Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:08.630 welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet fish media, and 2 00:00:08.630 --> 00:00:13.490 I am continuing the journey into the A B M space. I'm about multiple weeks 3 00:00:13.500 --> 00:00:17.940 into this now, and I am learning a ton. Um, you guys know that I have talked to 4 00:00:17.940 --> 00:00:20.380 thought leaders. I've talked to practitioners. I reviewed a few 5 00:00:20.380 --> 00:00:26.800 Resource is and I'm in the deep end Now I am I am, like, beyond neck deep in a 6 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:30.780 B m thinking about it, dreaming about it. And I figured out a lot of 7 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:35.340 different ways to do it. Now, on on a small budget with the big budget, a few 8 00:00:35.340 --> 00:00:38.510 different implementations of it. I know we're working with it here. It's sweet 9 00:00:38.510 --> 00:00:41.870 fish media and I have some really interesting ideas as far as how podcast 10 00:00:41.870 --> 00:00:45.070 could be tied into it, that will be coming soon. But today, today is gonna 11 00:00:45.070 --> 00:00:50.240 be a little bit of a different episode. I'm joined today by Jonathan Hickman, 12 00:00:50.250 --> 00:00:54.470 who is the VP of growth and community at Connective, and we got connected on 13 00:00:54.470 --> 00:00:58.640 LinkedIn when I was posting about some of these episodes I've been recording 14 00:00:58.650 --> 00:01:04.010 on a B M and we started having like a friendly debate or back and forth on 15 00:01:04.010 --> 00:01:06.780 LinkedIn. That was just so much fun that I was like, Okay, we just gotta 16 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:11.330 bring this onto an episode because most of my episodes have been with people 17 00:01:11.330 --> 00:01:16.240 who have a stake in a B M being a thing the way that it's done. Of course, 18 00:01:16.250 --> 00:01:19.570 authors and thought leader is a lot of these people like it's part of their 19 00:01:19.570 --> 00:01:23.110 career. It's like what they've tied their name to or their whole company is 20 00:01:23.110 --> 00:01:27.120 invested into. So I thought would be fun to have John on this show and talk 21 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:33.130 about a B M just and have him kind of push back against the idea of a B m so 22 00:01:33.140 --> 00:01:36.330 actually haven't even flushed out exactly where this will go. So this is 23 00:01:36.330 --> 00:01:41.410 just gonna be a little bit of a debate. What? John and I on the concept of a bm 24 00:01:41.420 --> 00:01:47.550 where there a bee EMS helpful, how a B M is being implemented and if it's 25 00:01:47.550 --> 00:01:51.930 actually worthwhile to pursue at all. So, John, let's start off with, like, 26 00:01:51.940 --> 00:01:55.610 how do you define account based marketing? What does that mean to you? 27 00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:59.350 Right, so you know I think account based marketing for And thanks for 28 00:01:59.350 --> 00:02:02.850 having me on the show. Uh, any time I get to sit down and market and argue 29 00:02:02.850 --> 00:02:08.759 about marketing, it's a dream, right? So I think a B m for me is about hyper 30 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.910 hyper personalized marketing. And I'm talking about the type of marketing 31 00:02:12.910 --> 00:02:16.390 where you sit down in a room with the team and you're like, All right, we got 32 00:02:16.390 --> 00:02:19.720 these 10 companies right here. And here's the 10 people at these companies 33 00:02:19.720 --> 00:02:22.910 that we wanna talk to. What do we know about them? Who are they? You know, 34 00:02:22.910 --> 00:02:27.360 like and depending on the industry, you go is Granules like wins Phil's 35 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:32.590 birthday, you know, so we could send them a card. And so a b m is ah, hyper 36 00:02:32.590 --> 00:02:37.540 hyper, hyper personalized marketing approach where you're doing true 1 to 1, 37 00:02:37.540 --> 00:02:42.540 marketing at scale and in a revenue positive way. Okay, so hyper 1 to 1. 38 00:02:42.540 --> 00:02:45.760 Marketing. That's funny, because, like most people I talk to you like, 39 00:02:45.760 --> 00:02:51.590 actually differentiate a little bit in that you Congar 01 too many. One too 40 00:02:51.590 --> 00:02:55.720 few and 1 to 1. So one. The one would be one category of how people are 41 00:02:55.720 --> 00:03:00.080 talking about a B m ast faras what I can tell. It's like, Ah, lot of people 42 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:04.570 could do one toe one is an easy way to get started. One too few takes a little 43 00:03:04.570 --> 00:03:08.790 bit more sophistication and then scaling a B M one too many level 44 00:03:08.790 --> 00:03:11.960 usually takes like the advanced automated software from, like six Cents 45 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:15.960 and Demand Demand Base and Terminus and all those guys right where you're 46 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:21.130 targeting 1000 companies that air your closest I C p or whatever. What do you 47 00:03:21.130 --> 00:03:24.570 think about that? I think that that's the problem, right? Is that that's no 48 00:03:24.570 --> 00:03:30.190 longer a B M. And so this is it's any of the old guard and marketing will 49 00:03:30.190 --> 00:03:33.260 tell you that like we've seen, these kinds of things come and go before, 50 00:03:33.260 --> 00:03:37.910 like it's very, very typical of marketers to get really hooked onto a 51 00:03:37.910 --> 00:03:41.620 new buzzword and then just chase that rabbit and just chase it and chase it 52 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:44.630 and chase it and get shiny. Object syndrome is what you know. We in our 53 00:03:44.630 --> 00:03:49.180 circle call it, and this is what we've seen with a B M is like a B M was built 54 00:03:49.180 --> 00:03:56.920 to be unanswered, too long term sales cycles. It was an answer to handling Ah, 55 00:03:56.920 --> 00:04:01.490 very complex sales approach where you really have to build a really deep 56 00:04:01.490 --> 00:04:06.260 relationship. And the problem is, is, in my opinion, is that there's a lot of 57 00:04:06.260 --> 00:04:09.840 guys out there that are selling a B M, that air selling a BM software and 58 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:15.230 things like that. And so to them, every single problem looks like an A B M 59 00:04:15.230 --> 00:04:18.240 problem. And of course they're going to sell it that way. That's there. That's 60 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:21.230 what they need to do. This is the problem with like influencers and, and 61 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:25.310 listening to these experts that sell these products is a B M doesn't work 62 00:04:25.310 --> 00:04:27.980 for everybody. It doesn't work for every industry, and it just doesn't 63 00:04:27.980 --> 00:04:32.410 make sense. I was actually I think we were on your your feed the other day 64 00:04:32.410 --> 00:04:36.250 when I was arguing with some of the There is not a single marketing tactic 65 00:04:36.260 --> 00:04:40.350 out there that works for every single business. I don't care what it is. It's 66 00:04:40.350 --> 00:04:44.500 not not a phone number, not a website non email address. I can show you a 67 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:47.340 business where you don't need one of those right, and that's what a B M's 68 00:04:47.340 --> 00:04:51.760 come down to, I think, is that it's just the hot topic item that people 69 00:04:51.760 --> 00:04:55.420 want to talk about and they wanna make everything be a B M when really it's 70 00:04:55.420 --> 00:04:59.260 just good, personalized marketing. It makes a lot of sense. Honestly, there's 71 00:04:59.260 --> 00:05:02.340 some There's a bunch of things that you're saying that just ring true with 72 00:05:02.340 --> 00:05:06.570 me. I remember I did an episode way back this summer with a guy named 73 00:05:06.580 --> 00:05:11.830 Edward. Uh, never Mont, and he wrote a book called Marketing Bs. Essentially, 74 00:05:11.830 --> 00:05:15.290 he's just like my goodness. He's got, like, his Wharton MBA. He's like, Very 75 00:05:15.290 --> 00:05:19.000 sophisticated. He's just like there's just so many marketing tactics on the 76 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.740 street, mainly because of category design, right? All marketers know if 77 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:25.700 you want to be number one and you're freaking B two b SAS space, you need to 78 00:05:25.700 --> 00:05:29.880 create known a category exactly right. So that's because that's such a big 79 00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:34.350 playbook. We have tens of thousands of different categories, all vying for 80 00:05:34.350 --> 00:05:38.190 device, all sending out doing research and white papers and thought leadership 81 00:05:38.190 --> 00:05:41.890 about why their way is the best way right, and that's what they're trying 82 00:05:41.890 --> 00:05:45.500 to do it to scale and There's a lot of math and money behind all of these 83 00:05:45.500 --> 00:05:50.240 things and a ton of VC dollars investing in these ideas, which has 84 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:56.820 created a whole ecosystem of false or partly, like only half true information, 85 00:05:56.820 --> 00:05:59.500 right, which makes it really hard as their new market or trying to figure 86 00:05:59.500 --> 00:06:04.530 out what the heck works out there. Okay, And then we have new marketers. I was 87 00:06:04.530 --> 00:06:07.400 gonna say just the problems. New marketers just need to understand that 88 00:06:07.400 --> 00:06:11.180 we're all making this up as we go. I've talked Thio, world renowned speakers 89 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:15.260 that have, you know, so much smarter than me that go travel to Google in 90 00:06:15.260 --> 00:06:18.290 different places to speak. And I tell you, not a single one of them will ever 91 00:06:18.290 --> 00:06:21.200 claim to have it figured out. We're all just the blind leading the blind. In 92 00:06:21.200 --> 00:06:25.450 this game, we published case studies to pump ourselves up when really, it's 93 00:06:25.450 --> 00:06:30.120 kind of like like we've always pull our best. Our best case scenarios forward, 94 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:34.770 right? Andan sand Graham. I always thought I love San Graham. I'm I've 95 00:06:34.770 --> 00:06:37.630 talked with him many times. I have an interview coming up with Sand Graham um 96 00:06:37.630 --> 00:06:43.480 of CEO of Terminus. He wrote the book B two b is a B m. No a B m is b two b. I 97 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.620 did a review on it not long ago. She always thought was kind of funny. And 98 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:51.650 I'm like, uh, I think you're right. Like a B M isn't for everybody, but it 99 00:06:51.650 --> 00:06:56.050 sure fits really well for most B to B companies. I would say if your contract 100 00:06:56.050 --> 00:07:00.380 sizes over a certain amount, right? Really? Exactly Right. So, like, take, 101 00:07:00.380 --> 00:07:04.500 for example, the fulfillment industry, right? I'm gonna talk about because 102 00:07:04.500 --> 00:07:09.010 it's close to home for me. So they have hugely long sales cycle when you're 103 00:07:09.010 --> 00:07:13.640 trying to convince somebody to move all of their retail inventory from one 104 00:07:13.640 --> 00:07:17.070 warehouse to another warehouse, which all of their systems, all of those back 105 00:07:17.070 --> 00:07:22.240 in hookups, right, like that is a new, insanely long sales cycle with a huge 106 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:27.140 ticket at the end. Right? In that situation, it makes sense toe like deep 107 00:07:27.140 --> 00:07:31.050 dive into that company, deep dive into those individuals. The payoff is worth 108 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:36.770 it. But if your sale cycle, I would say, is less than a year, I would really 109 00:07:36.780 --> 00:07:41.630 question whether I would ever look at a B m a bm would be the seventh or eighth 110 00:07:41.630 --> 00:07:46.020 priority on my list after I've mastered every single other thing that's gonna 111 00:07:46.020 --> 00:07:49.470 butter my bread first. I think that's the issue with a B. M. That's the issue 112 00:07:49.470 --> 00:07:53.520 with a lot of these marketing tactics that we could go through is who are 113 00:07:53.520 --> 00:07:57.060 they a fit for And who are they not a fit for? I get it, man. I'm even I'm 114 00:07:57.060 --> 00:08:01.910 looking at, you know, Buffer, the popular super popular like Web app for 115 00:08:01.910 --> 00:08:06.490 posting to social media like their top price point is $100 a month. I'm like a 116 00:08:06.490 --> 00:08:09.840 B M is never gonna pan out for them. They probably have some enterprise 117 00:08:09.840 --> 00:08:13.210 accounts, but you're like, even then like, Okay, so you charge $200 a month. 118 00:08:13.210 --> 00:08:16.910 You're like like even Disney is not gonna wanna pay more than a few $100 a 119 00:08:16.910 --> 00:08:19.840 month for your tool, even if with the Enterprise feature is baked into it, it 120 00:08:19.840 --> 00:08:24.090 just doesn't make sense to do a B M. If you're buffer, right? Exactly. So in 121 00:08:24.090 --> 00:08:27.990 that situation instead, you just you always work is close to 1 to 1 is is 122 00:08:27.990 --> 00:08:32.659 reverently proven, right. If you can get all the way to 1 to 1, and it's 123 00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:35.559 still be profitable. Awesome. Heck, yeah. Good for you, Buffer. I don't 124 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.760 think it's gonna happen. So I pick your segments, you know, get down as needy, 125 00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:43.740 gritty as you can to try to personalize or at least make the marketing a little 126 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:48.100 bit mawr impactful to that audience, but only to a point where it makes 127 00:08:48.100 --> 00:08:51.970 sense. Eventually, you're just wasting money and losing dollars and like 128 00:08:51.980 --> 00:08:56.290 marketings, where good budgets goes to die. So you gotta be careful with what 129 00:08:56.290 --> 00:09:01.260 you dio for. Sure. And that's why the organic S e O Social has played out 130 00:09:01.260 --> 00:09:04.410 well for them even beyond. I've never I don't think I've ever seen them post 131 00:09:04.410 --> 00:09:07.400 about Facebook ads. I'm sure they posted about it, but I don't think 132 00:09:07.400 --> 00:09:10.780 that's their game either, because even a good PPC strategy isn't gonna work 133 00:09:10.780 --> 00:09:14.670 for them. Their cost to acquire just needs to be so low toe work for them. 134 00:09:14.670 --> 00:09:19.900 Financial. Oh, man. That's my other favorite beating horse is PPC. That 135 00:09:19.900 --> 00:09:23.250 will be another one for another day that I love to beat up on paper. Click. 136 00:09:23.260 --> 00:09:30.650 What? Oh, e Oh, Okay. But Let's stay on a B m different. It will be a different 137 00:09:30.650 --> 00:09:35.330 show for a different day when we do a series of PBC. So what contract size 138 00:09:35.330 --> 00:09:39.530 would you say is worthwhile for an A B M play? I mean, that's really hard 139 00:09:39.530 --> 00:09:43.450 question to put, like a definitive answer on right. It's really it's 140 00:09:43.450 --> 00:09:46.790 really dependent. And it's dependent on just like how high of a cost of 141 00:09:46.790 --> 00:09:50.440 acquisition can you tolerate? So I think for a A B M program to be done 142 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.100 exactly right, you're gonna have to require at least one if not two full 143 00:09:54.100 --> 00:09:57.160 time hires to pull it off, probably with a sales background. So it's either 144 00:09:57.160 --> 00:10:00.960 a sales guy that leans marketing or a marketing guy that leans sales, or a 145 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.880 team of them working together, right? One of them handling the digital 146 00:10:04.880 --> 00:10:08.730 outreach, the digital research portion of it, those sides, the other one 147 00:10:08.730 --> 00:10:12.100 managing the actual, like calling outreach relationship building side. 148 00:10:12.110 --> 00:10:15.530 And I think that you work together in a team or in a one pair group. So you're 149 00:10:15.530 --> 00:10:21.090 talking about a full salary worth for however many months, 10, 12 months to 150 00:10:21.090 --> 00:10:24.930 make it pay off in the end. So it's really like Is that strategy going to 151 00:10:24.930 --> 00:10:28.920 give you enough revenue to pay for an entire person? In my opinion, kind of 152 00:10:28.920 --> 00:10:31.810 makes sense. I mean, you have to consider all the soft costs involved in 153 00:10:31.810 --> 00:10:37.680 a B M beyond the hard cost, right? But you know, most B to B companies aren't 154 00:10:37.690 --> 00:10:41.130 like they're already doing a B M. To some degree, it's just that the 155 00:10:41.130 --> 00:10:45.050 marketing department's not involved, right marketings, mass advertising, 156 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:49.110 usually in a BP company. And then sales is actually doing a B M because they 157 00:10:49.110 --> 00:10:52.590 have their Kia countless. And it's just that marketing is not really helping 158 00:10:52.590 --> 00:10:55.520 with those key accounts, and I think that's why they even that's why I guess 159 00:10:55.520 --> 00:10:59.300 it's even called account based marketing and not marketing and sales. 160 00:10:59.300 --> 00:11:02.790 Because sales has already been on this page for a long time, mark that they're 161 00:11:02.790 --> 00:11:05.340 trying to wake up the fact that, like hey, marketers in the B two B space 162 00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:08.790 like you should be a little bit more aligned with sales with targeting your 163 00:11:08.800 --> 00:11:11.840 marketing efforts here, right when it comes down to like a good user 164 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:16.480 experience to, you know, you want your your sales outreach should not conflict 165 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:20.360 with what marketing saying, like, How many times have we have marketers built 166 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.330 redundancies into our programs to shut off marketing communication as soon as 167 00:11:24.330 --> 00:11:28.100 sales gets involved so that those lines don't cross right? And A B M is like a 168 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:33.870 synergy between the two. But that's exactly the point is so I'm and I still 169 00:11:33.880 --> 00:11:38.160 we joke in our circle that, like I want to see someone that's actually done a B 170 00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:41.570 M and done it right like I feel like I've gotten close. I've had a BM 171 00:11:41.580 --> 00:11:46.980 inspired strategies, right? But I have never had a pure A B M play that I've 172 00:11:46.980 --> 00:11:50.640 built out. I've always wanted to, but I can't find anyone gutsy enough to sink 173 00:11:50.640 --> 00:11:55.750 the money into it. But so I think that I just want to see it done. I want to 174 00:11:55.750 --> 00:11:59.400 see it done right, and most of the time that what people are calling A B M is 175 00:11:59.400 --> 00:12:04.370 just in a BM inspired campaign. Its's personalized marketing. It's working 176 00:12:04.370 --> 00:12:08.620 closer to it, but it's not actually hitting the point. So to you, it's not 177 00:12:08.620 --> 00:12:12.750 a B M unless it's 1 to 1 right. I think that that is what I mean. It's account, 178 00:12:12.760 --> 00:12:16.720 maybe not 1 to 1, but you're definitely creating your marketing per account. 179 00:12:16.730 --> 00:12:19.940 It's kind of in the name right. It's account based marketing. So, like your 180 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:24.010 market the whole point. We were all excited about a B M when it came out 181 00:12:24.010 --> 00:12:27.180 like really amped, like when people first started talking about it as a 182 00:12:27.180 --> 00:12:29.610 strategy and I was like Hell, yeah, this would be great, like, let's 183 00:12:29.620 --> 00:12:35.060 absolutely go and and create marketing for just that client And how How can we 184 00:12:35.070 --> 00:12:38.540 get to their How can we automated? But then you start. It's like a lot of 185 00:12:38.540 --> 00:12:41.840 these things. You start unraveling the problem and you're like, Wow, this is 186 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:46.510 Ah, it's more specialized tool, A really fantastic specialized tool that 187 00:12:46.510 --> 00:12:50.210 I probably need to go and get, like six months of training and to be able to 188 00:12:50.210 --> 00:12:55.010 use before I just jump on it. But then everybody is talking about it like if 189 00:12:55.010 --> 00:12:58.340 you have a business, you need to be doing a B M, and I just think it's 190 00:12:58.340 --> 00:13:02.340 wrong. Oh, it's making me think. Okay, so I think there's probably a number of 191 00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:07.010 people that are using a B m with the big, expensive tools and doing it well. 192 00:13:07.010 --> 00:13:10.180 There's probably more people that are have forked over the money for the 193 00:13:10.180 --> 00:13:12.530 tools and still haven't quite implemented. They haven't taken the 194 00:13:12.540 --> 00:13:15.970 Ferrari out of the garage. I've heard some people say right, it doesn't 195 00:13:15.980 --> 00:13:19.060 necessarily mean that it doesn't work. It works. It's just hard, I mean, but 196 00:13:19.060 --> 00:13:22.880 so is so. Is hub spots inbound marketing model like I've implemented a 197 00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:25.390 number of times. And then I have people coming to me being like, Well, how did 198 00:13:25.390 --> 00:13:28.190 you actually like, Generate a lot of revenue with it? Because if you are 199 00:13:28.190 --> 00:13:31.360 honest, like even the whole content marketing thing, people are dropping 200 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.690 money on the content and the marketing automation software, and it's still 201 00:13:35.690 --> 00:13:41.180 only making up 10 20% of their inbound revenue. Um, that they're generating 202 00:13:41.180 --> 00:13:44.690 from because it's hard to figure out how to scale good content at least 203 00:13:44.690 --> 00:13:47.140 enough to where it's making up a significant part of your pipeline, 204 00:13:47.140 --> 00:13:50.970 right? I agree, I agree, but I don't think that's the I think that the issue 205 00:13:50.970 --> 00:13:54.840 people have is they're becoming too focused on tactics. They're coming too 206 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:59.090 focused on what they need to have in their tool belt rather than just good 207 00:13:59.090 --> 00:14:01.760 marketing. Like I say this to people all the time, like just do good 208 00:14:01.760 --> 00:14:05.730 marketing, deliver the right message to the right audience at the right time. 209 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:09.410 That's all it ISS. And if that means you Onley post to a certain group of 210 00:14:09.410 --> 00:14:13.590 people on Facebook and that's what butters all your bread, then don't 211 00:14:13.590 --> 00:14:17.990 don't build out email campaigns. Don't do PPC if you don't need to, don't do 212 00:14:17.990 --> 00:14:22.880 it. And instead, we I think that's why companies have issues with content. 213 00:14:22.880 --> 00:14:26.240 Marketing is because they're trying to force a thing that's not a thing for 214 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:30.160 them, either. It's not their brand, it's not their personality, and they 215 00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:34.440 just feel they need to, or they haven't found the content that really speaks to 216 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.760 their audience or speaks to them. That's easy for them to create. And 217 00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:40.950 then they get frustrated, and then they waste money, and then they fire that 218 00:14:40.950 --> 00:14:44.460 marketer, and then the next marketer comes in and he says, Hey, content 219 00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:47.790 marketing And then he's got to fight that battle again. We need to go back 220 00:14:47.790 --> 00:14:51.090 to our roots of Just do good marketing. Pick your tactics out like, be 221 00:14:51.090 --> 00:14:54.860 selective on what you dio. I've got a couple of old with my wife, laughs me 222 00:14:54.860 --> 00:14:59.140 and calls him John ISMs. You know where it's, uh, crawl, walk, run everything. 223 00:14:59.150 --> 00:15:03.220 90 10 rule. You know, all of these buzzword rules have been famous for 20 224 00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:07.730 years. Like they still work. Stick to him. I agree. I mean, definitely people 225 00:15:07.730 --> 00:15:10.670 have shiny object syndrome all the time. I literally just told someone on 226 00:15:10.670 --> 00:15:14.740 Lincoln this morning when I woke up, I saw the post. He's like, Oh, I'm gonna 227 00:15:14.740 --> 00:15:18.950 go and do all these things. I'm like, No, you don't freaking pick to just 228 00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:22.470 stick to him. You already doing LinkedIn clearly add podcasting to it 229 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:25.720 or something, and that's it. Like, don't do anything else. Ignore the 230 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:28.220 other channels. Thank you. It's the same thing for companies were even 231 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:31.360 doing it here. A sweet fish. I'm like we wanted to launch a newsletter and 232 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:34.320 we've been kind of half half doing a newsletter, and I'm like, trying to 233 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:38.180 generate traffic. I'm like, Why were freaking podcasting company? And this 234 00:15:38.180 --> 00:15:40.540 is probably the first anybody on this show because I've talked about the 235 00:15:40.540 --> 00:15:44.810 newsletter multiple times so When was the last time you ever bought anything 236 00:15:44.810 --> 00:15:49.930 off of a newsletter? Dan? I'm not their fight. Your fight. I could fight your 237 00:15:49.930 --> 00:15:53.650 fight for you, Dan. Like newsletters or garbage. You really got to convince me 238 00:15:53.650 --> 00:15:57.320 why we need to do one. Everyone does a newsletter. You got to stand out. You 239 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:03.020 cannot. The day of newsletters was five years ago, and it died. Now you could 240 00:16:03.020 --> 00:16:06.870 still do a newsletter and win. But it better be one of your two or three if 241 00:16:06.870 --> 00:16:09.640 you're big enough, right? Like you really just you can win with the 242 00:16:09.640 --> 00:16:14.420 newsletter. It's just it takes so much effort to really win an act. Truly 243 00:16:14.430 --> 00:16:19.000 activate one channel that you really need to go all in on one or two. I 244 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.740 actually think it too. There's usually a two combo punch. One more for 245 00:16:22.740 --> 00:16:25.950 discovery, More for your long form. Usually short, firm, long form. You can 246 00:16:25.950 --> 00:16:29.240 usually make it work. I love that. No. And I've built off of that like 247 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:33.270 featured resource than you know, a generalized content back and forth, you 248 00:16:33.270 --> 00:16:38.330 know, strategy before I've seen it. But if I get one more email, that is just a 249 00:16:38.330 --> 00:16:42.120 list of 10 blog's that I saw on LinkedIn earlier that week. I'm gonna 250 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:47.970 lose my mind. You know, I've got, uh let's see what I'm at 210,000 unready 251 00:16:47.970 --> 00:16:51.940 emails at this point in every newsletter just adds to it. I had that 252 00:16:51.940 --> 00:16:56.680 argument actually, at an organization in the past where we just I'm not anti 253 00:16:56.680 --> 00:17:01.140 newsletter. I just need to be convinced again that the newsletter is the best 254 00:17:01.140 --> 00:17:04.940 solution for the problem that we have ahead of us. And not that we're just 255 00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:09.270 doing a newsletter because it's what we've always done. So bring it back to 256 00:17:09.270 --> 00:17:13.450 a B M. Let me make a pitch to you and see if you think that this is like a B 257 00:17:13.450 --> 00:17:18.089 m done. Well, a B M. That's actually will make sense For most people, this 258 00:17:18.089 --> 00:17:21.589 is the way we do it. I don't have, like, fancy a bm software have hub spot, 259 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:27.400 which has some like a B M features in it, right? Very minimal. So this is 260 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.500 this is my game plan. At least this is the game plan that I'm building so far. 261 00:17:30.510 --> 00:17:35.850 Just based on my own deep dive here into a B M is I'm gonna pull a list on. 262 00:17:35.850 --> 00:17:38.970 I'm probably pull it from crunch base because crunch based kind of has just 263 00:17:38.970 --> 00:17:42.150 the right details that I need. I can narrow it down to about 102 100 264 00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:47.370 companies. Mhm. And then I'm a big fan of the 1 to 1, and I'm probably I'm 265 00:17:47.370 --> 00:17:50.880 doing my best to make the best accounts. I'm not gonna have all the intent 266 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.100 driven stuff like that. It just becomes really too expensive to figure out 267 00:17:54.100 --> 00:17:57.870 which ones have intent. I wish I knew which ones had intent. I just don't. So 268 00:17:57.870 --> 00:18:02.460 what we do here at Sweet Fish and what we usually help our customers Dio is 269 00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:06.650 create the list and then start inviting all the people that specifically for us 270 00:18:06.650 --> 00:18:11.670 the VPs of marketing kind of like yourself onto the show as guests. Right? 271 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:15.130 And that's why we even named our our show. Here be to be growth and not be 272 00:18:15.130 --> 00:18:18.840 to be podcasting. We name it, but about their expertise, not our expertise. 273 00:18:18.850 --> 00:18:22.190 Because if we started about B two b podcasting who listens to that people 274 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:26.660 who already have a podcast which is not our target buyer, right we need without 275 00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:30.510 a podcast. We have them onto the show. We talk to him about essentially, 276 00:18:30.510 --> 00:18:33.180 however they're winning. However, they're like killing it out there with 277 00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:36.130 their job. It might be about newsletters. It might be about PPC 278 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:40.040 might be about category creation, but we talk about essentially a good case 279 00:18:40.040 --> 00:18:44.070 study of what they're doing to grow their company. In the meantime, I 280 00:18:44.070 --> 00:18:46.940 usually ask a few questions getting a feel for whether they're in the market 281 00:18:46.940 --> 00:18:51.020 for a podcast, and I either follow up with them if they are or continue 282 00:18:51.020 --> 00:18:54.930 building the relationship afterwards. Because relationships let's transcend 283 00:18:54.930 --> 00:18:59.050 marketing relationships can pan out to so many wonderful things. But of course, 284 00:18:59.060 --> 00:19:03.330 those relationships can also quickly pan out to be in customers, right? 285 00:19:03.330 --> 00:19:06.750 That's our 1 to 1. It's a very much a bm approach because we're coming up 286 00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:11.620 with key companies we want to do business with right. Like we conserve, 287 00:19:11.630 --> 00:19:16.550 we have them onto the show, provide value by highlighting them as the 288 00:19:16.550 --> 00:19:20.450 guests, their expertise, and it's essentially a great way for me to spend 289 00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:24.100 an hour with somebody getting to know them. Building relationship building 290 00:19:24.100 --> 00:19:28.220 trust s so that when I asked. They like, Hey, you should take a look at this. 291 00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:31.390 This might be helpful to you They're usually pretty likely to look at, 292 00:19:31.390 --> 00:19:34.020 especially if I've done some work kind of getting an idea. If they're in the 293 00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:40.030 market for it later, right? And it it creates good content. We get 160 K 294 00:19:40.030 --> 00:19:44.060 downloads a month on this show, which is a lot because we're Daily Show and 295 00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:48.110 it's good content. A lot of people mentioned the episodes that we do just 296 00:19:48.110 --> 00:19:52.000 because it's people like to hear what their peers air up to you. So we posted 297 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.890 threat and stuff. So how do you feel about that? Is an A B M play? So 298 00:19:55.900 --> 00:19:59.340 earlier when I said that I had done some things in the past were a B M 299 00:19:59.340 --> 00:20:03.950 inspired. It's great minds, think alike. We actually did that exact same kind of 300 00:20:03.950 --> 00:20:08.670 approach at Connective starting back in like March and tested it out, and it 301 00:20:08.670 --> 00:20:12.260 actually works really, really well. For all the reasons that you said, it gets 302 00:20:12.260 --> 00:20:16.230 your customers your potential audience in. There's this thing that happens in 303 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:21.140 sales and Justin people in general that if you give someone something for free, 304 00:20:21.140 --> 00:20:24.670 and they're grateful for it. Subconsciously, they owe you 305 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:28.400 subconsciously. It's my wife and I always joke about, like putting coins 306 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:31.260 in each other's bank, right? And I'm like, You know, I've been banking up 307 00:20:31.260 --> 00:20:33.720 coins I've been I've been doing all the things around the house, all the stuff, 308 00:20:33.730 --> 00:20:37.240 and subconsciously, it creates an imbalance between us, where now she 309 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.730 feels like she owes me. It's the same thing in sales, right? And so by 310 00:20:40.730 --> 00:20:44.430 bringing your customers in, having them on the show, giving them a chance to 311 00:20:44.430 --> 00:20:48.170 make it all about them and they get to talk, it automatically puts you in the 312 00:20:48.170 --> 00:20:52.610 upper foot or in the upper position. Going into the next conversation right 313 00:20:52.620 --> 00:20:56.230 to it gives you an easy way to reach out to him, which is beautiful with no 314 00:20:56.230 --> 00:21:00.060 sales pressure because it's like we're giving it away. It's beautiful. Three. 315 00:21:00.070 --> 00:21:03.790 It's a never ending source of content for you, which is the hardest problem 316 00:21:03.790 --> 00:21:07.370 in content. Marketing is finding your well that you can consistently go back 317 00:21:07.370 --> 00:21:10.870 to, so that's beautiful. I think it's fantastic. I think it's one of the 318 00:21:10.870 --> 00:21:15.240 closest things I've seen to a B M and I think it's beautiful. And when it works, 319 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:20.120 it works right. I really love the approach we could argue in the pure 320 00:21:20.120 --> 00:21:24.860 form of Is it true a B M? But I think it's close enough that I would call it. 321 00:21:24.870 --> 00:21:29.070 I think it's close enough that and wonder what right? I'll even admit I'll 322 00:21:29.070 --> 00:21:33.750 even say in that situation like that. That's a true A B M play and where it 323 00:21:33.750 --> 00:21:37.180 actually makes sense. I also think it's really unique, though, and definitely 324 00:21:37.180 --> 00:21:43.530 not what's been sold for the last five years as what A. B. M is a za marketer. 325 00:21:43.530 --> 00:21:47.490 You're probably brainstorming outside the box ideas to engage your prospects 326 00:21:47.490 --> 00:21:50.920 and customers working remotely. And you've probably thought about sending 327 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:54.750 them direct mail to break through the zoom fatigue. But how do you ship 328 00:21:54.750 --> 00:21:58.700 personalized gifts to remote decision makers when you have no idea where 329 00:21:58.700 --> 00:22:02.900 they're sitting At B two B growth, we use the Crafton platform to send hyper 330 00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:07.090 personalized gifts toe anyone working from anywhere. Crafton makes it easy 331 00:22:07.090 --> 00:22:10.720 for your prospects and customers to pick and personalized their own gift in 332 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:15.040 real time and offers highly secure data capture. So decision makers feel 333 00:22:15.040 --> 00:22:18.860 comfortable submitting their home addresses for shipping purposes. To get 334 00:22:18.860 --> 00:22:24.030 your own personalized craft and gift, go to craft, um dot io slash growth to 335 00:22:24.030 --> 00:22:27.280 schedule a demo and receive a complimentary, personalized gift from 336 00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:31.650 craft. Um, to claim your personalized gift, go to craft, um dot io slash 337 00:22:31.650 --> 00:22:36.900 growth. So while I think it's a great A B M approach, I mean, it's our approach. 338 00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:40.070 So, like, of course, I'm a little biased towards it, and I think it works. 339 00:22:40.070 --> 00:22:43.920 Course. I think it's beautiful. It's still there's still other ways to do it. 340 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:48.210 You can still do email outrage. There's ways where you can systematically go 341 00:22:48.210 --> 00:22:51.700 after them. I think leading what the podcast or an interview based show, 342 00:22:51.700 --> 00:22:54.810 whether it's YouTube or a blogger, whatever is going toe work. But there's 343 00:22:54.820 --> 00:22:59.130 other ways to lead with value. I think it's just harder and a little bit more 344 00:22:59.140 --> 00:23:03.430 sales e feeling when you're doing email outreach or leading with gifts right or 345 00:23:03.430 --> 00:23:07.100 different things like that, then it just people kind of know. I mean, it's 346 00:23:07.100 --> 00:23:10.980 not that they don't know what our podcast sometimes, but it's still it's 347 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:14.440 still better than I think. Marketing was before because I'm coming from the 348 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:19.020 B two c world. And I remember everything changed when I understood 349 00:23:19.020 --> 00:23:22.970 how b two B was gonna play or how how much more information I had and b two b 350 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:26.270 because in B two c, you pretty much just have to market to your persona. 351 00:23:26.270 --> 00:23:30.200 You know, you tryto segment your information down as far as you can and 352 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.020 get in front of the right crowd. But you literally have no idea which ones 353 00:23:33.020 --> 00:23:36.450 are buyers and which ones aren't right. So you just have to advertise to the 354 00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:40.870 segment of the masses and hope for the best. It's dark, you just advertising 355 00:23:40.870 --> 00:23:45.530 blind. Ah, little less blind. If you segment well. I love the way literally 356 00:23:45.530 --> 00:23:49.460 know the name of the person who gets to make the decision easily. You could 357 00:23:49.460 --> 00:23:53.910 just go to Lincoln for free, look up the company, go to the page, look at VP 358 00:23:53.910 --> 00:23:57.560 of marketing or just marketing and find everybody who works in marketing at 359 00:23:57.560 --> 00:24:02.530 that company or whatever it is. Whoever it is, you sell Thio. It changes the 360 00:24:02.530 --> 00:24:06.660 game on B two b, which is why I think a B M is the thing why I think it could 361 00:24:06.660 --> 00:24:10.710 be like you don't want to try to do too much, but I think it should be Ah, 362 00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:16.270 primary strategy of everybody who who has high contract value, whether it's 363 00:24:16.270 --> 00:24:19.560 in the tens of thousands. If you're in the hundreds of thousands for sure, 364 00:24:19.570 --> 00:24:24.300 then I think a B M is a worthwhile play or an approach, even a way of a type of 365 00:24:24.300 --> 00:24:26.920 thinking, because you're not advertising the masses. Your 366 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:32.500 advertising, too, of select few or marketing to whatever marketing means 367 00:24:32.510 --> 00:24:38.070 area promotion means right? Right? I'm not anti a B m. I think I'm anti false 368 00:24:38.070 --> 00:24:42.900 A B m hype, right? So I think that, like like in your situation, it is a 369 00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:46.120 beautiful example in which it can work. And I've always maintained that in 370 00:24:46.120 --> 00:24:50.750 certain situations it is the most elegant solution, right? But it's just 371 00:24:50.750 --> 00:24:54.040 not for everybody. I think as long as in marketing, we continually try to get 372 00:24:54.040 --> 00:24:57.500 closer and closer to 1 to 1 that's gonna push you in the right direction 373 00:24:57.500 --> 00:25:01.490 and so pick whatever path it is that gets you to there and that's the course. 374 00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:06.390 That's your true north fantastic. So I think We're mostly on the same page 375 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:09.770 there. Check it out. We landed in the middle. I don't I understand the hype 376 00:25:09.780 --> 00:25:13.550 because it's hard. It's hard to get people to adopt a new way of thinking 377 00:25:13.550 --> 00:25:18.090 in a new approach, so they have to hype it up right? So I get it. I get why the 378 00:25:18.090 --> 00:25:21.550 market's saturated with all these new categories, because that's we kind of 379 00:25:21.550 --> 00:25:25.420 know category design work. So it's hard to win when somebody is number one in 380 00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:29.250 the category design or in a number one in the category. So there's a 381 00:25:29.250 --> 00:25:32.970 proliferation proliferation. I'm butchering that word. There's a lot. I 382 00:25:32.970 --> 00:25:40.280 like it. I'm just so glad it was you and not me this time. Yeah, you know, 383 00:25:40.290 --> 00:25:45.200 But hold your breath like there's a whole new hop hip marketing strategy. 384 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:49.000 It'll be here. I don't know, like, six months or whatever, and we'll all be 385 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.600 obsessed with it, too. And then I same advice will hold out right? Pick the 386 00:25:52.600 --> 00:25:55.730 right channel. That's right for you. There you go. So the ones who hold out 387 00:25:55.730 --> 00:25:59.200 just stay focused on their one or two. Maybe three channels are the ones who 388 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:04.420 are gonna win If only we could just get distracted. Gosh, right. Yeah. Master 389 00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:07.920 your one channel like it's Ah, I've been wanting to do a talk for, like, 390 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.690 young marketers a lot. Like, definitely master your one channel that you're 391 00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:15.550 really, really good at and just get really stupid good at that one channel 392 00:26:15.550 --> 00:26:18.760 Dibble level and everything else you know, just a little here and there. And 393 00:26:18.760 --> 00:26:21.980 then once you got really good in that one, then pick your next one to move. 394 00:26:21.990 --> 00:26:24.740 And as long as you're just moving closer to 1 to 1, you're gonna win. I 395 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:29.330 mean, this games, there's enough people out there doing bad marketing that as 396 00:26:29.330 --> 00:26:32.870 long as you do good marketing, this game is pretty easy to win. Yeah, as 397 00:26:32.870 --> 00:26:37.390 long as you could stay focused. Just curious, John, what are your one or two 398 00:26:37.390 --> 00:26:42.640 channels that you go all in on? So for me, it's it's always gonna be a social 399 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:46.900 component, and right now it's still heavily email like those air going to 400 00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:50.210 be my defaults that I'm gonna go to almost always because email's gonna 401 00:26:50.210 --> 00:26:54.410 play a role, whether it's in retention, whether it's an acquisition in some way, 402 00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:57.420 email's gonna play a role and then socials like your best place to build 403 00:26:57.420 --> 00:27:01.400 your organic reach. You have a particular platform, social platform. 404 00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:04.520 Are you doing all the social platform? Everything. Anything and everything. 405 00:27:04.530 --> 00:27:07.820 You pick a business product, and I could tell you which networks gonna 406 00:27:07.820 --> 00:27:11.030 work best. Yeah, but which one are you using? Like what? What are using for 407 00:27:11.030 --> 00:27:16.210 connective? So connective was is heavily on linked in heavily on, like 408 00:27:16.210 --> 00:27:20.640 Twitter, but really linked in being the primary focus. And then I think they're 409 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:25.020 gonna move towards clubhouse. I'm a big fan of clubhouse, man. I'm all about it. 410 00:27:25.020 --> 00:27:28.710 We've been we've been having from a clubhouse. The reach is absolutely 411 00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:33.210 astounding. The engagement is pretty incredible. It's the Wild West. You 412 00:27:33.210 --> 00:27:38.080 don't get on opportunity in the wild west of social media. APS very often 413 00:27:38.080 --> 00:27:42.470 like this is a rare time. So, like, every marketer needs to just deep dive 414 00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:45.480 into clubhouse right now. I don't know. I feel like that opportunity comes 415 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:51.420 every other year. Two years ago was ticktock So e, I guess, I guess 416 00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:55.870 Clubhouse, I don't know if it's working out or if there's a lot of activity 417 00:27:55.870 --> 00:28:00.330 going on to the BBC World in the B two B. It is where a Tic Tac was, of course, 418 00:28:00.330 --> 00:28:04.580 more B two C because it started off with junior hires in high schoolers. So 419 00:28:04.590 --> 00:28:07.930 that's still actually, I think Tik TAKS working its way up to a B two B crowd. 420 00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:12.520 God, I hope I hope B two b never touches ticktock and keeps it pure. I 421 00:28:12.520 --> 00:28:16.850 cringe every like I hate it. It's just a purist in me that loves ticktock and 422 00:28:16.850 --> 00:28:20.350 wants to see B two b stay off of it. Clubhouse is interesting because 423 00:28:20.350 --> 00:28:25.220 clubhouse was never intended to be, ah, business app. It was never designed to 424 00:28:25.220 --> 00:28:31.170 be the linked in chat room that it has become, and I've really enjoyed the 425 00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:36.280 colliding worlds of what clubhouse waas? And then what? Clubhouse became once 426 00:28:36.280 --> 00:28:40.180 linked and influencers got ahold of it. It'll be really interesting. It will be 427 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.380 very fun to watch the development of this app. I think clubhouses around to 428 00:28:43.380 --> 00:28:47.180 stay. It's the only one in its channel. It's the only one that's hitting this 429 00:28:47.180 --> 00:28:51.860 kind of, you know, chat room medium, and I definitely think that we need to 430 00:28:51.940 --> 00:28:55.920 pay attention. I think it's gonna be around for a while. Well, we'll see. I 431 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.570 think our CEO James is putting a lot of effort into clubhouse as a marketer. 432 00:28:59.570 --> 00:29:03.280 I'm just trying to stay focused on our three key channels, which is linked in 433 00:29:03.280 --> 00:29:07.760 podcasting. And I have a knack for getting blood post to rank. So and I 434 00:29:07.760 --> 00:29:11.420 have a writing team, so I'm that three channels for me and I'm like, I can't 435 00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:13.970 do more than three channels, which is why we're killing our newsletter. I 436 00:29:13.970 --> 00:29:17.180 mean, you're you're killing it on linked in, you know, And it sounds like 437 00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:20.570 you're killing it in the podcast space. So it definitely sounds like I talked 438 00:29:20.570 --> 00:29:23.200 to a lot of people have no idea what they're actually talking about in a 439 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.730 really good at faking it. And it sounds like you've got the right ideas on your 440 00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:29.340 shoulders. You know, it's good to see it's cool to see and thank you for 441 00:29:29.340 --> 00:29:31.750 putting out good content so I could just engage and I have to write 442 00:29:31.750 --> 00:29:38.280 original stuff myself. Hey, well, it's been a fun conversation. John. I really 443 00:29:38.280 --> 00:29:42.420 enjoyed enjoyed it. It's fun talking from one practitioner to another, 444 00:29:42.430 --> 00:29:46.860 evaluating all these ideas and specifically a B m for this series on a 445 00:29:46.860 --> 00:29:51.690 B M. John, if people wanna follow up with you and connect with you Where 446 00:29:51.690 --> 00:29:57.050 where can they find you Online? Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn at John Eichmann on 447 00:29:57.050 --> 00:30:00.930 Twitter at the John Eichmann. Because there's a doctor that took my handle 448 00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:05.050 and, uh, yeah, reach out to me on their Lincoln is probably the best place. 449 00:30:05.540 --> 00:30:08.940 Fantastic. John again, Thank you for joining me on the B two B growth show 450 00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:10.550 today. Alright, Thanks, Dan. 451 00:30:12.340 --> 00:30:16.010 One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of 452 00:30:16.010 --> 00:30:20.450 mouth works. It works really, really well, actually. So if you love this 453 00:30:20.450 --> 00:30:24.610 show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if 454 00:30:24.610 --> 00:30:29.040 you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend Meta I 455 00:30:29.040 --> 00:30:32.580 know. I'll send you a copy of my book content based networking. How to 456 00:30:32.590 --> 00:30:36.030 instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 457 00:30:36.030 --> 00:30:42.260 4074903328 Happy texting
