What you need for a Crisp Marketing Campaign

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah, 2 00:00:05.640 --> 00:00:09.510 Hi everyone, welcome back to be, to be growth. My name is Olivia Hurley and 3 00:00:09.510 --> 00:00:14.090 today I'm joined by mary Pat Donnellan who is the Chief Revenue Officer at 4 00:00:14.100 --> 00:00:19.300 Call Rail. Hi mary Pat, how are you? I'm doing well, thank you for having me 5 00:00:19.300 --> 00:00:24.330 Olivia. Well it is my pleasure. I'm really excited to talk to you today, 6 00:00:24.340 --> 00:00:29.810 you have seen one or two marketing campaigns in your day and and I'm 7 00:00:29.810 --> 00:00:35.080 excited to learn more, but I want to kind of level set with everybody like 8 00:00:35.080 --> 00:00:38.870 you were saying a few minutes ago and get us all on the same page. So my 9 00:00:38.870 --> 00:00:43.720 first question is how do you think about a marketing campaign? Okay, we'll 10 00:00:43.720 --> 00:00:48.730 dive right in. So when I think about a marketing campaign, I think about it in 11 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:54.410 multiple layers. Kind of the first layer would be, what is the message or 12 00:00:54.420 --> 00:01:00.480 outcome that we're trying to accomplish with this campaign? What do we want our 13 00:01:00.480 --> 00:01:06.250 potential buyers to do at the end of the day? Like what is the outcome were 14 00:01:06.250 --> 00:01:10.320 driving for and how do we want to communicate with them? Like what do we 15 00:01:10.320 --> 00:01:15.740 want them to know to get them uh, to that outcome. So kind of, that's the 16 00:01:15.740 --> 00:01:20.160 top level, like really being clear on what the outcome is and what the 17 00:01:20.160 --> 00:01:27.160 message is to get to that outcome, then you have a million channels as we all 18 00:01:27.160 --> 00:01:31.660 know in today's world, there is an unlimited number of channels that you 19 00:01:31.660 --> 00:01:36.930 have by which you can communicate to your audience with that message and the 20 00:01:36.930 --> 00:01:42.250 outcome and then you need to, basically the way I think about it is mapping the 21 00:01:42.250 --> 00:01:51.040 message and the channels to your buyers and their journey and to try to get the 22 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:57.520 right message two at the right time to the right person. And that's nuanced 23 00:01:57.520 --> 00:02:02.160 and complicated at times. And it can be kind of simple too. But those are the 24 00:02:02.160 --> 00:02:08.150 elements that I think of and planning a campaign. I love that. It it seems like 25 00:02:08.539 --> 00:02:13.870 it's really succinct when you think about it that way. And I'm curious with 26 00:02:13.870 --> 00:02:17.160 this. You know, we have, what are you trying to accomplish? What's the 27 00:02:17.160 --> 00:02:21.460 outcome? How do we want to say it? What's the right time early? There are 28 00:02:21.940 --> 00:02:26.850 ways to complicate that and surely there are irrelevant efforts. And so if 29 00:02:26.850 --> 00:02:31.800 those are the ones that are essential to the marketing campaign success, are 30 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:35.210 there parts that you've seen time and time again that people add in, 31 00:02:35.210 --> 00:02:40.390 marketers add in that are irrelevant or unnecessary? I think there's a couple 32 00:02:40.390 --> 00:02:46.500 ways to look at it. I think that people can overcomplicate for sure. One way to 33 00:02:46.510 --> 00:02:53.930 over complicate is to maybe start with the channels and think like, oh, we 34 00:02:53.930 --> 00:02:58.930 have all these channels that we can go after. We need to put our message on 35 00:02:58.930 --> 00:03:05.620 social. We need to advertise here. We need to and not just social, but every 36 00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:11.610 channel on social, we need to do facebook linkedin instagram Tiktok like 37 00:03:11.610 --> 00:03:16.350 whatever it might be, we have to do all of them. We have to advertise in all 38 00:03:16.350 --> 00:03:22.370 the places we need to call everybody and do all the things. And I don't 39 00:03:22.380 --> 00:03:28.020 think that that's really necessarily strategic or necessary. I think we can 40 00:03:28.020 --> 00:03:33.020 get really busy as marketers and feel like we're doing a lot by pursuing a 41 00:03:33.020 --> 00:03:37.550 lot of channels. But if they're not the channels where your buyers are, it's 42 00:03:37.550 --> 00:03:41.350 not gonna make sense. It's like we're doing that because we might like it. 43 00:03:41.350 --> 00:03:44.920 But if our buyers aren't there and that's not where they consume 44 00:03:44.920 --> 00:03:50.000 information, then you might be wasting your time and a lot of energy and we 45 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:55.560 all know there's so many channels right now. So being really thoughtful about 46 00:03:55.940 --> 00:04:00.700 where your buyers are and the people you want to reach and then being very 47 00:04:00.700 --> 00:04:06.340 selective on the channels. So that's, that's one way that I see wasted time 48 00:04:06.340 --> 00:04:13.670 and energy and and marketing dollars. The other way that I see it is when the 49 00:04:13.670 --> 00:04:18.510 timing and the message and the channel don't match. So let me give you an 50 00:04:18.510 --> 00:04:24.740 example of that. I am Chief Revenue Officer, my phone, I get so many phone 51 00:04:24.740 --> 00:04:28.990 calls and emails from very well intentioned business development 52 00:04:28.990 --> 00:04:33.920 representatives. I love BDR. I have BDR s on my team, I love them. But when 53 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:38.350 they're cold calling me right now and saying, I want to give you a demo of my 54 00:04:38.350 --> 00:04:44.210 software. Like that's not where I am right now right now, where I am in my 55 00:04:44.210 --> 00:04:48.260 journey? I'm thinking about how am I going to grow my business. What am I 56 00:04:48.260 --> 00:04:53.860 going to do next year and All the planning that I need to do to drive 57 00:04:53.860 --> 00:04:58.730 more growth in 2022. That's like where my head is right now. I am absolutely 58 00:04:58.730 --> 00:05:03.690 not sitting around thinking what software can can I buy today? Like 59 00:05:03.690 --> 00:05:08.690 that's not where my head is. So if I'm doing like outbound calling as part of 60 00:05:08.690 --> 00:05:14.230 a campaign and coming in with a message to someone like me that hasn't engaged, 61 00:05:14.230 --> 00:05:17.650 knows nothing about your software and you want to show me a demo. Like I'm 62 00:05:17.650 --> 00:05:22.060 going to ignore you and it's not worth my time and it's not worth their time, 63 00:05:22.440 --> 00:05:27.090 a better use if you're going to use that channel knowing that a buyer that 64 00:05:27.090 --> 00:05:30.510 they don't a potential buyer that they've identified. But I haven't 65 00:05:30.510 --> 00:05:35.520 engaged is maybe to have something where they're inviting me to. Something 66 00:05:35.520 --> 00:05:40.510 about growth planning. How do B two B saS leaders think about revenue growth? 67 00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:44.520 That's what I'm thinking about inviting me to something where a thought leader 68 00:05:44.520 --> 00:05:48.110 on that topic is going to share insights. That's the way to maybe get 69 00:05:48.110 --> 00:05:53.900 me engaged. Or maybe we don't make that phone call until I have engaged with 70 00:05:53.900 --> 00:05:59.540 some other channels and they know, oh, she obviously has a problem that she's 71 00:05:59.540 --> 00:06:04.460 looking to solve and is looking around on this. She's a warm lead. I think 72 00:06:04.460 --> 00:06:08.960 probably at this at this point. She's ready for a phone call to see a demo of 73 00:06:08.960 --> 00:06:13.270 my software. But that's an example of where a phone call isn't necessarily a 74 00:06:13.270 --> 00:06:18.680 bad thing. It can be a very good thing. But if it's like going right on a cold 75 00:06:18.690 --> 00:06:24.130 outreach to see a demo of a software, you know, just, it's not the right time 76 00:06:24.140 --> 00:06:30.700 for that this fire and not the right message. And how how should a decision 77 00:06:30.700 --> 00:06:35.980 maker over the marketing campaign make those decisions, how should they make 78 00:06:35.980 --> 00:06:41.400 the call that outbound prospecting with cold calling isn't the right first move 79 00:06:41.410 --> 00:06:47.230 or? Yes. So the way I think about it, the first thing to do in planning your 80 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:52.510 campaign is to really understand who you're trying to reach and doing 81 00:06:52.510 --> 00:06:56.070 research. It doesn't have to be a formal market research study. It can be 82 00:06:56.080 --> 00:07:01.360 informal research, like calling people, talking to them, understanding how they 83 00:07:01.370 --> 00:07:07.130 consume information and where they look for answers and where they hang out, et 84 00:07:07.140 --> 00:07:12.640 cetera, and how they think about things. So, you know, really buyer persona, 85 00:07:12.650 --> 00:07:17.880 understanding who your buyer is and how they consume information. And a little 86 00:07:17.880 --> 00:07:23.000 bit about the types of decisions that that person would make, where they look 87 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:27.600 for information, how they think about things. So just do basic research and 88 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:33.450 make a very simple map of what that journey is. And then it's a matter of 89 00:07:33.460 --> 00:07:39.260 mapping your message and your channels to that decision making process, 90 00:07:39.270 --> 00:07:43.880 knowing your buyer. And the way I think about it is, um, and I think it's 91 00:07:43.880 --> 00:07:48.860 pretty standard is that you would have kind of high level content for an 92 00:07:48.940 --> 00:07:53.180 offerings for people who aren't engaged at all that you don't know, you need to 93 00:07:53.190 --> 00:07:56.930 educate them on what's possible that they might have a problem that they 94 00:07:56.930 --> 00:08:01.620 could do things better in my case. Maybe it's like what are SAS leaders 95 00:08:01.620 --> 00:08:07.310 thinking about for growth going forward, that would be like top level. Then once 96 00:08:07.310 --> 00:08:11.900 we've gotten some engagement in there, we talk about how people are solving 97 00:08:11.900 --> 00:08:16.170 these problems, what tools might be available where they could get insights 98 00:08:16.170 --> 00:08:20.580 to help them deploy their resources better and and find more growth 99 00:08:20.580 --> 00:08:27.320 opportunities. And then once they're engaged at that level, then say, okay, 100 00:08:27.330 --> 00:08:33.289 now would be the time to put a call in and see if we can get them to do a demo 101 00:08:33.289 --> 00:08:38.970 of our software. So it's kind of like just mapping it out in advance and 102 00:08:38.970 --> 00:08:44.100 doing that planning up front and then being able to capture what's happening 103 00:08:44.110 --> 00:08:48.160 along that journey. So that's, that's the hard part often is like 104 00:08:48.170 --> 00:08:53.070 understanding what's happening along that journey. So that you know, how 105 00:08:53.070 --> 00:08:58.500 engaged is someone, how interested is someone, where are they on their 106 00:08:58.500 --> 00:09:04.000 journey and being able to track and know that so that your surfacing those 107 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:07.350 write messages and have the right tactics at the right time? 108 00:09:08.540 --> 00:09:14.010 What do you think people stand to lose or maybe you have an example of maybe a 109 00:09:14.010 --> 00:09:19.070 time where you missed out on, on, on something like this? But what do you 110 00:09:19.070 --> 00:09:23.120 think people stand to lose by continuing to kind of include some of 111 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.350 these like irrelevant efforts of like going after every channel or not 112 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:33.720 knowing who the buyer is. Um yeah, yeah, there's two problems. One is, you can 113 00:09:33.730 --> 00:09:38.900 and I would love to say I've never done this, but I have the number one problem 114 00:09:38.910 --> 00:09:43.680 is that you can burn out a team. Like you can exhaust people like there is so 115 00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:47.600 much work that you can put into these efforts and it can be an unlimited 116 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:53.440 amount of work. So whoever is running these campaigns, like if if you're 117 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:58.390 doing extraneous work, it's hot. Like we need to be smart about what we do 118 00:09:58.390 --> 00:10:03.930 and um otherwise you can be on this hamster wheel that never ends. So that 119 00:10:03.940 --> 00:10:08.610 is one like big internal risk is that you burn out the people doing the work 120 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:12.740 because they're just doing everything and sometimes when you do everything, 121 00:10:12.740 --> 00:10:18.560 your, you're not doing the things. So being careful of burnout for your team, 122 00:10:18.940 --> 00:10:26.600 the other one is you can waste a lot of money to and so I think the way to, you 123 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.600 know, you've talked to buyers, you know where they are, you need to definitely 124 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:36.360 focus on putting your efforts there. It's also okay to try new things, but I 125 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:41.850 would strongly encourage marketers to test into those before they go all in 126 00:10:41.850 --> 00:10:46.980 and put tons of resources just because a channel exists or we think it might 127 00:10:46.980 --> 00:10:52.340 be good like test into it and find out for sure. So that's the other thing. 128 00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:58.000 There's a risk of a lot of waste and valuable resources. Lastly, and 129 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:03.910 probably the worst is you can create a really bad customer experience if you 130 00:11:03.920 --> 00:11:09.500 are going out with really aggressive messages that aren't like suited to 131 00:11:09.500 --> 00:11:14.710 where a person is, it makes it feel like you don't understand or care or 132 00:11:14.710 --> 00:11:19.630 get your buyer and and it can feel inauthentic, irrelevant and really 133 00:11:19.640 --> 00:11:25.220 damage your brand. So I think that's probably the greatest hazard of all is 134 00:11:25.220 --> 00:11:32.210 that you that you do things that just are tone deaf and wrong um for the 135 00:11:32.210 --> 00:11:37.100 person that you're trying to engage with and and it creates not only maybe 136 00:11:37.100 --> 00:11:40.890 a different opinion, but actually a negative impression which you don't 137 00:11:40.890 --> 00:11:45.940 want. Do you have an example of that? Maybe not from your own experience? Oh 138 00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:51.730 yeah, I've never seen that done. I'll go back like every day I get so many 139 00:11:51.740 --> 00:11:58.530 emails from good companies just like with these super technical invitations 140 00:11:58.530 --> 00:12:06.150 talking all about them that they want me and come to this like super specific 141 00:12:06.150 --> 00:12:11.000 technical thing. It's just like a turn off, especially if it's marketing 142 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:16.370 software that would be coming to me like trying to say like really 143 00:12:16.370 --> 00:12:24.020 technical detailed demo and or kind of increasingly aggressive outreach. It's 144 00:12:24.020 --> 00:12:28.490 a real negative, it's in my in box all day long. I won't name any names. But 145 00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:33.350 I'm sure if you're a marketer you get them in your probably anybody and B two 146 00:12:33.350 --> 00:12:38.320 B you're getting that from vendors and it leaves a negative impression and 147 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:43.530 it's in my in box all day long. How many do you think you get every day? 148 00:12:43.540 --> 00:12:48.560 Like I would say, I now I do try to unsubscribe to a lot, so I get it 149 00:12:48.560 --> 00:12:53.720 better and then it explodes again once my name gets put on another list 150 00:12:53.720 --> 00:13:02.570 someplace I think. So I would say 10 to 15. Yeah. And a lot some really good 151 00:13:02.570 --> 00:13:07.980 companies, you know, maybe they bought a list of, you know, my profile, they 152 00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:12.120 buy a list and then they start hammering me and then it's just like go 153 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:16.480 away. I don't want any part of this. Yeah. Is it one of those things where 154 00:13:16.490 --> 00:13:22.840 because of the nature of the outreach, even if that was a solution that you 155 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:29.190 were looking for, it was just delete it. Yeah, I don't even it's just like 156 00:13:29.190 --> 00:13:33.720 delete unsubscribe. Unsubscribe without even looking. Yeah. And then they've 157 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:39.250 lost me for everything, you know, I'm unsubscribing, right? Oh, what a loss. 158 00:13:39.250 --> 00:13:46.520 That's yeah, that's a bummer. So instead of these, you know, 159 00:13:46.530 --> 00:13:50.650 inappropriate, strong word. But he's like outreach, that doesn't make sense 160 00:13:50.650 --> 00:13:55.060 with the, you know, the level of engagement, the place that you're at or 161 00:13:55.060 --> 00:13:59.010 going after every channel, you know, instead of doing those things, what do 162 00:13:59.010 --> 00:14:04.960 you suggest in their places to have a really tight focused effective campaign. 163 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:11.520 Yeah, so again, back to mapping out that buyers journey understanding where 164 00:14:11.520 --> 00:14:18.990 people are and then it's very important for marketers to know and look at what 165 00:14:18.990 --> 00:14:23.540 is working and what isn't. So you have to understand how people are engaging 166 00:14:23.550 --> 00:14:28.900 and what is driving outcomes and not. So you have to be very critical and and 167 00:14:28.900 --> 00:14:32.460 look at that at all at all times. Actually, it's interesting that is what 168 00:14:32.460 --> 00:14:36.820 I call real provides for small businesses is tools not to do a 169 00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:41.220 shameless plug here, but that is what Call Rail is all about, is providing 170 00:14:41.220 --> 00:14:45.570 that kind of insight into into what's working and what isn't for small 171 00:14:45.570 --> 00:14:49.990 businesses so that they can see what actually drove to a phone call, what 172 00:14:49.990 --> 00:14:56.260 actually resulted in in bound form fill or a text or chat on their website and 173 00:14:56.260 --> 00:15:01.390 they know what works and what, what doesn't. So all marketers need to have 174 00:15:01.390 --> 00:15:06.450 some level of data to understand that otherwise you're flying blind and it 175 00:15:06.450 --> 00:15:10.640 feels right to you, but you can actually test with the level of 176 00:15:10.640 --> 00:15:16.850 engagement and what activities are out actually leading to outcomes. So we try 177 00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:22.180 to be pretty crisp on that and our business as we're marketing and then 178 00:15:22.190 --> 00:15:26.640 we're, it's like actually great to be able to offer that just small 179 00:15:26.640 --> 00:15:31.480 businesses of all sizes as a company. I think that's awesome. I'm so, and I 180 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.330 look like you use the word crisp, that's just so visual for me. I'm 181 00:15:35.330 --> 00:15:41.040 curious what the, you have a campaign going, you're measuring, you had your 182 00:15:41.050 --> 00:15:45.560 understanding engagement from your ideal buyers and something needs to 183 00:15:45.560 --> 00:15:52.460 change. Um, I'm curious about about the, how you alter the focus, how you kind 184 00:15:52.460 --> 00:15:58.530 of turn the ship mid campaign. That's a great question. So any time you're 185 00:15:58.530 --> 00:16:01.260 doing something, you'll get some things right and you're going to get some 186 00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:07.760 things wrong. So again, just to be open minded, data driven, so that your, your 187 00:16:07.760 --> 00:16:12.430 emotions don't cloud your judgment. And if something isn't even if it's your, 188 00:16:12.430 --> 00:16:18.460 what you thought was amazing and it isn't getting engagement or working, 189 00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:23.710 there's a couple things to look at. One is, is the message right? Like, is it 190 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:28.170 just the way we presented something? Could it be done differently? And you 191 00:16:28.170 --> 00:16:32.320 could test that, You could introduce a new, a different variation of that and 192 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:37.070 see if it performs better. You could ask yourself is the channel right? Is 193 00:16:37.070 --> 00:16:42.030 the way I'm communicating correct? And if it is, maybe that isn't, maybe you 194 00:16:42.030 --> 00:16:45.230 start with a message and that's probably often the easiest place to 195 00:16:45.230 --> 00:16:50.180 start. If you're like, construct in your channel is off. You need to be 196 00:16:50.180 --> 00:16:54.870 open minded and look at that. If you're advertising in some place and it's not 197 00:16:54.870 --> 00:16:58.830 working. Like don't keep putting thinking like, if I keep putting more 198 00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:03.140 money into this, it'll start working all of a sudden like be honest with 199 00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:07.380 yourself and try to look at what is working and maybe redeploy some of 200 00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:12.690 those dollars toward what is and and further away from what isn't. So those 201 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:17.630 are the kind of things. I think it's just being open minded and like looking 202 00:17:17.630 --> 00:17:21.880 at it regularly, like you don't launch a campaign and go away, but like on a 203 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.569 regular cadence, you're inspecting it and seeing how things are progressing, 204 00:17:26.579 --> 00:17:31.230 you know, it call real and most B two B business is, we're looking at how 205 00:17:31.230 --> 00:17:36.100 engaged in measuring how engaged are prospects are through a lead score and 206 00:17:36.100 --> 00:17:40.560 understanding all the touch points that drive to that lead score. And if you 207 00:17:40.560 --> 00:17:45.060 see things getting stuck and not progressing, you have to, that's like 208 00:17:45.060 --> 00:17:50.530 your trigger of where things might need to change and you just go in and you 209 00:17:50.530 --> 00:17:56.300 keep working it, testing iterating, redeploying, you've got to be nimble. 210 00:17:56.310 --> 00:18:00.460 That's the way it is. It's not set it and forget it. It's an ongoing process. 211 00:18:00.940 --> 00:18:05.670 You got to be nimble. What results have you seen in your career from kind of 212 00:18:05.670 --> 00:18:11.320 reducing some of this waste and readjusting as you go, I've seen great 213 00:18:11.320 --> 00:18:17.230 results from this over time and again, sometimes we haven't gotten it right, 214 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:21.130 but a lot of times we have and sometimes you get it right after all 215 00:18:21.130 --> 00:18:27.190 the iterations, what we've seen is just huge engagements improvement with 216 00:18:27.190 --> 00:18:32.830 target market. So, you know, an example of a market that car rail works very 217 00:18:32.830 --> 00:18:38.580 closely with is a digital marketing agencies And we've really one of the 218 00:18:38.580 --> 00:18:42.430 things when I came to call rails, like looking at how can we better engage 219 00:18:42.430 --> 00:18:47.330 with marketing agencies, speak to them in their language, find them and get 220 00:18:47.330 --> 00:18:51.630 them into our fold. And we've been able to increase our penetration of North 221 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:56.940 American marketing agencies like by 20%. We have really high market share with 222 00:18:56.940 --> 00:18:59.950 marketing agencies. A lot of them used call rail, especially if they have 223 00:18:59.950 --> 00:19:04.660 small business clients. So we've done really, really well with that. But it 224 00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:09.830 involves getting into the mindset of a marketing agency understanding where 225 00:19:09.830 --> 00:19:16.010 they are speaking to their pains and then showing tangibly how our solution 226 00:19:16.010 --> 00:19:20.120 can solve their pain agencies want to show our ally to their clients and 227 00:19:20.120 --> 00:19:25.260 prove the value of their work for their clients and we talked to that about 228 00:19:25.260 --> 00:19:29.360 that at a high level. But then tangibly as they get engaged, show them how Call 229 00:19:29.360 --> 00:19:35.570 real can do that for them. So that's a been a huge success story for us, it's 230 00:19:35.580 --> 00:19:39.260 been a big driver of our growth, which has been exciting. That's awesome. 231 00:19:39.260 --> 00:19:44.120 Congratulations friends. That's yeah, if you were kind of to paint like a 232 00:19:44.130 --> 00:19:49.630 sweeping generalization of the BdB world right now, do you think that that 233 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:55.680 many marketing campaigns kind of our super focused only have the essentials 234 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.940 or do you think you generally see a lot of marketing campaigns? And I'm 235 00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:03.200 thinking back to the fact that you get a lot of these cold outreach. So I 236 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.500 think I can guess the answer, but do you think that a lot of them operate 237 00:20:06.500 --> 00:20:10.580 like that or that this is a really big need for people to move in this 238 00:20:10.580 --> 00:20:17.290 direction? Yeah, so I would love to say, I think some organizations probably do 239 00:20:17.290 --> 00:20:24.030 it thoughtful, pruned, careful from the buyer's perspective and let me just 240 00:20:24.030 --> 00:20:28.250 back up. I think most people want to do this. It does take so I don't think 241 00:20:28.250 --> 00:20:33.290 anybody wakes up every morning and think I want to spam uh, you know, 242 00:20:33.290 --> 00:20:38.860 thousands of people. I think that that happens when there's not time or you 243 00:20:38.860 --> 00:20:43.440 feel pressure or or you don't feel like you have the tools to know what's 244 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:48.550 working or what isn't. So you just do everything. So I do want to say like, I 245 00:20:48.550 --> 00:20:53.910 don't think anybody intends to do that. Maybe some people do. I hope not many. 246 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:58.910 I think most people want to do it the right way. So the key to being able to 247 00:20:58.910 --> 00:21:03.180 do it the right way though, is to understand your buyer just do at least 248 00:21:03.190 --> 00:21:08.270 a little bit of up front and make sure that you can understand what's working 249 00:21:08.270 --> 00:21:14.060 and what isn't so that you can tweak and manage. It's very hard. I think all 250 00:21:14.060 --> 00:21:17.770 of us as marketers can get excited about all the channels that are out 251 00:21:17.770 --> 00:21:22.120 there and like so called vanity channels where there's just never been 252 00:21:22.120 --> 00:21:28.740 more places to advertise or to participate in. I just encourage people 253 00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:34.210 to be judicious test into it. Don't go all in, do it a little bit, make sure 254 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:42.120 it works before you go all in. So again, I think people Get it wrong, probably 255 00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:47.890 make up a percentage, 70% of the time versus 30%. I'm making that up totally. 256 00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:52.240 I think people are well intentioned, they don't want to do that. I think 257 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:57.100 it's like feeling like you need to go fast and there's so much to choose from. 258 00:21:57.110 --> 00:22:01.520 Like they're just not as judicious or aren't patient to test their way 259 00:22:01.520 --> 00:22:06.150 through it or don't feel like they have the tools to measure what's working and 260 00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:11.400 really understand it. Yeah. And what you said about doing these like 261 00:22:11.410 --> 00:22:15.190 widespread, let's try it. Some of these things aren't going to work. So this 262 00:22:15.190 --> 00:22:18.010 cold outreach isn't going to work. These channels aren't going to work. 263 00:22:18.020 --> 00:22:20.810 Maybe they're doing that because there's a lot of pressure and I think 264 00:22:20.810 --> 00:22:24.400 to kind of loop it back into what you said earlier, like planning the 265 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:29.660 campaign and and having these very, very focused elements of, you know, 266 00:22:30.140 --> 00:22:33.410 what are you trying to accomplish? What is the outcome? How do you say the 267 00:22:33.410 --> 00:22:37.760 right thing at the right time um is a really great way to alleviate some of 268 00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:44.710 that pressure as well. If there was one big takeaway you wanted a listener to 269 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:49.710 either go try out or apply as a strategy or even just tell themselves 270 00:22:49.710 --> 00:22:53.450 as a marketer, what would it be? The number one thing that you can do as a 271 00:22:53.450 --> 00:23:01.000 marketer is understand your audience deeply. So take the time for that. Talk 272 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:05.290 to them, get to know them. Hopefully it someday in the future you can go see 273 00:23:05.290 --> 00:23:10.310 them even if they're in your community or if you have to travel a little bit, 274 00:23:10.310 --> 00:23:15.550 but get to know or just call them and do a zoom. We all know how to do that. 275 00:23:15.550 --> 00:23:21.160 So just get to know your buyer and really understand them deeply. That is 276 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:26.130 really the key is knowing your buyer and customer. The other things are all 277 00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:31.910 all flow from that. So don't start with channels. Don't start with tactics. 278 00:23:31.910 --> 00:23:37.230 Start with knowing your fire in your customer. That that's how you're going 279 00:23:37.230 --> 00:23:42.660 to get success. Oh my goodness. I love that. And as somebody who, speaking for 280 00:23:42.660 --> 00:23:46.950 myself, as somebody who doesn't know the specifics of that, Is that going to 281 00:23:46.950 --> 00:23:50.240 talk with current customers? Is that a really good way to get to know your 282 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.360 buyer? Or is it is it going out and speaking with people like maybe like 283 00:23:54.360 --> 00:23:58.630 yourself, who they don't you haven't engaged with their marketing material 284 00:23:58.630 --> 00:24:02.520 or even their company at all? Yeah, I would do a little bit of both. Like 285 00:24:02.520 --> 00:24:07.330 start with your customers. That's easier. Like understand them. Interview 286 00:24:07.330 --> 00:24:11.160 customers that have been successful. Like what? How did you find us? What 287 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.270 did you think when you saw this? Like what encouraged you to take the next 288 00:24:15.270 --> 00:24:20.440 step? Like understand that deeply capture why did you choose us? Like 289 00:24:20.450 --> 00:24:24.960 have we lived up to what you thought we would be? Have the courage to ask all 290 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:29.260 those questions and deal with it whether it's great or it's hard to hear 291 00:24:29.260 --> 00:24:34.070 or like some things could be hard to hear where you find out like maybe all 292 00:24:34.070 --> 00:24:37.400 the marketing was good. But then the experience of being an actual customers 293 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.180 different than you than they anticipated. You need to know that too. 294 00:24:41.190 --> 00:24:45.950 So I would start there. It's easy. You know who they are. But then look at 295 00:24:45.950 --> 00:24:51.240 your market. I use the example of marketing agencies before. Find some 296 00:24:51.250 --> 00:24:56.060 that aren't your clients. Like how do you solve this problem? How do you show 297 00:24:56.060 --> 00:25:00.580 value to your clients? Where do you go to get information? Like what are the 298 00:25:00.580 --> 00:25:06.450 organizations you belong to? Who are the people that you respect and follow? 299 00:25:06.460 --> 00:25:11.670 Where do you find your information? Like just probe and ask and make sure 300 00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:16.570 you understand their pains. What problems are trying to solve? Uh and 301 00:25:16.570 --> 00:25:21.850 where they get their ideas and inspirations for being better. I love 302 00:25:21.850 --> 00:25:27.560 that you have given so much helpful information. You've educated me quite a 303 00:25:27.570 --> 00:25:32.180 bit and you've been so eloquent this whole time. so I'm so glad we got to 304 00:25:32.180 --> 00:25:36.750 chat today mary pat, how can listeners connect with you and learn more about 305 00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:41.460 Call rail. Absolutely. First of all, feel free to email me at mary paddock, 306 00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:45.230 Call rail dot com. I'd love to hear from you and I'm on twitter at Mp 307 00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:50.190 Donnellan at MPI down Ellen, but call real visitor site, it's called real dot 308 00:25:50.190 --> 00:25:56.390 com. You can check it out, see what we're up to. Start a free trial if you 309 00:25:56.390 --> 00:26:01.100 want and if you're ready but experience what we have, but we'd love to hear 310 00:26:01.100 --> 00:26:07.510 from you, I'd love to hear from you and uh I really appreciate the time With 311 00:26:07.510 --> 00:26:11.090 you Olivia and thanks so much for having me. I love that. Well it has 312 00:26:11.090 --> 00:26:15.170 been so phenomenal and thank you so much for being on B2B growth. Yeah, 313 00:26:19.040 --> 00:26:22.720 one of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of 314 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:27.410 mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, 315 00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:31.320 it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if 316 00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:35.640 you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend, meta. 317 00:26:35.650 --> 00:26:39.290 I know I'll send you a copy of my book, content based networking, how to 318 00:26:39.300 --> 00:26:42.740 instantly connect with anyone you want to know? My cell phone number is 319 00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:48.050 40749033 to 8. Happy texting