1138: How Education Drives Growth w/ Aashish Dhamdhere

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:05.639 Looking for a guaranteed way to create content that resonates with your audience? Start 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:10.589 a podcast, interview your ideal clients and let them choose the topic of the 3 00:00:10.710 --> 00:00:15.109 interview, because if your ideal clients care about the topic, there's a good 4 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:18.989 chance the rest of your audience will care about it too. Learn more at 5 00:00:19.030 --> 00:00:27.460 sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for 6 00:00:27.579 --> 00:00:31.820 B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary vanner 7 00:00:31.859 --> 00:00:35.659 truck and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our 8 00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:40.689 guests. That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 9 00:00:41.289 --> 00:00:44.689 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. 10 00:00:44.929 --> 00:00:49.929 They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing be 11 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:53.600 tob companies in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder 12 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:57.359 of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also 13 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:00.880 one of the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and 14 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.590 marketing leaders, you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. 15 00:01:04.030 --> 00:01:07.430 Will share the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over 16 00:01:07.469 --> 00:01:19.219 the world. Just getting well, maybe let's get into the show. Welcome 17 00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:23.620 back to be to be growth. I'm your host for today's episode, Nikki 18 00:01:23.700 --> 00:01:26.340 Ivy with sweet fish media. Guys, up that with me today as she 19 00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:32.340 stem dairy, who is by ex president of marketing at skill jar. Ashish, 20 00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:34.969 how you doing today? Thank you, thanks for having me. It's 21 00:01:34.209 --> 00:01:37.930 great to be on the show. Yeah, I'm excited, guys. We're 22 00:01:37.969 --> 00:01:42.769 going to be talking about how education drives growth, and that's both company growth 23 00:01:42.890 --> 00:01:47.049 and career growth. So I'm excited a really big game. But before we 24 00:01:47.129 --> 00:01:49.400 do, before we get into all of that, as she said, love 25 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:52.400 it, and you would just give us a little bit of background on yourself 26 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:55.439 and what you and the folks at still jar have been up to these days? 27 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.439 Fantastic. Yes, so I don't marketing here at skill jar, and 28 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:05.469 skill jar is the leading customer training black farm and what we do is health 29 00:02:05.590 --> 00:02:09.590 companies, accelerated product a option and increase your attention. We work with companies 30 00:02:09.909 --> 00:02:14.909 like tablow, Zen, desks, Mart, Sheet Cisco and we have them 31 00:02:14.990 --> 00:02:20.180 deliver just beautiful customer experiences that are back by data. Essentially, we give 32 00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:24.020 you all the team tools that you need for customer training and enablement and you 33 00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:29.539 can use those two on board engage and retain your customers. So that's a 34 00:02:29.580 --> 00:02:34.370 little bit about skill. Jar. We're based in Seattle and I'm excited to 35 00:02:34.449 --> 00:02:37.969 have the conversation today. Yes, me too. I I hadn't really have 36 00:02:38.210 --> 00:02:39.689 haven't had anybody that does exactly what you got to do. You on the 37 00:02:39.889 --> 00:02:43.969 on the show yet. So think furling in that out for us. I 38 00:02:44.050 --> 00:02:49.159 think it's great to be bringing something a little fresh to our listeners and freshness 39 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:53.240 in, like I said, like you mentioned this idea of education and what 40 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:55.879 you guys do a little bit different. They're going to be talking about today, 41 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:00.629 but there is a common threat, which is we've DEATA education drive growth. 42 00:03:01.629 --> 00:03:06.750 So give us a quick overview of what can tell you, as to 43 00:03:06.830 --> 00:03:09.030 write the piece that you wrote about this a while back, and why you 44 00:03:09.069 --> 00:03:13.900 think this is important. Absolutely. You know, in general, what I 45 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:19.860 find is when you work at a startup, it's just a very fertile environment 46 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.539 for you to grow your career and a key driver of that is curiosity. 47 00:03:24.379 --> 00:03:30.090 If if you're curious, that drives learning and that drives growth. A lot 48 00:03:30.129 --> 00:03:32.689 of growth in any company, it doesn't really matter how big the company is, 49 00:03:34.409 --> 00:03:38.409 happens in the cracks between departments. So this is where you don't really 50 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:40.090 know who owns it. Could be owned by sales, by marketing, my 51 00:03:40.129 --> 00:03:46.599 customer success, and if you find opportunities like that you can shape your own 52 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:51.039 role, you can shape the growth of the company and that obviously drives growth 53 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:53.599 of both the company and the individual. So I've been doing a lot of 54 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:58.870 thinking on on how best to do it and you know, few things come 55 00:03:58.909 --> 00:04:01.430 to mind. This is skill Jarres, my fifth startup, so I've had 56 00:04:01.509 --> 00:04:06.509 the opportunity to observe what's work for other people, what's worked for me and 57 00:04:08.110 --> 00:04:11.139 identify some patterns that I'll speak to here. I don't think this is an 58 00:04:11.139 --> 00:04:15.939 exhaustive list, but these are just probably my top three or four observations. 59 00:04:15.259 --> 00:04:20.420 I'd say the number one thing you should always try to learn about is your 60 00:04:20.540 --> 00:04:25.449 customer, and this comes down to who are they right? So this is 61 00:04:25.569 --> 00:04:30.730 personas what what type of companies are they is and what roles, what titles, 62 00:04:30.410 --> 00:04:34.329 but also what are the problems that they're trying to solve? And here 63 00:04:35.129 --> 00:04:40.920 there's a particular framework that was developed by Clayton Christensen. You've probably heard of 64 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:45.680 the INNOVATOR's dilemma, which is a very, really popular book that he wrote. 65 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.920 There's an article that he wrote on this framework. It's really popular with 66 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:54.829 product folks and it's worth learning. Every marketer should get a good sense for 67 00:04:54.949 --> 00:04:59.230 it because it gives you an understanding of the problems that people are trying to 68 00:04:59.269 --> 00:05:03.990 solve. It you you know. That also then leads into the emotional landscape 69 00:05:04.629 --> 00:05:11.459 for your customers. Empathy is a marketing superpower and I think you can think 70 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:18.660 about human beings as fundamentally emotional beings that are really good at giving rational, 71 00:05:18.899 --> 00:05:23.610 logical answers for why they made a decision. And actually what's driving the decision 72 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:27.970 is a lot of emotions, and this is both positive emotions and negative emotions. 73 00:05:28.050 --> 00:05:31.970 So just having a sense for that landscape can be very powerful. This 74 00:05:32.290 --> 00:05:36.240 helps you figure out how you can, you need uniquely, help a customer 75 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:43.759 and also what the stories that people are telling themselves. Every human being has 76 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.759 has sort of navigates their life with stories, with each on a heroes journey 77 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:50.750 of some sorts. So if you can get a sense for that for the 78 00:05:50.829 --> 00:05:57.790 prospect you are functioning at a level that most companies are just not functioning at 79 00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:01.750 and learning about that is super important. Some you know some elements that help 80 00:06:01.790 --> 00:06:09.540 you learn that. Obviously psychology and behavioral economics, because there's a big difference 81 00:06:09.620 --> 00:06:16.819 in this view of customers or human beings as being purely rational beings. Reality 82 00:06:16.819 --> 00:06:20.930 tends to be a lot messier. We're not always rational. So the more 83 00:06:20.970 --> 00:06:25.769 you can learn about that, the more you can apply it in marketing. 84 00:06:25.810 --> 00:06:30.930 Daniel Kep Daniel Conoman has a fantastic book or thinking fast and slow, which 85 00:06:30.009 --> 00:06:33.519 gets into this. Richard Taylor has a really good book called nudge that gets 86 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:38.839 into this. That are any number of really good block pat block posts and 87 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:43.800 blogs out there. Farnham Street, which is this blog that's based in Canada, 88 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:46.269 is one of my favorites and they have a podcast that's really good to 89 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:50.509 so just recommendations. You know a couple other things quickly. Marketing Technology. 90 00:06:50.550 --> 00:06:57.430 If you're in marketing, there's been this gambly and explosion of technology that you 91 00:06:57.509 --> 00:07:00.829 can use to learn about your prospects and customers, reach out to them, 92 00:07:00.949 --> 00:07:02.860 engage with them and you have to keep your finger on the pulse of this. 93 00:07:02.980 --> 00:07:06.379 You have to keep tracking what's going on. And then last thing, 94 00:07:06.379 --> 00:07:12.019 I would say all of this is, I wouldn't say useless, but it's 95 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:15.089 not applied in the best way possible if you don't learn how to manage the 96 00:07:15.250 --> 00:07:20.209 self. And there's a great Peter Drug article about this in Harvard Business Review. 97 00:07:20.689 --> 00:07:25.089 But really this is about the mental game. This is about having clarity 98 00:07:25.129 --> 00:07:29.490 of thought. It's about being aware of your own mentor biases. It's about 99 00:07:29.490 --> 00:07:33.959 understanding environments where you perform at your best, where you'd flow, and environments 100 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:38.079 where you don't, and understanding, you know, picking the right spots and 101 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.839 figuring out if you can hack the environment, and also not letting the EGO 102 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:46.430 getting in the way of doing the right thing for the team in the business. 103 00:07:46.470 --> 00:07:48.670 This is obviously it's a journey. There's no perfection here. I think 104 00:07:48.709 --> 00:07:53.990 it's a it's a practice of learning to manage the self, a combination of 105 00:07:54.110 --> 00:07:57.829 these things. It's seven me well, I've seen it serve other people well 106 00:07:57.829 --> 00:08:01.180 as well, and so I think every market or every listener of your podcast 107 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:03.939 should start thinking about what what's their journey? Where do they want to learn, 108 00:08:05.300 --> 00:08:07.939 and then map out how they would go about it. I love that. 109 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:11.019 Yeah, you give us a lot. So, if you are big 110 00:08:11.139 --> 00:08:16.209 picture, the things that it's helpful or that necessary to focus on in terms 111 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:22.170 of what to educate yourself on to drive your career go growth is you need 112 00:08:22.290 --> 00:08:26.800 to educate yourself on who it is that you're talking to in terms of your 113 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:33.440 customers. You to educate yourself on the emotional landscape within that industry or within 114 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:35.639 those folks that you're going to be talking to every day. What are they 115 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:41.669 up against? And you mentioned what stories are they telling? So so far 116 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:43.950 there's just there is. There's a lot of listening involved in this education process 117 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:48.350 that drives growth, and I noticed not a lot of really anything else, 118 00:08:48.389 --> 00:08:50.830 right, not a lot that has to do with you, until we get 119 00:08:50.830 --> 00:08:54.860 to this part where you need to learn about yourself. I think a lot 120 00:08:54.940 --> 00:08:58.419 of the time that's the part that gets left off. When I think of 121 00:08:58.539 --> 00:09:03.500 how sales people in particular, are are on board, and it's likely the 122 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:05.740 same way with markers. Right, a lot of your training, yes, 123 00:09:05.820 --> 00:09:09.169 you're going to get trained on what the personas are and you're going to get, 124 00:09:09.330 --> 00:09:15.409 you know, trained on what the problem is that your product attempts to 125 00:09:16.210 --> 00:09:20.850 solve. But there isn't necessarily training it at the organizational level. Anyway, 126 00:09:20.210 --> 00:09:24.759 a lot of the time about you know, the value of knowing yourself. 127 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.720 So that's going to have to be something that you do on your own and 128 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:31.440 I think it's easy to forget about that or loose side of that when you're, 129 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:33.360 you know, putting a lot of your energy in on educating yourself on 130 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.240 these these other, you know, parts of the pieces of the puzzle. 131 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.789 So I like the way that you that you laid that out. So that's 132 00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:46.190 the sort of framework formula for things educate yourself on when it comes to when 133 00:09:46.230 --> 00:09:48.990 you're pursuing career growth. Talk about what that looks like when you apply it 134 00:09:50.190 --> 00:09:54.500 to cut to a company, to the the goal of company growth. Yeah, 135 00:09:54.779 --> 00:09:56.740 I think that's a great pivot. And, by the way, you're 136 00:09:56.779 --> 00:10:01.220 so right on this. This idea of educating the self or the journey within. 137 00:10:01.820 --> 00:10:05.940 Schools don't necessarily talk about it. It's not a part of any formal 138 00:10:05.980 --> 00:10:11.049 education curriculum. But if you study philosophy, if you study the legion, 139 00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:15.450 if you study any of that, you notice that all the greats have talked 140 00:10:15.450 --> 00:10:18.929 about this. They've said the journey within is what really leads you to drive 141 00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:22.519 change outside. So I I couldn't agree with you more on the importance of 142 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:24.639 doing that and I wish there were more formalized options out there. But you 143 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:26.919 know, I think that's a that's a separate topic. We can come back 144 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:31.320 to that at some point in in the future. In terms of learning driving 145 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.269 growth, I hinted at some of this in my earlier question, but in 146 00:10:35.509 --> 00:10:41.350 general, most startups tend to be really product focused, and that's good. 147 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:45.789 It's a good thing in many, many cases. But for marketers you have 148 00:10:45.870 --> 00:10:50.700 to be really intentional and mindful in understanding prospect needs. And a good way 149 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:56.259 to think about this is every company will tell you their customer obsessed, that 150 00:10:56.379 --> 00:11:00.659 their customer focused. Would you really have to listen carefully to what they're saying 151 00:11:00.820 --> 00:11:05.129 and then you have to look at how their actions how all, how that 152 00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:09.409 thought is getting translated into actions. Many companies will think of their customers is 153 00:11:09.409 --> 00:11:13.570 essentially big dollar signs, as our CEO likes to say, and that's an 154 00:11:13.649 --> 00:11:20.960 incomplete picture. That's oftentimes a by product of you really understanding the problems that 155 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.200 they're trying to solve and what they're trying to do better and then what they 156 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:28.240 would like to learn, and most companies have a ton of intellectual property on 157 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:31.480 these problems that can be solved, and I like to think of this is 158 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.149 the discipline as opposed to just the product. It's the product plus the solution 159 00:11:35.309 --> 00:11:39.029 story. So if you can create a learning program where people can come in 160 00:11:39.549 --> 00:11:45.830 and learn how to do something new or solve problems that they have today currently, 161 00:11:46.190 --> 00:11:48.179 it can be very powerful. Have some examples of this. These happen 162 00:11:48.220 --> 00:11:50.460 to be our customers, but I think there's a ton of people doing good 163 00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:54.299 work on this. Map Out as a company, as an example, that 164 00:11:54.419 --> 00:11:58.779 does big data education, so you can go in and learn all these tools. 165 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:01.090 They're now part of HPE, I think, and you can get trained 166 00:12:01.129 --> 00:12:05.250 on it. There's a company called trade desk that does training for at tech, 167 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.570 where you can go in and learn these new act te technologies. Smash 168 00:12:09.649 --> 00:12:11.889 flies a company that does it for each our technology. You know. PROCODE 169 00:12:11.929 --> 00:12:16.519 is a company that does it for construction technology. Snowflake, which is this 170 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:20.639 white hot Unicorn, does it for how you do data warehousing in the cloud. 171 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.840 Essentially, what you're doing is training a horde of people on how they 172 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.389 can solve problems and build their own careers. And if you do this right, 173 00:12:30.750 --> 00:12:33.909 obviously you get leads because these people are coming in and registering on your 174 00:12:33.950 --> 00:12:39.870 website to get this training. But what you're also doing is creating these evangelists 175 00:12:39.110 --> 00:12:43.549 where they can take, they will take your product from company to company as 176 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:46.220 they go on, and you end up creating this sort of set up to 177 00:12:46.299 --> 00:12:50.620 be the default option when people are trying to solve this problem. So it 178 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:54.419 can be a very powerful investment to make and a lot of times it doesn't 179 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:58.730 take a lot of investment on your side because you already have on boarding resources 180 00:12:58.090 --> 00:13:01.929 that you've developed. Your customer success team can probably come in and help you 181 00:13:03.049 --> 00:13:05.850 deliver a lot of this content. You can record it and provide it in 182 00:13:05.889 --> 00:13:09.529 an on demand fashion. So this, we've seen this over and over again, 183 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:13.519 can be a really powerful long term investment that marketing can drive in partnership 184 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:20.600 with customer success or product and therefore drive company growth with it. Hey, 185 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.200 everybody logan with sweet fish year. You probably already know that we think you 186 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.710 should start a podcast if you haven't already. But what if you have and 187 00:13:28.789 --> 00:13:33.629 you're asking these kinds of questions? How much has our podcast impacted revenue this 188 00:13:33.710 --> 00:13:37.309 year? How is our sales team actually leveraging the PODCAST content? If you 189 00:13:37.389 --> 00:13:41.700 can't answer these questions, you're actually not alone. This is why I cast 190 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:48.220 it created the very first content marketing platform made specifically for be tob podcasting. 191 00:13:48.740 --> 00:13:54.500 Now you can more easily search and share your audio content while getting greater visibility 192 00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:58.970 into the impact of your podcast. The marketing teams at drift terminus and here 193 00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:03.649 at sweet fish have started using casted to get more value out of our podcasts, 194 00:14:03.809 --> 00:14:07.409 and you probably can to. You can check out the product in action 195 00:14:07.570 --> 00:14:16.360 and casted dot US growth. That's sea steed dot US growth. All right, 196 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:22.679 let's get back to the show. For sure, for sure, it's 197 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:28.629 I mean just this idea of elevating the industry, making a contribution, building 198 00:14:28.669 --> 00:14:35.029 a community around what you do that you know involves your product but doesn't center 199 00:14:35.190 --> 00:14:39.899 on it. So it's how you answer the question. How is customer focus, 200 00:14:39.980 --> 00:14:43.179 or customer experience or customer obsession, as you as you put it. 201 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:50.179 How was that enacted? Right versus right? You talked about people feel that 202 00:14:50.259 --> 00:14:54.009 way or that's part of their philosophy, but where is the action behind it? 203 00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:56.929 And that's where it is. It is in building that community, like 204 00:14:58.049 --> 00:15:03.090 you talked about, and, you know, making those resources available to folks, 205 00:15:03.970 --> 00:15:07.480 really accessible to folks who whether your customer or not, but just, 206 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.240 you know, proving not just that you know this industry, but that you're 207 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:16.039 a member of it, you care about it, you're involved in pushing things 208 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.399 forward for everyone. I love that. I love that and it is it. 209 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:22.830 It starts with education. You got to know these things to teach them, 210 00:15:24.070 --> 00:15:26.429 you've got to place a high you've got to place a high premium and 211 00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:31.190 a high value on on the education to begin with in order to justify making 212 00:15:31.190 --> 00:15:35.629 the kinds of investments in it that you're talking about. So, yeah, 213 00:15:35.629 --> 00:15:37.659 you're absolutely right. Thank you so much for laying that out for us, 214 00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:43.820 these these little insights into how exactly does you know education drive growth when it 215 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:46.179 comes to a career and how is it drive growth when it comes to a 216 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:50.649 company? I think you gave us some really good examples and, you know, 217 00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:52.490 before I get to this next segment, I want to ask you, 218 00:15:52.570 --> 00:15:56.730 is there anything else that you know with respect to education driving growth, whether 219 00:15:56.769 --> 00:16:00.129 it's career or company, that you want to leave our listeners with before we 220 00:16:00.169 --> 00:16:03.049 move on? Yeah, I would say you and gapsulated that beautifully. At 221 00:16:03.169 --> 00:16:10.840 the prospects, customers tend to buy your why a lot sooner than before. 222 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:14.320 They buy the black and the how that comes later. And if you start 223 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.870 with this philosophy of giving and of making people successful, you'd be surprised at 224 00:16:18.029 --> 00:16:22.190 how much faster deals progress and how much people buy and do is sort of 225 00:16:22.230 --> 00:16:25.789 what you're doing you if you start from a place of giving. So I 226 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:27.470 think that that's a good place to be. I love it. I love 227 00:16:27.549 --> 00:16:32.509 it. So I see now that I have successfully picked your brain and seeing 228 00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:33.940 what I could get out of it, it is time for you to tell 229 00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:37.580 us a little bit about what you're putting in it. So let us know 230 00:16:37.659 --> 00:16:40.539 about, you know, a learning resource of something that you're engaging with. 231 00:16:40.779 --> 00:16:45.220 This just inform in your approach or guy you excited these days? Yes, 232 00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:49.169 I have a book recommendation. I love reading and I'm an engineer's I'm always 233 00:16:49.210 --> 00:16:55.210 looking for books that go beyond just the logical, because I've gotten trained on 234 00:16:55.250 --> 00:17:00.809 the logical for a bit. And there's a book called alchemy that's by a 235 00:17:00.929 --> 00:17:06.000 gent by the name of Rory Sutherland. He runs a guilty matters, which 236 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:10.119 is this massive global ad agency's based in the UK, but the book is 237 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:18.269 called Alchemy and he walks you through the different approaches to sort of nonlogical marketing, 238 00:17:18.309 --> 00:17:21.710 I will call it. And just one snippet from it that's stuck with 239 00:17:21.869 --> 00:17:25.789 me for the last couple of weeks has a lot of times the opposite of 240 00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:30.180 a good idea is not a bad idea but another good idea. It's this 241 00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:36.140 sort of bartle thinking approach that a lot of a struggle with. Engineers in 242 00:17:36.220 --> 00:17:40.299 particular, can often be very dualistic. It's either good or bad, and 243 00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:45.970 reading this book has opened up some new creative things for me to try. 244 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:48.809 He wrote. He's up, he's an ad legend. So he walks you 245 00:17:48.890 --> 00:17:55.410 through the development of campaigns. He talks about how seemingly nonlogical choices can have 246 00:17:55.569 --> 00:18:00.000 a massive impact. It talks about a testing I think your listeners were enjoy 247 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.200 reading the book and walk away with some fresh in sides from it. I 248 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:07.400 love it. I want to read this book. Thank you. A lot 249 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.759 of times post one name books that either I have read or that are currently 250 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.750 sitting in my audible library. Hum but this is what I hadn't heard of 251 00:18:15.829 --> 00:18:18.349 yet. So thank you. Thank you for that. Thisen a she'sh I 252 00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:22.190 know that, just like me, everybody listening has become a fast fan of 253 00:18:22.230 --> 00:18:23.430 yours and they are going ton't want to know how to keep up with you. 254 00:18:23.509 --> 00:18:26.579 So tell us. Don US how posting connect with you absolutely. I'm 255 00:18:26.619 --> 00:18:30.579 on Linkedin and you can find me there. I'm also on twitter at just 256 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:33.299 my last name, so it's at them data. Look me up there. 257 00:18:34.220 --> 00:18:37.019 Let me know if you have a book recommendation. I'm always curious to know 258 00:18:37.339 --> 00:18:40.660 if there's a book I should read on a podcast that you enjoy. I 259 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:42.289 love connecting with you. Thanks so much. We'll have to have you on 260 00:18:42.369 --> 00:18:45.089 again. There were a couple questions that came up that we both, I 261 00:18:45.170 --> 00:18:48.130 think, wanted to dig into, but, as you said, that's a 262 00:18:48.170 --> 00:18:52.130 whole other episode. So I'd love you. Thanks so much as thank you, 263 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:57.480 thanks again for having me. We totally get it. We publish a 264 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:02.160 ton of content on this podcast and it can be a lot to keep up 265 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.559 with. That's why we've started the BDB growth big three, a no fluff 266 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:11.069 email that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. 267 00:19:11.549 --> 00:19:18.029 Sign up today at sweet fish mediacoma. Big Three, that sweet fish mediacoma 268 00:19:18.269 --> 00:19:18.950 Big Three