 00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:49.250 try and try and, you know, find pockets where you can win and double down there. 491 00:38:49.720 --> 00:38:54.040 It's usually diversified game, but it's usually for each company, your first 492 00:38:54.040 --> 00:38:57.610 big channel is going to be a big, I don't know, a big dramatic one for you 493 00:38:57.610 --> 00:39:02.170 in some way. Maybe you have an unfair advantage because of some weird reason 494 00:39:02.180 --> 00:39:06.840 paid works really well for you or organic owned works really well for you 495 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.360 or earned. There's something about what you're doing that it earns more 496 00:39:10.370 --> 00:39:14.880 attention more easily. I love that there's so many ways to win. Yet these 497 00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:19.410 things are always changing all the time and it's interesting to watch as a, the 498 00:39:19.410 --> 00:39:23.680 future unfolds as far as how paid earned and owned work separately and 499 00:39:23.680 --> 00:39:27.950 together, I got to know, thank you so much for joining me on GDP growth again. 500 00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:34.530 Where can people connect with you these days? Yeah. Thanks dan. Just search me 501 00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:40.950 katana denied you'll, you'll find me everywhere. So that's it. Fantastic 502 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:46.960 again. Thanks for joining me on GDP growth. Thanks dan, appreciate it for 503 00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.600 the longest time. I was asking people to leave a review of GDP growth in 504 00:39:50.600 --> 00:39:55.290 apple podcasts, but I realized that was kind of stupid because leaving a review 505 00:39:55.290 --> 00:40:00.290 is way harder than just leaving a simple rating. So I'm changing my tune 506 00:40:00.290 --> 00:40:04.170 a bit instead of asking you to leave a review, I'm just gonna ask you to go to 507 00:40:04.180 --> 00:40:08.480 BBB growth in apple podcasts, scroll down until you see the ratings and 508 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:12.810 reviews section and just tap the number of stars you want to give us no review 509 00:40:12.810 --> 00:40:18.040 necessary. Super easy and I promise it will help us out a ton. If you want a 510 00:40:18.040 --> 00:40:21.610 copy of my book, content based networking, just shoot me a text after 511 00:40:21.610 --> 00:40:27.530 you leave the rating and I'll send them your way. Text me at 4074 and I know 33 512 00:40:27.540 --> 00:40:28.250 to 8. 513 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:30.650 Thank you. 514 00:40:32.620 --> 00:40:32.830 Right