Transcript
WEBVTT
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Are you trying to establish your brand
as a thought leader? Start a PODCAST,
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invite industry experts to be guests on
your show and watch your brand become
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the prime resource for decision makers in
your industry. Learn more at sweetphish MEDIACOM.
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You're listening to be tob growth,
a daily podcast for B TOB leaders.
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We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vander truck and Simon
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Senek, but you've probably never heard
from the majority of our guests. That's
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because the bulk of our interviews aren't
with professional speakers and authors. Most of
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our guests are in the trenches leading
sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy,
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they're experimenting with tactics, they're building
the fastest growing BTB companies in the
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world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet fish media,
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a podcast agency for BB brands,
and I'm also one of the cohosts
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of this show. When we're not
interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear
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stories from behind the scenes of our
own business. Will share the ups and
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downs of our journey as we attempt
to take over the world. Just getting
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well, maybe let's get into the
show. Welcome back to be tob growth.
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I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. I'm joined today by Jason Krenn.
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He's the VP of sales over at
pack safe. Jason, how's it
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going today, sir? Oh,
it's great. Thanks for having me on.
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Absolutely man. We're going to be
talking about looking at contract design through
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the Lens of sales for a better
customer experience, higher sales velocity and efficiency.
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Before we jump into today's topic,
though, I would love for you
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to give listeners a little bit of
context on your background. It's pretty interesting,
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as you and I were chatting a
little bit offline, and what you
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in the team at packs safer up
to, because that's really going to inform
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why you're the guy talking about this
today and shedding some light for sales teams
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on this topic. Yeah, I
appreciate that. So you know, I've
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spent my entire career in technology.
However, it's kind of almost split evenly
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right down the Midd all. About
half of it was in the consumer electronics
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and sort of, you know,
CPG world, where I thought about technology
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and how people use it in their
everyday lives through gadgets and gismos and TV's
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and I love that space. But
there is this sort of point in two
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thousand and nine where, you know, apple, it emerged in the convergence
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space. That happened. We are
in this post ipod, post iphone,
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sort of digital, you know revolution. And the CE space that I was
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in, you know, a lot
of the dominant brands that I that I
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worked with, like I was with
Panasonic and particular with Ourca, we weren't
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having the same impact and I realized, you know, I think I want
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to I want to try something new, something different, and I got into
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software. I joined a company called
exact target marketing software and, you know,
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we were a quote unquote, tiny, in my view, little company
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at about five hundred employees. We
were at about it just eclipse about a
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hundred million and revenue, and then, you know, it took off like
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a rocket ship and sales force purchased
US just a couple of years later for
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two and a half billion dollars.
And then I spent a long time at
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sales force in that world and then, you know, like a lot of
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guys my age, hit that mid
s and realize I want to try something
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new with everything I've learned and and
Indianapolis has a vibrant startup culture. There's
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a ton of investment great companies here
and I decided to join a company called
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pack safe. Where we're in this
you know, we're on a true bleeding
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edge of category creation. We're trying
to create something that's really new in the
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legal text space. I mean it's
a brand new category where, you know,
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animlystic will trying to figure out what
we even call it, and to
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be a part of that is just
incredibly exciting. And so I've been here
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for just wrapping up eight months in
the role. I love it. Man,
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thanks for that background. Definitely I
can see how that transition happened for
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you and kind of the the imput
is for it. You know, I
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spent ten years in the office equipment
technology space, and I putting air quotes
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around that for folks who can't see
my video. That's the euphemism for I
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sell copiers regionally right and moving from
that space to now, where we work
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with a lot of SASS companies,
working with folks who are very innovative from
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their marketing approach, and so it's
some similarities there. I can I can
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appreciate at my stage in my career
as well. So you talked a little
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bit about category creation and category design
that you guys are working on there at
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pack safe, and we've got an
entire series dedicated to category creation here on
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this show. I think it's a
fascinating topic. I think it's timely for
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a lot of marketing teams. As
it relates to that, you guys have
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been talking about this idea of clickwrap
agreements and I think that's going to be,
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you know, a central theme of
this conversation around contract design. So
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let's stop and talk about that for
just a second, for a little bit
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more context on this conversation. Man. All right, so I think it's
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most important. Let me start with
what is pack safe new? We are
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the only comprehensive click wrap platform that's
been built from the ground up to give
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companies the ability to manage click click
wrap contract acceptance at scale. Okay,
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so that's a real simple five second
on the latter pitch. What does it
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mean? So I think what I
have to do is start with the most
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basic element, which is answering a
question I'm sure some listeners have had already.
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What is a click crap contract.
Okay, I'll tell you what.
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It's very easy to understand what a
click crap is, because about ten million
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people accepted a click wrap yesterday when
they download at Disney plus. They launched
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their new APP and after you install
it, you accept their terms of service.
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That is a contract, that is
an agreement. You probably clicked a
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buy, you agree to it,
you accepted that. That is a click
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wrap contract. For a lot of
businesses, terms of service or terms and
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conditions acceptance is the highest volume contract
they will ever execute. And so when
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that has so, now that we've
got that and that's just sort of how
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companies do business these days, what
are founder found, is realized, is
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there is a need to have a
platform that manages that for businesses. And
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so if you understand what a click
wrap is and click rap acceptance is now
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the highest volume contract in your companies
business, you have to think, okay,
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are we managing in appropriately and are
we protected for legal risk? And
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that's what pack safe comes in to
do, because what's happened is now that
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companies have terms of service, terms
and conditions embedded is click wraps, there's
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been a six hundred twenty six percent
increase and Click wrap litigation since two thousand
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and two. So the reality is
most companies don't even know they've got a
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problem trying to enforce a clip wrap
contract agreement until they have to go to
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court and do it. And what
happens? Yeah, it's a big challenge,
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and so what they realize is,
all right, they don't have the
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answers they need necessarily to prove acceptance
in courtly, there can't prove a version
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a type of contract that's been accepted, what the contract looked like when it
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was accepted. They probably can't produce
records at a volume that a court needs.
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And that's where packs it comes in. We can manage and help companies
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execute click rap, a grip click
wrap contracts at scale. Hopefully that's a
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more clear explanation once we talk about
what a click wrap is. Yeah,
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absolutely. I think the Disney plus
example is a great one. Right,
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we think of accept terms and conditions. Just you know that phrase. How
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many times have we seen that when
we've installed an APP, when we've signed
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up for something, those sorts of
things? I think that is the perfect
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example to paint the picture in folks
minds. So in a Bob Environment you
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give a BTC example, I think
of, you know, companies with it
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not necessarily a low but a lower
ACVA, higher volume sale. In BETB.
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I think of a lot of SASS
companies, especially if they have,
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you know, maybe a fremium or
a trial to purchase model or a self
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serve to to a model that's hired
tiered with account executives. Hey, everybody,
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doc TALKABLECOM. All right, let's get
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back to the show. So let's
talk about that a little bit. I
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want to talk through, you know, contract design from the angle of sales,
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how we talk about it and how
to facilitate a better customer experience and
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higher velocity for sales. So I
think a lot of folks, whether it's
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a click wrap agreement or any sort
of contract design, those terms conjure up.
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That's something for legal right and and
so talk to us a little bit
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about the importance of this topic for
sales as an entire function. Yeah,
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absolutely, and I think that's a
good place. That's a good jumping off
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point. So you're absolutely right when
you hit on it. You talked about
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okay, everybody can relate to accepting
terms of service through Disney, and that's
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a high volume contract. You know, they executed ten million plus something yesterday.
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So you, as a salesperson,
think about how easy that was for
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you, if you download Disney plus
yesterday. Wouldn't it be great as a
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salesperson that you could make signing a
contract for your deal that you just closed
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for fifteen thousand dollars just as easy, just as simple for your customers?
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And that's the whole idea behind click
wrap. So you hit the nail on
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the head. The kind of contracts
that companies need to think about and to
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think about moving away from a cumbersome
PDF, you know, e. signature
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based acceptance, to a seamless single
click click wrap acceptance. Are things like,
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you know, smaller, like you
just had it, smaller, high
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velocity sales contracts, small, you
know, renewals and up cells, where
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where there's no negotiation of the terms. You know, SMB deals, change
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order forms that are quite simple,
where it's, you know, nonnegotiated,
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mobile APP sign up, self service
registrations, mutual NBA's Beta agreements. There's
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a whole host of contracts that you, as a salesperson, probably have folks
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execute all the time. But the
idea is, let's think about contract acceptance,
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let's think about contract design. How
do we take all of those things
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that don't need to be slow and
speed them up? And so, you
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know, if you think about contract
design, there's really four big elements that
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we're talking about. Number one,
there's an part of this. You're right,
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legals going to own it. There's
nothing you can do about it.
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They're going to write the contracts.
Okay, the language and the legal language
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is important. What I would encourage
anyone who's in the legal department to do
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is think about how do I design
the legal language to be as simple and
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easy as possible. How do I
write contracts from a contract language design standpoint
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that are encourage quick acceptance, less
negotiation and try to think about how to
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make it as sales friendly in as
sales acceptance as possible? So that's kind
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of step number one. But from
there on out it's really about how do
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you talk about contracts? How do
you, as a salesperson, position and
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talk about a contract? That's one
element of contract design. The other way
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is, you know, what we
want to get sales operations and sales leaders
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thinking about is how do my customers
interact with that contract? So we want
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to make that easier. And then, for the business standpoint, want to
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make contracts easier to accept. It's
where clip wrap comes in. And then
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once it's all accepted, you know, can it be stored easy and reproduce?
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Those are kind of the four elements
we talk about contract design. So
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I think the most important thing you
control is a salesperson, is how do
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you talk about contracts? Okay,
language is an incredibly important aspectiveness. It's
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all about your mindset. Think about
your days as a salesperson. Logan.
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I'm a I bet you often said, you know, hey, let me
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put everything together. I'm going to
send you a contract and then, once
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you sign it will get started.
You position the end of the sale.
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You position it has this multi step
process. You know that's not easy,
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that's not frictionless. Nobody wins.
There the ideas. Think about saying something
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more like this. I'm going to
send you a link to create your account.
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Once you're done, you accept the
contract and we're off and running.
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It's over. It's simple. Or
Hey, everything we negotiate, get it
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and talked about. We've got it
in this contract. I'm going to send
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it to you an email. All
you have to do is click the link.
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We're good to go. So,
if you can move things up faster,
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we don't have to deal with PDF
do. You don't have to embed
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something in to a cot, into
a form, you don't have to embed
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it into your email, you don't
have to. Consumer doesn't have to download
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a piece of software in order to
execute the contract. When you talk about
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contracts that way and you place that
sort of acceptance mindset out there, it's
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amazing how much velocity you can get
your sales process, and in in a
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high volume environment, if you can
shave forty eight hours off of the end
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of the life cycle, from the
time you get to contracting the Times it's
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executed. If you can literally make
the contracts so easy to execute that the
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salespersons on the phone, the email
goes out, they click the acceptance link
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and you're done, that's you know, that's you're talking about some amazing results
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that sales leaders should really be able
to get behind. Yeah, I love
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that point. I'm not very good
at math on the fly, but saving
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forty eight hours and increasing that deal
velocity consistently depending on your you know,
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your average volume of deals, your
ACV, all of those things, that
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the impact is going to be tremendous, that's for sure. And the language
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you talked about it is, you
just very recognizable from my own talk track
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in a dozen years of selling and
the typical language that I hear. But
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I like what you said. There
is almost consumerizing it, even though it's
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in a be to be environment.
In stead of I'm going to send you
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an agreement to sign and send back
and then I'm going to give you next
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steps. Here's a link to sign
up for your account. It's almost like,
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okay, that's very easy, right. I think of in my own
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consumer life. I go to sign
up for something and, Oh, by
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the way, there's a button there
that says log in with Google. Great,
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I don't even have to start start
a new account, right, I
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just pick which option for logging in. And so playing off of that experience
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and what the person is going to
visualize in their mind of the ease of
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that next step in the process is
going to speed things along and reduce some
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friction from the process. Yeah,
so you've hit on two really important things
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here. Number the first one goes
back to what we've talked about sort of
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contract design. So it's how you
talk about in position, the contracting experience
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and it's how a consumer, whether
it's be to be or B Toc,
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interacts with the contracts. So think
about this. You send out a seventy
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five page PDF, that's a lousy
way to interact with the contract. You
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just had a great consumer experience,
you're at the point where you're ready to
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execute and get to start it and
somebody dumps an enormous pdf that you have
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to scroll through and you know,
look at and then, oh, by
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the way, I've got to go
figure out what piece of software I need
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to download on my phone so I
can click these little boxes that I can
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barely see and put a squiggly line
in there, whereas with a click wrap,
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contracts all embedded, sent over the
link, they see it and then
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all they have to do is accept. That's it. You know, the
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great thing is case law has caught
up with you know, technology in a
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sense that a squiggly line, e. signature, or a one click acceptance
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is just as enforceable in the eyes
of the law and the courts exactly the
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same. So don't get caught up
on this idea. Will wait a minute.
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If I don't execute the digital signature, it's not going to be valid.
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I could get sued, my customers
could go away. NOPE, Click
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wrap. It's the same thing as
far as the courts are concerned. So
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that's a really important so it's about
how you talk about it, how you
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interact with it, and why I
think how you interact with it is so
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important is because the reality is this. I mean you know this because you
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literally just described it. A frictionless
sort of customer experience. That is the
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expectation today. That's not just sort
of an added benefit. Oh Hey,
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I'm going to try to create this
and make it better so my business will
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benefit. No, it's an expectation. I mean you don't talk about going
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to, you know, going driving
to a concert anymore. You say,
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Hey, we're going to uber there. It's not I'm going to go order
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some carry out, it's I'm going
to do dinner. We it's the frictionless
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idea is so embedded and sort of
who we are now that it's become a
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bird. And so what's pretty fascinating
is eighty percent of companies, when you
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know it was just a recent article
that was informed, eighty percent of companies
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believe they deliver like super customer experiences
and only about eight percent of customers actually
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agree. Because, and so think
about that. You know, you think
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you're doing this great job as a
company and contracts, you think you've done
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a great job expert delivering that to
your customer. Probably eight percent of them
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actually agree with you. You know. So at the end of the day,
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if you fail to provide a superior
customer experience, you know that's going
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to impact your brand. Now you
can think will jason, you just talked
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about Uber and door and that's really
a BEC customer experience. I sell SASS
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software. Who Do you think to
buying SASS software today? It's the genss
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and millennials who are now assuming positions
of economic power and companies. They expect
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the same frictionless experience they get in
their everyday life happen in their be to
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be buying experiences as well, and
clip wrap allows you to do that.
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It's just this really interesting sort of, you know, convergence of our off,
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you know, sort of nonprofessional BTC
life and coming into our B Tob
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World. And so when you think
about contract design and the acceptance part,
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you're creating that experience in the B
Tob side things. Yeah, absolutely,
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Jason. I love what you're talking
about here. It reminds me of something
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I heard between Joey Coleman, the
author of never lose a customer again,
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and Ethan View, the chief evangelist
over at bombomb on the customer experience podcast.
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You know, to go off of
your comments there about what the experience
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is like, and that is after
people sign up. That is like the
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trough of despair, potentially for new
customers. That's when we're ringing the sales
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going in a be tob environment.
But that is also when the customer is
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most at risk. For that,
buyers remorse. What have I done?
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I've just made a B to be
purchased. My career could be online.
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Even if it's, you know,
K for the year, it's still you're
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sticking your neck out a bit and
the more that you can avoid any negative
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experience, any friction in that process, you've got a better chance at renewal
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because that customer experience is better from
the very get go. So I completely
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agree with what you're saying there and
I think it's something we should think about
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related to contracts and everything from on
boarding customer. So I think you've given
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folks in sales, customer success in
a lot of different functional roles stuff to
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think about here. Jason, now
that I've picked your brain, I would
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love to hear a little bit of
what you're putting into it before we wrap
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today. I love to ask some
of our guests. Are Never Stop learning
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question. It's one of our core
values here at sweet fish. So I'd
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love to hear a resource either related
to today's topic or something that's just got
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you excited or informing your sales approach
these days. Jason. Okay, yeah,
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I love that question. So if
you've been in sales along time,
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particularly you've been in sales leadership,
you know you can chart the sort of
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phases of the sales books and everybody
gets excited about you know, if you're
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an old guy like me, you
remember when spin selling came out and everybody
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was talking about spin and then challenge. You know, challenge. Your sale
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was great. These are all great
books. I'm not spared in them.
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It's just, you know, every
sort of few years there's a new sales
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book that comes out that sort of
redefined how you go to market as a
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sales team. And when you've been
around long enough and you've read them all,
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you find just sort of these common
themes that are repackaged and executed a
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different way. A book that I
found, I think, was just truly
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like wow, this was a mind
shift book for me was the transparency sale
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by Todd capony. I mean he
advocates a whole radically different way to sell,
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which is leading with your flaws and, you know, leading with this
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ultimate transparency of hey, you know, he calls it, you know,
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being flowsome, which is these are
the things we do well. These are
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the things we don't do well and
having this ultimate transparency in the sales process
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that completely disrupts all of the brain
patterns that buyers have to be predisposed to
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be negative. It's truly an authentic
way to sell. I can't rave enough
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about it. I've recommended it to
everybody. Go follow them on twitter,
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you know, read his blog,
the transparency sale by todd points. Fantastic.
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I love that one. Man.
I've had the pleasure of chatting with
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todd and having him on our counterpart
show, the B tob sales show.
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I was so pumped to have him
on there talking about some of the things
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from the book, because I'm with
you, ever, recommended that to so
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many people. I've implemented so many
things from that book in presentation, in
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negotiation. Just full of some great
stories, some great lessons and, as
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you said, a mind shift when
it comes to sales, not just kind
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of these good reminders. So great
resource there for folks. Jason, I
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love that you mentioned that. So
as we wrap today, J's name by
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WHO's listening to this? Would that
would like to learn more about pack safe
314
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.440
or just reach out to you or
stay connected. What's the best way for
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00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.160
them to do that? Man Linkedin. Last time I checked on the only
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Jason Crown on Linkedin, so I
am easy to find there or at Jason
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00:22:02.549 --> 00:22:04.109
Crown. I love it. Man, thank you so much for the conversation
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today. Awesome. Thank you.
We totally get it. We publish a
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00:22:11.150 --> 00:22:15.630
ton of content on this podcast and
it can be a lot to keep up
320
00:22:15.670 --> 00:22:18.539
with. That's why we've started the
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321
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