1116: How to Build Your Marketing Function from Scratch w/ Roshan Cariappa

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.519 Are you struggling to come up with original content weekend and week out? Start 2 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:09.189 a podcast, interview your ideal clients, let them talk about what they care 3 00:00:09.230 --> 00:00:14.830 about most and never run out of content ideas again. Learn more at sweetphish 4 00:00:14.910 --> 00:00:24.460 MEDIACOM. You're listening to BB growth, a daily podcast for BB leaders. 5 00:00:25.019 --> 00:00:28.899 We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vannerd truck and Simon Senek, 6 00:00:29.219 --> 00:00:33.259 but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. That's because 7 00:00:33.299 --> 00:00:37.729 the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. Most of our 8 00:00:37.770 --> 00:00:42.130 guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, 9 00:00:42.210 --> 00:00:47.009 they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies in the world. 10 00:00:47.649 --> 00:00:50.280 My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet fish media, 11 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:54.200 a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of the cohosts of 12 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:58.479 the show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear stories 13 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:02.079 from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share the ups and downs 14 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:06.469 of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. Just getting well, 15 00:01:07.109 --> 00:01:15.189 maybe let's get into the show. Welcome back to BEDB growth. I 16 00:01:15.310 --> 00:01:19.019 am your host for today's episode, Nikki Idy, with sweet fish media. 17 00:01:19.420 --> 00:01:25.620 Guys I've got with me today roshawn hurry, Yapa whole. It's the marketing 18 00:01:25.819 --> 00:01:29.340 team at Vimo we shot. How are you doing a day? Hey, 19 00:01:29.420 --> 00:01:32.180 I'm doing well. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me, good 20 00:01:32.260 --> 00:01:34.569 man. I'm glad to hear it. So we're going to be digging in 21 00:01:34.209 --> 00:01:38.170 to something I haven't talked about as in depth on the show yet, then, 22 00:01:38.250 --> 00:01:44.930 that's how to build your marketing function in an early stage company, and 23 00:01:45.049 --> 00:01:47.879 so we're going to be digging into some of the metrics you should focus on 24 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.560 and what campaigns are going to work. Before we get into all of that, 25 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:53.200 Prishan, I would love it if you would just give us all a 26 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.239 little bit of background on yourself and what you and the folks at Bymo have 27 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:01.469 been up to these days. Okay, so, yeah, I'm Rushan and 28 00:02:01.629 --> 00:02:06.269 I've been the early stay it startups for a little over a decade now. 29 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:10.069 Previously, I was an entrepreneur. I set up a boutique digital firm called 30 00:02:10.110 --> 00:02:14.949 Wolf laps. Ran At for about four to five years now. I lead 31 00:02:15.069 --> 00:02:19.099 marketing at Bymo, and by Mo was a series be startup that is headquartered 32 00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:23.860 out of New York, which operates in the CRM space. Right. So 33 00:02:23.020 --> 00:02:29.340 I've primarily been in sales, product and marketing roles at early stage growth state 34 00:02:29.460 --> 00:02:35.210 startups and I've done the whole zero two one journey more than a couple of 35 00:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.969 times in my career. And Yeah, that's that's something that I'm very passionate 36 00:02:39.050 --> 00:02:44.360 about in terms of building functions, building teams and so on. Right. 37 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:47.479 So, do you want me to quickly define what that means to me? 38 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.520 What you know to one means? Yeah, yeah, it sounds like you're 39 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:55.120 reference in the the Peter Teo book. Hah Yeah, that's right. It's 40 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:59.990 a favorite of mine. Again, that I knew when I when I in 41 00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:02.789 offline, when I was looking at how the conversation is going to be framed 42 00:03:02.789 --> 00:03:06.110 up, I was like, Oh, okay, he's a man after my 43 00:03:06.150 --> 00:03:07.509 own heart. But yes, yes, for the folks listening, go ahead 44 00:03:07.509 --> 00:03:12.270 and talk about how that philosophy impacted you and what's meant to you. Yeah, 45 00:03:12.310 --> 00:03:15.780 so that's one of my favorite books and to me that cool. Zero 46 00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:19.099 two one thing is a metaphor for so many other things. Right, for 47 00:03:19.219 --> 00:03:22.780 sure. Yeah, I mean. So, what I mean by zero two 48 00:03:22.860 --> 00:03:24.659 one is, you know, when you're starting up and you don't really have 49 00:03:24.819 --> 00:03:29.889 much of a brand or you know as a marketer, or you're not really 50 00:03:29.969 --> 00:03:32.689 generating a lot of deeds, and this very little content to work with. 51 00:03:34.330 --> 00:03:38.250 So you're basically starting things from scratch, right, and the whole journey involves, 52 00:03:38.409 --> 00:03:43.400 like you know, one is to establish momentum, which is, you 53 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.400 know, build a build some sort of a brand, generate some leads, 54 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:52.879 hiding your team, basically that building your team to enable this and, most 55 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:57.550 of all, I think, making a tangible difference and building influence in the 56 00:03:57.669 --> 00:04:00.509 company, right, so kind of moving the needle for the company through whatever 57 00:04:00.590 --> 00:04:05.030 you're doing. So that you know. That is like a short summary of 58 00:04:05.150 --> 00:04:09.310 what I mean by going from zero one. Yeah, no, one. 59 00:04:09.389 --> 00:04:12.340 What's interesting about it, what I love about it is when, like you 60 00:04:12.419 --> 00:04:15.899 said, it's applicable in so many different ways. I read that book at 61 00:04:15.939 --> 00:04:20.540 a I was a startup that was trying to penetrate a legacy market, and 62 00:04:20.699 --> 00:04:25.449 so I took a lot of things away from it in terms of, you 63 00:04:25.529 --> 00:04:29.410 know, from a sales perspective. But the two I'm on now we are 64 00:04:29.649 --> 00:04:33.129 as really small sales team and we're taking on marketing functions, and so I'm 65 00:04:33.170 --> 00:04:39.480 really interested to hear how you talk about, you know, building those marketing 66 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:43.079 functions from from the ground up, because we're kind of having to do that 67 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:47.480 ourselves here. And so one of the things that you identify as one of 68 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:51.399 the things you need to do early on is understanding what metrics you should focus 69 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:55.269 on. Talk about that a little bit for us, sure. So let 70 00:04:55.310 --> 00:04:58.269 me back up a little bit, right. So, so I think on 71 00:04:58.389 --> 00:05:01.069 day zero, right, so you have like an endless dream stream of, 72 00:05:01.629 --> 00:05:04.509 you know, endless avenues that you could invest your time and at Port on. 73 00:05:04.870 --> 00:05:08.139 But you know, before that, I mean, what you should really 74 00:05:08.139 --> 00:05:11.899 do is figure out why you matter, right, and how you can help. 75 00:05:12.500 --> 00:05:15.579 So, in my opinion, and this is a very biased, you 76 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:18.819 know, entrepreneur opinion of mine, so, which is at all of marketing 77 00:05:18.899 --> 00:05:23.689 exists basically to make sales easy, right, I mean it can, it 78 00:05:23.850 --> 00:05:28.089 can vary too various degrees, basically. Right. So, on day zero, 79 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:31.649 what I would do is basically figure out how sales work, sales works 80 00:05:31.689 --> 00:05:35.920 for your enterprise, right, really figure out who the buyer is, how 81 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:41.079 are they experiencing the product up, product or service, and you know what 82 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:45.480 are the existing challenges in the buying process and how can you kind of smooth 83 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:49.949 in the whole process? Right, and that also involves understanding your business at 84 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:55.750 a very fundamental level. Right. So to me I mean most of the 85 00:05:55.829 --> 00:06:02.110 BWASEE ASS businesses belonging about two two buckets. So one would be the enterprise, 86 00:06:02.230 --> 00:06:06.019 which is the whole, you know, high ticket value, longsight sales 87 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:12.300 cycle, Bwa market, right, where you know you're typically looking at institutional 88 00:06:12.459 --> 00:06:15.899 buyers, looking at let's say, any s CV of a hundred cap words 89 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:20.209 or even a thirty care words, right, and we're a lot of the 90 00:06:20.250 --> 00:06:25.170 stuff that you do involves sales, enablement, product marketing and so on. 91 00:06:25.730 --> 00:06:30.209 Right. And you know the other spectrum of it, you have the sort 92 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:35.439 of short sales cycle, high velocity sales right, which which is, you 93 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:40.360 know, all of your ten twenty dollar products, even up to let's say 94 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:45.399 two thousand threezero products. Right, and you know fundamentally it requires a different 95 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.949 kind of thinking for both of these. So so that's a good place for 96 00:06:49.069 --> 00:06:56.509 you to start to fundamentally figure out what your company is doing. Rather and 97 00:06:57.149 --> 00:07:00.910 you know how you could kind of help that company move the Neal. Yeah, 98 00:07:00.069 --> 00:07:03.740 no, I love that. You sort the whole thing out taking a 99 00:07:03.819 --> 00:07:06.139 stance. You set it up like, Hey, this is a biased opinion. 100 00:07:06.180 --> 00:07:10.379 But the fact of the matter is, if what you said is true, 101 00:07:10.379 --> 00:07:13.899 right, which is you have to define why you matter, then you're 102 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:16.129 going to have to take some stances that are that are biased. You'RE gonna 103 00:07:16.129 --> 00:07:19.810 have to take some stances that may not be, you know, controversial, 104 00:07:19.850 --> 00:07:24.209 but it will certainly be uncommon. And that's how you that is how you 105 00:07:24.250 --> 00:07:29.009 figure out who you are. So this idea that all of marketing exists to 106 00:07:29.170 --> 00:07:33.360 make sales easy is is maybe not one that a lot of folks, you 107 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:39.040 know, live out, but when you're starting out, I completely understand how 108 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:43.160 that's got to be the way to go. So so thanks for backing us 109 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.750 up a little bit and frame in that up. Yes, it just to 110 00:07:45.870 --> 00:07:48.230 add to that, right, because that is a whole lot of Homo on 111 00:07:48.350 --> 00:07:51.430 the beginning, right, there's a whole lot of fear of missing out, 112 00:07:51.829 --> 00:07:57.069 which is that you know every day you will get to read about somebody who's 113 00:07:57.069 --> 00:08:00.579 doing something awesome, like it could be a type of content or could be 114 00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:05.060 some type of campaigns, right, and there is this whole temptation to dive 115 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:07.779 in head first and, you know, do a bunch of these things just 116 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:13.370 because. Right, right. But yeah, I mean it's really something that 117 00:08:13.490 --> 00:08:16.050 you had to figure out, like, you know, what is relevant to 118 00:08:16.089 --> 00:08:20.089 your business. I think that is step one in the whole journey ring hmm. 119 00:08:20.889 --> 00:08:22.529 You're right. I think that some of the the sexier things, the 120 00:08:22.610 --> 00:08:26.410 more fun things, are those projects that you said folks are wanted to, 121 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:30.720 you know, just dive into. And I'm not a marketer, so to 122 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:35.240 speak, but even I on Linkedin when I'm when I'm listening to these prominent 123 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.080 marketers that I look up to, your the Dave gear hearts of the world. 124 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:39.480 Right, I'm like, Whoa, that looks like fun. I want 125 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:43.389 to try that. So I totally get it. I totally get it. 126 00:08:43.470 --> 00:08:46.950 But what you're saying is you got to stay grounded in okay again, but 127 00:08:48.149 --> 00:08:50.149 why do we matter? But what is this function really about? And once 128 00:08:50.269 --> 00:08:54.860 you agree and commit to the idea that it's there to make sales easier, 129 00:08:56.340 --> 00:09:00.179 that's when you get into this idea of understanding what metrics to focus on. 130 00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:03.740 I really want our listeners to hear that from you and for my own selfish 131 00:09:03.779 --> 00:09:07.620 curiosity. What are those metrics that you think folks should be focusing on? 132 00:09:09.299 --> 00:09:11.250 So, as I mentioned, there like a couple of categories, right. 133 00:09:11.289 --> 00:09:15.929 So let's talk about, you know, the second category which I mentioned, 134 00:09:16.009 --> 00:09:18.970 which is like the low ticket value and you know, high velosity sales. 135 00:09:20.370 --> 00:09:22.929 Right. So here what I mean. You have to typically focus on creating 136 00:09:24.090 --> 00:09:28.120 like a large volume on top of the funnel. So you could think about, 137 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.679 you know, website traffic and then converting a personage of that, right, 138 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.440 so that you know, building that funnel out. So on Day zero 139 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.230 for me to kind of establish momentum would be to get people to know about 140 00:09:39.230 --> 00:09:41.990 me, right, to get people to come to my website and you don't 141 00:09:41.990 --> 00:09:46.190 know about my product, and then kind of step two would be to figure 142 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:50.470 out how I can get these people who signed up and subscribe or, you 143 00:09:50.549 --> 00:09:52.700 know, convert to obaying customer. Right. I'll be honest, I'm not 144 00:09:52.899 --> 00:10:00.340 entirely familiar with that category of businesses because I've primarily operated in the enterprise marketing, 145 00:10:00.659 --> 00:10:03.179 you know, side of things, right, where. You know, 146 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:07.889 again, these are long Bob sales cycles, so it could be four months 147 00:10:07.889 --> 00:10:11.970 or six months and it's not really like a sea, click and buy kind 148 00:10:11.970 --> 00:10:15.570 of an experience. So there's a lot of things that you have to do 149 00:10:15.730 --> 00:10:20.009 on the branding and the sales enablement side of things. Right. So one 150 00:10:20.049 --> 00:10:24.360 of the one of the metrics that's really relevant in that would be, you 151 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.679 know, things like I mean, to me the most most relevant metric would 152 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:31.240 be how you can collapse sales cycles. Right. So typically, I mean 153 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:35.159 if your sale cycles are like four to six months, can you kind of 154 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:37.710 you know, collapse that to buy about twenty thirty percent? You know I 155 00:10:37.789 --> 00:10:41.990 mean, because that's that's a real value to the company as well. Yeah, 156 00:10:43.029 --> 00:10:46.429 right, right, and I love that. So are you talking about 157 00:10:46.429 --> 00:10:48.750 from a marketing teams perspective, for because I understand a sales leader would be 158 00:10:48.789 --> 00:10:54.139 thinking about that, but they're their solution or their approach to that problem would 159 00:10:54.139 --> 00:10:58.340 be much different from the way a marketer would approach. Okay, how do 160 00:10:58.460 --> 00:11:03.059 we shrink a sales cycle? So are you talking about that being a function 161 00:11:03.580 --> 00:11:07.929 and responsibility of a marketing team when you talk about shrinking that that time? 162 00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:11.850 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So. I think one of the you know, 163 00:11:11.129 --> 00:11:15.529 one of the biggest pieces in this whole thing is aligning marketing with sales. 164 00:11:15.570 --> 00:11:16.649 Right. So, as I mental up front, you know, I 165 00:11:16.730 --> 00:11:22.080 mean all of marketing exists to make sales easy or incidental. Right. So 166 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:28.879 you will definitely see an overlap, and especially on the large ACV enterprise type 167 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.830 of marketing, you know that it's very it's a very sales led model, 168 00:11:33.909 --> 00:11:35.590 right. So obviously people are not going to come and let you know, 169 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:39.429 look at all of the beautiful content that you've written on a website and you 170 00:11:39.509 --> 00:11:43.029 know, get to experience a second later. Right. So it's and you 171 00:11:43.149 --> 00:11:48.820 know, really the destien making making is complicated as well, because a lot 172 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:52.220 of the times what I notice is, you know, I mean the decision 173 00:11:52.299 --> 00:11:54.860 may come may not even use the product afterwards. So there's there's really, 174 00:11:56.139 --> 00:11:58.940 you know, three or four levels of people that you have to talk to. 175 00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:01.210 So right from your CE level folks who who are going to like you 176 00:12:01.250 --> 00:12:05.490 a sign off on the contract, to the influencers, to the ID guys 177 00:12:05.649 --> 00:12:09.409 and you know, whole bunch of people, right, and ultimately you have 178 00:12:09.490 --> 00:12:13.009 to be relevant to the person who's using it on the ground. Right. 179 00:12:13.129 --> 00:12:16.360 So yeah, so it's fairly challenging and yeah, yes, of course there's 180 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:20.320 an overlap between what marketing and sales does. I think that that is so 181 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:26.759 key. Listen this idea that, you know, the decisionmaker right the same 182 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.350 our the VP of marketing, are the ones who are pulling the trigger when 183 00:12:30.389 --> 00:12:33.269 it comes to buying or who are doing all the effort for work. I've 184 00:12:33.350 --> 00:12:37.149 heard that before, but I haven't heard this idea of they're not the ones 185 00:12:37.190 --> 00:12:39.789 that are even using they're not even the ones that are using the thing. 186 00:12:39.950 --> 00:12:48.139 And so that even more drives home the importance of understanding what type of campaigns 187 00:12:48.259 --> 00:12:52.580 will work and what type of content will work if you're speaking to the person 188 00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:56.340 who is going to be using it, Aka the person whose life or job 189 00:12:56.419 --> 00:13:01.169 you're trying to make easier with what you're selling, versus the person who just 190 00:13:01.289 --> 00:13:03.889 has the power or, you know, the pain and the check book. 191 00:13:05.330 --> 00:13:07.889 I think that's huge. I'm glad that you that you framed it up that 192 00:13:07.009 --> 00:13:13.240 way. Okay, sorry, an example, you know, which is kind 193 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:15.759 of close to what I do right. So let's take see rams, for 194 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.600 example. So, see arms have been around for about a couple of decades 195 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.320 now, but you know, according to various reports, over a third of 196 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.750 these deployments fail right, and these are long deployments. I mean it takes 197 00:13:26.789 --> 00:13:31.230 many, multiple months or even you know, I've seen things go up, 198 00:13:31.629 --> 00:13:33.309 you know, eighteen months and twelve, you know, couple of years and 199 00:13:33.389 --> 00:13:37.309 so on and so forth. Right. So these are, you know, 200 00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:41.389 a lot of time, effort and investment goes into it and a lot of 201 00:13:41.500 --> 00:13:43.980 reports say that, you know what, a third of these deployments fail, 202 00:13:43.179 --> 00:13:46.580 but if you ask me, it's closer to a ninety person because if you 203 00:13:46.659 --> 00:13:50.220 really look at the strategic objectives being met, I mean they're not really being 204 00:13:50.259 --> 00:13:54.850 met right now. Why is this? Because, see, I'm still function 205 00:13:54.970 --> 00:13:58.049 as passive data basis. So if you ask all of the managers and the 206 00:13:58.129 --> 00:14:01.809 leaders who are signing off on the contracts, right, so, what do 207 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:05.370 they want to see? They want to see all of these beautiful reports and 208 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:09.559 boards and and stuff like that, but reality is that there is really nothing 209 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.360 in it for the sales person who's, you know, actually has to use 210 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:16.159 it. Right. So you mentioned that, you know, you are in 211 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.679 sales it. So how often do you, you know, go back and, 212 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.909 you know, say, put in all of this information? That from 213 00:14:24.909 --> 00:14:26.509 an activity, right, so, call from a call or from a meeting 214 00:14:26.549 --> 00:14:30.549 or even, you know, after this podcast so you're not going to go 215 00:14:30.710 --> 00:14:33.230 and, like, you know, spend pressures amount of time putting on putting 216 00:14:33.269 --> 00:14:37.629 in all of the information on a seatum, right. So so, yeah, 217 00:14:37.669 --> 00:14:39.539 I mean, so the user adoption is like really, really bad. 218 00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:43.700 So even some of the best see items, how about twenty five, thirty 219 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:48.580 percent adoption? Right. So there again, you know, Mente, it's 220 00:14:48.620 --> 00:14:52.850 a back it's a whole divergence between what really the person who is the decision 221 00:14:52.970 --> 00:14:58.250 maker wants and what someone who experiences the product wants. Yeah, that's huge. 222 00:14:58.370 --> 00:15:01.570 That is huge. But I want to I could ask you more and 223 00:15:01.649 --> 00:15:05.850 more questions about this just because you're your background, your experience in this lens 224 00:15:05.889 --> 00:15:09.279 itself to so much key insight. So I'll ask you two things. Give 225 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:13.799 us one more piece of parting wisdom for folks trying to make this zero to 226 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:18.519 one in marketing thing happen, and then we'll get to the part where I 227 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.990 get to pick your bright and see what you're putting in it as far as 228 00:15:22.230 --> 00:15:26.470 what the learning resources that that you're going to tell us about today. So 229 00:15:26.870 --> 00:15:30.750 start with your parting wisdom and then let us know what you're what you're reading 230 00:15:30.990 --> 00:15:33.509 and what's moving you these days. Sure, I'll break it down to five 231 00:15:33.629 --> 00:15:37.179 things, right. So if I want to, you know, look at 232 00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:39.860 it, I would summarize it this way. So, to begin with, 233 00:15:39.139 --> 00:15:43.340 I think you should focus on net positive momentum, right, don't really worry 234 00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:46.220 about, like, you know, the numerous things that you could do, 235 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:52.169 just really focus on what's relevant for Your Business and start moving in kind of 236 00:15:52.250 --> 00:15:56.169 a general direction of goodness, right, so you can immediately start having some 237 00:15:56.330 --> 00:16:00.850 impact on the sales and impact on your business as such. Step two would 238 00:16:00.850 --> 00:16:03.919 be to kind of prioritize the speed of execution. Right, do many things 239 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.080 that you think are relevant for a business just to figure out, you know, 240 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.720 if things work right. So I often tell my team that, you 241 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:11.919 know, hey, we're doing a bunch of these things just to just to 242 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.519 figure out, just to rule out things that don't work, you know. 243 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.789 So which brings me to the next step, which is to double down on 244 00:16:19.029 --> 00:16:23.990 what really works right. So I always believe in kind of taking calibrated risks. 245 00:16:25.470 --> 00:16:26.789 So I want to spend a little bit of time, little bit of 246 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:32.190 money on things to quickly figure out if they're element for us and then double 247 00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:36.700 down, really double down on what works for us right and build a caidence 248 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.100 around that. So the fourth thing that I would say is like really aby 249 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:45.539 test everything. Don't go don't go by opinions, don't go by you know, 250 00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:48.250 trends, don't go by things people tell you, because I think one 251 00:16:48.289 --> 00:16:52.409 of my favorite people, Naval Alkan, says that all of all of the 252 00:16:52.490 --> 00:16:56.730 advice that we have in the world cancels out zero fray. So yeah, 253 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:02.559 I mean really Ab test everything endlessly so that you know you can be as 254 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:07.359 efficient as possible with your resources, because again, you're lean your boats trapped 255 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.400 at this stage, right and just following this process, you can pretty much 256 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:15.430 scale anything right. So, whether it's product with it's marketing, what you 257 00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:18.869 know, any other function, but especially for marketing. That I feel the 258 00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:25.349 simply the universe of things that you could do right. The number of possibilities 259 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:27.910 are endless. So I would I would simply say these things sake. Yeah, 260 00:17:29.269 --> 00:17:30.779 perfect. I love the way that you laid that out and just sort 261 00:17:30.819 --> 00:17:34.859 of pulled the whole thing together for our listeners. I love when I'm able 262 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:38.700 to talk with someone that can deliver that kind of insight. So now that 263 00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:41.059 I've effectively picked a bread and see what I could get out of it. 264 00:17:41.099 --> 00:17:45.609 It's time for tell us about what you're putting in it. So we're Shawn, 265 00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:48.289 talk about a learning resource that you've engaged with here recently that's either, 266 00:17:48.609 --> 00:17:52.930 you know, informing your approach or this just that you excited these days. 267 00:17:52.769 --> 00:17:59.200 Okay, so I'm a big fan of SASTER and Jason Lemkin, so I 268 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.920 absolutely consume anything and everything that is on saster. I did not have a 269 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:11.119 background in SASS so simply my education has been, you know, just following 270 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:15.029 decent Lemkin on Quara into then thirteen, two on fourteen and, you know, 271 00:18:15.109 --> 00:18:19.109 even up until now. It's amazing how he can stay so relevant to 272 00:18:19.829 --> 00:18:22.509 you know, whatever you're doing on a on a daily basis. Right. 273 00:18:22.589 --> 00:18:26.430 So, you know, a lot of the Times I will read something, 274 00:18:26.470 --> 00:18:30.259 I'll see something and it's tough that I can execute the next day in office, 275 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:37.420 which is just amazing. And I also am influenced a lot by NAVALDA 276 00:18:37.460 --> 00:18:42.529 became, who I mentioned earlier. He has an amazing podcast and I would 277 00:18:42.970 --> 00:18:47.650 really urge people to check it out. Also, I'm a huge fan of 278 00:18:48.210 --> 00:18:52.890 Nicholas Talb. I think he changed my life, you know, just simply 279 00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:57.559 understanding what's Goin in the game is has been amazing for me. So these 280 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.079 are things that you know, I mean I kind of consume, of course. 281 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.400 You know I get all of my news and information from twitter and there's 282 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.759 just like a myriad number of things that, you know, I end up 283 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.470 reading on a on a daily basis. But yeah, if you were to 284 00:19:11.509 --> 00:19:15.150 ask me my favorites, these are these are the three of them. Right. 285 00:19:15.150 --> 00:19:19.869 So Jason Lambkin for Sass, Novalada Vicans, for anything business in life 286 00:19:19.950 --> 00:19:26.859 and, of course, Nicholas Talb for for for everything fish. Thanks for 287 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:30.579 Serain that with us. Thanks for telling us about what moves you. I 288 00:19:30.819 --> 00:19:33.299 too am getting a lot of my information from twitter. Sir, shout out 289 00:19:33.339 --> 00:19:37.660 to twitter members of my life. Question for you, which is I know 290 00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:41.250 that folks who are listening, just like me, have become fast friends of 291 00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:42.849 yours, are going to want to know how they can connect with you to 292 00:19:42.930 --> 00:19:47.609 tell us how can people keep up with you? Okay, so I am 293 00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:52.690 on twitter and Linkedin. I post almost, you know, at least two 294 00:19:52.730 --> 00:19:56.279 or three times a week on Linkedin. You can find me at Russian cuddy 295 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:03.000 UPPA, so that's our O. S H and space CRI Apba. All 296 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.799 you could just search for why more and I'm sure I'll show open the feed. 297 00:20:07.390 --> 00:20:11.869 That's V by Mo right and on twitter I'm carrying out the blues. 298 00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:18.190 So that's see, are right, Geot D E B U S. I 299 00:20:18.349 --> 00:20:22.980 love that handle. Thank you so much. There's so much, like I 300 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:26.380 said, with your experience and and you're willingness to take a stance and really 301 00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:30.579 talk about these things with passion, that I'll likely ask you to be on 302 00:20:30.619 --> 00:20:33.660 the show again. This has been great. Thank you so much for Shawn. 303 00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:36.930 Talk to you soon. Hey, this was a lot of fun. 304 00:20:36.970 --> 00:20:42.410 Thank you so much for having me. We totally get it. We publish 305 00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:45.970 a ton of content on this podcast and it can be a lot to keep 306 00:20:45.970 --> 00:20:51.039 up with. That's why we've started the BB growth big three, a no 307 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:56.000 fluff email that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. 308 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:02.319 Sign up today at Sweet Fish Mediacom big three. That sweet fish Mediacom 309 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:03.880 Big Three