1179: Do Women Have the Freedom to Fail? w/ Kelly Hopping

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.519 Are you struggling to come up with original content weekend and week out? Start 2 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:09.189 a podcast, interview your ideal clients, let them talk about what they care 3 00:00:09.230 --> 00:00:14.589 about most and never run out of content ideas again. Learn more at sweet 4 00:00:14.589 --> 00:00:23.699 fish Mediacom. You're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for B 5 00:00:23.820 --> 00:00:28.059 TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vannerd truck 6 00:00:28.140 --> 00:00:32.020 and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. 7 00:00:32.659 --> 00:00:36.649 That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 8 00:00:37.210 --> 00:00:41.049 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're 9 00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:46.570 implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies 10 00:00:46.609 --> 00:00:49.770 in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet 11 00:00:49.770 --> 00:00:53.399 fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of 12 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:57.439 the CO hosts of the show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, 13 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.159 you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share 14 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.549 the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. 15 00:01:04.189 --> 00:01:15.069 Just getting well, maybe let's get into the show. Welcome back to 16 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:18.549 be tob growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media, because I've got 17 00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:22.260 with me today Kelly hopping. She is the CMO over at kept Tara. 18 00:01:22.500 --> 00:01:25.379 Kelly, how's it going today? It's great. Thanks for having me. 19 00:01:25.739 --> 00:01:27.019 Thank you so much for Joe running us. We're going to be having what 20 00:01:27.099 --> 00:01:32.500 I think is a pretty important conversation, and that's how we view failure in 21 00:01:32.540 --> 00:01:38.170 leadership and different implications. I think you're going to bring some very specific experience 22 00:01:38.250 --> 00:01:42.250 and advice to folks on this topic today, for men and women alike. 23 00:01:42.530 --> 00:01:44.969 Before we jump straight into that, though, Kelly, I would love for 24 00:01:45.049 --> 00:01:48.159 you to give us a little bit of background on yourself and what you in 25 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:52.000 the team at kept terror up to these days. Sure. So, I 26 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:55.599 have been a kept here just about seven or eight months now, and we 27 00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:00.670 are a full service marketing department where, essentially we cover everything full funnel, 28 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:06.310 from, you know, comms and brand and awareness down to performance marketing, 29 00:02:06.469 --> 00:02:09.909 Seo and a Cem and partnerships to our vendor marketing, creative content, you 30 00:02:09.990 --> 00:02:13.870 name it. And really what we're trying to do here kept Tara is we 31 00:02:14.110 --> 00:02:21.300 are a software reviews platform and inside platform. That's really about helping buyers find 32 00:02:21.340 --> 00:02:23.659 the right match for their software needs so that they can grow their business. 33 00:02:24.060 --> 00:02:29.740 We don't expect our buyers to be technology experts, but they certainly need technology 34 00:02:29.900 --> 00:02:35.050 to grow their business. So whether it's it's HR software or project management, 35 00:02:35.129 --> 00:02:38.490 or it's, you know, fleet scheduling or operations, are accounting that we 36 00:02:38.569 --> 00:02:40.930 want to make sure that they get with think when they come to kept are 37 00:02:42.289 --> 00:02:46.360 absolutely I love it so killing. Let's transition right into this topic today about 38 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.479 how we view failure. I think this is going to be very important for 39 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.039 folks. I I've changed my thinking on it a good bit since I've been 40 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.509 in the startup world as part of a fast growth start up over the last 41 00:02:59.550 --> 00:03:01.949 year and a half here. It's sweet fish realizing that we learn a lot 42 00:03:02.030 --> 00:03:07.349 from failure, and I have some perfectionist tendencies that might not lead me to 43 00:03:07.430 --> 00:03:13.819 believe that initially. But specifically within the the context of leadership, you've had 44 00:03:13.939 --> 00:03:19.539 some experiences where there needs to be more of a conversation, especially for women 45 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:23.699 in the workplace, on that allowance for failure. Tell us a little bit 46 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:27.610 about kind of the back story. There are some of your experiences and why 47 00:03:27.650 --> 00:03:31.650 you're passionate about this topic. Yeah, absolutely so. I originally I start 48 00:03:31.689 --> 00:03:37.370 reading all these articles about somehow the world not allowing women to fail, like 49 00:03:37.530 --> 00:03:39.330 we were a victim or something. I was like, I've never felt like 50 00:03:39.490 --> 00:03:43.840 that. What I felt like is that I'm not going to allow myself to 51 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.280 fail. So to me, the question was always more about do women allow 52 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:53.439 themselves to fail way more than anybody doing to us. We just I think 53 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:58.110 women are wired different. We just have a different disposition toward failure. We 54 00:03:58.789 --> 00:04:01.030 hold ourselves to really high standard, which I think is a great thing. 55 00:04:01.509 --> 00:04:04.789 We want to earn our place where we are. We only apply for jobs 56 00:04:04.909 --> 00:04:10.780 that we feel one hundred percent fully qualified for. We fear sort of proving 57 00:04:10.819 --> 00:04:15.740 stereotypes in typically male oriented environments. I've worked in stem I'm an engineer, 58 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:19.459 I've worked in technology the most of my career, and so we have this 59 00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:24.769 fear that we're going to just prove what the stereotypes say, and so it's 60 00:04:24.810 --> 00:04:28.009 a sort of operating out of fear a little bit there, and I think 61 00:04:28.050 --> 00:04:30.250 the rational for that, or that I can understand, is that we just 62 00:04:30.329 --> 00:04:36.569 don't compartmentalize well. So we don't compartmentalize performance and personal separate and so for 63 00:04:36.730 --> 00:04:41.360 us it's sort of runs together. So if we failed a project, to 64 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:45.000 us we take that as failure as a person, which means we're not going 65 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:47.720 to put ourselves in a position to fail as a person and therefore we don't 66 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:50.800 take as many and that's kind of a blanket statement, by the way. 67 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:56.230 When I say women, I sort of I'm thinking about professional women in corporate 68 00:04:56.310 --> 00:04:59.709 environment. It could be true, and probably every part of life, but 69 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.069 that's sort of what I'm thinking about there, I think. As a result, 70 00:05:02.110 --> 00:05:05.430 I think that's one of the key drivers of why we have fewer women 71 00:05:05.550 --> 00:05:11.339 CEOS, fewer women entrepreneurs because, as you mentioned the opening, our biggest 72 00:05:11.339 --> 00:05:15.300 obstacle is our own perfectionism, and so that fear of sort of failure is 73 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:18.459 is sort of always heavy on us, and it's not about necessarily failing, 74 00:05:18.939 --> 00:05:23.810 even at the risk that we're taking, it's about failing potentially at something else 75 00:05:23.889 --> 00:05:27.649 in the process. So, for example, I almost didn't take a job 76 00:05:27.649 --> 00:05:31.209 a few years ago. I was at rackspace and I was leading brand marketing 77 00:05:31.689 --> 00:05:35.040 for the company at a Nice Little Team of a few folks, and we 78 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.560 sort of were running the brand positioning and and my boss came to me, 79 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.360 the CMO, and said, Hey, I want you to take on basically 80 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:45.720 all of our common want you to pick up campaigns and are go to market 81 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:49.029 strategy and all of content and not creative and I was like, Oh yeah, 82 00:05:49.110 --> 00:05:53.509 no thanks, and she was like, she was like why? She 83 00:05:53.629 --> 00:05:55.589 was like, you know, this is a great opportunity. I'd love to 84 00:05:55.629 --> 00:05:57.709 promote you, and I was like, you know what, I'm a director, 85 00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:00.829 I've got three kids, I'm home every night, I have things are 86 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.180 going really, really good. Like if I stay the director until my kids 87 00:06:04.220 --> 00:06:08.420 go to college, I'll call that a success. I'll be perfectly content with 88 00:06:08.579 --> 00:06:11.180 my career. And she was like why would you do that? I was 89 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:14.259 like because I'm not willing to be on the road more. I'm not willing 90 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:18.329 to sort of work late nights and things because of this bigger job. And 91 00:06:18.529 --> 00:06:21.649 she was like I she made a commitment to me that. She was like, 92 00:06:21.810 --> 00:06:26.089 I will protect your personal life. I will empower you to hire up 93 00:06:26.089 --> 00:06:29.089 your leaders to make sure you have a strong, you know, second team 94 00:06:29.089 --> 00:06:31.009 under your, you know, leadership team under you, so that you are 95 00:06:31.089 --> 00:06:34.120 not going to so that stuff won't change. But she was like don't fear 96 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:39.160 failing at home and letting it turn down an opportunity of work, and so 97 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:42.079 that really stuck with me. Of like yeah, that's what it was. 98 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.920 It wasn't that I was fearing failing the job, it's that if I did 99 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.350 the job way at well, I would fail at something else. So that's 100 00:06:47.350 --> 00:06:50.509 kind of what I think about and I think women just don't want to be 101 00:06:50.629 --> 00:06:55.350 put in that position and so we just take plus risks. M Yeah, 102 00:06:55.470 --> 00:06:59.509 absolutely, I think. You know, there there can be cases where we've 103 00:06:59.550 --> 00:07:00.980 got it, you know, on the other end of the spectrum, where 104 00:07:01.019 --> 00:07:05.100 we just pursue that success and don't realize that, you know, failing at 105 00:07:05.180 --> 00:07:09.939 home is a failure, right. But what you said, they're about, 106 00:07:10.339 --> 00:07:14.779 you know, men compartment mentalizing a bit more. I remember my wife and 107 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:17.410 I read this book about that. Talked about women are like women's brains are 108 00:07:17.449 --> 00:07:21.850 like Spaghetti and men's brains are like waffles. And you know, when I'm 109 00:07:21.889 --> 00:07:25.370 in my work box, I'm in my workbox, when I'm in my dad 110 00:07:25.449 --> 00:07:27.730 box, I'm in my dad box, and there tends to be not a 111 00:07:27.810 --> 00:07:31.720 whole lot of overlap and just fluid back and forth and I think that I 112 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:36.600 forget sometimes that that, you know, our brains don't work exactly the same 113 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:41.240 way. So it's interesting to hear that from you as well. Reminds me 114 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:45.189 of that book we read a long time back. Kelly is, you and 115 00:07:45.310 --> 00:07:48.310 I were chatting a little bit offline. You mentioned a few experiences that really 116 00:07:48.790 --> 00:07:57.509 have also informed your thinking on this topic where experience, your experience was, 117 00:07:57.790 --> 00:08:01.500 you know, fail, you're just wasn't an option and kind of the antithesis 118 00:08:01.660 --> 00:08:05.899 of what you just shared there in in the experience of the promotion which, 119 00:08:05.980 --> 00:08:09.620 by the way, just on that before I forget. I really like what 120 00:08:09.939 --> 00:08:13.290 you're your boss did in that scenario and said Hey, well, winning here 121 00:08:13.449 --> 00:08:18.610 doesn't have to mean we always think the next level up means late night, 122 00:08:18.089 --> 00:08:24.529 means travel, and I think we're doing a disservice as organizations if we aren't 123 00:08:24.970 --> 00:08:30.279 painting the picture that, Hay, success can happen here without sacrificing family on 124 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.120 the altar of that work success. So sorry, I just had to go 125 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:35.639 back to that as I thought. So tell us about some of the other 126 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.519 situations you've been a part of and maybe some of the pitfalls there's we think 127 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:41.870 about this topic. Yeah, a, you know, there's a lot in 128 00:08:41.909 --> 00:08:45.230 there. By the way, I love the Spaghetti and lawful visual I think 129 00:08:45.230 --> 00:08:48.710 that's spot on and I do think you're right. Like and as I've moved 130 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:52.149 through my career. I mean that was at the director level then now I'm 131 00:08:52.149 --> 00:08:56.179 at the CMO level. So so a few tears higher and I still pride 132 00:08:56.220 --> 00:09:00.980 myself on being home every night. I'm traveling very little, really trying to 133 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:03.419 separate the two. Working my butt off when I'm here at work. I 134 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:07.299 use every second in the day so that I'm not wasting time, so that 135 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:11.370 I get smarter there, and you just definitely you operate smarter as you sort 136 00:09:11.409 --> 00:09:15.210 of moved through. But so back to your question on where failure wasn't an 137 00:09:15.250 --> 00:09:20.570 option. A few years ago I was in a role where I was supporting 138 00:09:20.649 --> 00:09:26.000 a leader very directly and it was a really, really toxic work environment and 139 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:33.080 it was a situation where I was I didn't have permission to fail and I 140 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:35.960 had no permission to have a personal life either, and so I was sort 141 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:41.230 of held to a very strict standard and I was working in an environment where 142 00:09:41.269 --> 00:09:48.549 I had a counterpart who was incredibly confident in their position and their relationship with 143 00:09:48.669 --> 00:09:54.620 the leader, but was incredibly incompetent in terms of their ability to do anything. 144 00:09:54.019 --> 00:09:56.059 And I felt like I was sort of the other side where I was 145 00:09:56.139 --> 00:10:01.139 incredibly competent but because of the work environment, like my confidence just took a 146 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:05.340 major shot and to me, like when you end up in that situation, 147 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:09.809 or one has mean if you have your all common potent and no confidence, 148 00:10:09.929 --> 00:10:13.450 you just sort of like you become debilitating, like you kind of crawl under 149 00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:16.850 the desk and make no impact. The other side is your all confidence and 150 00:10:16.049 --> 00:10:22.399 no competence and you're just destructive to an organization. So why you said it 151 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.720 that way? That's exactly where I was going to go. You're not hiding 152 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.759 under the desk, but you're knocking deaths over and you're creating a lateral damage 153 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.000 and all those sorts of things. Absolutely and I worked in that environment and 154 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:39.190 I felt this determination not to let my boss win. She was such a 155 00:10:39.389 --> 00:10:43.629 horrible, awful human that I was like I'm not going to win, like, 156 00:10:45.029 --> 00:10:46.870 and my husband asked me all the time, like why are you putting 157 00:10:46.870 --> 00:10:50.179 up like twent through four admins in the time I was in the role, 158 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:54.620 and I just thought like and he's like, everybody's leaving. Why are you 159 00:10:54.659 --> 00:10:56.500 sticking this out? And I was like because she thinks she can win and 160 00:10:56.539 --> 00:11:01.139 I'm not going to let her win. So I was determined and I and 161 00:11:01.299 --> 00:11:03.409 so to me I was not allowed to fail it probably in my own head 162 00:11:03.529 --> 00:11:07.409 more so, I was determined for her to promote me back into the business 163 00:11:07.450 --> 00:11:11.649 unit after I finished that rule and and that's what it ended up happening at 164 00:11:11.690 --> 00:11:15.250 the end of the day. But it was a it was a long trek 165 00:11:15.529 --> 00:11:20.960 where I didn't feel empowered to sort of try something new. I didn't feel 166 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:26.360 confident to bring a great new strategic initiative to her or some big pet project 167 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:30.799 that I wanted to dive into because it wasn't aligned with with, you know, 168 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:33.230 what she was sort of barking at me to do. And so I 169 00:11:33.309 --> 00:11:35.750 just realized me and I never ever, I mean I arned a ton on 170 00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:37.470 that role, but mostly I learned I never want to be that boss. 171 00:11:37.909 --> 00:11:41.750 I never want to operate in that environment, and so that was that was 172 00:11:41.789 --> 00:11:45.990 a big learning there. I think as a leader, what I take away 173 00:11:45.990 --> 00:11:50.379 from that is that we have to figure out, and whether it's women or 174 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:52.820 men, but we have to figure out as leaders, how we can help 175 00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:58.860 women, in this case, fail productively right, like how do they fail 176 00:11:58.980 --> 00:12:03.649 sort of loud and proud and fail with purpose and don't feel like a failure 177 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:05.769 as a result of it? And I think that's really the challenge. And 178 00:12:05.889 --> 00:12:07.929 so I think how do we get mean, if we do, we can 179 00:12:07.970 --> 00:12:11.090 get women to take more risks, we can get women to step into more 180 00:12:11.129 --> 00:12:15.529 leadership roles, we can get women to change the world. I mean we're 181 00:12:15.570 --> 00:12:18.519 empowering women to take risks without that fear. And so to me, what 182 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.080 I want to empower my leaders to do and what I try to do is 183 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:28.279 is focus on the risk, not the result. Really applot the risk taken 184 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.710 and the initiative and less about sort of where it and at it out really 185 00:12:31.750 --> 00:12:33.710 focus on those lessons learned. You mentioned that at the very beginning, like 186 00:12:33.870 --> 00:12:37.470 there's so much that comes from failure. You're just better at it the next 187 00:12:37.509 --> 00:12:41.190 time. Either you approach things differently, you have a more of a backbone, 188 00:12:41.230 --> 00:12:46.620 maybe the next time you have more perseverance, you can recognize, like 189 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:52.299 you know, potential risks or places to fail along the way that you can 190 00:12:52.419 --> 00:12:56.500 go to avoid those, those buttles and so I think that's really important. 191 00:12:56.779 --> 00:13:00.610 But bringing back that confidence is so key right, like how quickly can you 192 00:13:00.690 --> 00:13:03.529 take someone who just failed on a project and throw right back into the walls? 193 00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:09.009 Because that's the best way to kind of get over. 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So, going back to that analogy 207 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:20.519 where you said, you know, you had a counterpart who was very confident 208 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:22.960 but not competent yourself, you painted the picture of, you know, just 209 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.429 kind of hiding under the desk and I think as a leader that's just how 210 00:14:28.509 --> 00:14:31.669 can we look out for those situations where, especially we have women on our 211 00:14:31.750 --> 00:14:37.509 team who are competent but lack that confidence? And so you mentioned, you 212 00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:39.539 know, a couple of things we can do. We can reward the risk 213 00:14:39.700 --> 00:14:45.740 taken and celebrate the risk as much as the result. What are some other 214 00:14:45.899 --> 00:14:48.980 things, Kelly, that leaders could maybe do to recognize where they've got a 215 00:14:50.059 --> 00:14:54.289 situation where they have a very competent individual that doesn't have the confidence and they're 216 00:14:54.289 --> 00:14:58.129 doing themselves in the organization a disservice by, you know, not putting that 217 00:14:58.250 --> 00:15:01.529 in action? Yeah, I mean I think it's a great question. I 218 00:15:01.809 --> 00:15:09.639 think one partnering those folks with maybe other leaders who have a proven track record 219 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.279 of doing great work, because I think a lot of times it's just I 220 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.679 was just knowing where to start. Like I'm think I'm willing to try this 221 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:18.120 new thing. You want me to do, but can you give me some 222 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:22.950 general frameworks on how to get started? And so a lot with my team. 223 00:15:22.990 --> 00:15:26.149 I'll do that. I stood up a new brand management function here this 224 00:15:26.269 --> 00:15:31.269 year and the role felt kind of squishy at the beginning, and so the 225 00:15:31.350 --> 00:15:33.830 team would be like, okay, I know what I'm generally supposed to get 226 00:15:33.950 --> 00:15:37.220 to, I know my objectives, but you know me, like navigate. 227 00:15:37.340 --> 00:15:39.059 Where's the right place to start? So we sort of sat down and so 228 00:15:39.179 --> 00:15:43.580 let's start with these three priorities and this is how I would approach them. 229 00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:46.779 These the people you should reach out to and then kind of set them off 230 00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:50.970 and going. But I think that's a big one. I think another one 231 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:52.889 is, you know, I mentioned about getting them back out there. I 232 00:15:52.970 --> 00:15:58.090 think about the way my Husan has been coaches my kids in sports a lot 233 00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:02.409 and I always noticed that, like if my kid misses a pass for some 234 00:16:02.570 --> 00:16:06.240 reason, like in football, he drops the past, then my husband will 235 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.240 run almost the exact same play to get the ball back into his hands so 236 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:14.000 that he forgets about that drop so fast it doesn't destroy the rest of the 237 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:18.120 game right. So if you fail fast and then sort of get a quick 238 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.029 win, you kind of forget about that fast failure, because now you're onto 239 00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:22.549 the next thing, and so that's a big thing too. I think is 240 00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:26.710 leaders if we see that, you know, a project or an initiative sort 241 00:16:26.710 --> 00:16:30.350 of going awry, it's Oh boy, how can I either like introduce the 242 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:33.299 sort of side project where they get a quick win and sort of redirect or 243 00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:37.860 catch it early, pivot before it goes too far and then sort of redirect 244 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:41.340 down the right path? And I think that just comes to being really in 245 00:16:41.419 --> 00:16:45.580 tune with your team, having really open dialogs and comfortable, transparent, healthy 246 00:16:45.659 --> 00:16:51.929 conversations. The way I handled it with my sort of devil boss that I 247 00:16:52.009 --> 00:16:56.250 worked for was I just sat or down one day and I was just like 248 00:16:56.970 --> 00:17:00.090 I said, Hey, I'm really, really good at my job, like 249 00:17:00.330 --> 00:17:04.000 I know what I'm doing. I'm incredibly confident. I've managed large groups of 250 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:10.680 people, I have run big initiatives, I've program managed big efforts and I've 251 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.599 done a really, really good job at that. But I walk in here 252 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.990 every day and you beat the crud out of me and as a result, 253 00:17:15.990 --> 00:17:19.390 you know what you're getting. You're getting nothing from me because you've destroyed my 254 00:17:19.549 --> 00:17:23.950 confidence and so I don't I'm doing nothing for you if you actually want value 255 00:17:25.430 --> 00:17:27.670 out of what I can deliver. Like I need a little space here, 256 00:17:27.789 --> 00:17:32.140 like I need you to back up and recognize that, even though I walk 257 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:33.940 in and my full five three, I sort of crawl out of here two 258 00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:38.140 and she's off the ground every day. And so she and I probably use 259 00:17:38.140 --> 00:17:44.329 a little bit harsher terms than that, but her maybe, yeah, her 260 00:17:44.450 --> 00:17:48.849 response was she sort of stared at me and then she was like, okay, 261 00:17:48.450 --> 00:17:52.690 you're right, well, I will help, and after that she started 262 00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:56.410 for like the next six months. It was great. She did last ever, 263 00:17:56.490 --> 00:17:59.880 but the first six months she started pulling me into a lot of really 264 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.640 key strategic meetings and saying like hey, if I expose you to more things, 265 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:07.119 that should hopefully get you, you know, more opportunities to try new 266 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.279 things, and it just opened up my world just by her saying, like 267 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:15.630 her acknowledgement that I needed help and I needed her empowerment and her believe in 268 00:18:15.710 --> 00:18:18.150 me, instead of sort of the the opposite, the constant, you know, 269 00:18:18.349 --> 00:18:22.269 throwing cell phones at my head or the constant sort of tearing me down, 270 00:18:22.750 --> 00:18:26.539 and that was really it was really helpful. But so I think that's 271 00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:34.220 the other thing is encouraging open dialog where your employees have a comfortable enough relationship 272 00:18:34.299 --> 00:18:37.700 and your approachable enough that they can come say hey, I'm struggling here, 273 00:18:37.779 --> 00:18:41.809 I need some help. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think it 274 00:18:41.930 --> 00:18:45.970 comes down to the minutia. You know, our team was having a conversation 275 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:51.890 just about communication and priorities and and you know, we had a quick little 276 00:18:51.930 --> 00:18:55.329 conversation and just reminded some of our team members. Hey, if you get 277 00:18:55.369 --> 00:18:59.519 a request from someone, especially if it's someone in leadership, and they say 278 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.799 well, hey, how about this deadline, and not taking that as oh 279 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.359 well, that's the deadline, I have to, you know, work until 280 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:10.000 two in the morning to get that done and know, at least in our 281 00:19:10.190 --> 00:19:12.710 culture, when we throw that out there, whether that's colleague to colleague or 282 00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:18.950 leadership to direct report, that's a the beginning of a dialog on what's doable 283 00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:22.789 with this deadline and with your current workload. Right. And so I think 284 00:19:22.829 --> 00:19:26.539 it comes down to those very small things that we take for granted and that 285 00:19:26.660 --> 00:19:30.059 we don't stop and just say, Hey, let's level set here on how 286 00:19:30.099 --> 00:19:33.339 we look at this. That, as you mentioned, kind of tills the 287 00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:37.140 ground for those conversations that maybe go a little bit deeper, like Hey, 288 00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:40.809 you're beating me down here. I love what you're saying here, Kelly. 289 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:44.089 To Recap for folks, you know a couple of those pieces of advice. 290 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:48.569 You know reward risk over the result. Certainly you want to praise accomplishments, 291 00:19:48.569 --> 00:19:52.279 but recognize that risk taking if you want to encourage it more, and I 292 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.799 think you've given us some good reasons and why you want to do that as 293 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.359 a leader, give a second try right away, another opportunity to take that 294 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:06.000 sting out of the risk and the failure, and then look for opportunities to 295 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:11.710 pair folks who are lacking confidence with folks with more experience, because that confidence 296 00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:15.549 breeds confidence and I think you know that. That was great advice as well. 297 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.950 So, Kelly, whether it's on this topic or related to leadership or 298 00:20:19.029 --> 00:20:23.460 just something else that's got you excited or informing your leadership or your marketing approach 299 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:27.700 these days, I love to ask guests on this show a never stop learning 300 00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:33.420 resource they would like to share with guests, whether that's professional or personal development, 301 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:36.609 something that's got you excited these days. Yeah, that's a great question. 302 00:20:36.690 --> 00:20:38.210 I listened to a lot. I have about a forty minute commute, 303 00:20:38.210 --> 00:20:41.049 and so I listened to a lot of podcastles. Until love audio books and 304 00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:45.690 I sort of flip back and forth. My big audio books these days, 305 00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:48.690 well, my big podcasts these days are how I built this. I listened 306 00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:52.240 to that one a lot. I think it's cool to hear where people stories 307 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.200 come from, how they came up with ideas these I think we're all sort 308 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:59.440 of like closet entrepreneurs in some way, thinking about what would I do if 309 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.359 I could start my own thing? So that's a big one for me. 310 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.950 It just keeps my juices flowing a little bit. And also sort of sadly, 311 00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:11.190 follow the news and things because I think it's really interesting to kind of 312 00:21:11.230 --> 00:21:15.150 be up to speed on and relevant. I run a content team here and 313 00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:18.220 so just making sure that we're always producing content that's relevant to the world and 314 00:21:18.339 --> 00:21:22.339 the trends of Ron. So I listened to everything from the skim to the 315 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:25.500 daily to the hustle. You know, I read the Hustle to whatever we've 316 00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:29.099 got out there. So a lot of different media sources. And then there's 317 00:21:29.099 --> 00:21:33.210 just some great books I've been reading lately. I'm reading the Great Alan Right 318 00:21:33.210 --> 00:21:37.049 now, all about Alaska and I just read educated, which is a fantastic 319 00:21:37.170 --> 00:21:41.849 nonfiction book about interesting life. So I think there's you know, there's a 320 00:21:41.849 --> 00:21:45.250 lot of resource is out there that read. These are some. Those are 321 00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:48.319 some really great ones. For folks who didn't catch all those, hit the 322 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.359 thirty two back button and get ready, get your note note APP open or 323 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:57.480 your pencil ready to jot down some good podcast some good resources that Kelly dropped 324 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.400 there. Well, Kelly, this has been a great conversation. I really 325 00:22:00.509 --> 00:22:06.910 appreciate your candor your willingness to talk on this subject share your own experiences. 326 00:22:07.069 --> 00:22:10.309 If folks listening to this have gotten some value from this, want to stay 327 00:22:10.309 --> 00:22:12.230 connected with you or want to reach out and ask a follow up question, 328 00:22:12.589 --> 00:22:15.740 what's the best way for them to go about doing that? Sure I would 329 00:22:15.740 --> 00:22:19.660 say Linkedin is probably the best place to connect. It's Kelly hopping. It 330 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:22.700 will show US Gardner. I work for Gartner, the company kept tear as 331 00:22:22.700 --> 00:22:26.180 a brand that's honed by Gartner. So I would say that's the place, 332 00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:30.210 the best place. And then you know, I'm on twitter and everywhere else, 333 00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:33.450 so you can find me out there for sure. But linkedin' to a 334 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:36.890 great place to connect. I love it. Kelly, thank you so much 335 00:22:36.930 --> 00:22:41.569 for being on the show today. Awesome. Thanks for having me looking we 336 00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:45.880 totally get it. We publish a ton of content on this podcast and it 337 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.319 can be a lot to keep up with. That's why we've started the BTB 338 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:55.319 growth big three, a no fluff email that boils down our three biggest takeaways 339 00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:00.950 from an entire week of episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish Mediacom big 340 00:23:00.069 --> 00:23:03.950 three. 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