Transcript
WEBVTT
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Yeah. Mhm
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What's up everybody? Welcome back to
GDP Growth. I'm Leslie Cruise with
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Swedish media. We're continuing our
journey into demand generation and
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today I am joined by our very own dan
Sanchez dan, you're usually in the
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hosting chair here, but you're in the
hot seat today. So welcome between
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Sweet Fish Media members. It's kind of
fun to just jump back and forth and you
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jump onto a podcast. Sometimes we're
like, wait, who's hosting? Are you
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hosting? Or am I hosting? Usually I'm
on here with James and we're just kind
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of like usually right before we jump on
and be like, oh do you want to kick it
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off? It's kind of like which everyone
goes. So it's fun to kind of jump in
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with you on your deep dive, which
before you start asking me questions, I
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have to ask you the question like how
has it been going with your deep dive
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and like where do you feel like you're
at in this journey? What do you feel
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like you've learned and what do you
feel like? Just real briefly, what do
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you feel like you've learned? What do
you feel like you have yet to like
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understand about the topic of demand
jin Oh man, this is good stuff. Yeah,
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so I actually literally just talked to
someone a few minutes ago and I was I
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was telling them, they asked me pretty
much the same question, they were
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telling me like, oh like what have you
learned and what are you still trying
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to focus on and all these things? And
I've learned so much. I've talked to so
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many different people, you know, I
talked to chris walker, I talked to um
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the letter gore recently which was so
valuable to me in so many different
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ways and you know, we're still on this
journey here, but I'm finally starting
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to kind of understand what demand
generation is, where it lies, kind of
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under brand marketing. I think that
everyone has a different definition for
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it. Um Everybody has a different place
where they put it, but kind of what I'm
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interested in learning moving forward
is more about products led growth. Um
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and this is something that I'm gonna be
talking about this coming week um with
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someone um about you know, how demand
generation works in these products led
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growth companies. And is this this kind
of a self service model? Right. Product
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led growth. So does that kind of defeat
the purpose of demand generation? Does
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it still exist in these roles? Does it
completely like just reduce this role?
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So I'm really excited to dive into that
a little more and yeah, I'm excited. So
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it's fantastic. I mean, I think all
good marketing starts with a fantastic
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product, right? And of course there's a
whole school of thought around
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marketing when it just comes to The
product and how to market said product.
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Right? Yeah, 100%. Well, you know,
we're talking about demand jin today
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and I'm excited to talk to you because
you and I have both been really
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studying this for the past couple of
weeks. And one thing you and I have
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talked about in this industry of demand
generation, something that's been a
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trend lately has been to kind of
nurture and channels aside from email
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and, you know, channels like linkedin,
social media, facebook, twitter,
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whatever it is, those are really
difficult to measure. And some people
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are even saying that email marketing is
pretty much useless at this point, um
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and I know you have a strong opinion on
this, so is this something you agree
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with or disagree with? Usually want to
hear people talking about demand
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generation, they're usually talking
about like all this stuff you're doing
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on the very forefront or what they call
the top of the funnel, right? All the
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people who aren't yet aware of you,
you're trying to make them aware of you.
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I mean Rudy said last week that it's,
it's kind of a point of getting people
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to even know you exist out there, even
if you're not there, not sure what you
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do, like trying to help them understand
where you are or that your brand name
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even exists. So I'm like, that's not a
bad way to look at it. And then
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furthermore, trying to get them to
actually want what you offer or
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understand what you have and then want
what you offer that's generating demand.
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I've heard marketers call that
engineering desire or whatever, like
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phrase that could try to like put a,
like a trademark on and just call it
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their own thing as if they invented it,
right? There's so many terms tossed
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around. It's one of the funny things
about demand, gen, it's like I've heard
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this talked about in so many different
ways and still a marketer coming from
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more of a B two C space. I'm still like
with you trying to understand the
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terminology around B to be almost feel
like there's way more terms around
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there that people are throwing around
the dimensions kind of one of them. Now
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when it comes to email marketing,
that's where I consider, it's like
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where the middle of the funnel is where
demand jin isn't playing as much and
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I'm not gonna lie. Like some people
throw some shade on email marketing
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like oh we don't need it like UNGH ate
everything. Like why even capture aly
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just like just keep generating demand
until they show up at your front door
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begging for the solution. I'm like come
on guys like you can still invite them
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over. And I was telling even Leslie
last week that I feel like a lot of
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people that are just purist when it
comes to demand gen is they like to
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throw a huge party a great party and
its for free. So when they invite
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everybody to the party and they have a
little V. I. P. Section where they
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might charge the money to be in and
they just put up a sign V. I. P.
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Section and they're like well when
people are ready to come to the V. I. P.
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Section, they'll show up at the door
and we'll let them in once they pay.
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And I'm like well like I'd still be
sending some people under the crowd
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telling them about it and maybe trying
to invite them over, maybe get some
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some refreshments by the V. I. P.
Section, you know, trying to get them
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closer into proximity of getting in
there. But the purists would say that
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that would be that you shouldn't do
that, that it's incorrect, that you
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clog up your pipeline doing that, and
that's kind of like this middle part of
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the funnel, right? They almost go after
the top and after the bottom, and I'm
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like, man, I think there's a lot of
room for the middle, right? And that's
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what hubspot is all about, and I
actually still think it works, it works
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remarkably well, at least a lot of
campaigns I did, and be to see it works
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remarkably well and still to this day
it's working for sweet fish media and
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we have some campaigns that James
Carberry actually set up like a couple
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of years ago with emails he wrote that
are still working well. So I'd still
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say emails, emails, alive, emails. Well,
even the kind of prove that it's
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working well. We did a survey recently.
We actually haven't released the
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results of this massive survey. We
interviewed 100 B two B marketing
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leaders and what I discovered is that
the two main channels they're using to,
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that that are killing it for most of
them. So these are people we've had on
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the show and then asked and had
qualitative feedback from as far as the
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two main channels that they're killing
it with is search engine marketing for
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top of the funnel and email in their
train for the middle of the funnel. So
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I'm like, hey, I know we're all
throwing shade of these, these two
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things, but I'm like, that's still
working for most people. And I still,
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and I think the reason why chris walker
and like his crowd are generating so
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much attention is because they know
search engine marketing and email
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nurturing isn't enough, right? It's
working, but it could be better. And
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I'm like, man, but I wouldn't change it.
I would keep them running if you
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generate more top of the funnel
activity and still have a strong email
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nurture campaign going, then you can
just get more people into the middle of
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the funnel. So that's kind of my
general philosophy and why, I think
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it's still like a needed component. Hey,
everybody Logan with sweet fish here.
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If you've been listening to the show
for a while, you know, where big
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proponents of putting out original
organic content on linked in. But one
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thing that's always been a struggle for
a team like ours is to easily track the
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reach of that linked in content. That's
why I was really excited when I heard
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about Shield the other day from a
connection on, you guessed it linked in.
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Since our team started using Shield,
I've loved how it's led us easily track
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and analyze the performance of
Arlington content without having to
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manually log it ourselves. It
automatically creates reports and
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generate some dashboards that are
incredibly useful to see things like
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what contents been performing the best
and what days of the week are we
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getting the most engagement and our
average views per post. I highly
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suggest you guys check out this tool.
If you're putting out content on linked
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in and if you're not, you should be,
it's been a game changer for us. If you
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go to Shield app dot Ai and check out
the 10 day free trial, you can even use
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our promo code B two B growth to get a
25% discount again, that's shield app
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dot Ai. And that promo code is B the
number to be growth. All one word. All
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right. Let's get back to the show.
That's interesting. I saw someone argue
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this and I thought it was really funny.
They said professionals are required
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are not required to be on social media,
but they might lose their jobs if they
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aren't on email. And I thought that was
really interesting. So do you think
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that, you know, do you prefer one
method to the other or do you think
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that both of these can be used
anonymously together? I think they
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could definitely both be used together.
I mean, I think the more the more
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channels you can add, the better. The
problem is there's only so much
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bandwidth for most companies so you can
only do so many channels. Well, the one
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thing I like about emails, it's a lot
of email nurturing, right, is kind of
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set up and then you can let it run its
automated and a lot of people hate
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those drips sequences, but they're
working for me. I was even just before
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this, this interview, I pulled up sweet
fishes drip sequences. There's like a
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kind of like a lead magnet. You can
call it on the website like a BB
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podcasting guide of some kind and then
there's a probably like 10, 12 emails
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that follow up once you download the e
magnet and these emails get open rates
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of, let's see 70% 61% 54%, 52% 40%.
They always decrease as time goes down,
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but that's more attention. That's more
conversation. People often reply to the
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emails which are now coming from me and
we get a little conversation going,
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they're working pretty well and they're
introducing people to different aspects
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of who we are, what we're about. We
allow people and we write them all to
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look like plain text email, so they
look like they look like they're coming
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from us, but people get that they're
automated. It's not like we're tricking
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them. I just don't, I don't really like
the html ones that I know James doesn't
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either. We write them like we would as
if we were following up with them one
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at a time, but since people need the
same information over and over again,
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it tends to work to automate it. So
that's the advantage of email is that
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you can automate it versus podcasting,
which is another great middle of the
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funnel way to nurture people, right way
to build relationship way to get more
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time and attention, or essentially to
get in front of them more often, you
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can't automate that you have to
continually put out new podcast, like
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the one we're working on right now,
right? You can't put that on a drip
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sequence nearly as well as you can with
an email. Absolutely. You know, sales
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and marketing professionals do get
really bombarded with hundreds of
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emails a day and a week and you know,
you really kind of have that one shot
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there to get them exposed to your
message. So what do you feel is the
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proper way to nurture via email? And
what do you think marketers who are
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currently doing this tend to get wrong?
I usually try to build their, it's
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almost like you're trying to build a
bridge. So you have to consider at what
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point are they starting from, like what
have they been exposed to? Likely
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already by the time they get into the
email nurture sequence, Like what did
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they, why did they request it? And how
do you deliver that as soon as possible?
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And it's good? And then where do you
want them to go now? Might they might
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not be able to jump all the way from
where they started all the way to sales.
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Right? And that's the whole
metaphorical funnel that we're talking
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about, like what next baby steps, But I
like them to achieve by the end. And
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how do I build kind of a bridge of
content on the way there. Um Starting
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with what they're interested in and
ending a step closer to where I want
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them to go. It could be a progression
and as far as the emails go, it could
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be that you're delivering content and
every single email and you have a
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little P. S at the bottom maybe with a
time bound offer of some kind that's at
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the bottom of every single one. And
it's the same, there's a number of
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different ways to do it. But like I
said once you build it you can kind of
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set it and forget it and let it run and
see see how it goes. You can even split
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test at some some people down one way,
send some people down another and then
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pick a winner whichever one got more
people to head to the side where you
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wanted or the to the end goal that you
wanted them to get to. And that's kind
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of like classic email nurturing one on
1 is build these little journeys for
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people to go on so you can follow up
with them depending whether they
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respond or don't respond. You could try
to sweeten the deal if they don't
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respond after a while. That's what I
love about. You can build these very
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simple or sophisticated campaigns to
deliver the best content to the right
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person at the right time. Yeah. One
thing I want to dive into with you is
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can we just talk for a second about the
word nurture? Because this is something
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that we've been using a lot and this is
something that I've seen a lot on this
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journey and kind of going back to
basics here. It's just an interesting
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marketing term that everyone uses so
frequently. But what are you really
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trying to accomplish when you say like,
oh, we want to nurture? Like we want to
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do this, we want to have a nurture
email campaign or whatever it is. What
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do you mean by that? So you have to
think about what? It's not nurturing is
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not selling, right? That's what we're
trying to avoid. That's what we used to
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do. And like, outbound marketing was
just send a postcard that was a
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straight sell. Like, hey, do you have
this problem? Because we got a solution,
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you should come check it out. There's a
deal going on right now. Yeah, that's
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not if it sounds like that, it's not
nurturing, You're just straight
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pitching. Um Gary V talked about it in
his book, jab, jab, right hook, right?
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So nurturing is essentially the jabs,
it's the service. It's the, it's the
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thing that you're doing to endear them
to you in some way and honestly just
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helping them, just being helpful or
being entertaining or being
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inspirational to them. It's delivering
content that's of use to them whether
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or not they use your product, you are
serving them with wherever they're at
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in their stage of the journey. On
whatever topic it is. Right? If they're
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exploring uh a new email service, like
a G suite or a Microsoft office or
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something like that, like where they at
and discovering the capabilities, right?
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Or are they just exploring new options
out there? Are they thinking about new
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productivity for the organization,
which would be like really high level,
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Are they actually doing price
comparisons between different tools?
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Now, if they're an I. T. Director where
they at in the journey and how can you
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best serve them? That's nurturing is
giving them information that could
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equip them or entertain them or a
little bit of both like on their way to
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helping them accomplish their job.
Fantastic dan. I have to put you in the
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hot seat a little bit here. Um can you
share based on your experience the past
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couple of weeks and based on the
interactions you've been having on
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linkedin? How would you describe demand
generation in your own words? I'm still
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trying to form my opinion on this as as
you are, but even just listening to
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multiple people on our own podcast that
you've interviewed talk about it. And I
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think I heard 11 thing that chris
walker said recently that kind of like
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squared it up well for me. Um and he
juxtaposed demand gen with generating
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demand and capturing demand. And that
really helped clarify it a lot for me
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because it separates some activities,
because oftentimes when I've heard him
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define it, it's a little bit too broad.
It's almost like it's like almost all
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of marketing and he would say like all
their strategic marketing, all the
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stuff they essentially the executive
team lines up as far as like what's our
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mission, where we going, what's our
major demographic, what's our product,
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you know, what's the price points?
Those are like big picture strategic
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decisions that get made, where usually
marketers, most marketers aren't even
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included in those decisions you, most
marketers just get to essentially do
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demand jin which is almost like all of
us like, so demand gen is all of our
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jobs. Um that's a little bit too broad.
It's a little bit too squishy because
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it doesn't, I don't feel like it fits
well with A B. M. I don't feel like it
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fits well um with a lot of the lead gen
tactics, but if you juxtapose it with
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generating demand versus capturing
demand, it kind of fits a little bit
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more nicely. It's a little bit closer
to branding, but it's less, it's more
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tangible than branding. It's a little
bit more tactical than branding. It's
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somewhere between like legion and brand,
somewhere, you know? And then A B. M.
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Kind of has its own little separate
camp somewhere totally. Yeah, where I'm
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at right now, I'm trying to figure out
and place it even in my own mind, I
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think different people have different
definitions for demand jin. Um but I
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think it's a useful word and honestly
it kind of describes itself, right?
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You're generating demand, you're
creating demand, you're helping people
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want something that they didn't know
they wanted, right? Which is kind of
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the game of marketing in the first
place, totally. Yeah, I was actually
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just talking to someone earlier today
who when I asked this question, you
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know, how do you define demand
generation? They said, well personally
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I look at it completely differently.
Demand generation is something entirely
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different than generating demand and I
was like, that's really interesting. So
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I'm excited to kind of dive more into
that because that's, that's a new term
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for me. So awesome. Well dan, this has
been so, so insightful, I've learned so
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much from you in my time here at Sweet
Fish and on this journey in general and
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I'm really excited to see how we close
out this journey into demand generation.
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Where can listeners find you online if
they want to connect? Absolutely, I
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00:17:01.900 --> 00:17:06.700
love linkedin. So go to linkedin dot
com slash en slash digital marketing
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dan and connect with me there.
Fantastic! Thanks again for joining me
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here on GDP growth
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for the longest time. I was asking
people to leave a review of GDP growth
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and apple podcasts, but I realized that
was kind of stupid because leaving a
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review is way harder than just leaving
a simple rating. So I'm changing my
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tune a bit instead of asking you to
leave a review, I'm just going to ask
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you to go to be be growth in apple
podcasts, scroll down until you see the
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ratings and reviews section and just
tap the number of stars you want to
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give us no review necessary. Super easy
and I promise it will help us out a ton.
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If you want a copy of my book, content
based networking, just shoot me a text
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after you leave the rating and I'll
send on your way, text me at 4074 and I
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know 33 to eight.