Use Employee Thought Leadership to Increase Your Reach

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:08.910 welcome back to BTB growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and today 3 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:13.650 I'm joined by Jonathan, rava, who is the head of thought leadership at apps 4 00:00:13.650 --> 00:00:18.960 flyer, Jonathan, Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Happy to be here. 5 00:00:18.970 --> 00:00:22.560 So for those of you who are just tuning in and maybe you missed the last 6 00:00:22.560 --> 00:00:26.710 episode. But we are kicking off a deep dive into the topic of thought 7 00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:31.060 leadership, marketing and thought leadership in general. It's a topic 8 00:00:31.060 --> 00:00:33.880 that I've become more and more passionate about as I've studied it 9 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:37.960 over the last year, I've read every book on the topic, but I still have so 10 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:43.000 much to learn. Every topic has all its big points, but it has so many nuances 11 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:46.920 and so many different ways of doing it and honestly, there's only so much you 12 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:50.580 can learn from books and while I'll be sharing my insights from some of the 13 00:00:50.580 --> 00:00:54.160 books I've read over the course of this series, one of the big things I wanted 14 00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:57.360 to do and we do this with every deep dive, is talk to the people in the 15 00:00:57.360 --> 00:01:01.590 trenches, talk to the people who are doing the work day in day out because 16 00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:05.290 everybody listen to this nose. Like, there's a huge difference between the 17 00:01:05.290 --> 00:01:09.900 people who just read about a subject and the people who actually like live 18 00:01:09.900 --> 00:01:14.130 this and do this and breathe this. Like It goes beyond books and if you're a 19 00:01:14.130 --> 00:01:17.340 marketer and coming out of like, had studied marketing in college, like you 20 00:01:17.340 --> 00:01:20.730 kind of know, like you thought you learned, even if you did well in 21 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:24.450 college, you're like, oh, but I didn't know within one year of work, I feel 22 00:01:24.450 --> 00:01:28.400 like I learned like 10 years worth of college of what I learned and marketing, 23 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:32.360 right? Because having your hands deep in the subject matter yourself is just 24 00:01:32.360 --> 00:01:36.980 a huge difference. So I'm excited to talk to Jonathan who's the the head of 25 00:01:36.980 --> 00:01:39.940 that leadership, as I mentioned before, and I'm excited to talk to him 26 00:01:39.940 --> 00:01:44.730 specifically because he's got more of a unique background. A lot of people get 27 00:01:44.730 --> 00:01:48.940 into thought leadership through the route of public relations. It's a very 28 00:01:48.940 --> 00:01:52.020 heavy communications and we'll we'll be talking to some practitioners who are 29 00:01:52.020 --> 00:01:56.290 on the pr side. I was excited to talk to Jonathan because he comes from a 30 00:01:56.290 --> 00:02:01.520 different background. So Jonathan tell us a little bit about how you got in, 31 00:02:01.520 --> 00:02:04.070 like, or tell us like from the beginning of your career, like how did 32 00:02:04.070 --> 00:02:08.250 it start and then how did it slowly progress into being the head of thought 33 00:02:08.250 --> 00:02:12.320 leadership for a company? Sure, I have to say right from the get go that, you 34 00:02:12.320 --> 00:02:18.140 know me getting to where I am right now, it kind of happened by mistake. Like I 35 00:02:18.140 --> 00:02:26.430 think a lot of careers tend to do that. I came from a biz dev sales and 36 00:02:26.430 --> 00:02:33.160 progressed later on into marketing, into marketing, let's say writing based 37 00:02:33.170 --> 00:02:39.800 marketing roles. So I used to be uh the voice of a company in forums and then I 38 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:45.270 did some meetups and did a lot of texts and and and writing regarding that. And 39 00:02:45.270 --> 00:02:49.960 then I was head of brand marketing, it was all in the mobile marketing stage 40 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:57.000 which abs fire belongs to. But my real passion was always writing even before 41 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:03.090 I started my career, that was it. And what happened is that just because of 42 00:03:03.090 --> 00:03:07.450 my knowledge in the mobile marketing industry, the Ceo of the company, you 43 00:03:07.450 --> 00:03:12.140 know, he picked me on linkedin not surprisingly and we knew each other and 44 00:03:12.140 --> 00:03:16.620 he asked me to come for for an interview in the interview, he told me, 45 00:03:16.630 --> 00:03:22.390 listen, I want you to do community marketing but on the side I also want 46 00:03:22.390 --> 00:03:28.950 you to write for our Ceo. So this is how I got the role. I was head of 47 00:03:28.950 --> 00:03:32.650 Community marketing for a long time. That was that was my my official title. 48 00:03:32.660 --> 00:03:37.880 What happened is is that you know, we we we took the community marketing on, 49 00:03:37.890 --> 00:03:41.820 you know, on the back burner didn't really work out. We didn't know which 50 00:03:41.820 --> 00:03:46.690 way to go. So I was focused on the Ceo of the company writing his linked in 51 00:03:46.690 --> 00:03:53.000 and his blog post. And since he's so busy I just got bored. This is what 52 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:58.910 happened. And instead of not doing anything, I talked to the Ceo and said, 53 00:03:58.920 --> 00:04:02.530 well we're while I'm here let me write for you. Then I talked to Chief People 54 00:04:02.530 --> 00:04:08.750 Officer. I told I told him let me write for you as well. And it started to 55 00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:13.810 expand and then the Chief people Officer and then non executives and it 56 00:04:13.810 --> 00:04:20.839 started to expand. And in the course of one year and nine months, it's actually, 57 00:04:20.850 --> 00:04:24.800 it's kind of interesting that we're talking this week because yesterday, 58 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:29.910 the 100th person in the company that I've written for published a thought 59 00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:36.310 leadership posts on linkedin. So it grew from run to 100 Within about two 60 00:04:36.310 --> 00:04:43.840 years. But it was never the goal. This isn't why they brought me to us, right? 61 00:04:43.840 --> 00:04:49.420 They brought me to write to the Ceo, but I ended up understanding that one 62 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:54.570 isn't enough. Even if it is in the top of the pyramid, everyone has a voice, 63 00:04:54.580 --> 00:04:59.780 everyone gets to share their voice and thought leadership. Maybe I'm talking, 64 00:04:59.780 --> 00:05:02.910 maybe you're gonna ask me that later on. But thought leadership is totally 65 00:05:02.910 --> 00:05:09.850 democratized now. It's not just for execs that's just it, it's just it's 66 00:05:09.850 --> 00:05:15.390 not like a pr thing that you put an article or like a thought leadership 67 00:05:15.400 --> 00:05:22.510 item on inc dot com or entrepreneur or fourth, it's not it anymore, we're in a 68 00:05:22.510 --> 00:05:28.330 different different error in terms of Saudi worship. So I gradually started 69 00:05:28.330 --> 00:05:33.720 writing for everyone in the company and in any position, any role in any 70 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:39.170 seniority level, that's kind of my story, I love that, I love where you're 71 00:05:39.170 --> 00:05:42.890 going with this. I'm going to circle back around the democratization of 72 00:05:42.890 --> 00:05:45.640 thought leadership and I think we have a lot of similar opinions already 73 00:05:45.650 --> 00:05:50.140 forming at Sweet Fish Media. Um We have a we actually have a term for what 74 00:05:50.140 --> 00:05:54.220 we're calling it, but before we get there um I want to circle back to what 75 00:05:54.220 --> 00:05:56.880 you were doing, you said you are writing early on like what kind of 76 00:05:56.880 --> 00:06:00.370 stuff were you writing before you got into mobile marketing and community 77 00:06:00.370 --> 00:06:04.880 management. How what kind of writing were you doing? I always had a passion 78 00:06:04.880 --> 00:06:10.900 for writing but it wasn't professional like I used to write short stories, I 79 00:06:10.900 --> 00:06:15.850 even try to get on, just get a second degree in literature, but then I 80 00:06:15.850 --> 00:06:19.520 started my career so I couldn't you know, finish and get my degree, but I 81 00:06:19.520 --> 00:06:25.060 was always, I always had a passion for writing, It doesn't matter how and what 82 00:06:25.070 --> 00:06:30.850 and I guess what I'm doing right now, it fits me like a glove because I get 83 00:06:30.850 --> 00:06:37.040 to write every day, that's what I do. I'm like 100 and 10% focused on writing 84 00:06:37.050 --> 00:06:44.520 and each of those thought leadership post that I write and I've written 635 85 00:06:44.520 --> 00:06:49.910 so far, I have uh I have a google sheet with all of them, so I know each of 86 00:06:49.910 --> 00:06:54.540 them, or at least most of them have kind of a story. So even if it's 87 00:06:54.540 --> 00:06:58.340 professional, I kind of write short stories or at least something with a 88 00:06:58.340 --> 00:07:03.230 theme in the narrative and this is what I have fashion for. That makes so much 89 00:07:03.230 --> 00:07:08.260 sense that it has more of a narrative to it. I mean, I know a lot of the 90 00:07:08.260 --> 00:07:11.200 things we remember we remember, because there's a little bit of a story there, 91 00:07:11.200 --> 00:07:15.070 it kind of gives context for the idea and actually an application to the idea. 92 00:07:15.070 --> 00:07:19.600 What usually thought leadership is kind of seen as like a um I don't know, like 93 00:07:19.610 --> 00:07:24.680 an idea solution to a problem um or point of view, but all those things 94 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:28.160 have context and story provides that it makes a little bit more memorable, so 95 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.260 that kinda makes a lot of sense. You said you'd gotten into mobile marketing 96 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:36.710 and brand marketing. Tell me a little bit more about that. I was always like, 97 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:41.210 I don't know thrilled about about mobile phones even in the days of, you 98 00:07:41.210 --> 00:07:46.430 know, Nokia Symbian phones. So this is how I started really my career as an 99 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:50.260 account manager and working as an advertising manager from cellular 100 00:07:50.260 --> 00:07:58.160 company and then went into that business development slash sales pit. 101 00:07:58.640 --> 00:08:02.870 You know, we can call it it now because they say they always say it's like 102 00:08:02.870 --> 00:08:07.260 business development but usually it's just sales and I'm a lousy salesperson. 103 00:08:07.640 --> 00:08:12.970 So I gradually moved into marketing because that was actually my way to 104 00:08:12.970 --> 00:08:18.350 bring in leeds. So I I used to work for an ad network and I really felt as a as 105 00:08:18.350 --> 00:08:22.390 a salesperson about bringing in the leads and closing them. Huh? And I 106 00:08:22.390 --> 00:08:25.720 found out when I started doing something that I loved like being the 107 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:30.090 voice of the company, advising people in developing like mobile developer 108 00:08:30.090 --> 00:08:34.710 forms, I started bringing in the leads like I started actually doing what I 109 00:08:34.710 --> 00:08:40.539 was supposed to do as a lousy salesperson. So and again it all boils 110 00:08:40.539 --> 00:08:46.400 down to when you do something you have passion for your ultimately much better 111 00:08:46.410 --> 00:08:51.530 than anything else you will ever do. So circling back to the topic of 112 00:08:51.530 --> 00:08:56.760 democratizing thought leadership. Why would you say that? It's it's no longer 113 00:08:57.140 --> 00:09:01.420 just the C suite anymore, like what's killed that essentially? Why is that 114 00:09:01.420 --> 00:09:07.090 dead? I think it's hard to, it's hard for a lot of companies to praise, to 115 00:09:07.090 --> 00:09:10.810 praise Microsoft. But the truth of the matter is I think it's linked in, I 116 00:09:10.810 --> 00:09:15.760 think Lincoln made the difference. Um it's like, you know, again, it used to 117 00:09:15.760 --> 00:09:20.220 be like the tech blogs are like the big tech close at the Techcrunch and the 118 00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:24.150 Venture Beat and the entrepreneur dot com and the Forbes and all of those, 119 00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:28.700 you know, those were where the executives wanted their spot and Forbes 120 00:09:28.700 --> 00:09:34.010 whatever. And it was like, it was a very small portion of the company that 121 00:09:34.010 --> 00:09:41.360 even got to a place that they could voice their opinions and nobody ever 122 00:09:41.740 --> 00:09:47.530 try to take a different direction in terms of company strategy, in terms of 123 00:09:47.530 --> 00:09:52.110 their marketing strategy. Yeah. You want the Ceo or the CMO or the Ceo or 124 00:09:52.110 --> 00:09:57.880 the CPO, you want them to get interviewed and you want them to to 125 00:09:57.880 --> 00:10:04.600 share their voice. But I can tell you that in that app supplier the people 126 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:09.690 with the most, the highest amount of followers on the Ceo. It's a talent 127 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:15.590 sourcer which which, you know, she gets people to work for a bachelor which is 128 00:10:15.590 --> 00:10:20.610 now, she's now in talent marketing uh and the head of sales in in games in 129 00:10:20.610 --> 00:10:26.040 the U. S. These are the people that make probably more different than even 130 00:10:26.050 --> 00:10:31.390 opposed by the Ceo. Although of course he matters a lot. Again it's not this 131 00:10:31.390 --> 00:10:36.850 or that it's everyone. The power of a company in thought leadership is the 132 00:10:36.850 --> 00:10:42.840 mass is the mass is is the is the diversity. It's the amount of people 133 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:46.660 that get to share their voice and speak up and brand the company as a leader 134 00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:49.710 makes so much sense. I mean the social media has kind of been known to 135 00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:52.760 democratize lots of things, lots of communications but that thought 136 00:10:52.760 --> 00:10:57.690 leadership it would democratize as well. I mean I've seen it myself where it's 137 00:10:57.690 --> 00:11:01.770 like somebody's getting more traction for a company and they're just a 138 00:11:01.770 --> 00:11:05.960 specialist. Sometimes. I literally see entry level employees who have more 139 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.550 followers and get more engagement on linkedin all the time. More than the, 140 00:11:09.940 --> 00:11:14.770 the heads of the company. So you're right and companies can either let that 141 00:11:14.770 --> 00:11:21.530 person go about or it can actually maybe pull that person into, into some 142 00:11:21.530 --> 00:11:24.270 kind of program for the rest of the company. It's something we do here at 143 00:11:24.270 --> 00:11:27.850 Sweet Fish. We actually have what we call the Lincoln evangelist program 144 00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:31.200 where we have some requirements for the employees, but we actually even throw 145 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.830 resources behind employees linked in accounts knowing that it works 146 00:11:34.830 --> 00:11:38.830 remarkably well. And some, some employees do better than others. Some 147 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:43.160 just know how to write well and like their post just connect and go viral. 148 00:11:43.540 --> 00:11:47.110 Um, and they all have their own unique voices. So we found it's been working 149 00:11:47.110 --> 00:11:51.530 particularly well. What are some of the advantages you've seen? Um, as you get 150 00:11:51.530 --> 00:11:56.660 more and more employees on board at apps flyer? What's happened differently 151 00:11:56.670 --> 00:12:01.600 because you're bringing more people into it than before? First of all, we 152 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:06.600 didn't, you know, I dare say I'm not to see, I'm not the CMO, but I dare say 153 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:12.290 that, you know, thought leadership wasn't really weaved into our marketing 154 00:12:12.290 --> 00:12:18.650 strategy before I started my role. Now it's weaved into it, it's not weaved 155 00:12:18.650 --> 00:12:22.740 into it in terms of that's what we're constantly thinking about. But when 156 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:26.700 we're talking about the difference between dimension and legion, then 157 00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:30.660 thought leadership really takes over this is where this is where we shine. 158 00:12:31.140 --> 00:12:35.190 Once you understand that thought the issue isn't meant to give you leads and 159 00:12:35.190 --> 00:12:39.290 I think that's the, that's the biggest impact that we made in the that I made 160 00:12:39.290 --> 00:12:43.860 in the company. Then we realize that this is a dimension to another legion 161 00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:49.410 tool, it's a branding tool. Then you realize the impact that it has. The 162 00:12:49.420 --> 00:12:53.200 impact that it has is not only on the lead to get the impact that it has is 163 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:58.820 the amount of people who request work for us as employees to work with us as 164 00:12:58.820 --> 00:13:04.760 partner to buy from us as customers. You know, it's all of the above and you 165 00:13:04.760 --> 00:13:10.430 can see like a lot of things in life, it goes viral, like the amount of 166 00:13:10.430 --> 00:13:15.450 excitement people have about them being thought the earth, it spreads around 167 00:13:15.450 --> 00:13:20.360 the company and people other people go and say, you know, I want some of that. 168 00:13:21.140 --> 00:13:24.350 So it's exciting for the rest of the employees. Like it's almost like a, 169 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:29.100 it's a way to reward employees by giving them exposure of a kind and 170 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:32.490 helping them develop in their career. Would you say it's like almost like an 171 00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:37.580 incentive to remain at apps fire? I don't know if it's an incentive, but I 172 00:13:37.580 --> 00:13:43.020 think it will be you don't want to disregard the fact that people that are 173 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:47.960 thought there's will later on get better offers, improve their careers 174 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:55.960 and get just get climbed the corporate ladder faster. You know, it's a kind of 175 00:13:55.960 --> 00:14:00.140 like singing in the shower, you may be very, very good at what you do, but if 176 00:14:00.140 --> 00:14:03.380 you don't voice it out, less people will notice it and and people 177 00:14:03.380 --> 00:14:07.710 understand that. And, and as a company, I think that's a that's a big challenge 178 00:14:07.710 --> 00:14:13.820 for a company to say, I'm not afraid of building people's reputation and 179 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:19.280 risking losing them because they get to be in the spotlight and then, you know, 180 00:14:19.280 --> 00:14:24.110 other companies will just grab them, a company needs to realize it and say, 181 00:14:24.110 --> 00:14:28.000 I'm not afraid, you know, I might lose some of them, but it's worth my while 182 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:33.460 because the impact on my brand is dramatic. So we're going to democratize 183 00:14:33.470 --> 00:14:36.480 thought leadership within a company for the listeners who are listening to this 184 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:40.760 in our interested or starting to become curious like, huh? What would that look 185 00:14:40.760 --> 00:14:45.070 like? The, roll it out? How would they know if this is a good approach for 186 00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:47.830 their company? Are there anything any kind of companies that this probably 187 00:14:47.830 --> 00:14:52.210 wouldn't be the best best approach for? We'll start with that. Like are there 188 00:14:52.210 --> 00:14:55.920 any companies that this wouldn't be a good idea for it? You can think of. I 189 00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:00.910 actually don't, I'm sorry to say I not only do, I think this fits all 190 00:15:00.910 --> 00:15:05.090 companies, especially high tech companies, anyone who has any kind of 191 00:15:05.090 --> 00:15:10.460 relevance to linkedin or social networks, I think this fits all roles, 192 00:15:11.040 --> 00:15:16.300 like from the ceo to the janitor. I'm sorry to be non politically correct, 193 00:15:16.310 --> 00:15:22.550 but every single person in the company has something they can speak about and 194 00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:27.100 every single person unless the company wants wants just to waste money has 195 00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:31.930 some sort of significance for the company's results and if so they can 196 00:15:31.930 --> 00:15:36.770 speak about them. So this fits in my eyes. This fits not only every company, 197 00:15:36.770 --> 00:15:40.890 it fits every employee in every company. Okay. That's interesting. I'm trying to 198 00:15:40.890 --> 00:15:44.150 think through companies that I think might not be as good of a fit. Like 199 00:15:44.160 --> 00:15:48.330 high tech makes sense because usually high tech is high tech because you're 200 00:15:48.330 --> 00:15:51.330 pushing the envelope in some way. It's innovation and innovation and 201 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:54.900 leadership Marketing go really well, right. Thought leadership is almost 202 00:15:54.900 --> 00:15:59.550 like the positioning of innovation. But for other companies, maybe you're the 203 00:15:59.560 --> 00:16:03.730 low cost leader in your category and you sell commodities and you just do it 204 00:16:03.730 --> 00:16:07.710 better and faster and can deliver it at a lower cost than most people. How does 205 00:16:07.710 --> 00:16:11.460 thought leadership work its way into a company like that? If you're selling 206 00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:16.630 commodities, it's all about thought leadership in in essence, it's all 207 00:16:16.630 --> 00:16:23.570 about creating some sort of awareness two Your expertise and to a problem. So 208 00:16:23.570 --> 00:16:29.730 this fits everything. It doesn't matter if you're selling hardware, computers 209 00:16:29.740 --> 00:16:35.990 or a suspect from like uh like apps, right? It really doesn't matter. You 210 00:16:35.990 --> 00:16:40.160 need to speak about what people care about, not about yourself, not about 211 00:16:40.160 --> 00:16:45.830 the company, only about what people care about. And you know, it fits, it 212 00:16:45.830 --> 00:16:49.230 kind of fits everyone. It fits me to see if it's me to be, maybe the 213 00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:53.660 platform is different. Maybe if you're, if you're doing me to see if your end 214 00:16:53.660 --> 00:16:57.460 customers on companies, there are people then then go to facebook or or 215 00:16:57.470 --> 00:17:03.310 uh I don't know or twitter, twitter fits everyone but instagram or facebook 216 00:17:03.310 --> 00:17:07.660 or other places. If you're selling, I don't know, microchips then go to a 217 00:17:07.660 --> 00:17:13.300 technical platform where people discuss it and talk about that stuff. But if 218 00:17:13.300 --> 00:17:18.060 you're talking about business then go to Lincoln and talk about business. So 219 00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:22.220 I'm still thinking about like someone who sells commodities maybe like, I 220 00:17:22.230 --> 00:17:26.819 don't know like manufacturing parts to manufacturers, right? Commodity, just 221 00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:31.370 steal something like that. I was wondering if like if you're trying to 222 00:17:31.370 --> 00:17:34.260 come up with a thought leadership position for those companies, would you 223 00:17:34.260 --> 00:17:38.480 be like interviewing employees and how they keep costs low, how they're 224 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.020 efficient they are because that's what people care about is getting the bottom 225 00:17:41.020 --> 00:17:45.010 dollar right? I'm not sure that they care about how it's made more than 226 00:17:45.010 --> 00:17:49.460 getting the low cost, getting the goods at low cost and making sure they're at 227 00:17:49.460 --> 00:17:53.330 a certain quality level or whatever. Um But maybe there's a story, there may be, 228 00:17:53.330 --> 00:17:56.680 there are thought leadership positions. Um I think about a popular grocery 229 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.420 store that's been kind of blowing up here in the US that beating out things 230 00:17:59.420 --> 00:18:04.040 like walmart is all the, so it's kind of a german grocery chain and I don't 231 00:18:04.040 --> 00:18:08.070 think they have all the there in Israel, but it's essentially just efficient. 232 00:18:08.070 --> 00:18:11.300 They only have a few employees and the employees are cross trained and you 233 00:18:11.300 --> 00:18:14.770 can't like grocery carts, you don't leave them in the parking lot, you have 234 00:18:14.770 --> 00:18:18.110 to put them back to because you have to get to use a quarter to like unlock it 235 00:18:18.110 --> 00:18:20.880 and put it back at your quarterback. But they have all these like little 236 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:25.220 things that are just different and bring all their prices down real low. 237 00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:28.420 There are also small compared to like the typical huge walmart stores we have 238 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:33.250 here. But I know they have a rave like a huge following and a cult following 239 00:18:33.250 --> 00:18:36.600 for this grocery store because they deliver good stuff and it's cheaper 240 00:18:36.600 --> 00:18:39.970 than everywhere else. Um But almost think like no, I can see a thought 241 00:18:39.970 --> 00:18:42.820 leadership position for a store like that even though they're the low cost 242 00:18:42.820 --> 00:18:47.500 leader. I don't know if leadership lends itself as well to a company like 243 00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:51.630 that as it does to innovative companies. But I could probably see a way where 244 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:56.250 thought leadership can be used even for most companies though I'd be interested 245 00:18:56.250 --> 00:19:00.990 like with you are rolling out this kind of a program and you want to go beyond 246 00:19:00.990 --> 00:19:04.700 the C suite, you're starting at a new company, they want to get started. How 247 00:19:04.700 --> 00:19:09.090 do you roll this out? Well, that's that's a great question. I don't know 248 00:19:09.090 --> 00:19:13.650 what I what I would have done differently. But I I can tell you that 249 00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:19.960 right now I kind of have across a very distinct process with with a new person. 250 00:19:20.340 --> 00:19:24.920 Like what I've learned in the in the past two years is that each person is 251 00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:28.620 very very different in the work process and his writing styles and it's writing 252 00:19:28.620 --> 00:19:34.650 skills and it is enthusiasm and in this and everything about each and every 253 00:19:34.650 --> 00:19:37.850 person that right is different. But the beginning is usually the same. What I 254 00:19:37.850 --> 00:19:42.890 do is I kind of interview them. Like I since I'm in mobile marketing and I 255 00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:48.310 have the experience of the of the industry in which we we operate so I 256 00:19:48.310 --> 00:19:53.570 kind of know you know the basics but then if it's a C. T. Oh I don't know 257 00:19:53.580 --> 00:19:57.430 anything about it and if it's the chief people officer I certainly know, don't 258 00:19:57.430 --> 00:20:02.790 know anything about HR So I needed to learn that stuff about what they do. So 259 00:20:02.790 --> 00:20:06.610 what I do is just I just interviewed them and when I interview them I 260 00:20:06.610 --> 00:20:12.030 usually just asked them very very typical questions about stuff that they 261 00:20:12.030 --> 00:20:16.710 have been involved in and what they think about A. B. And C. In the 262 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:22.100 industry, in the company challenges failures. I really like those because 263 00:20:22.100 --> 00:20:26.370 people can really it really resonates with people because everybody fails um 264 00:20:26.370 --> 00:20:32.070 successes uh limited. But we we talk about them as well about that as well 265 00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:37.600 and anything they have any passion about, basically I'm looking for their 266 00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:43.990 passion and in my Experience 100% of the people I talked to the difficult 267 00:20:43.990 --> 00:20:48.270 was the easy ones. They all have passion. So I'm trying to find those 268 00:20:48.270 --> 00:20:52.260 and then I just asked them a question is usually a process with a google, 269 00:20:52.260 --> 00:20:58.390 like a conversation with in zoom like we're having right now, then a google a 270 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:03.090 google dog with questions they answer and each of their answers, I turned 271 00:21:03.100 --> 00:21:09.970 into a draft, they look at it, then we, you know, we ping pong the style and 272 00:21:09.970 --> 00:21:13.790 you know, the narrative and everything and then, you know, the process becomes 273 00:21:13.790 --> 00:21:18.970 much, much easier Down the road once we got we start, you know, sending a few 274 00:21:18.970 --> 00:21:24.100 out and they kind of get to know what it feels like to be a thought leader, 275 00:21:24.100 --> 00:21:30.900 to be, you know, to for people to like and comment and their view, the profile 276 00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:37.460 views goes up 250% suddenly and they get a lot of connection requests so 277 00:21:37.470 --> 00:21:42.810 they need to get used to it and I need to encourage them all the time. So for 278 00:21:42.810 --> 00:21:47.470 a lot of times it's uh for many in many occasions I just, I hold their hand for 279 00:21:47.470 --> 00:21:53.790 a very long time. Hey everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you're a 280 00:21:53.790 --> 00:21:57.520 regular listener of GDP growth, you know that I'm one of the co hosts of 281 00:21:57.520 --> 00:22:01.420 the show, but you may not know that. I also head up the sales team here is 282 00:22:01.420 --> 00:22:05.720 sweet fish. So for those of you in sales or sales ops, I wanted to take a 283 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.870 second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient lately. Our 284 00:22:09.870 --> 00:22:13.970 team has been using lead I. Q. For the past few months and what used to take 285 00:22:13.970 --> 00:22:19.700 us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one where 75% more 286 00:22:19.700 --> 00:22:24.160 efficient were able to move faster with outbound prospecting and organizing our 287 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:28.980 campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest you guys check out 288 00:22:28.990 --> 00:22:35.200 lead I. Q. As well. You can check them out at lead I Q dot com. That's L E A D 289 00:22:35.210 --> 00:22:43.230 I Q dot com. All right. Let's get back to the show, man. It's, we're doing 290 00:22:43.230 --> 00:22:46.710 something really similar at Sweet Fish Media. So even before we started 291 00:22:46.710 --> 00:22:49.790 recording this interview, he's like, he asked cause he's looking for more 292 00:22:49.790 --> 00:22:52.390 people. It's doing what he's doing. I'm like, we're getting really close. We're 293 00:22:52.390 --> 00:22:56.780 getting, I'm behind you, but I'm not far from you. But we've been, I've been 294 00:22:56.780 --> 00:22:59.730 systematically interviewing employees and trying to get them set up as I'm 295 00:22:59.730 --> 00:23:02.610 not positioning them as like thought leadership content. We're telling it 296 00:23:02.620 --> 00:23:06.360 the Lincoln evangelist program, right? But I'm usually trying to find their 297 00:23:06.360 --> 00:23:10.290 unique spin and I'm usually trying to figure out how to do somewhat tie it 298 00:23:10.290 --> 00:23:13.240 back to the company. but not necessarily like we have some people 299 00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:19.070 that have, like a, like one of our podcast producers runs a podcast about 300 00:23:19.080 --> 00:23:25.450 uh, it's called recruitment hell, right? So uh, recruiting hell, if you, so if 301 00:23:25.450 --> 00:23:29.700 you want to find a good show on how to be better at finding jobs and getting 302 00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:32.860 out of recruiting hill, like you can go search that in the podcast right now. 303 00:23:32.870 --> 00:23:36.380 Great show. But I'm trying to figure out ways to like incorporate both. How 304 00:23:36.380 --> 00:23:39.930 do we pump up his positions that he's developed with his own personal brand 305 00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:43.390 as well as crossovers between, of course, podcasting since he has a 306 00:23:43.390 --> 00:23:47.080 podcast in the brand. I'm wondering how you're managing that process when 307 00:23:47.080 --> 00:23:50.520 you're interviewing people, Are you trying to position them on the things 308 00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:54.310 that they're passionate about and, and tie it back to the company? Or do you 309 00:23:54.310 --> 00:23:57.670 try to tie it back to the company more so like how are you balancing that? 310 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:05.970 Okay, When I do, I do a few uh sessions, you know, I lecture So for some 311 00:24:05.970 --> 00:24:11.910 companies and I always use one of the slides there, the first size about how 312 00:24:11.910 --> 00:24:16.200 to do thought leadership. I used the slide from Fight Club. Well, you see 313 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:22.730 brad pitt without a shirt and it says, the quote is the first rule of fight 314 00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:28.460 Club. You do not talk about fight club. So the first rule of thought leadership, 315 00:24:28.470 --> 00:24:33.010 you never talk about your company, You never talk about the company. So my 316 00:24:33.010 --> 00:24:37.710 role is, it's like 100% thought the issue of 0% promotion. You know, that's 317 00:24:37.710 --> 00:24:41.780 why I personally, again, you know, everyone can do whatever they want. You 318 00:24:41.780 --> 00:24:47.750 know, I'm not telling anyone how to do their own business, but I I try to stay 319 00:24:47.750 --> 00:24:52.810 away from the world evangelist because evangelists which are great, I'd love 320 00:24:52.810 --> 00:24:57.290 to be an evangelist one day. They're promoting the company. I don't want to 321 00:24:57.290 --> 00:25:04.090 promote the company. Okay, what what I sense when people right on Lincoln, is 322 00:25:04.090 --> 00:25:11.550 that the minute you kind of smell that this is a promotion, People lose 90% of 323 00:25:11.550 --> 00:25:15.140 their, you know, their attention of their attention, you know, and people 324 00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:20.050 can smell it a mile away like sharks and then when it becomes a promotion, 325 00:25:20.060 --> 00:25:24.080 it's not interesting anymore. It's like a billboard on a highway and you know, 326 00:25:24.090 --> 00:25:31.360 you forget about it. The main goal in the audio ship is to inspire people or 327 00:25:31.360 --> 00:25:36.510 to get people to to feel something. It sounds like a cliche, especially when 328 00:25:36.510 --> 00:25:39.580 we're talking about the business was who wants to feel, you know, this is 329 00:25:39.590 --> 00:25:43.250 this is business, it's not about feelings, but people feel inspired. 330 00:25:43.250 --> 00:25:47.670 They don't think they're inspired, we want to inspire them and we can't do it 331 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:53.770 If we're talking about our company. So for me it's 0% promotion. Like and and 332 00:25:53.770 --> 00:25:59.350 and it's tough but that's what that's what and we can't always get there but 333 00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:03.240 that's where we're always going to aim. So funny. I've used that same picture 334 00:26:03.250 --> 00:26:07.740 of fight club but I have a different rule and my rule is the number one rule 335 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:11.900 of thought leadership is that you can't call yourself a thought leader. Oh 336 00:26:11.900 --> 00:26:14.830 that's pretty good. As you call yourself a thought leader. You can be 337 00:26:14.830 --> 00:26:18.330 one, you can aspire To be one, you can work towards being one but you can 338 00:26:18.330 --> 00:26:22.150 recall yourself one right? Completely agree. That's very true. Even worse. 339 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.580 Probably in my opinion, worse than just promoting your company out, right? Is 340 00:26:26.580 --> 00:26:29.000 calling yourself a thought leader and that's what everybody rolls their eyes 341 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:31.970 and that's why I thought leadership kind of has a kind of has some baggage, 342 00:26:31.970 --> 00:26:35.470 right? It's got a little cringe e sometimes, but it is what it is. It's a 343 00:26:35.470 --> 00:26:38.820 tried and true topic. But man, it's it's interesting. Maybe I need to 344 00:26:38.820 --> 00:26:42.400 change the name of our program because we don't intend for employees to 345 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:46.460 promote the company specifically and talk about sweet fishes services. And I 346 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:49.190 find that good evangelists, even for other companies that are there 347 00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:53.020 literally like their job title is evangelists don't talk about the 348 00:26:53.020 --> 00:26:56.950 company. They're usually promoting the ideas of the company, maybe the 349 00:26:56.950 --> 00:27:02.740 position of the company and there their way of thinking. But they're rarely 350 00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:05.980 ever talking about the company Ethan beauty of a bomb bomb comes to mind. 351 00:27:05.980 --> 00:27:09.400 I'm like, I'm like Ethan doesn't really talk about bom bom that much. He's 352 00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:13.640 promoting the ideas behind bom bom and the personal video sharing software 353 00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:18.120 they have. So I agree that that's that's a really important rule even 354 00:27:18.120 --> 00:27:22.440 then when it comes. So maybe maybe you don't position it to talk about the 355 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:25.580 company, but do you, do you try to bring it, do you do when you're 356 00:27:25.580 --> 00:27:28.720 crafting thought leadership for maybe like your your you said your head of 357 00:27:28.730 --> 00:27:34.100 people, your HR person, Are you mainly helping that person talk frame up her 358 00:27:34.100 --> 00:27:39.130 opinions on HR or does it tie back, does it somehow tie back to the, you 359 00:27:39.130 --> 00:27:43.020 know, the topic your customers are interested in? Maybe maybe they're not 360 00:27:43.030 --> 00:27:49.000 as interested in HR Now I every person talks about what they do, they don't 361 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.180 talk about what they don't do because it has to be driven from their passion 362 00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:57.960 and from their expertise. This is how we want to portray them. So an HR 363 00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:02.500 person doesn't matter if the chief people officer or the head of people 364 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:07.760 analytics or I don't know a recruiter. Um they're gonna talk about HR, they're 365 00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:10.680 gonna talk about careers, they're going to talk about people living, we're 366 00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:14.260 going to talk about the onboarding new employees, they're gonna talk about why 367 00:28:14.260 --> 00:28:19.170 we're having breakfast in the company. What's the importance of Brexit? I'm 368 00:28:19.170 --> 00:28:23.120 mentioning it because it's one of my favorite, my all time favorite posted. 369 00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:29.120 I've written, why do we have breakfast in the company? It's not about giving 370 00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:33.560 people the perks, it's about connecting people, that's that's the main thing. 371 00:28:33.570 --> 00:28:38.150 And we can talk about that, about why we're having breakfast in the company 372 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:43.420 without mentioning apps. Fire at all. Okay. Just by raising the awareness 373 00:28:43.420 --> 00:28:49.580 that we understand that breakfast is for connecting people. This means for 374 00:28:49.580 --> 00:28:53.530 people that we understand that we want to connect people and this makes our 375 00:28:53.530 --> 00:28:57.980 company a better company to work for in the eyes of the reader. That's all we 376 00:28:57.980 --> 00:29:02.890 want to do. We don't need a link in the end of here's the open positions. We 377 00:29:02.890 --> 00:29:07.660 don't need it, they're going to search for it. It's again, we're going back to 378 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.640 where we started. This is the difference between dimension and legion, 379 00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:16.650 and I would really recommend that you, if any one of our listeners or you if 380 00:29:16.650 --> 00:29:21.460 you don't know, chris walker, uh, from refined labs, look him up on election. 381 00:29:21.460 --> 00:29:26.410 He talks about the difference between legion and imagine all the time. And I 382 00:29:26.410 --> 00:29:30.820 really dig that because up until a few years ago, nobody really understood the 383 00:29:30.820 --> 00:29:34.880 difference and there's a huge, huge, huge difference. Yeah, Now we just, we 384 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:40.060 just finished up a deep dive last month on demand gen we had chris on the show. 385 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:44.540 It was good to get clarity on demand. Gen is essentially generating demand, 386 00:29:44.550 --> 00:29:49.500 helping people want what it is. You sell not necessarily you, but for the 387 00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:52.670 general category, it's almost like you're creating more desire for it 388 00:29:53.040 --> 00:29:57.240 versus legion is capturing that desire, right? I mean, you could do just legion 389 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:00.420 because there's in some categories, there's already demand for it. So you 390 00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:05.200 just go and bid on adwords and S Ceo and capture it. But demand gen is going 391 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.880 out ahead of that and creating more demand for it, you know, and hopefully 392 00:30:08.890 --> 00:30:13.310 more demand for how you do it right. Um, so thought leadership certainly dips 393 00:30:13.320 --> 00:30:16.540 into that. I find that thought leadership and I've heard you said this 394 00:30:16.540 --> 00:30:21.280 already like overlap somewhere between brand and demand jin doesn't dip into 395 00:30:21.280 --> 00:30:26.320 legion, but it's like floats between those two To come back to how you 396 00:30:26.320 --> 00:30:29.500 rolling this out of your company though. If you were starting over, would you 397 00:30:29.500 --> 00:30:33.780 roll this out as an announcement to all employees? How do you like if it's a 398 00:30:33.790 --> 00:30:38.340 larger company you have like 200 and 500 or more employees, it becomes too 399 00:30:38.340 --> 00:30:41.270 overwhelming for a single person to write thought leadership content for it. 400 00:30:41.270 --> 00:30:45.080 So like how do you roll it out? How do you select employees who's in and who's 401 00:30:45.080 --> 00:30:53.340 out of this program or out of this? You just touched a very uh sensitive point. 402 00:30:53.340 --> 00:30:57.490 You know, in my in my in my role it's really hard. I don't, first of all I 403 00:30:57.490 --> 00:31:02.080 don't discriminate, I don't choose anyone over the other. I let it I 404 00:31:02.080 --> 00:31:07.700 usually it's kind of my role expanded like like in a viral way so people 405 00:31:07.700 --> 00:31:12.140 heard and then people talked and then they came to me. I kind of created a 406 00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:16.760 demand jin campaign with what I was doing inside the company. So people 407 00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:23.290 came to me and it kept expanding. I don't say no to anyone. But what I've 408 00:31:23.290 --> 00:31:29.730 learned is that some people would want me to write one piece for them and then 409 00:31:29.740 --> 00:31:34.460 they decide it's not for them, you know to invest so much because thought 410 00:31:34.460 --> 00:31:38.620 leadership is an investment, I can do all the work. But even when I write the 411 00:31:38.620 --> 00:31:43.880 entire piece, people still have to publish it and then to comment when 412 00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:48.460 people comment and to add the increase their network etcetera etcetera so they 413 00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:52.810 need to invest in it. So a lot of people can't handle it on on a daily or 414 00:31:52.810 --> 00:31:58.590 certainly on a on a weekly basis. So what happens is I work with everyone. I 415 00:31:58.590 --> 00:32:03.950 say yes to everyone and I'm in my capacity, I'm pretty full, yes, I'm 416 00:32:03.950 --> 00:32:10.040 very busy. And what I try to do, which I haven't succeeded 100% yet is to 417 00:32:10.040 --> 00:32:17.180 teach people how to write and then turning me into less of a of a writer 418 00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:22.530 and more into an editor, which makes my life a bit easier and quicker and 419 00:32:22.540 --> 00:32:26.970 increases the frequency. But in order to do that, that person has to have a 420 00:32:26.970 --> 00:32:33.350 certain skill set like writing skills and ideation skills. So a lot of people 421 00:32:33.350 --> 00:32:37.350 have, you know, our super professional have a zillion ideas, but they don't 422 00:32:37.350 --> 00:32:42.300 know how to bring it out of themselves. And that's one of my biggest roles as 423 00:32:42.300 --> 00:32:47.720 head of thought leadership is taking a putting my my hand literally inside 424 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:53.220 their throat and night taking the ideas out and you know, presenting to them 425 00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:56.880 and saying, here's here's what you should be writing about and then here 426 00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:00.660 and say, all right, you know what, this is interesting. Yeah, that's right 427 00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:06.580 about it. So, it's kind of a never ending story. Um some do that, some do 428 00:33:06.590 --> 00:33:12.380 some do the others and I do favor when stuff is like sometimes stuff is urging 429 00:33:12.380 --> 00:33:17.450 with the ceo I'll always give him like priority, but I will never say no to 430 00:33:17.450 --> 00:33:22.160 anyone who wants me to write a piece for him, no matter what the subject is. 431 00:33:22.840 --> 00:33:27.500 Gotcha. Something we're trying here is by if we're going to put a company 432 00:33:27.500 --> 00:33:30.450 resources behind someone's personal brand and we want to do it because 433 00:33:30.450 --> 00:33:35.420 honestly, I've I uh I did some research and even in our hubspot account, I can 434 00:33:35.420 --> 00:33:40.220 track where like our income, our pipeline was generated um and Lincoln's 435 00:33:40.220 --> 00:33:43.580 through the roof. And I know it's because a bunch of us are posting on 436 00:33:43.580 --> 00:33:46.980 linkedin and getting massive traffic. I can track it from just reach to 437 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:52.570 comments and then to our inquiries and uh to to pipeline right when they 438 00:33:52.570 --> 00:33:55.080 become a customer and say like, oh, like how'd you hear about us, lengthen 439 00:33:55.080 --> 00:33:59.990 shows up a lot and it's produced a ton of revenue, hence we're expanding it. 440 00:33:59.990 --> 00:34:04.030 It was just the kind of the executive team with a few extra people, but now 441 00:34:04.030 --> 00:34:07.020 we're just kind of rolling it out company wide. one requirement I'm 442 00:34:07.020 --> 00:34:11.480 putting in place and I might, I don't know, we'll see how this goes is that I 443 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:16.080 want them to write at least for a month, a couple of times a week. And just to 444 00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:18.969 get into the habit of writing of just going through it and then continue 445 00:34:18.969 --> 00:34:21.550 writing as long as they're part of the program and we're helping them produce 446 00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:25.639 content. Now, we have a more entry level employee that's helping them 447 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:29.889 flesh out their ideas. I usually do the first interview um where I'm talking to 448 00:34:29.889 --> 00:34:32.600 them and kind of like you like you're pulling the ideas out of them, it's 449 00:34:32.600 --> 00:34:35.460 really kind of like getting all their ideas out on the table and then someone 450 00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:38.560 like you where I can like be like, oh well actually that's a unique idea. 451 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:42.179 That's pretty good. So you're calling out the ones that they didn't even know 452 00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:46.800 were like unique and helpful and that's probably the hardest part, in my 453 00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:50.870 opinion, is actually having the expertise to know which ideas are worth 454 00:34:50.870 --> 00:34:54.670 putting out there, which ideas are not. I find that's the value I can provide. 455 00:34:54.670 --> 00:34:57.660 And then we have a writer that is a good writer and can write clearly and 456 00:34:57.660 --> 00:35:01.520 she's really fun, witty and can help them flush out those ideas into more 457 00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:06.000 things if she can if I can get them to talk about a couple of them. But that 458 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.090 but that's a very important point. I think it's it's in terms of of of 459 00:35:10.090 --> 00:35:15.050 writing twice twice a week or once a week, writing is a muscle. You know, 460 00:35:15.050 --> 00:35:19.440 it's it's a muscle you have to train it to get better. It doesn't work any 461 00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:24.590 other way. Some people are more skilled, other or less skilled but they all need 462 00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:31.230 to practice it. Which is why by the way I'm writing myself for myself, I didn't 463 00:35:31.240 --> 00:35:35.310 I I didn't write on linked in before I started this position. I'm writing it 464 00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.860 to understand what about the other people that I write for going through. 465 00:35:39.540 --> 00:35:44.430 You need to practice what you preach and everybody needs to do it on some 466 00:35:44.430 --> 00:35:48.560 sort of a regular basis to to improve. And I do agree with you that sometimes 467 00:35:48.560 --> 00:35:52.630 it starts with the with the executive merely because the fact that other 468 00:35:52.630 --> 00:35:57.310 employees see the executives and want to imitate in a very good way The 469 00:35:57.310 --> 00:36:02.510 executives. So it would start with the executive, but then I think in a 470 00:36:02.510 --> 00:36:08.330 company um certainly a sauce company, a B2B company, you want that kind of 471 00:36:08.330 --> 00:36:14.500 inspiration to trickle down to every employee. Fantastic. I hope more and 472 00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:18.520 more companies figure this out because I feel like linkedin is just ripe with 473 00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:22.120 opportunity. There's so much, so much going on there and I find the more 474 00:36:22.120 --> 00:36:25.140 employees I get on there, the more synergy it builds, the more they're 475 00:36:25.140 --> 00:36:28.580 interacting with each other. So we're trying to help facilitate this and 476 00:36:28.590 --> 00:36:31.960 accelerate growth just by even creating getting all the employees in and I'm 477 00:36:31.970 --> 00:36:34.880 excited and commenting on each other's stuff which naturally gets out in front 478 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:40.030 of more people. It's interesting that you're helping them just focus on what 479 00:36:40.030 --> 00:36:43.200 they're passionate about. So that's kind of like my takeaway from this is 480 00:36:43.200 --> 00:36:47.710 you're just letting them beat them. We used to say like 80% you, but talk 481 00:36:47.710 --> 00:36:51.560 about sweet fish and not necessarily about sweet fishes services or products, 482 00:36:51.560 --> 00:36:55.390 but you know, podcasting, since we're a podcast agency, like talk about 483 00:36:55.390 --> 00:36:59.640 podcasting somehow. Um but naturally, I guess if they're doing their job and 484 00:36:59.640 --> 00:37:03.390 they work at a podcast agency, it's going to come up naturally organically. 485 00:37:03.390 --> 00:37:05.920 It's not like you have to be like, oh, you know, throw a post in there every 486 00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:08.150 once in a while about podcasting, they're probably going to talk about it 487 00:37:08.160 --> 00:37:11.880 because they have to come up with content. Yeah, I mean if you if you 488 00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:16.300 have some content to share, look uh on occasion occasionally we have like we 489 00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:19.930 have a very we do a lot of researchers. We have a lot of data about the 490 00:37:19.930 --> 00:37:24.300 industry and we share it. We have a lot of reports that were issuing out. 491 00:37:24.310 --> 00:37:28.120 Sometimes you have to promote the company or any sort of content that the 492 00:37:28.120 --> 00:37:32.350 company issued. We have a new product we have. Sometimes you have to do it, 493 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:37.540 but I reject the fact that you have to do it like 80%, It doesn't work. You 494 00:37:37.540 --> 00:37:41.890 have to do it. 100% thought leadership. Pure thought leadership, non 495 00:37:41.890 --> 00:37:47.340 promotional. If something happens and there's some stuff that happens that 496 00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:51.580 you want to promote. It's totally fine. And when you get when you do pure 497 00:37:51.580 --> 00:37:55.160 thought leadership and people see what the thought leader than anything else, 498 00:37:55.160 --> 00:37:58.790 you're going to promote. Its going to get much more attraction. So it doesn't 499 00:37:58.790 --> 00:38:05.070 have to be like 80%, I don't I don't necessarily agree. It's in a it's in a 500 00:38:05.080 --> 00:38:11.140 it's on a need basis if we need. But even that I have to say one more thing, 501 00:38:11.420 --> 00:38:17.620 there's a certain way in how you get to promote content, even promoting content, 502 00:38:17.620 --> 00:38:21.550 there's a certain there's a right way and the wrong way. In my opinion, in my 503 00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:25.310 opinion, it's like you can do here, here's our podcast, here's our podcast, 504 00:38:25.310 --> 00:38:28.220 here's our product, here's our feature, here's what we do, we're the best. 505 00:38:28.220 --> 00:38:33.280 Here's the link that's the wrong way. In my opinion, the right way is to 506 00:38:33.290 --> 00:38:39.100 create awareness or why would this even interest me as a reader, talk about 507 00:38:39.100 --> 00:38:44.060 that. Talk about the pain then in the end you can you can put the link inside. 508 00:38:44.070 --> 00:38:50.190 I have a lot of examples of how that pure promotion worked, awful, like 509 00:38:50.190 --> 00:38:55.600 really, really, really bad. Didn't trigger anything. Got a less views, not 510 00:38:55.600 --> 00:39:00.520 enough length and that thought leadership be kind of promotion got a 511 00:39:00.520 --> 00:39:01.540 lot more attraction. 512 00:39:02.720 --> 00:39:08.900 I agree that almost all of it should be non promotional every once in a while. 513 00:39:09.160 --> 00:39:12.120 I don't know, it's kind of a Gary V thing, right? It's jab, jab right hook 514 00:39:12.130 --> 00:39:16.780 every once in a while I'm like, I throw in a right hook and like the last time 515 00:39:16.780 --> 00:39:22.130 I did that it turned into two SQ turned into three SQL and one became an actual 516 00:39:22.130 --> 00:39:26.050 customer within three weeks. I'm like, wow, I think I should throw more right 517 00:39:26.050 --> 00:39:30.620 hooks. Like just every once in a while. Like if you're posting multiple times, 518 00:39:30.620 --> 00:39:35.160 I post like nearly every day, at least five times a week. If not seven times 519 00:39:35.160 --> 00:39:38.890 amazing. I'm posting, I'm like once a month I could throw a solid right hook, 520 00:39:38.900 --> 00:39:43.300 but I'm also like, it's one out of like 20 or 30 post, right? But I think you 521 00:39:43.300 --> 00:39:47.440 can say like, hey look, I'm doing, I'm doing consultations, soap. Do you want 522 00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:51.230 to learn about this thing? Let's, let's jump on a show right now or jump on a 523 00:39:51.230 --> 00:39:54.940 phone call and then people DM me and they're like, I'd love to have actually 524 00:39:54.940 --> 00:39:58.960 been thinking about starting a podcast. I'm like, fantastic. Let's tell your 525 00:39:58.970 --> 00:40:02.290 weight the way I do a first sales call. Or if I kick them over to sales, 526 00:40:02.290 --> 00:40:05.280 sometimes I take it myself as a marketer. I like to jump on the sales, 527 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:09.740 see it every once in a while, just just to learn selfishly as a marketer. But 528 00:40:09.740 --> 00:40:13.280 the way we even do sales is very like consultative. Like honestly we will 529 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:16.010 tell you to go down the street to our competitor if we feel like that's a 530 00:40:16.010 --> 00:40:19.410 better fit for you or tell you how to do all of it by yourself. If you're 531 00:40:19.410 --> 00:40:23.610 that kind of like marketing department, do you like to do stuff in house dang? 532 00:40:23.610 --> 00:40:26.390 I will give you the full playbook. So it's like even on that column, like 533 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:30.380 value and I'm like if we want to talk about sweet fish services and prices 534 00:40:30.380 --> 00:40:34.540 and how we can help them. Let's talk about that too. So even when I am 535 00:40:34.540 --> 00:40:37.670 promoting the company, I'm really like I'm trying to get people to start 536 00:40:37.670 --> 00:40:40.980 podcasts really what I'm starting to trying to do anyway, that's the right 537 00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:46.710 way. Well man, this has been very insightful. I want to ask one question 538 00:40:46.710 --> 00:40:50.650 if there's anything I left on the we left on the uh or didn't get on the 539 00:40:50.650 --> 00:40:54.550 table here regarding uh democratizing thought leadership, regarding getting 540 00:40:54.550 --> 00:40:58.200 your employees involved in the thought leadership game out there Anything else 541 00:40:58.200 --> 00:41:01.310 our audience should know about this before I jump into some rapid fire 542 00:41:01.310 --> 00:41:06.470 questions for the end of the interview. Yeah. Just stop being afraid. That's 543 00:41:06.470 --> 00:41:11.980 the secret. Stop being afraid. Nobody remembers failed posts. No one 544 00:41:11.980 --> 00:41:17.900 remembers. You can write 20 failed post. Nobody will, you know, give them and 545 00:41:17.900 --> 00:41:21.310 then you can write one good one and everyone will remember and then you 546 00:41:21.310 --> 00:41:26.470 build your reputation based on that one. Nobody remembers failure. So just keep 547 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:31.280 trying, keep writing True. Oh, that was good dang. If you're listening to this 548 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:35.320 right now, you need to hold if you walk away with 1, 11 gold nugget from this 549 00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:40.580 interview and there was lots that was the one. Just take more swings. No one 550 00:41:40.590 --> 00:41:44.090 if you mess up and you like have a horrible typo in the headline said 551 00:41:44.150 --> 00:41:47.220 nobody's gonna remember tomorrow. It doesn't get the views anyway because 552 00:41:47.220 --> 00:41:52.830 the link, the algorithms gonna bury it. It's all about the winners. Remember 553 00:41:52.830 --> 00:41:56.050 last summer I had a huge winner on on this exact topic, I was like just 554 00:41:56.060 --> 00:42:01.840 volume over. I'm a big proponent of like quantity over quality because 555 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:05.520 quality is kind of subjective anyway. And the way you find the quality post 556 00:42:05.520 --> 00:42:09.130 is just by doing more of them faster and then you'll find out what topics 557 00:42:09.130 --> 00:42:12.420 actually hit and connect in the way they connect and then you can get to 558 00:42:12.420 --> 00:42:16.300 the quality ones faster if you just post more. Of course that's scary as 559 00:42:16.300 --> 00:42:20.080 heck. And it's hard to get your as even from a Ceo's perspective, it's hard to 560 00:42:20.090 --> 00:42:24.330 give all your your boys voices. You know, it's like to have full control. 561 00:42:24.340 --> 00:42:28.480 That's okay. You're right. So have less fear going right more post. So let's 562 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:32.890 jump in some rapid fire questions. I know almost all of these can lead into 563 00:42:32.890 --> 00:42:36.950 like an hour long interview by themselves. But I wanted to do this. 564 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.570 This is something different we're doing for this deep dive is doing these rapid 565 00:42:39.570 --> 00:42:43.220 fires and I thought it would just be fun to be able to compare day to day. 566 00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:47.750 Everyone's different answers. Starting with how do you define thought 567 00:42:47.750 --> 00:42:53.440 leadership? Inspiration? Thought leadership is inspiration. All right. 568 00:42:53.450 --> 00:42:57.890 What's the difference between a real thought leader and a fake one? So we 569 00:42:57.890 --> 00:43:02.690 talked about inspiration. So I think that the differences, promotion when 570 00:43:02.690 --> 00:43:08.130 promotion, you know, sneaks in. It ceases to be thought leadership. I 571 00:43:08.130 --> 00:43:11.310 don't know about fake or real, but promotion is the difference between 572 00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:15.580 thought leadership and non thought leadership. What's the best channel to 573 00:43:15.580 --> 00:43:19.860 promote thought leadership? So that's pretty obvious I think I am for sure 574 00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:24.360 it's linked and forget all the other big business blogs, you know, you know, 575 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:28.230 it's the Tiktok age, you know, it's a Tik tok ra, nobody has time to read 15 576 00:43:28.230 --> 00:43:33.090 minutes uh Prs like a lot of people do, but most of them don't, so you know, 577 00:43:33.090 --> 00:43:36.230 for millennials, you know, and for pretty much the entire world it's 578 00:43:36.230 --> 00:43:41.160 linked and go to Lincoln linked in what is one of the best examples you have 579 00:43:41.160 --> 00:43:46.500 seen of thought leadership. I think if we're talking about, let's, I don't 580 00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:49.650 want to talk about about the app store because I have a lot of examples from 581 00:43:49.710 --> 00:43:56.750 100 people, but I think Dave girt heart and chris walker from me like really 582 00:43:56.750 --> 00:44:01.200 resonate with, with, with what thought dealership is all about. Dave Gerhard 583 00:44:01.200 --> 00:44:07.440 can write thought leadership pieces with two lines, you know, but I don't 584 00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:12.460 know 100 characters and creeks walker usually tends to go much, much, much 585 00:44:12.460 --> 00:44:17.120 longer and include a video, but he's so passionate about what he does and you 586 00:44:17.120 --> 00:44:22.700 can spot it, he talks about it and he attacks the same topic from very 587 00:44:22.710 --> 00:44:28.670 different angles and it resonates it really works out. So for me, those are 588 00:44:28.670 --> 00:44:34.140 very to exam, very good examples of real good thought to use so we have, 589 00:44:34.150 --> 00:44:36.590 there's gonna be a lot of overlap in this next question because you've 590 00:44:36.590 --> 00:44:39.380 already answered some of it, but what do all real thought leaders have in 591 00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:39.720 common? 592 00:44:40.790 --> 00:44:46.580 So again, the real answer is passion for what they do and passion that you 593 00:44:46.580 --> 00:44:52.160 can feel and see really this is the secret like good writing and passion 594 00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:58.290 won't get you far in thought leadership, absolutely good writing and passion. I 595 00:44:58.290 --> 00:45:03.320 love it. Well Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me on this BTB growth 596 00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:07.410 show today. If people want to learn more about these ideas, I'm gonna learn 597 00:45:07.410 --> 00:45:10.920 more from you and about apps, fire, where can they go online to learn more? 598 00:45:11.590 --> 00:45:16.000 Just hit me up on linkedin, you know Jonathan Rivette, there's only one 599 00:45:16.030 --> 00:45:21.590 party leadership guy on F Slur, so just hit me up. Fantastic. Thanks again so 600 00:45:21.590 --> 00:45:25.410 much for joining me today dude, that was great, awesome. Thank you 601 00:45:27.490 --> 00:45:31.850 Is the decision maker for your product or service at VTB marketer, Are you 602 00:45:31.850 --> 00:45:36.020 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered 603 00:45:36.020 --> 00:45:41.190 becoming a co host of BB growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top 604 00:45:41.190 --> 00:45:45.310 100 podcast in the marketing category of apple Podcasts and the show gets 605 00:45:45.310 --> 00:45:50.350 more than a 100 and 30,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work 606 00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:54.520 of building the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content 607 00:45:54.530 --> 00:46:00.110 to our listeners. If you're interested, email Logan at Sweet Fish Media dot com. 608 00:46:00.890 --> 00:46:02.590 Yeah.