Why Marketing Leaders Aren't Taken Seriously (& What to Do About It)

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:00.350 mhm 2 00:00:06.140 --> 00:00:10.090 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan Lyles with sweet fish media. I'm 3 00:00:10.090 --> 00:00:15.110 joined today by Mark stoops. He is attack CMO turned software ceo. He's 4 00:00:15.110 --> 00:00:20.480 currently the chairman and Ceo at proof analytics. He's also a podcast host of 5 00:00:20.490 --> 00:00:25.120 the Accelerating Value show. Mark, Welcome to the show. It is fantastic to 6 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:28.330 have you here today sir. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for having 7 00:00:28.330 --> 00:00:33.770 me. Absolutely. Well we're going to we're going to get more into your 8 00:00:33.770 --> 00:00:38.160 background as we go through the conversation today because really what 9 00:00:38.160 --> 00:00:43.480 we're talking about today is that CMos and marketing leaders really need a 10 00:00:43.480 --> 00:00:47.230 shift in their perspective. Um Oftentimes that they're, they're not 11 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:52.810 able to get that outside view of what their role really is and how they can 12 00:00:52.810 --> 00:00:57.500 best serve their Ceo and best served their organizations. So tell us a 13 00:00:57.500 --> 00:01:02.740 little bit about how you came to view the CMO and marketing leadership roles 14 00:01:02.750 --> 00:01:09.940 differently over, you know, especially uh recent years in your career. I got 15 00:01:09.950 --> 00:01:18.590 beat up quite a bit. Right. Um, I think that if we go back safe to like 2004, 16 00:01:18.590 --> 00:01:28.230 so I'm, I'm, I'm an hp. I'm leading the role in one of the four big business 17 00:01:28.230 --> 00:01:33.620 units. And I'm working a lot with Mark Hurd, who was the Ceo of HP at that 18 00:01:33.620 --> 00:01:38.410 time, went on to be the CO Ceo of oracle before. Unfortunately he passed 19 00:01:38.410 --> 00:01:47.700 away. Mark was a former sales guy, very customer facing Ceo and he would sit 20 00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:52.280 there and say, you know, I probably have more anecdotal evidence of the 21 00:01:52.290 --> 00:01:58.030 business impact that you're creating than you do, but that's not good enough 22 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:03.400 if you're going to ask me for a lot more money or if you're going to ask me 23 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:08.990 to protect you from a budget cut, which at HP meant a lot of times at board 24 00:02:08.990 --> 00:02:14.780 level conversation. He's like, I'm not, I'm not doing that without some 25 00:02:14.780 --> 00:02:22.110 analytics without some proof, small p proof. And you know, I I uh I remember 26 00:02:22.110 --> 00:02:27.120 being very frustrated about that. He was also, you know, I I don't really 27 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:31.430 mean this badly. I mean I I think it was inappropriate, but nevertheless 28 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:36.980 there he could really get in your face. I mean like literally in your face and 29 00:02:36.980 --> 00:02:41.120 there were a couple of times when he backed me up against a wall physically, 30 00:02:41.130 --> 00:02:47.390 you know, because he was really hot about this issue and and you know, it 31 00:02:47.390 --> 00:02:53.240 took me a while to kind of come around, but I what I really realized is that 32 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:59.000 just like anything else, we don't get to define our own value, right? We may 33 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:05.320 actually really truly be creating a lot of value. But if we're not able to 34 00:03:05.320 --> 00:03:11.850 prove it, if we're not able to help people see it clearly, then it doesn't 35 00:03:11.860 --> 00:03:17.230 exist in one sense, right? And so that's where I really started down a 36 00:03:17.230 --> 00:03:21.860 different path and I started saying, okay, what do I need to do to earn this 37 00:03:21.860 --> 00:03:27.860 person's trust? Not only in my abilities, but in my perspective and in 38 00:03:28.640 --> 00:03:34.730 how it how they ultimately come on board with what I'm doing right, I mean, 39 00:03:34.740 --> 00:03:39.500 it's not unlike a company that says, okay, we're gonna give the market, 40 00:03:39.500 --> 00:03:42.810 we're gonna give our investors annual guidance and then we're gonna come 41 00:03:42.810 --> 00:03:46.660 along every quarter and we're going to give a report out against that guidance. 42 00:03:47.140 --> 00:03:52.680 That's ultimately what makes the street trust you or not trust you in terms of 43 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:58.250 your execution. And it is exactly the same. Not only for CMos, but any part 44 00:03:58.250 --> 00:04:03.030 of the business. That's a good analogy. And I think, you know, you hit on the 45 00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:07.220 premise there, that just because your trusted and respected, you were you 46 00:04:07.220 --> 00:04:11.600 were trusted as a CMO at that point, you it's not that you had a horrible 47 00:04:11.600 --> 00:04:15.060 relationship even though it physically got in your face at times and got upset, 48 00:04:15.070 --> 00:04:20.519 you know, when you were asking for more budget, but disconnecting that from, I 49 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:25.690 need to be able to show the value that I'm driving. So I want to point that 50 00:04:25.690 --> 00:04:30.600 out as we talk about, you know, that pivotal point for you, Mark what really 51 00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:35.470 what really changed from there. So it was it was specifically there was 52 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:39.330 there's one situation you shared with me where you were asking for an 53 00:04:39.330 --> 00:04:43.600 increase to the budget, it really got heated and then you you know, you took 54 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:49.570 that to reflect on, okay, am I really making the case here and showing my 55 00:04:49.570 --> 00:04:55.560 value, proving my value um when I'm coming into these budget conversations, 56 00:04:55.570 --> 00:04:59.990 is that right? That's kind of the turning point there. And if I'm, if I'm 57 00:04:59.990 --> 00:05:03.220 right there, what we're kind of the next steps for you and your evolution 58 00:05:03.220 --> 00:05:06.580 as a marketing leader coming out of that. I mean, at that point I think, 59 00:05:06.580 --> 00:05:10.460 you know, I was probably pretty much just like any other marketer that's 60 00:05:10.460 --> 00:05:15.890 ever lived right in terms of my perspective on stuff. You know, I was I 61 00:05:15.890 --> 00:05:21.030 defined my excellence uh in many ways based on my team's ability to 62 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:27.920 orchestrate campaigns and to do that flawlessly. Keeping, keeping in mind, 63 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:32.800 you know, this is like 15, 16, 17 years ago, but orchestration has always been 64 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:38.420 really important to marketers, it's important today and it's I'm not saying 65 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:42.840 it's not important. What I'm saying is that that's all you've got, you've got 66 00:05:42.840 --> 00:05:47.630 a problem. And what I also started to really realize is I started really 67 00:05:47.630 --> 00:05:55.430 paying attention to how much politics I was having to play with the C suite 68 00:05:56.140 --> 00:06:00.040 because one of the things I started kind of figuring out, I had, I had a 69 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:05.790 coach, great coach at that time is there's an inverse relationship between 70 00:06:05.790 --> 00:06:11.810 how much politics you have to play in order to make people happy and all that 71 00:06:11.810 --> 00:06:16.440 kind of stuff as a CMO and the amount of data or analytics that you can bring 72 00:06:16.440 --> 00:06:22.480 to the table. So the more proof, small p proof that you have, the less you 73 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.410 have to kiss somebody's ass. That's really what it comes down to. And so I 74 00:06:26.410 --> 00:06:33.920 started really kind of rocking that um, with deeper and deeper and deeper 75 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:40.190 levels. Um, and and then at the same time I was I was being schooled 76 00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:47.280 literally right in and how analytics really works right. like so if you 77 00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:51.750 wanted to do this, how would you do it? And then what are the obstacles and 78 00:06:51.750 --> 00:06:54.800 what are the advantages and what can you do? And what can you, what we 79 00:06:54.800 --> 00:07:01.460 struggle with and all that kind of stuff. and the ensuing 10, 15 years was 80 00:07:01.840 --> 00:07:06.850 all about working that out operationally, which is actually the 81 00:07:06.860 --> 00:07:11.570 big hurdle for a number of reasons. So you mentioned there are a lot of 82 00:07:11.570 --> 00:07:15.670 marketing leaders, mark that, look at, okay, my ability to pull off great 83 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:19.520 campaigns and as you mentioned over the last, you know, several years, that's 84 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:23.470 changed in what's doable and what it takes and all those sorts of things and 85 00:07:23.470 --> 00:07:27.760 the, the tech is different. But um would you say that even with the 86 00:07:27.760 --> 00:07:34.150 advanced technology and marketers being able to do more with less, they still 87 00:07:34.150 --> 00:07:38.680 kinda have that old mindset of man. If I'm pulling off campaigns and 88 00:07:38.690 --> 00:07:43.570 orchestration is happening, then I'm successful. You think that's still in a 89 00:07:43.570 --> 00:07:48.620 lot of marketers minds front and center today? Yeah, I mean I see it a lot 90 00:07:48.630 --> 00:07:54.650 still to this day. I think also if you are wearing the badge of honor, wearing 91 00:07:54.660 --> 00:07:59.330 this phrase right, doing more with less as a badge of honor, with all the 92 00:07:59.330 --> 00:08:03.450 respect in the world, you have missed the point. You're supposed to be doing 93 00:08:03.450 --> 00:08:05.650 less with less and more with more. 94 00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:08.360 Um and 95 00:08:09.640 --> 00:08:16.360 I don't know a business leader personally who when, when uh presented 96 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:22.290 with the proof, that's something whatever that is, is accelerating their 97 00:08:22.290 --> 00:08:25.770 business, growing their business, making their business better in 98 00:08:25.770 --> 00:08:31.350 meaningful ways that they don't want to invest more in that thing. I mean, they 99 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.059 would be crazy not to. Now, there is a point, right? There's an S curve, 100 00:08:35.059 --> 00:08:36.559 there's an optimization curve. 101 00:08:37.640 --> 00:08:41.710 And you know, at some point you you hit the where the point of diminishing 102 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:47.910 returns kicks in, right? But most, most marketing teams are very far from that 103 00:08:47.910 --> 00:08:55.730 point. So if you can deliver the proof that you are really contributing and 104 00:08:55.730 --> 00:09:00.420 predictably say, and if you give me more, I can do more and I can bring you 105 00:09:00.420 --> 00:09:05.890 further up this curve assuming that your company can afford it, they're 106 00:09:05.890 --> 00:09:11.910 going to do it. And so I think a lot of cmos, I was certainly in this, in this 107 00:09:11.920 --> 00:09:17.390 uh place, big time. I had been beaten around the head and shoulders on this 108 00:09:17.400 --> 00:09:22.700 issue for so long. I had, you know, the budget issue, the budget cuts, they're 109 00:09:22.700 --> 00:09:29.960 very rare and small budget increases. That I lost sight of the fact that this 110 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:35.350 is true, right? That people want to invest more in things that are going to 111 00:09:35.350 --> 00:09:40.460 get them more and what they want to prove it. Yeah, absolutely. So, you 112 00:09:40.460 --> 00:09:44.250 know, that obviously set you on, well maybe not obviously, but you and I know 113 00:09:44.250 --> 00:09:48.050 each other and I know that that you know set you off on the path towards 114 00:09:48.050 --> 00:09:53.480 what you guys knew. And now at proof analytics, tell us a little bit mark 115 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:58.200 about what did you start to do? So you have this shift and said I really need 116 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:03.050 to be able to prove my impact historically and even better if I can 117 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:09.650 more confidently forecast and predict my impact with greater budget, then I'm 118 00:10:09.650 --> 00:10:14.460 really going to be in a much better position of not being looked down on as 119 00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:20.040 a marketing leader, but actually being looked to for advice, look looked to 120 00:10:20.040 --> 00:10:24.690 for solutions. Right? So how did you start to make that shift, you know, at 121 00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:28.400 the next stop in your career? What were some of the things that you did 122 00:10:28.400 --> 00:10:33.360 differently after you made this mental shift? Well, I mean, I have to say that 123 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:38.800 initially it wasn't the most fun I've ever had, right? But but I I may I 124 00:10:38.800 --> 00:10:43.140 started to make it all about the analytics. I was I was really pretty 125 00:10:43.140 --> 00:10:51.180 rigid for a while because I could tell that while a lot of C suite people and 126 00:10:51.180 --> 00:10:56.630 other people, other business leaders liked me. I thought I was really good 127 00:10:56.640 --> 00:11:03.920 at what I did, right? That wasn't the same as trusting me. I don't mean 128 00:11:03.920 --> 00:11:10.010 trusting me as a person. I mean trusting me that, that this is, you 129 00:11:10.010 --> 00:11:12.750 know, that I'm maximizing value, right? That's really what I mean. 130 00:11:13.940 --> 00:11:19.080 So it really kind of hurt my feelings to be perfectly honest with you. And 131 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:26.500 then it kind of pissed me off. And so I think a lot of the last 15 years for me 132 00:11:26.590 --> 00:11:28.060 has been a 133 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:37.580 quest for that thing, right? That trust that confidence, right? And the 134 00:11:37.580 --> 00:11:43.650 awareness of what marketing um could really do that that for the rest of it 135 00:11:43.650 --> 00:11:47.610 was sort of like a given, right? I mean, I could do the rest of it. I could 136 00:11:47.610 --> 00:11:53.680 build teams that did the rest of it, but it was so I believe that out of all 137 00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:59.860 the jobs in a modern organization that marketing is right up there at the top 138 00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:07.250 in terms of being awesome and yet it has the longest running feud with the 139 00:12:07.250 --> 00:12:13.570 business that that exists. I mean it's it's so well known and so lingering 140 00:12:13.580 --> 00:12:20.170 that there are huge punch lines between business leaders about it. Right. Right. 141 00:12:20.180 --> 00:12:24.790 So, I mean, what you're saying is you're kind of tag line right of tax 142 00:12:24.790 --> 00:12:30.350 CMO turned software ceo doesn't mean that you're anti marketing. Not at all. 143 00:12:30.740 --> 00:12:36.180 Not at all. I I um I mean look, let me just I'll be really candid about it. 144 00:12:36.190 --> 00:12:43.920 Right. I mean if if proof analytics was mainly about if if a customer brought 145 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:50.700 in proof analytics as a tool and the most common outcome was that it showed 146 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:55.240 that marketing was a bunch of bunk is not only would that not be a really 147 00:12:55.240 --> 00:13:01.730 going concern is business, but that would really suck. Right? I mean that's 148 00:13:01.730 --> 00:13:06.910 not fun. The cool part about it is and and if there's a headline here, the 149 00:13:06.910 --> 00:13:11.870 headline is this In the absence of analytics for the most part outside of 150 00:13:11.870 --> 00:13:17.550 CPG and retail and stuff like that. Most marketers have correctly intuited 151 00:13:17.560 --> 00:13:21.900 what works. Right. So we're talking about kind of like you go in there, 152 00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:27.730 it's kind of a classic 80, 20 split. So 20% of its not really performing or its 153 00:13:27.730 --> 00:13:31.960 underperforming or whatever. And you can identify it and you can fix it 154 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:38.240 Right? And you get to a point where you're rapidly optimized not only among 155 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:42.560 your marketing envelope, but against whatever market conditions you are 156 00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:48.460 having to deal with. Right? And if we saw anything out of 2020, it's that 157 00:13:48.460 --> 00:13:54.950 past is not prologue. It's not and data is all about the past. 158 00:13:56.040 --> 00:14:00.570 Right, analytics is what takes the data and runs projections that then you can 159 00:14:00.570 --> 00:14:06.900 confirm as the future becomes the present, Right? So that is that's 160 00:14:06.900 --> 00:14:12.280 really what this is all about. And you know, I have it's kind of interesting 161 00:14:12.280 --> 00:14:12.750 because 162 00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:18.580 when we go in and we talked to finance, for example, the finance guys always 163 00:14:18.580 --> 00:14:22.920 get what we do. They always get the product immediately, right? Because 164 00:14:22.920 --> 00:14:26.790 they're sort of trained to do that. And then you can kind of see this little 165 00:14:26.790 --> 00:14:30.950 glimmer in their eye, right there like sitting there going, oh, this is gonna 166 00:14:30.950 --> 00:14:37.380 be so great, right? We're gonna finally put the screws to marketing, right? And, 167 00:14:37.390 --> 00:14:41.450 and then the and the marketers are not real happy about this. And then the 168 00:14:41.450 --> 00:14:46.570 first analytics rollout and the mark, the finance team is sitting there kind 169 00:14:46.570 --> 00:14:51.560 of going, huh, This is actually a lot better than I thought it was going to 170 00:14:51.560 --> 00:14:56.260 be. What's the, what's the percentage breakdown? Is it half the time finances 171 00:14:56.270 --> 00:15:02.160 is surprised and marketing is like, look, see or is it 90% of like what's 172 00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:07.550 the breakdown that it goes this way? I would say, I would say it's, you know, 173 00:15:07.560 --> 00:15:12.670 again, the exception would be things like e commerce and anything where 174 00:15:12.670 --> 00:15:18.900 marketing is revenue, Right? So that would be a separate situation. But 175 00:15:18.910 --> 00:15:24.020 anything else, I would say it's damn near 100% right where everyone is 176 00:15:24.020 --> 00:15:29.590 shocked. And and if the truth is, you know, if we can just kind of be 177 00:15:29.590 --> 00:15:30.750 truthful for a second 178 00:15:32.040 --> 00:15:36.280 that marketers are shocked to, well, that's what I almost said something. 179 00:15:36.280 --> 00:15:39.690 And you know about, you know, the marketers either breathing a sigh of 180 00:15:39.690 --> 00:15:45.160 relief or I think I said, you know, they see. But I almost hesitated. Like 181 00:15:45.170 --> 00:15:48.360 that's probably not necessarily what they're saying, even if they are 182 00:15:48.370 --> 00:15:52.740 breathing a sigh of relief and they're excited about what they see. So they're 183 00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:56.410 a little bit surprised as well, at least in your experience going through 184 00:15:56.410 --> 00:16:00.410 this process of peeling back the curtain for financial market. Well, if 185 00:16:00.410 --> 00:16:08.200 they, so if they, so I think that they wouldn't be as freaked out sometimes if 186 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:15.670 they were confident. So uh one of the best video calls I ever got right was 187 00:16:15.670 --> 00:16:24.940 from a CMO uh really great lady who calls me up on facetime, right? And 188 00:16:24.950 --> 00:16:30.160 she's sitting in her office smoking a cigar. No kidding, right. I mean for 189 00:16:30.160 --> 00:16:36.540 real, she's smoking a cigar and she's celebrating the first crank out of the 190 00:16:36.540 --> 00:16:42.160 analytics from proof. And, and she's like, you know, um, 191 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:50.510 bottom line is, I didn't know for sure, but she goes, I'm so excited that in 192 00:16:50.510 --> 00:16:56.080 the absence of all of this, that you've brought to the table that we got it as 193 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:01.800 right as we did, right? And she was, she was probably in the upper echelon, 194 00:17:01.800 --> 00:17:07.790 right? She was kind of like more like 85, 15, almost 90 10 in terms of 195 00:17:07.800 --> 00:17:13.579 getting her spinned correct. Right? And so I just think that that's that's one 196 00:17:13.579 --> 00:17:17.390 of my favorite parts of this whole thing. Right. And I think that a lot of 197 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:23.420 people see analytics and they see the C suite as a bunch of judges in black 198 00:17:23.420 --> 00:17:31.140 robes, right? Who are basically saying you suck. Right. And it doesn't, I'm 199 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:35.770 here to tell you it doesn't have to be that way. I mean I, my last big CMO 200 00:17:35.770 --> 00:17:39.120 role was at Honeywell, Honeywell Aerospace. 201 00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:45.560 My whole comp package was tied to the analytics that we brought to the table 202 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:51.340 and I did really well on that. Right. And so I would, I would encourage 203 00:17:51.350 --> 00:17:57.030 everybody to say to themselves, you know what, maybe it's time that we 204 00:17:57.030 --> 00:18:03.630 actually did something different, Right? And it's not about, hey, I'll sell you 205 00:18:03.630 --> 00:18:09.990 a license, right? It's about, I can, I can transform the level of enjoyment or 206 00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:14.760 I can't, but the analytics will, will transform the level of enjoyment you 207 00:18:14.760 --> 00:18:18.320 get from your profession. Certainly sounds like it from that facetime video 208 00:18:18.330 --> 00:18:22.760 that you've got, that Facetime call. That's fantastic. Well speaking of 209 00:18:22.770 --> 00:18:27.620 doing things differently, Mark, if you were a CMO today and for cmos or 210 00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:32.430 marketing leaders listening to this, what would you recommend that they do 211 00:18:32.430 --> 00:18:36.560 differently? There were a couple of things as you and I have chatted before 212 00:18:36.570 --> 00:18:41.770 that I think are worth mentioning here, uh spending more time with the C suite, 213 00:18:41.770 --> 00:18:45.030 which you kind of alluded to there. They're not these judges in black robes, 214 00:18:45.030 --> 00:18:50.620 You need to change your perception. Um, and then not giving up on a Ceo that 215 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:54.010 quote unquote doesn't get it. Maybe let's take these in turn talk about 216 00:18:54.010 --> 00:18:57.440 spending more time with the C suite, what that looked like for you as a 217 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:01.680 marketing leader and what you see that look like for CMos that you work with 218 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:07.670 that have made this mental shift about their Ceo and the rest of the C suite. 219 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.960 While I think that those two things are inextricably linked, right? Because 220 00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:17.480 what and what you're really doing and spending time with with people is it's 221 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:21.230 just like any friendship you have, right? Or any great conversation that 222 00:19:21.230 --> 00:19:25.700 you've ever had or any great first date that you've ever had, you were focused 223 00:19:25.710 --> 00:19:31.270 on them. You weren't trying to sell anything least of all yourself to them. 224 00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:35.270 Right? You were expressing you were asking them a lot of questions. That's 225 00:19:35.270 --> 00:19:41.120 a that's a classic metric, right? If if if you're mostly asking questions of 226 00:19:41.120 --> 00:19:46.050 this other person, that's a good thing. I think that at the end of the day 227 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:53.420 marketing is so one of the great kind of ironic, farcical jokes about this 228 00:19:53.420 --> 00:20:00.520 whole situation is that whatever money you're spending on marketing and you're, 229 00:20:00.530 --> 00:20:03.860 we're presuming you're spending it well and all that kind of stuff. Right? 230 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:09.960 Then we're talking about the last thing in the company that should worry about 231 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:10.670 our lie. 232 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:18.050 And I'll tell you why it's because the same dollar is not only improving sales 233 00:20:18.050 --> 00:20:22.930 productivity, it's improving recruiting and retention. It's recruiting. You 234 00:20:22.930 --> 00:20:28.520 know, investor relations is improving all these things simultaneously now on 235 00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:33.270 different time lagged kind of situations, but it's all happening off 236 00:20:33.270 --> 00:20:38.990 the same money. Right? So the cool part about that is is that when you spend 237 00:20:38.990 --> 00:20:43.160 time with these leaders, you're helping all of them. Pretty much. 238 00:20:44.540 --> 00:20:50.340 You just got to figure out how they see it, what their biggest needs are and go 239 00:20:50.340 --> 00:20:55.970 there for them, right? I mean, and then be able to say, okay, you know what, 240 00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:59.920 this is, this is what we're gonna project here. this is what we think we 241 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:06.920 can do for you. And this is the value arc over time and space, and we'll 242 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.380 report back against how we're doing so again, this is like guidance and the 243 00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:16.170 and then the quarterly report, right? And that is that is really, really key. 244 00:21:16.170 --> 00:21:23.710 I think that the the other part to this is to realize that, so this is this is 245 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.180 a little hardcore, but I'll go with it. So we're all, we've all heard about how 246 00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:34.740 in a really, really negative situations, right? The abuser can the the abuse 247 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:40.980 becomes the abuser, right? And and that is part of what is going on here. And 248 00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:46.250 what I mean by that is, is that these business leaders are under an enormous 249 00:21:46.250 --> 00:21:50.880 amount of pressure to deliver to perform, right? And they are getting 250 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:56.520 hit in ways that a lot of times is not transparent to everybody else. And so 251 00:21:56.530 --> 00:22:01.140 if they feel like that you are not helping them right, they're gonna, 252 00:22:01.150 --> 00:22:05.670 they're gonna take it out on you, right? The crap rolls downhill. And so 253 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:11.360 I think that the more this isn't, by the way, if you view this as politics, 254 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:15.960 I would say that it's not, it's not politics, this is human relationships. 255 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.710 And this is about being able to say, okay, I really understand you. I really 256 00:22:20.710 --> 00:22:25.650 understand what's important to you as opposed to let me tell you about this 257 00:22:25.650 --> 00:22:30.330 cool new campaign and why, you know when we passed the hat at the C suite, 258 00:22:30.340 --> 00:22:35.470 you need to cough up several million dollars to co fund it, right? That's 259 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:39.660 not what I'm talking about. I love it. I think you're exactly right there, 260 00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:45.420 mark that they are really linked in changing your view of the rest of the C 261 00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:49.530 suite and spending more time with them, as you mentioned, not just you're not 262 00:22:49.530 --> 00:22:54.290 just saying, hey, you know, go play politics because as you said earlier, 263 00:22:54.290 --> 00:23:00.750 when you come asking questions, showing curiosity and proving your value, then 264 00:23:00.760 --> 00:23:04.720 the amount of time you need to spend, politicking actually goes way down, 265 00:23:04.730 --> 00:23:09.030 right? It's it's the opposite when that's all you have to draw on is, you 266 00:23:09.030 --> 00:23:12.540 know, the relationship building or politics could good or bad and 267 00:23:12.540 --> 00:23:17.030 indifferent, right? Regardless of what that looks like. You can, you can 268 00:23:17.030 --> 00:23:21.470 eliminate a lot of that when you approach it on a human level, 269 00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:25.410 connecting with those other members of the C suite and then just as 270 00:23:25.410 --> 00:23:29.790 importantly recognizing what's important to them and tying what you're 271 00:23:29.790 --> 00:23:33.520 doing to what is important to them and drawing that line. I think that's where 272 00:23:33.520 --> 00:23:39.280 a lot of marketers to go back to, you know, similar stories there either, I 273 00:23:39.290 --> 00:23:42.790 don't think they can do or they're afraid to because they're not quite 274 00:23:42.790 --> 00:23:46.600 sure if there is that direct line, even though, as you mentioned, a lot of them 275 00:23:46.600 --> 00:23:52.240 would into it. Yes, there is the line. I just I just can't show that, you know, 276 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.560 as you're interviewing a lot of marketers right now, is that kind of 277 00:23:55.560 --> 00:23:59.400 what you're hearing that? Yes, there is that line. I just don't feel like I 278 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:04.090 have the confidence to say yes, that that line is they're connecting what 279 00:24:04.090 --> 00:24:08.780 I'm doing to this business impact. You know, I think it's actually like a lot 280 00:24:08.780 --> 00:24:15.660 of startup founders, you feel like you can't expose your doubts safely, right? 281 00:24:15.670 --> 00:24:22.390 And so you end up delivering this highly curated representation of 282 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:27.670 whatever it is that you're doing, right. And I think that marketers do that a 283 00:24:27.670 --> 00:24:33.700 lot because they're they're inside deep inside their very insecure about this 284 00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:38.940 whole thing. Um, I think that part of the reason why they feel that way is 285 00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:45.490 that also they are not in many cases a T shaped talent. And what I mean by 286 00:24:45.490 --> 00:24:50.210 that is they go very deep, they have lots of expertise on marketing, right, 287 00:24:50.300 --> 00:24:52.560 particularly what I would call marketing execution, 288 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:58.580 but in terms of understanding the business, in terms of actually being 289 00:24:58.580 --> 00:25:03.410 able to convincingly engage with the business leader about the things that 290 00:25:03.410 --> 00:25:08.610 they care about. That's where it gets a little shaky. Not too long ago I was, I 291 00:25:08.610 --> 00:25:14.300 was invited to do an offsite with one of the largest recruiting firms in the 292 00:25:14.300 --> 00:25:20.960 world, um where the whole focus was on the modern CMO. 293 00:25:22.340 --> 00:25:28.270 And at the end this, this one person stood up and asked me this question, 294 00:25:28.940 --> 00:25:32.880 you know, hey, is there one thing, is there one thing that we can use to 295 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:38.850 identify a modern CMO? And I said, well, yeah, but you're not, you're not gonna 296 00:25:38.850 --> 00:25:45.800 like this a whole lot, right? But yes, the there is present them with a basic, 297 00:25:45.810 --> 00:25:51.180 straightforward financial statement and ask them to tell the story of that 298 00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:55.880 business based on what they read their right. And I said a lot of times they 299 00:25:55.880 --> 00:26:00.550 won't be able to do that. So, one of the things that I did, and I'm just 300 00:26:00.550 --> 00:26:04.200 saying this is a way of trying to help this, right, is 301 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:10.250 when I was still a CMO, I would put all my folks through finance for non 302 00:26:10.250 --> 00:26:15.350 financial managers courses at their local universities. I wasn't trying to 303 00:26:15.350 --> 00:26:20.260 turn them into us, you know, CFO, right? But I wanted him to do that. And then I 304 00:26:20.260 --> 00:26:27.020 also started running them all, all of them 100% including me through sales 305 00:26:27.030 --> 00:26:32.640 induction uh classes, right? So done about like when when your company on 306 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:37.520 boards, a new class of sales guys, right? And it's it's hell week. You 307 00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:41.700 know, it's usually an offsite in some hotel ballroom and it's just very 308 00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:48.120 traumatic or can be very traumatic but it is incredibly revealing and very 309 00:26:48.120 --> 00:26:52.380 bonding, right? And so you leave with all these relationships with sales guys, 310 00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:56.760 which is a really good thing. And you also really start to understand their 311 00:26:56.760 --> 00:27:02.740 world. And you also pick up selling skills yourself, right? These two 312 00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:11.890 things went a long way towards helping the situation because also if the C 313 00:27:11.890 --> 00:27:16.890 suite feels like that you as the CMO totally get it. But if they scratch one 314 00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:21.300 layer down and everybody that reports to you and that reports them doesn't 315 00:27:21.300 --> 00:27:24.470 get it. This is also a problem. So important, then you lose that 316 00:27:24.470 --> 00:27:29.950 incredibility that that you've built up. That's great stuff, Mark to realize 317 00:27:29.950 --> 00:27:34.570 that how you see something totally depends on the chair that you're 318 00:27:34.570 --> 00:27:39.540 sitting in. And if you can put put yourself in their chair, not only does 319 00:27:39.540 --> 00:27:43.640 that empathy building, but also it will change your own perspective. And so you 320 00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:49.350 will realize, wow, you know what I you know like so a business leader gives 321 00:27:49.350 --> 00:27:53.340 you a marketing budget, guess what? They see that as an investment deal. 322 00:27:53.350 --> 00:27:59.530 They also are very, very concerned that the opportunity cost attached to that 323 00:27:59.530 --> 00:28:04.180 investment deal will cut against them. In other words, that when it comes down 324 00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:08.990 to it, they won't be convinced of the value. And so they will not only lost 325 00:28:08.990 --> 00:28:13.450 that money and spending it with you, right? But they also have lost what 326 00:28:13.450 --> 00:28:19.110 they could have spent it on somewhere else. Right? That is I'm not we're not 327 00:28:19.120 --> 00:28:23.130 judging the fairness run fairness of all this. We're saying this is the 328 00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:26.800 reality, this is where this is where leaders are in their heads on this 329 00:28:26.800 --> 00:28:32.270 stuff. Absolutely. I think it goes back to to sum up what you just said there. 330 00:28:32.270 --> 00:28:36.220 I think you told it to me really well last time where you sit determines 331 00:28:36.230 --> 00:28:41.170 where you stand. Um and begins with that empathy of putting yourself in 332 00:28:41.170 --> 00:28:45.780 that other seat in that sales leader seat in that ceo seat. Um And I think 333 00:28:45.780 --> 00:28:49.410 you laid out some really practical things in the CFO seat, right? Going 334 00:28:49.410 --> 00:28:54.070 through yourself and uh the rest of your team through some financial 335 00:28:54.070 --> 00:28:59.230 literacy courses and finance courses so that they can look at A. P. And L. They 336 00:28:59.230 --> 00:29:04.320 can look at those things and actually be able to tell the story of the 337 00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:08.220 business um in a way that a lot of marketers can't these days, also like 338 00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:12.680 what you said about, um you know, not only empathizing with sales, but um 339 00:29:12.690 --> 00:29:18.130 bolstering your sales, acumen your sales skills and building relationships 340 00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:23.110 with sales. If you can find ways to get your marketing team involved with uh 341 00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:26.610 new sales, onboarding and training, even if it's a little bit traumatic, 342 00:29:26.620 --> 00:29:30.090 but you know, we started this interview saying, you know that you got beat up 343 00:29:30.100 --> 00:29:34.140 and you learn some lessons from it. So maybe a little bit of trauma is a good 344 00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:38.300 thing, right? It's all, it's all about what you do with it. Exactly, Exactly. 345 00:29:38.300 --> 00:29:41.570 Well, this has been a fantastic conversation mark for anybody who wants 346 00:29:41.570 --> 00:29:45.160 to stay connected with you, learn more about what you and the team at proof 347 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:49.610 analytics are up to or find your podcast. What is the best way for them 348 00:29:49.610 --> 00:29:54.040 to take action on any of those three? Well, I would say that to reach me. I 349 00:29:54.040 --> 00:29:57.800 mean I'm I'm pretty active on linkedin. In fact, some people would say I'm very 350 00:29:57.800 --> 00:30:03.920 active on linkedin. So uh so I would reach out to me there um if you want to 351 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:08.000 find our podcast, it's it's called Accelerating Value. It's on all the 352 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:14.210 major platforms. So it's super easy to find. Um there's some great interviews 353 00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:19.480 with people like Sandra bahsrah, right? That, you know, I mean people who are 354 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:25.270 just really brilliant. And so what we don't really talk about like their day 355 00:30:25.270 --> 00:30:27.170 job, right? We talk about 356 00:30:28.340 --> 00:30:33.290 how they see value creation, how they think about it, how they invest in and 357 00:30:33.290 --> 00:30:37.650 how they defend it, all that kind of stuff, Right? And so and we don't just 358 00:30:37.650 --> 00:30:41.330 talk to marketers, we talked to all kinds of leaders right? Because we're 359 00:30:41.330 --> 00:30:47.270 trying to really inspire a bunch of people to to think a little differently 360 00:30:47.840 --> 00:30:53.650 and move beyond the operational, which is really important into not even the 361 00:30:53.650 --> 00:30:58.620 strategic, it's it's really about a value mindset. It's about, hey man, I 362 00:30:58.620 --> 00:31:03.620 gotta I gotta return enough on my on that money to make it worthwhile for 363 00:31:03.620 --> 00:31:07.700 everybody else. Yeah, I think it ties back to something you said earlier 364 00:31:07.700 --> 00:31:11.670 about, you know when you get budget or you get an agreement from another 365 00:31:11.670 --> 00:31:15.660 department to share their budget on something that marketing is leading, 366 00:31:15.670 --> 00:31:19.410 they're really looking at that as an investment deal. And if you can make 367 00:31:19.410 --> 00:31:23.930 that shift in your mindset, it's gonna change how you actually execute on that, 368 00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:28.340 how you communicate with them, how you share progress updates, how you think 369 00:31:28.340 --> 00:31:33.470 about winning or losing in that. In that example, I imagine you already 370 00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:37.260 mentioned SAN Graham, You and I have talked multiple times offline about how 371 00:31:37.260 --> 00:31:42.450 much we admire him. Uh not only as a marketer in person, but any other uh 372 00:31:42.460 --> 00:31:46.130 interviews of accelerating value that have really stood out to you recently, 373 00:31:46.130 --> 00:31:50.000 if someone goes and finds your show one that you would recommend. Yeah. So 374 00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:56.120 actually, so julie Brown is at johnson controls, right? So actually kind of a 375 00:31:56.130 --> 00:32:05.760 competitor to Honeywell and julie did so well as a analytics Lead marketing 376 00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:12.260 leader. Guess what? She's now running all of business transformation at jOHNS 377 00:32:12.260 --> 00:32:18.140 controls, reporting to the Ceo. So it's not it's not that she's somehow escaped 378 00:32:18.150 --> 00:32:25.090 right from marketing. It's it's about the fact that what I mean if if if 379 00:32:25.090 --> 00:32:30.660 marketing isn't business transformation then what the hell is it? Right. I mean 380 00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:34.160 you're not only trying to transform the business that you're in, you're trying 381 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:38.400 to transform customers businesses. That's how much you believe in the 382 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:44.550 value property, right? So so you know she just leave it up, right? And she 383 00:32:44.550 --> 00:32:50.460 has some really really great insights right? Again on this T. Shaped kind of 384 00:32:50.460 --> 00:32:54.750 idea which I think is so important, so important for all of this is not you 385 00:32:54.750 --> 00:32:58.780 know, we've spent a lot of time in this conversation logon talking about all 386 00:32:58.780 --> 00:33:03.830 this in the context of being a CMO. But this is this is these are universal 387 00:33:03.830 --> 00:33:09.360 truths, right? It it doesn't matter if you go back 15 years, you go back 20 388 00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:14.850 years. So right after y two K. Guess who was going through exactly the same 389 00:33:14.850 --> 00:33:18.990 transformation that marketing is moving through today and did it just as 390 00:33:18.990 --> 00:33:23.550 painfully as marketing is doing it today. And that's enterprise I. T. 391 00:33:23.560 --> 00:33:30.060 Right? And it was when it was when the C. I. O. Stopped being a tech head and 392 00:33:30.060 --> 00:33:34.710 started being a business leader who happened to also be a tech head. Right? 393 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:39.820 That's when that transition was complete. And that's really what a 394 00:33:39.820 --> 00:33:45.600 modern CMO or a modern Cto or whoever it's all about as a business leader 395 00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:49.800 first. And then you've got the specialization, as you mentioned 396 00:33:49.800 --> 00:33:53.770 earlier talking about campaigns right? It's not that the orchestration of 397 00:33:53.770 --> 00:33:57.650 those campaigns is not important. The operations are still important. Kind of 398 00:33:57.660 --> 00:34:01.470 you know you've got a business leader who's wearing the I. T. Had he's still 399 00:34:01.470 --> 00:34:07.130 a tech head. But what he or she is first has changed. I think that's 400 00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.580 that's the lesson and I love the way that you rounded it out today. Mark 401 00:34:10.580 --> 00:34:14.060 that you know we're talking to CMOS and marketing leaders but this really can 402 00:34:14.060 --> 00:34:19.030 apply to every area of business in every area of life. Well, I highly 403 00:34:19.030 --> 00:34:23.940 encourage anybody who's not connected with you. Uh Check out Mark stoops, S T 404 00:34:23.940 --> 00:34:28.840 O U S E on linkedin. Check out proof analytics and we'll link to 405 00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:33.500 accelerating value uh their podcast in the show notes here, check out that 406 00:34:33.510 --> 00:34:38.960 episode from julie Brown. Once you find that subscribe, scroll to see julie 407 00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:43.199 braun's episode and check that out, uh it is a great one. Mark, thank you so 408 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.040 much for joining us on the show today. This is a blast. Thanks 409 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:52.409 is the decision maker for your product or service at BBB marketer. Are you 410 00:34:52.409 --> 00:34:56.620 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered 411 00:34:56.620 --> 00:35:01.830 becoming a co host of GDP growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top 412 00:35:01.830 --> 00:35:05.980 100 podcast in the marketing category of apple podcasts and the Show gets 413 00:35:05.980 --> 00:35:11.210 more than 100 And 30,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work of 414 00:35:11.220 --> 00:35:15.590 building the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our 415 00:35:15.590 --> 00:35:20.050 listeners. If you're interested, email Logan at Sweet Fish Media dot com.