Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.540 --> 00:00:11.490 There's so many founders I've seen focused on the wrong things at first, 2 00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:17.220 and then they end up dying because they don't sell anything. Welcome to the 3 00:00:17.220 --> 00:00:22.250 revenue Siris on B two B growth. I'm your host John Gris, spin founder and 4 00:00:22.250 --> 00:00:27.620 sales coach at Early Revenue. Happy New Year to everyone and with the New Year 5 00:00:27.630 --> 00:00:33.640 been looking forward to this one for quite some time Today I am here with 6 00:00:33.650 --> 00:00:39.870 Jim Everland. Welcome, Jim. Hey, John. Thanks for having me. So, Jim, 7 00:00:39.870 --> 00:00:44.650 wonderful to have you here. You are currently the founder and CEO of Top 8 00:00:44.660 --> 00:00:51.340 Ops. But you are also a serial entrepreneur. And one of your very 9 00:00:51.340 --> 00:00:56.050 interesting and certainly most recent successes has to do with where you were 10 00:00:56.050 --> 00:01:03.350 a previous co founder and previous CEO of gain sites. So wonderful. 11 00:01:03.350 --> 00:01:07.260 Congratulations. Why don't you tell us about what happened there? My wife says 12 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:13.280 I have that affliction of starting up company. So, uh, but anyway, yeah, Yeah. 13 00:01:13.290 --> 00:01:18.100 Game site had a really good exit here. That ship came in, although it's still 14 00:01:18.100 --> 00:01:24.390 going for a lot of people. But it was It was great. It was acquired by missed 15 00:01:24.390 --> 00:01:30.040 equity partners for roughly about $1.1 billion. So it was really, really 16 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:35.160 exciting to see that exciting to see game side where it is. Is the market 17 00:01:35.160 --> 00:01:39.980 leader in a brand new market customer success. It's fantastic. 18 00:01:39.980 --> 00:01:44.310 Congratulations. Very rarely do we see unicorns that have originated from the 19 00:01:44.310 --> 00:01:50.970 Midwest, in particular ST Louis, right. Chairs for ST Louis. So we're gonna get 20 00:01:50.970 --> 00:01:54.300 into all of this, and I just wanna level cited for everybody here. So our 21 00:01:54.300 --> 00:02:00.350 goal is toe share insights and best practices with early stage tech 22 00:02:00.350 --> 00:02:05.400 founders on two topics that are top of mind, right, growing early stage sales 23 00:02:05.410 --> 00:02:10.650 and fundraising to things that you know, You your superhero for lots of us out 24 00:02:10.650 --> 00:02:14.840 there. So So. Thanks for being here today. Why don't you first of all, just 25 00:02:14.850 --> 00:02:19.930 take us back to the origins? Your initial startup? You've got three to 26 00:02:19.930 --> 00:02:24.720 talk about here. So there's plenty of space talk about how you started your 27 00:02:24.730 --> 00:02:29.690 your first host analytics. And then and then how you got to gain site? Yeah. 28 00:02:29.700 --> 00:02:34.260 Don't tell me stories. So Host Analytics came from where I had a 29 00:02:34.260 --> 00:02:40.190 consulting background where we did, you know, implementations of Ah, a product 30 00:02:40.190 --> 00:02:46.480 called Hyperion. And what we did with Host analytics is that we It was the 31 00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:53.180 very first product for SAS, and back when it started, we didn't call it SAS. 32 00:02:53.180 --> 00:02:58.830 I think it was a SPS was what they called it back then. But eventually 33 00:02:58.830 --> 00:03:04.630 they started calling Cloud and then SAS. So this is roughly what times what 34 00:03:04.630 --> 00:03:09.100 dates were talking thousands right around 2000. And I started host 35 00:03:09.100 --> 00:03:15.940 analytics with my dear friend Shredder Panetti, who has been with me. He's he 36 00:03:15.940 --> 00:03:21.860 was a great And so, as you know, in any startup, it's good to have a good team, 37 00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:28.070 and it was really good Street and I had good offsetting leadership. And so we 38 00:03:28.070 --> 00:03:32.920 worked well together, and I've got a lot of that now with my current 39 00:03:32.930 --> 00:03:37.350 teammate. I've got a lot of good. Hateley went out the team members there, 40 00:03:37.350 --> 00:03:40.860 but it was very, very similar to what I have now with the ship to the booty, 41 00:03:40.860 --> 00:03:47.100 who's our CEO and had a product here in top ups. But yeah, that was so I 42 00:03:47.100 --> 00:03:53.420 started that I started both host analytics and game site here in ST 43 00:03:53.420 --> 00:04:00.120 Louis with shredder. Fantastic. So talk a little bit about since the there's 44 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.540 lots of news out there about the success that you've had with gain site 45 00:04:03.550 --> 00:04:08.390 talk a little bit. Take us back to early days. Um, as you were starting at, 46 00:04:08.390 --> 00:04:12.320 what was the concept? How did you come up with the original concept? This is 47 00:04:12.330 --> 00:04:22.310 this is 09 right. This is e 09 e s o. I was still part of most analytics, and 48 00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:30.560 but what I did with Host Analytics, eso each of my startups, the recipe changed 49 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:37.220 a little bit. So post analytics was a transformation of an existing market. 50 00:04:37.230 --> 00:04:44.560 So the the big gorilla in the market was a company called Hyperion, which 51 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:50.660 was acquired by by Oracle. So it host analytics What we ended up doing after 52 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:55.960 Oracle acquired Hyperion, we brought in the senior management of Hyperion some, 53 00:04:55.970 --> 00:05:00.800 you know, big billion dollar plus company. And we brought in the senior 54 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:06.870 management that grew Hyperion and a high period so successful. And so it 55 00:05:06.870 --> 00:05:14.190 started with that. And so I took the chief customer officer job s so that we 56 00:05:14.190 --> 00:05:18.260 could have the, you know, the this new management and I worked alongside of 57 00:05:18.260 --> 00:05:22.740 that management team. Actually, for three years. But once I took that she 58 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:27.960 customer officer's job, the itch started coming back a little bit. Thio. 59 00:05:28.540 --> 00:05:36.090 Once I started seeing that we this new evolving need and sales companies, we 60 00:05:36.090 --> 00:05:40.970 had to get the customer back every year because we did. We were subscription 61 00:05:40.970 --> 00:05:46.010 based, so I saw the need and the and the evolution in the starting of this 62 00:05:46.010 --> 00:05:50.530 customer success. So I was right there. When customers successful, even to the 63 00:05:50.530 --> 00:05:54.020 state, there's still people to go. What is customer success? But it's much more 64 00:05:54.020 --> 00:05:59.500 familiar now than what it waas back in the back when, you know, we were 65 00:05:59.500 --> 00:06:07.440 getting this really rolling with sass companies. And so I saw the potential, 66 00:06:07.450 --> 00:06:11.160 and I was there early on with everyone else that was starting a customer 67 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:20.060 success, uh, team inside of their SAS company. So I saw that need and, um, 68 00:06:20.070 --> 00:06:25.480 eventually I left Toast Analytics to get game site going back. Then we 69 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:30.750 called it J. Barras Software, and then we hired a company to come up with the 70 00:06:30.750 --> 00:06:34.770 new name of game site. Even Host analytics did the same thing just this 71 00:06:34.770 --> 00:06:40.580 past year. They renamed themselves plans, though, so Yeah. So, you know, 72 00:06:40.580 --> 00:06:44.840 and host Analytics. We ended up, You know, I remained on the board for a 73 00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:49.650 while, but both posting the next game. I remained on the board for a while 74 00:06:49.650 --> 00:06:55.480 after I started the next company. You know, after a while, I kind of, you 75 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:00.100 know, I just kind of drawn into my existing company more than but so I 76 00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:06.990 ended up leaving the board. But anyway, that the you know, the customer success 77 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:14.020 market was it was a tough thing early on, it's a brand new market. You know, 78 00:07:14.020 --> 00:07:19.970 Host Analytics was a transformation of an existing financial market. Yep. And 79 00:07:19.970 --> 00:07:25.360 then game site was a brand new mark. So what I did to get game site going 80 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:28.720 because this market is going to cost a lot of money and start to realize it's 81 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:35.340 going to cost a lot of money to educate the targeting cos I was going after and 82 00:07:35.340 --> 00:07:39.140 so, you know, host Analytics. We raised a bunch of money, but we I didn't Gates. 83 00:07:39.140 --> 00:07:46.230 I was going to require a lot more and s. So what I did is I drove up and down 84 00:07:46.230 --> 00:07:52.940 Highway 101 in the Bay Area full to the very best SAS companies out there Who's 85 00:07:52.940 --> 00:07:59.650 who had Marcato and it. Gramatica. I had doc you side I had all this seems 86 00:07:59.650 --> 00:08:09.420 to, uh, top SAS companies. And then I was ableto raise an a round with 87 00:08:09.430 --> 00:08:14.380 battery ventures. Roger Lee had done a thesis on this market, and, you know, 88 00:08:14.380 --> 00:08:19.120 it's kind of funny, cause I I went to other investors and, you know, they 89 00:08:19.130 --> 00:08:23.610 just they're like, Well, a lot of these fast cos they're kind of small. This is 90 00:08:23.610 --> 00:08:30.970 back in, you know, 2011 and so, you know, they're like, they just didn't 91 00:08:30.970 --> 00:08:37.820 see it, but Roger spotted it right on. And we did a deal. It's kind of funny 92 00:08:37.830 --> 00:08:42.590 right before that, you know? So, you know, we just sold game side, sold for 93 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:49.170 1.1 billion. I almost sold name site for $8 million right? Forever. He said 94 00:08:49.180 --> 00:08:56.140 it would have been my you know, the smartest decision financial decision 95 00:08:56.140 --> 00:09:01.480 you've ever made. Perhaps. Yeah, my wife way could get a quick exit, and 96 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:07.450 it's like, Wait, do the next thing or something. But, uh, fortunately, worked 97 00:09:07.450 --> 00:09:14.410 out to where, uh, talked to Roger. We saw we saw the potential and, you know, 98 00:09:14.420 --> 00:09:20.380 getting Ah, nice. BC firm like battery behind you and enough, you know, we're 99 00:09:20.380 --> 00:09:24.870 able to get more and more, You know, top tier venture capital firms after 100 00:09:24.870 --> 00:09:30.680 that. Let me ask you a question, then. So early days, you're sort of saw the 101 00:09:30.680 --> 00:09:35.740 whole idea of customer success, the need to focus on renewal and expansion. 102 00:09:35.740 --> 00:09:38.980 You saw that in the early days, as early as 09 Before it was really even a 103 00:09:38.980 --> 00:09:43.270 thing of itself. It was defined category. You started to develop a 104 00:09:43.270 --> 00:09:48.760 product, you broke off. You were founder, CEO, co founder of this 105 00:09:48.760 --> 00:09:53.010 company. And since you were chief customer officer in the previous, so 106 00:09:53.010 --> 00:09:56.560 you probably knew something about sales. Does that mean that you were founder? 107 00:09:56.560 --> 00:10:03.420 Led for a bit in terms of selling? I've always I've always been, uh, on my life 108 00:10:03.430 --> 00:10:08.000 and so, you know, because you get you look at what's the characteristics of a 109 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:14.520 good founder and and I used to always here you got a cold, and I like That's 110 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:17.420 what shredder was for right I had. That's why it's good to have your co 111 00:10:17.420 --> 00:10:21.530 founder right? I think it's good to have, you know, the the sales and 112 00:10:21.530 --> 00:10:29.300 marketing side and but also someone that can really dig into the product to 113 00:10:29.300 --> 00:10:33.770 make sure your product market fit, because that's like bring it on. Sales 114 00:10:33.780 --> 00:10:38.250 is a tricky thing, you know? When do you bring on the first rep when you 115 00:10:38.640 --> 00:10:43.950 bring on a sales leader and and none of these things John, Are is there an 116 00:10:43.950 --> 00:10:48.910 exact recipe? You know, you know, Post analytics game site, you know, plan for 117 00:10:48.920 --> 00:10:55.760 post game site now, top ups. All three are distinctly different in the 118 00:10:55.760 --> 00:11:03.740 strategy. So for forgetting sales going even after I raised the A round with 119 00:11:04.140 --> 00:11:10.570 yeah, with game site, there was a lot of work, you know, I had I've had, like, 120 00:11:10.580 --> 00:11:17.530 15. I had the top SAS companies out there. I felt like 15, but what I did, 121 00:11:17.540 --> 00:11:22.370 you know, it's kind of like coaching right doing you. Either you make a you 122 00:11:22.380 --> 00:11:27.850 run a play and you're either an idiot or a jeep, right? And, uh, and so I 123 00:11:27.850 --> 00:11:34.600 hired on the former VP of customers success for Marquita. It's kind of a 124 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:40.360 funny story there, related with a great find, but yeah, I mean it's the bottom 125 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:45.970 line is that we helped, obviously having in. And he's, you know, back 126 00:11:45.970 --> 00:11:51.050 then, especially Marquitos it. Man, if you were absolutely you had done your 127 00:11:51.050 --> 00:11:57.500 resume. If you head of is a customer, they were it. They're still quite 128 00:11:57.500 --> 00:12:00.980 popular. But I was saying like that then they were just on this unicorn 129 00:12:00.980 --> 00:12:06.230 trajectory and they were all, you know, everything they were everybody compared, 130 00:12:06.230 --> 00:12:12.110 compared themselves there. And, um but so I hired the former VP of customer 131 00:12:12.110 --> 00:12:18.370 success for Marcato and he took the ball and really ran with it. I 132 00:12:18.370 --> 00:12:23.660 basically presented one of all these top accounts and, you know, they 133 00:12:23.670 --> 00:12:30.990 everybody bought on and so that deep domain knowledge and being able to come 134 00:12:30.990 --> 00:12:34.940 to these customers and they look thio dance and dance journals. They looked 135 00:12:34.940 --> 00:12:39.430 at him and say, Please help us with this because churn is a big you know, 136 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.710 Everybody was recognizing that especially in the SAS world, how big a 137 00:12:43.710 --> 00:12:48.760 deal that Waas and then the metrics were about me and I could really feel 138 00:12:48.760 --> 00:12:52.340 those metrics, those air, those air really important metrics. They really, 139 00:12:52.350 --> 00:12:56.940 really do matter in reducing churn and all the related metrics that go with 140 00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:04.650 that are? Yes, Absolutely. So you've got just stop you there and and 141 00:13:04.650 --> 00:13:08.730 backtrack a little bit. You said you had 10 or 15 of the tops. You went down 142 00:13:08.740 --> 00:13:13.260 the highway and just sort of knocked on everybody's door. That sounds like that 143 00:13:13.260 --> 00:13:17.960 was you and only you doing that knocking, saying I got something here. 144 00:13:17.970 --> 00:13:21.360 So there was something that spoke to them, and you were enough of, ah, 145 00:13:21.370 --> 00:13:25.530 literate sales person to know how to manage the sales cycle for a good sized 146 00:13:25.530 --> 00:13:30.380 task organization. Yeah, So I used my sales background of just getting into 147 00:13:30.390 --> 00:13:35.750 accounts of focusing on account like nowadays. It's all about personalizing 148 00:13:35.740 --> 00:13:41.750 for accounts to get in there. Right? So So that's what I did. And Andi I used I 149 00:13:41.750 --> 00:13:46.520 flash my badge and chief customer officer Post analysts, you know, and 150 00:13:46.520 --> 00:13:51.100 that usually would give me a meeting with whoever is in charge of customer 151 00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:55.750 success. And and back then, there were very few companies that officially had 152 00:13:55.750 --> 00:14:02.000 a customer success. It was right, uh, less cloudy. Fewer competitors? 153 00:14:02.010 --> 00:14:06.180 Absolutely. All of that. Yeah, There was one other competitors er where they 154 00:14:06.180 --> 00:14:11.490 had already raised their a round and, you know, this one was still, you know, 155 00:14:11.490 --> 00:14:15.760 my ship hadn't come in for Host Analytics, So I was still doing alone 156 00:14:15.760 --> 00:14:22.610 on my house to get this going s Oh, yeah. So I was able to get these 157 00:14:22.610 --> 00:14:28.910 companies, and especially when I got marcato that got the attention of Roger 158 00:14:28.910 --> 00:14:33.140 Lee from Battery Ventures. And then when he saw that I had the b p a 159 00:14:33.140 --> 00:14:38.330 customer success with me that there was no brainer, he invested. And then from 160 00:14:38.330 --> 00:14:46.700 there it was, you know, the milestones to grow initially was Let's stay narrow, 161 00:14:46.700 --> 00:14:52.960 focus on what matter, you know, the more you can simplify things, the more 162 00:14:52.960 --> 00:15:01.600 narrow you focus, the better. And that matters mawr in like in top box, where 163 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:07.480 we're being very, very efficient with the capital with gain site. The goal 164 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:12.340 was to continue to raise because we're developing market, right? It was a 165 00:15:12.350 --> 00:15:18.930 category. Mm. And so we had to raise a lot of money and and you and one of the 166 00:15:18.930 --> 00:15:21.460 things that you assessed along the way was that this is gonna take a little 167 00:15:21.460 --> 00:15:24.610 longer to do because you had to do a lot of educating. So the sale cycle was 168 00:15:24.610 --> 00:15:28.860 gonna be a little bit longer with these large organizations. Yeah, definitely 169 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:33.860 so that, you know. And once we got Roger Lee, Roger Lee was brilliant and, 170 00:15:33.870 --> 00:15:37.690 you know, a strategy to move forward. Nick was a great guy. We brought on 171 00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:44.190 neck and he was a great guy. Thio lead us in that. And so that's why he's 172 00:15:44.190 --> 00:15:50.240 still there today. So So he's done a really good job. And my my buddy 173 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:53.710 shredder, he stayed on for quite a while. He just recently started a 174 00:15:53.710 --> 00:15:59.890 company. He just he just left game site and started a company. But yeah, I e 175 00:15:59.900 --> 00:16:04.550 remember having dinner with shredder, convincing him. So I got him from host 176 00:16:04.550 --> 00:16:09.730 Analytics. He did host analytics and then I convinced him, toe help me and 177 00:16:09.730 --> 00:16:15.110 getting game site going and eso part So part of it, you know, if if there's a 178 00:16:15.110 --> 00:16:20.640 theme here, one of the themes is identifying people that you trust 179 00:16:20.650 --> 00:16:26.380 important smart hires that that have that that could influence the direction 180 00:16:26.380 --> 00:16:30.900 of the company and could help open doors. Ah, lot of times people think 181 00:16:30.910 --> 00:16:34.650 that you know when, especially when it comes toe their early hires that they 182 00:16:34.650 --> 00:16:38.170 wanna bring on. Um, you know, high powered sales person that worked at 183 00:16:38.170 --> 00:16:42.560 Oracle or any of those other s A P s right. And sometimes they work and 184 00:16:42.560 --> 00:16:47.910 sometimes they don't. And oftentimes you're gonna wanna hire folks that are 185 00:16:47.920 --> 00:16:51.770 willing to pick up, you know, a shovel and do some work, do some digging. 186 00:16:51.780 --> 00:16:54.990 Other times you wanna pick up, you wanna have someone that's smart on 187 00:16:54.990 --> 00:16:59.220 strategy or has you know this great industry influence or great awareness 188 00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:04.930 and knowledge and can really talk to. And I understand customer problems and 189 00:17:04.930 --> 00:17:10.680 how to solve those in front of the customer? Absolutely. You know, you're 190 00:17:11.040 --> 00:17:15.430 when you're first starting out, you always got to keep your eyes on three 191 00:17:15.430 --> 00:17:19.430 things. And this is what I've done with all three companies is understanding 192 00:17:19.430 --> 00:17:23.319 the category you're in. So again, game site was brand new category, so it's 193 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:29.750 gonna be expensive to develop and take a while. Where Host analytics was a 194 00:17:29.750 --> 00:17:35.110 transformation of existing market and now top pops is a transformation. So 195 00:17:35.110 --> 00:17:42.030 top ups is a a combination of AI and sales automation help sales leaders and 196 00:17:42.030 --> 00:17:50.420 sales ops leaders Thio, manage, analyze sales, managing sales and analyze sales 197 00:17:50.430 --> 00:17:56.340 and ultimately, forecasts better. And you know that to date was done with 198 00:17:56.340 --> 00:18:02.560 your start off with your CRM and your B I tool. And now with products like us, 199 00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:07.810 which way actually call ourselves revenue engine, you know, solutions for 200 00:18:07.820 --> 00:18:13.720 visibility into the entire revenue edge. So that's what we're doing now. As far 201 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:19.700 as transforming the market top pops and you know, essentially it results in 202 00:18:19.710 --> 00:18:23.660 sales teams selling their their increasing their win rates. And they're 203 00:18:23.660 --> 00:18:30.350 selling deals faster because it's keeping processes consistent and it z 204 00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:36.000 making sure high quality data and reducing the admin involved with that. 205 00:18:36.010 --> 00:18:39.170 So back to your three things right, The first one was that was understand the 206 00:18:39.170 --> 00:18:42.490 category that you're working in. Yeah, I understand the category you're 207 00:18:42.490 --> 00:18:49.450 working in then to create your unfair advantage. And so the unfair advantage 208 00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:55.720 is not like, Oh, well, my product as a I and there's has, like, worse ai or 209 00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:01.180 something that some is. That's a lofty thing you can't get your arms around 210 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:08.220 with, you know, Host Analytics we were. It was the fact that we were cloud 211 00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:14.270 based versus on premise solution. So we competed against Hyperion. It was 212 00:19:14.270 --> 00:19:20.340 really sick. I mean, it was so clear that we could implement quicker for and 213 00:19:20.350 --> 00:19:24.760 then a lower cost. You know, he is super clear. It wasn't just this, uh, 214 00:19:25.140 --> 00:19:30.340 my word against someone. I mean, it's like, you know, e it was so drastically 215 00:19:30.350 --> 00:19:35.350 different. It was it was definitely are unfair advantage that had and it's how 216 00:19:35.350 --> 00:19:38.990 we can, you know, his little little tiny host analytics versus a billion 217 00:19:38.990 --> 00:19:43.590 dollar. Plus. You know, Hyperion, How did you win those deals? You have to 218 00:19:43.590 --> 00:19:46.920 come in with something that you know what I mean. It's like gotta have 219 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:51.950 impact. It's gotta be truly an unfair advantage. Something Hyperion just 220 00:19:51.950 --> 00:19:55.860 can't. They can't change it, right. They were on premise song, right? And 221 00:19:55.860 --> 00:19:59.010 to the market out there on premise, especially the younger folks out there 222 00:19:59.010 --> 00:20:05.270 on premise. You know, back in the old days, it was like a computer and, uh on 223 00:20:05.270 --> 00:20:09.930 side. So I understand your category create unfair advantage. And its third 224 00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:17.100 thing is customer adoption. So it's a really focus on the experience you have 225 00:20:17.100 --> 00:20:21.900 tow. You know, one of the key metrics you gotta look at is your SP your 226 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:28.280 average selling price and depending on what that is, is how much of an 227 00:20:28.280 --> 00:20:32.960 implementation. You You've got a big SP if you're selling a you know, you know, 228 00:20:32.970 --> 00:20:38.360 like actually host analytics could afford. You know, even though we did, 229 00:20:38.360 --> 00:20:41.830 we were much quicker because we're SAS. We could afford a little bit of an 230 00:20:41.830 --> 00:20:47.250 implementation because we were, you know, figure transactions. And you know 231 00:20:47.250 --> 00:20:50.530 something with game site that was like, you know, generally a bigger 232 00:20:50.530 --> 00:20:55.110 transactions. And so you have to look at that because if you got smaller 233 00:20:55.110 --> 00:20:58.970 transactions and it's a long self, you know, implementation is gonna kill you. 234 00:20:59.540 --> 00:21:03.690 So what's your common sense to it? But if you get more scientific from there, 235 00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:08.890 but you really gotta track time to value. So so again, 23 things know the 236 00:21:08.890 --> 00:21:13.870 category, unfair advantage and in customer adoption, like that's whatever 237 00:21:13.870 --> 00:21:19.450 you start ups gotta be focused on sales is gonna come along there. But you 238 00:21:19.450 --> 00:21:25.500 really gotta focus on that, because I will tell you that at Top Pops, we 239 00:21:25.510 --> 00:21:31.840 tried to do too many things too quickly and run some things in parallel where I 240 00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:36.550 should have spent more time on the customer adoption, you know? So, you 241 00:21:36.550 --> 00:21:40.160 know, you might call it, like, product market fit or something like that. What 242 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:44.220 were you trying to do that was too quick? Revenue keep the revenue going. 243 00:21:44.230 --> 00:21:51.620 So I had to do three companies to finally for this third time's a charm 244 00:21:51.630 --> 00:22:00.020 eso. But it was, you know, So I on the third one here, top ups I started off 245 00:22:00.020 --> 00:22:03.560 with thought that well, I'm gonna go raise a bunch of money like we did with 246 00:22:03.560 --> 00:22:08.690 post analytics and game side. You know, Post, we raised 100 million games games 247 00:22:08.690 --> 00:22:13.750 side of, you know, ended up are 2200 million. But I thought I was going to 248 00:22:13.750 --> 00:22:19.360 the same thing with top pops, and the market just changed for me a bit. You 249 00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:22.920 know, the dinette. You gotta have everything going for you. You know, it 250 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:31.800 was, you know, in Host Analytics. I had 62 customers at the time. I raised my 251 00:22:31.810 --> 00:22:37.460 around and my competition. I was neck and neck with my competition who 252 00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:43.660 already raised $20 million and really helped develop the mark. Even though I 253 00:22:43.660 --> 00:22:49.680 was there, actually kind of before them they established to the Bay area VC 254 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.810 community that there was a market. Your SAS based, you know, financial planning. 255 00:22:53.820 --> 00:23:00.380 Yeah, for business. So, you know, again, thing's gonna work. I ended up talking 256 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:04.660 to an investment banker. Was JMP Securities to help. He grew up in not 257 00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:09.520 burning with Cardinal Fan and all that. So we hit it off, and he introduced me 258 00:23:09.520 --> 00:23:13.900 into some, you know, because I was Jim from ST Louis, you know? And so it was 259 00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:18.630 funny when I was doing one of my venture pitches that he introduced me 260 00:23:18.630 --> 00:23:24.590 to this investment baker. He's like, Jim, you're from ST Louis is because I 261 00:23:24.590 --> 00:23:29.480 had to, like, just take this meeting. I was just curious. Like I think it was 262 00:23:29.490 --> 00:23:36.980 for fear, You know, e here in baseball. Yeah, but actually, he was He was a 263 00:23:36.980 --> 00:23:42.290 nice guy, but he didn't. He was just kind of like I very rarely drive out 264 00:23:42.290 --> 00:23:49.970 Thio the East Bay, you know? So I'm not gonna be Oh, but I was able to I ended 265 00:23:49.970 --> 00:23:54.970 up finding an investor. It's like anything if you just keep working and 266 00:23:54.980 --> 00:23:59.620 keep, you know, keep striving, you'll get you'll get because I I got a lot of 267 00:23:59.620 --> 00:24:06.340 nose. And I finally found to investors that we're willing to co invest and get 268 00:24:06.350 --> 00:24:09.770 host analytics going because it was that they saw, like, it was a big deal, 269 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.600 you know, in that adapt, the my competitors at the time, you know they 270 00:24:14.610 --> 00:24:19.310 wouldn't be getting is going to deal with that 40 raise $20 million. So, out 271 00:24:19.310 --> 00:24:24.270 of curiosity and what were the what was the average sales price of for host and 272 00:24:24.280 --> 00:24:27.830 and for gain site? What? What? You're talking six figures here, right? Yeah. 273 00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:34.750 Typically, host analytics was, you know, by the time I was raising my around, 274 00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:38.150 you know, they were they were like they couldn't believe we were getting, you 275 00:24:38.150 --> 00:24:47.890 know, $100,000 a r r for deals. We get way, I'd say 50 to 150. Plus, we have 276 00:24:47.890 --> 00:24:53.290 services piece professional services piece to it. But I was competing 277 00:24:53.290 --> 00:24:56.770 against Hyperion, which would be an automatic, like two or three million. 278 00:24:56.780 --> 00:25:02.680 You know, compared to that, it's one time big c. You know, I had eventually 279 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:07.530 everybody saw all the advantage eso that's baked that was baked into The 280 00:25:07.530 --> 00:25:11.130 whole thing is that you could charge that price because you were You were in 281 00:25:11.130 --> 00:25:16.030 a completely different category in terms of how they were expensing it, 282 00:25:16.040 --> 00:25:21.640 right? Yes. And then in game site were, you know, a to first I you know, I did 283 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:28.870 market penetration pricing, which, you know, I was, you know, like 50,000. Are 284 00:25:28.870 --> 00:25:33.030 are somebody even less than half. But eventually we were able to prove and 285 00:25:33.030 --> 00:25:37.710 are alive with the bigger the bigger SAS companies to where we could, you 286 00:25:37.710 --> 00:25:43.510 know, show like, Okay, we're going to reduce churn by this much, and that's 287 00:25:43.510 --> 00:25:47.670 gonna sing you, you know, potentially millions of dollars. They was able to 288 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:54.460 were able to get bigger transactions there. And with with top ups, we have a 289 00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:59.240 range we have, like, you know, we have customers now that are, like, you know, 290 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:04.670 bigger 500 sales reps. And then we see the, you know, the are like comes in 291 00:26:04.670 --> 00:26:10.550 that deals will close quicker with us. We have empirical data to show that, 292 00:26:10.940 --> 00:26:15.260 and then their win rates will go up. So we got terrible data for that. And then 293 00:26:15.260 --> 00:26:20.610 we it just being more predictable with how we forecast everybody sees the 294 00:26:20.610 --> 00:26:25.050 advantage. You know No. I first discovered this problem going in front 295 00:26:25.050 --> 00:26:29.900 of my board with game site Coast Analytics showing displaying all the 296 00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:33.430 deals I was going to close and then hearing from the reps later that you 297 00:26:33.430 --> 00:26:39.380 know, dark or, you know, just went south or whatever, so that everybody 298 00:26:39.380 --> 00:26:43.350 sees the pain of forecast sales forecasting. If you're saying your 299 00:26:43.350 --> 00:26:50.180 sales oxy eso I've got, you know, it's it's like how much pain can you? It's 300 00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:57.790 the that level of pain and is will offset your transaction price. So your 301 00:26:57.800 --> 00:27:04.070 S P is a big deal. And, you know, a lot of companies can and, uh, do it with, 302 00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:08.010 you know, to make a good business with a smaller SP. It's just got to do a lot 303 00:27:08.010 --> 00:27:13.610 more. You got a good marketing, and it's also how you assess your revenue 304 00:27:13.610 --> 00:27:17.630 injured, like I have big enough transactions that I could afford an str 305 00:27:17.630 --> 00:27:22.990 t. So anyway, that's you know, this all kind of goes into it because I would 306 00:27:22.990 --> 00:27:28.390 say the key metrics, you should look at pretty much all the time, like I don't 307 00:27:28.390 --> 00:27:35.230 think it's you know, you could do this pretty early on and you know, like I 308 00:27:35.230 --> 00:27:39.870 mentioned, it's a SP average selling price, because that's going to tell you, 309 00:27:40.540 --> 00:27:44.650 You know, your whole company is going to revolve around that, right? You 310 00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:48.610 should zero in on right. You shouldn't be. You know, you got especially early 311 00:27:48.610 --> 00:27:52.910 on if you got small deals and big deals and all that I always like. You know, I 312 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:59.260 segment the market into the rabbits, the deer and the elements, and I think 313 00:27:59.270 --> 00:28:05.370 early on, you should be selling dear. At least I'm more comfortable with that. 314 00:28:05.380 --> 00:28:08.860 You could sell Ram. It's if you're, like a marketing with, so you can draw 315 00:28:08.860 --> 00:28:14.030 people in. Amen. But then if you go after elephants, I think too early. I 316 00:28:14.040 --> 00:28:19.300 had, you know, BCS, you know, trying. You know, they're they're coming in 317 00:28:19.300 --> 00:28:26.440 from the old days, you know, when you wear big transactions. Yeah, right. And, 318 00:28:26.450 --> 00:28:32.210 uh, it just absorbs too much time and energy. Thio. And then, if you you know, 319 00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:37.220 it's, you know, one out of 41 out of five. Hit. That's just not enough in 320 00:28:37.220 --> 00:28:43.620 that early, very early stage that it happened to kill deals, right to slow 321 00:28:43.620 --> 00:28:48.270 him up. Where if you go to deer. Those people are. I call it closer to the 322 00:28:48.270 --> 00:28:53.940 money right there. They you know, they can see the return and the advantages 323 00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:59.200 and make a decision. And so, you know, in deer or typically, you know, like 324 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:05.530 above 10,000 are are maybe, you know, up to 30,000 are are so and then, of 325 00:29:05.530 --> 00:29:09.890 course, it gets bigger and bigger from there. And then you can start focusing 326 00:29:09.890 --> 00:29:15.680 on your elefant game as you grow from there. That's how you let me ask you a 327 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.950 question about that. So because you were close to product and you were 328 00:29:18.950 --> 00:29:23.070 sorting having to juggle being CEO, you're having toe juggle product and 329 00:29:23.070 --> 00:29:29.510 investors and and sales can the same product that you sell thio rabbits and 330 00:29:29.510 --> 00:29:35.660 deer be sold. Elephants. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, it is Obviously, if you're 331 00:29:35.660 --> 00:29:40.870 selling a lot of deer, you're not. It's kind of unknown if you've got the 332 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:45.790 scalability Thio work without so So that's another dimension to it. And why 333 00:29:45.790 --> 00:29:49.380 you need to be careful before you start selling elephants. Because there's a 334 00:29:49.380 --> 00:29:54.670 lot of things you know you got like now, now for for all three companies, you 335 00:29:54.670 --> 00:29:58.040 know, we've you know the stock to compliance on this purity and 336 00:29:58.040 --> 00:30:03.970 availability. All these things that GDP are all these things that you know now 337 00:30:03.970 --> 00:30:09.360 I can afford it, you know, Tech Ops, Dev Ops Team Thio, take care of these 338 00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:14.090 kind of things you can't afford earlier on a startup. You're just getting out 339 00:30:14.090 --> 00:30:19.060 of the gate. You know, that's that's another more advice that that comes up 340 00:30:19.060 --> 00:30:24.940 like there's so many founders I've seen focused on the wrong things at first, 341 00:30:24.950 --> 00:30:29.090 and then they end up dying because they don't sell anything, you know? But they 342 00:30:29.090 --> 00:30:35.050 focus in on things that are important, right? You know, you've got trademarks. 343 00:30:35.050 --> 00:30:38.770 And all this time, you know, all this kind of things you gotta worry about 344 00:30:38.770 --> 00:30:45.670 with product, but you don't get out. So first, you're not gonna You know what? 345 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:52.180 What about that s open the product scales that the challenges Yes, s a lot 346 00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:56.110 of times the product of skill, because you're you're sas, right? So it's It's 347 00:30:56.110 --> 00:31:00.020 the processes it's Do you have enough salespeople? Do you have enough people 348 00:31:00.020 --> 00:31:04.070 supporting the sales people? You have sales ops ready for that sort of 349 00:31:04.070 --> 00:31:07.880 scaling, right? Lots of organizations are trying to figure out if I'm selling 350 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:13.140 dear. How do I scale up? How do I do that? And I think that sales ups piece 351 00:31:13.150 --> 00:31:19.550 or, you know, prepping the organization for the onslaught that is coming once 352 00:31:19.550 --> 00:31:23.660 they become a customer, right, That ends up being an incredibly important 353 00:31:23.660 --> 00:31:27.970 piece. Because the last thing you want for an elephant to turn yeah. Oh, yeah, 354 00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:34.450 Absolutely. And that's why I like, you know, back to the metrics it zey sp 355 00:31:34.450 --> 00:31:40.310 it's a are are, of course. And um a Z faras. If you're talking to me, to be 356 00:31:40.310 --> 00:31:45.630 disaster is the most important things and charge is a big one, but the other 357 00:31:45.630 --> 00:31:53.370 one is cat ratio. So I track camp ratio, so pack ratio is capped LTV Definitely 358 00:31:53.370 --> 00:32:00.430 that's that's an important one. So pack ratio is for every dollar of a r r and 359 00:32:00.430 --> 00:32:08.870 sales. How much do I spend? And so this one is a tricky one, because early on, 360 00:32:08.870 --> 00:32:14.740 you're gonna you're gonna be way out of whack there. You're gonna be over $2 361 00:32:14.740 --> 00:32:20.450 for sure to get a dollar. They are, you know, it might be three. So it's three 362 00:32:21.040 --> 00:32:26.530 anything early, but you can't. You can't be focused on that. Good to watch 363 00:32:26.530 --> 00:32:31.390 it. Because what you wanna do is soon as that starts getting down to, like, 364 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:38.080 1.2 or 1.4. That's okay, because what you just said, lifetime value comes in. 365 00:32:38.090 --> 00:32:43.100 And if you got and if you're watching, Sure. You know, if you've got, like, a 366 00:32:43.100 --> 00:32:47.880 lifetime value if you got a 20% sure that you have a lifetime value of five 367 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:56.230 years, right? 20% a year? Sure. So now if you could compare your lifetime 368 00:32:56.230 --> 00:33:02.350 value to your calf ratio and you know so So now you're starting toe, just 369 00:33:02.350 --> 00:33:07.220 synchronize thes and you know you'll be able to see, like, Okay, Do I have a 370 00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:12.470 healthy business or not? The other two things I mentioned real quick. AARP you 371 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:16.630 average revenue per user. I don't look at average revenue for account. Look, 372 00:33:16.630 --> 00:33:20.210 average revenue per user that will do it that will take care of the average 373 00:33:20.210 --> 00:33:25.570 revenue per account. And A S P is pretty much sort of that right? And 374 00:33:25.570 --> 00:33:32.090 then t t v talk time to about. So that's and that's not like, hey, the 375 00:33:32.100 --> 00:33:37.110 the implementation guys that he's done. You know, it's not that at all. It's 376 00:33:37.120 --> 00:33:41.300 like you need to monitor. You need something like I use something called 377 00:33:41.300 --> 00:33:46.540 Game Side PS. And what it does is it monitors different parts of the app 378 00:33:46.540 --> 00:33:50.860 that users using There's other things out there that you could use. I you 379 00:33:50.860 --> 00:33:59.320 know, I like if you do stay inside, you know, But the, you know, we measure on, 380 00:33:59.320 --> 00:34:03.210 we use technology is important to use technologies like, you know, it's 381 00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:10.239 important now, definitely. Um, but we can see what parts of the app the users 382 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:14.540 using. So we know which ones to go after first rather than try and call 383 00:34:14.540 --> 00:34:18.530 them up and ask him. And, you know, that doesn't really work as well. When 384 00:34:18.530 --> 00:34:21.100 you call someone else, you know you have If you're a customer success 385 00:34:21.100 --> 00:34:25.070 manager, you say I don't know. You know how things going If I can come in and I 386 00:34:25.070 --> 00:34:29.900 like to know if you're using the product or not arts you're using, you 387 00:34:29.900 --> 00:34:34.560 know that's gonna help me bring them to success quicker. And, you know, that's 388 00:34:34.560 --> 00:34:40.280 a big eso if you're so you're talking about going into them in a quarterly 389 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:43.380 Business Review and sharing with them. This is the impact recreated. This is 390 00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:47.090 what you're using the most, and because you're using this information the most, 391 00:34:47.100 --> 00:34:50.480 we think and you're using this the least there's an opportunity for you, 392 00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:54.330 right? You're using Onley 20% of the functionality over here. Only 20% of 393 00:34:54.330 --> 00:34:58.560 your users are touching this particular feature. When it's generating this much 394 00:34:58.560 --> 00:35:02.750 mawr of Europe, cell capability, something like that, you're able to 395 00:35:02.750 --> 00:35:06.460 demonstrate that there's value that you're delivering and you're doing it 396 00:35:06.470 --> 00:35:11.640 on a repeated basis month after month, quarter after quarter. And that is 397 00:35:11.640 --> 00:35:14.740 invaluable. That's how you keep customers right. That's excellent. The 398 00:35:14.740 --> 00:35:19.470 way you put that, because, you know, in my experimentation with customers, 399 00:35:19.470 --> 00:35:23.890 success managers, you know, we've dealt with all kinds of situations. We, you 400 00:35:23.890 --> 00:35:26.960 know, I found out like our customer success managers. I think these are 401 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:32.460 easy mistakes to make. They would come in and they would do a review, but it 402 00:35:32.460 --> 00:35:36.870 was like a demo right back, and they say, Hey, look this And then and then 403 00:35:36.870 --> 00:35:41.520 their customer success managers or not, you know, sales gurus like you, who 404 00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:47.890 knows how to tell a story e When you're presenting to a customer, you know 405 00:35:47.890 --> 00:35:53.510 these air easy mistakes to make. So our customers success managers definitely 406 00:35:53.510 --> 00:35:58.240 used their data with the permission of the customer because they see the value 407 00:35:58.240 --> 00:36:03.440 of this. And we're able to show, you know, first off that there's what the 408 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:09.470 sale cycles are. First stage. This is like example of top pops about So we 409 00:36:09.470 --> 00:36:13.990 can say we can say, Hey, you've got a real opportunity when they come to this 410 00:36:13.990 --> 00:36:18.610 stage because this stage, they're winning, you're winning deals at 50% 411 00:36:18.620 --> 00:36:23.360 and you can be confident because our guided hygiene make sure deals are 412 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:27.360 where they're supposed to be. That's part of the AI what it does. You 413 00:36:27.370 --> 00:36:32.050 experienced that with your reps. I'm sure where it's like Wait a minute. 414 00:36:32.430 --> 00:36:36.920 This deal went from stage one to stage five and one day I'm sorry you didn't 415 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:44.750 close The sale cycle wasn't one day s o. So we, by managing that weaken, uh, 416 00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:49.930 show the customer why they're winning more and why they're winning faster. 417 00:36:49.940 --> 00:36:53.710 Certainly if they were not be able to come in and help with making that 418 00:36:53.710 --> 00:36:58.330 happen. So you're right. It's when you do the reviews, you have to demonstrate 419 00:36:58.330 --> 00:37:04.970 value with their data so they recognize what's happened and you know that's 420 00:37:04.980 --> 00:37:12.540 that's the game. And so and with that Aziz Monitor sp Air Our turn cat ratio 421 00:37:13.030 --> 00:37:20.660 Lifetime value, lifetime value to cap ratio. AARP you and T t v those air to 422 00:37:20.660 --> 00:37:25.820 me. You know there's other metrics. But if you look at those, you can see if 423 00:37:25.820 --> 00:37:33.180 you got a healthy this story because one more quick story, because I way had 424 00:37:33.180 --> 00:37:40.060 assuring problem with Top Pops. And then when I dug into it, we saw that we 425 00:37:40.060 --> 00:37:44.570 were turning out a smaller companies that work getting as much values were 426 00:37:44.580 --> 00:37:49.010 able to pinpoint where they got value, how many reps they needed. Eso like 427 00:37:49.020 --> 00:37:56.590 everybody under 15 reps. The value just wasn't a big here, and so and we But we 428 00:37:56.590 --> 00:37:59.860 saw we had a healthy business because if you had over 15 reps, they were 429 00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:03.890 selling Mawr. Oh my gosh, I almost forgot the most important metric to 430 00:38:03.890 --> 00:38:10.080 look at, and we were able to determine from that net dollar retention. So wait 431 00:38:10.080 --> 00:38:20.150 another podcast way could do a whole podcast on the way. Got plenty of those 432 00:38:20.150 --> 00:38:25.180 and and some of these obviously will apply as you're growing in the super 433 00:38:25.180 --> 00:38:29.330 early stages. Some of these things probably don't apply as much simply 434 00:38:29.330 --> 00:38:32.110 because you just don't have enough runway to be able to measure and 435 00:38:32.110 --> 00:38:35.400 analyze it. You don't have enough customers yet? Yeah, You're just really 436 00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:39.960 focusing on your category. You're getting to your unfair advantage and 437 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:46.270 your customer adoption, and I will tell you to get adoption. One thing I did 438 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:51.760 just a quick advice. Any any founder out there If you're really early on, 439 00:38:52.220 --> 00:38:57.710 you want to get advisers of people you sell to and then you want you want to 440 00:38:57.720 --> 00:39:02.150 do a deal with them as an adviser? In other words, you want to get them stock 441 00:39:02.150 --> 00:39:04.790 in your company. You gotta make sure you come through with that. Don't just, 442 00:39:04.790 --> 00:39:09.640 like, say something. I'll get that to you do that, but also make them have 443 00:39:09.640 --> 00:39:13.500 skin in the game and say, Listen, you're an adviser now you're gonna get 444 00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:16.130 this. You're gonna get in a fraction of the cost of what I'm going to sell to 445 00:39:16.130 --> 00:39:20.210 the market for, so that you can tell your company is that you're getting 446 00:39:20.210 --> 00:39:24.400 this in a fraction costs and it's gonna work. You're designing it to work for 447 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:29.700 your company. So you're influencing design, but you have to pay for it. 448 00:39:29.710 --> 00:39:34.480 Don't. Don't take an adviser on. It's gonna go like, hey, get free out. I'll 449 00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.670 help you out because they know seen it right there. Just be nice to you all 450 00:39:37.670 --> 00:39:41.770 the time. Oh, yeah, that works that they're not gonna use it. So anyway, I 451 00:39:41.770 --> 00:39:46.700 think that's a new important thing to get. Adoption is. You get an adviser, 452 00:39:46.700 --> 00:39:50.390 it's willing to pay for it. And if they don't have to pay for it right away, 453 00:39:50.390 --> 00:39:54.540 they can say, You just got to say, Listen, when I get to this point of 454 00:39:54.550 --> 00:40:00.240 value to you, you've gotta pay. Yes. So I think that's an important thing. It's 455 00:40:00.240 --> 00:40:04.340 a great piece of advice. Haven't really heard that before, but it makes so much 456 00:40:04.340 --> 00:40:08.140 sense when when you think about it. So just a couple more questions for you is 457 00:40:08.140 --> 00:40:11.210 that they will just go rapid fire through these anything that you have 458 00:40:11.210 --> 00:40:14.880 observed over time, whether it's was selling or whether it's raising money, 459 00:40:14.890 --> 00:40:20.250 that you would recommend that founders either start doing or or stop doing. 460 00:40:20.510 --> 00:40:24.170 Let's start with sales. Anything you see early stage founders doing when 461 00:40:24.170 --> 00:40:29.000 they're selling their product that they should maybe avoid talking about a 462 00:40:29.010 --> 00:40:33.580 couple things. So Founders early on, they're gonna have to sell them. 463 00:40:33.590 --> 00:40:36.890 Generally, founders are good at it because they're you know, they're very 464 00:40:36.890 --> 00:40:41.420 passionate on all of that. But they should learn to sell. They should, you 465 00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:46.310 know, talk to folks like you are, you know, there's like that, know how to go 466 00:40:46.310 --> 00:40:52.030 in and sell stuff. So their product background, they should learn sales. 467 00:40:52.710 --> 00:40:57.780 And then I think of the founders, got a sales background. He should get a good, 468 00:40:57.790 --> 00:41:04.390 you know, co founder that can handle all the other stuff, right? A a good 469 00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:09.860 technical founder, co founder, but also that those the business side and also 470 00:41:09.860 --> 00:41:16.110 is good in front of customers. So I think that zone important thing. But I 471 00:41:16.120 --> 00:41:20.270 do think like a founder. I mean, there's lots of places I could go with 472 00:41:20.270 --> 00:41:27.520 this. John. Everyone, how about don't give up? I think the reason both failed, 473 00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:31.160 they go back to their own job they had or the type of job they have for that 474 00:41:31.160 --> 00:41:35.540 kind of get a little bit worried about things, just yeah, you and I know it's 475 00:41:35.550 --> 00:41:41.710 It's rough going in the early days, but when you do, when you do stick it out, 476 00:41:41.720 --> 00:41:46.600 you get there. I think anything it takes a lot of work, right? And you 477 00:41:46.600 --> 00:41:50.540 just assume you're just so good at your previous job that you had to just go 478 00:41:50.540 --> 00:41:56.700 back to that. I think that's, you know, founders give up way too early, and I 479 00:41:56.700 --> 00:42:00.350 just think there's an answer for everything. And that's that Z sage 480 00:42:00.350 --> 00:42:05.480 advice and the fact that you've sort of gone through it three times, and each 481 00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:11.370 time it's been a new and different challenge. But you sort of have 482 00:42:11.370 --> 00:42:14.530 navigated right. You've set sail in a certain direction, but you have 483 00:42:14.530 --> 00:42:18.580 adjusted the sales along the way. And that's kind of how I typically describe 484 00:42:18.590 --> 00:42:21.730 what startup life is like is right. You're going through rough waters, but 485 00:42:21.730 --> 00:42:24.430 you, you're they're gonna be calm. Waters. They're gonna be times when 486 00:42:24.430 --> 00:42:28.410 it's a ton of fun. There's gonna be times when it's super hard, but along 487 00:42:28.410 --> 00:42:31.170 the way you have to adjust the sails. You're still heading in the right 488 00:42:31.170 --> 00:42:36.530 direction. You may not even need change course, but you need to manage through 489 00:42:36.530 --> 00:42:40.920 that process and look at it. Look at it as the long play, not thes short term 490 00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:48.420 on even top ops. There's, uh, I would say the thing out of everything that 491 00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:52.140 happened with all my three companies usually like. It's like when you're 492 00:42:52.140 --> 00:42:57.050 coaching right. It's like your current team is the one. But, uh, of course I 493 00:42:57.050 --> 00:43:02.670 love and you love all your teams, right? When top ups the turnaround, there was 494 00:43:02.670 --> 00:43:07.280 a turnaround top off, so we got in some. But all three companies have gotten 495 00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:13.380 into rough waters and the unfair advantage that I went back to focus 496 00:43:13.380 --> 00:43:19.340 because I lost my unfair advantage. Top ups, eh? So I went back and we ended up 497 00:43:19.350 --> 00:43:25.150 private labeling. Uh, going all in on Partners partners is a tough thing, 498 00:43:25.150 --> 00:43:30.640 though. Every day, but partners, our partners of job and it took me a long 499 00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:35.590 time, but it turned things around. We might label our product Now we have 500 00:43:35.590 --> 00:43:40.420 started in the ups, um, really big players out there, and it's really paid 501 00:43:40.420 --> 00:43:48.250 off for us. So So that's now that funded our direct sales. And so you 502 00:43:48.250 --> 00:43:53.990 know, that's what I mean, like, just never give up in, uh, there's ways If I 503 00:43:53.990 --> 00:43:59.480 could do it, I'm sure the last 102nd, uh, yeah, I think you're a pretty 504 00:43:59.490 --> 00:44:04.490 unique serial entrepreneur. And it has been great toe learn about you and your 505 00:44:04.490 --> 00:44:10.160 background and the work that you've done with host with gain site with top 506 00:44:10.170 --> 00:44:15.680 ups and just, you know, want to wish you a happy and safe 2021 wish you 507 00:44:15.680 --> 00:44:21.450 continued. Success s thanks for having me. So just for everyone, what is the 508 00:44:21.450 --> 00:44:26.310 best way if they want to connect with you? Sure. I mean, you can, uh, Lincoln 509 00:44:26.310 --> 00:44:31.950 is the best. Djimon top box dot com is also you know, you certainly get to me 510 00:44:31.950 --> 00:44:36.850 through my email, but yeah, I love helping out. You know, entrepreneurs, 511 00:44:36.860 --> 00:44:41.630 you and I have worked with a lot, you know, like I like volunteer whenever I 512 00:44:41.640 --> 00:44:48.000 can charge France. And so, yeah, I would love to help any founder. That's, 513 00:44:48.490 --> 00:44:50.950 you know, it feels like, especially when they feel like they're up against 514 00:44:50.950 --> 00:44:55.290 a brick wall. Eso founders of their listening potentially take advantage of 515 00:44:55.300 --> 00:44:59.220 that offer. It's a pretty unique opportunity, sand. And thanks to 516 00:44:59.220 --> 00:45:04.510 everyone for listening to this episode of the revenue Siris on B two b growth. 517 00:45:04.890 --> 00:45:09.500 I'm your host John Grisman, founder and sales coach at Early Revenue. Thank you 518 00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:14.920 for tuning in and subscribing to be to be growth until next time I am out. 519 00:45:18.390 --> 00:45:22.220 Are you an early stage tech founder that's frustrated by limited sales? Do 520 00:45:22.220 --> 00:45:25.440 you lack the time to dedicate to a traditional sales training program? 521 00:45:25.450 --> 00:45:29.210 John Grissom's early revenue sales program helps early stage founders 522 00:45:29.220 --> 00:45:33.020 accelerate sales. In large accounts, he's built a playbook that transfers 523 00:45:33.020 --> 00:45:36.430 what he's learned as a founder and sales later into a condensed, easy to 524 00:45:36.430 --> 00:45:40.210 implement program. If you're ready to increase your startup sales capacity, 525 00:45:40.190 --> 00:45:43.430 visit early revenue dot com to get started today.
