Transcript
WEBVTT
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Wouldn't it be nice to have several
thought leaders in your industry know and Love
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Your brand? Start a podcast,
invite your industries thought leaders to be guests
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on your show and start reaping the
benefits of having a network full of industry
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influencers? Learn more at sweet phish
MEDIACOM. You're listening to be tob growth,
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a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard
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before, like Gary vanner truck and
Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard
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from the majority of our guests.
That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't
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with professional speakers and authors. Most
of our guests are in the trenches leading
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sales and marketing teams. They're implementing
strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're
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building the fastest growing BTB companies in
the world. My name is James Carberry.
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I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands,
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and I'm also one of the CO
hosts of this show. When we're
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not interviewing sales and marketing leaders,
you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of
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our own business. Will share the
ups and downs of our journey as we
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attempt to take over the world.
Just getting well? Maybe let's get into
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the show. Welcome back to be
tob growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet
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fish media. Today I'm joined by
Seth Ellie that he is the chief marketing
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officer over at GTM. Hub Seth, how's it going today, sir,
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it's going great. Thanks, awesome. I am excited to chat with you.
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You guys are experts in Okrs,
something that we're rolling out here on
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the team at sweet fish and we're
going to be talking about not just okay
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ours, but managing and effective marketing
team. You know, we are early
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in the year. Folks are starting
to see where are some of their New
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Year's resolutions and their their beginning goals, or maybe they're still setting some of
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their two thousand and twenty goals.
So I think it's a very timely discussion
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for us to have today to put
some context to it. Those sets.
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I would love for you to share
with listeners a little bit about yourself and
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what you and the team at GTM
are up to these days. Sure,
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that's great. So my background is, I don't know, twenty plus years
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now in the startup industry, primarily
tech focused, but I've spent a great
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deal of time a cross industry types
and industry sets as an executive, everything
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from specially pharmaceuticals and cosmetics on one
hand, to mobile activation, consumer mobile
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and now gtm hub on the other. And I've held rolls at the executive
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sweet level, primarily a CMO,
but also I've served of Chaz Strategy Officer,
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as Chief Operating Officer and even as
as president in the past. So
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I have kind of a broader review
as to how teams interact with one another
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and what that means in regards to
managing and motivated them at the at the
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executive and then the team lead level, which is, I think, particularly
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relevant as to why both GTMM pub
wanted me to come there and why I
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chose to go to GTM hub.
At GTM hub, what we really are?
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We're as softwares of service ASSASS company
and we are delivering a platform for
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business outcome success. That business outcome
success, which sounds kind of, you
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know, maybe a little ambiguous in
nature, is founded upon what we have
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developed as the most powerful OK ours
software platform in in the world, in
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our opinion, and that's what we
key off of to help our clients deliver
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accelery to growth across their organizations.
I love it and, as I mentioned
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here in the intro seth the Oka
our methodology is something that we've been digging
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into lately. For anybody WHO's not
familiar with the OKA our methodology, can
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you give us just kind of the
three thousand hundred and sixty second definition there,
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just for context for anybody who might
not yet know that acronym? I
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think a lot of listeners do,
but I think it's worth just a quick
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pause there. Yeah, sure,
and I think you're right. I think
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a lot of listeners probably do,
because it's just really gained more and more
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momentum and in the last year or
so. But Ok ours stands for objectives
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and key results. It's a it's
a methodology that was pioneered originally by Andy
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Grove at Intel quite some number of
years ago. At the time, John
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Dore from Kleiner Perkins, the Venture
Capital Fund, worked at Intel and when
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he then went over to kind of
Perkins, he kind of ported the okay
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ours methodology with him and he then
tried to persuade a number of their portfolio
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companies of the value of using OK
ours. Most notably Google. So Google
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adopted OK ours as a management methodology
and then had a great deal of success
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using it. It's spread its way
to a certain degree through Silicon Valley.
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Not So long ago John Dore wrote
a book called measure what matters about Ok
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ours, among other things, and
the success that Google and other companies and
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organizations have had, and that's kind
of snowballed and so it's become much more
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prominent and and there are large number
of people adopting the okaurs methodology and it's
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designed to accelerate the growth and bridge
the gap, and this is where we
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really come in, bridge the gap
between strategy and execution for companies and other
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organizations. Yeah, absolutely. I
mean without execution you can have strategy coming
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out your ears and really no success. So what we try to do here
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on the show set, as as
you and I have talked about, as
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give folks some practical things that they
can use in execution. The first thing
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I know you wanted to share with
listeners on this topic of managing and effective
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marketing team is using data to align
marketing teams. You know, we talk
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a lot about the data driven marketer
and using data for better marketing outcomes,
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but we're usually talking more about what
we're doing to face the the end customer
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or our future customers. Tell us
a little bit about what you guys see
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the role of data in aligning marketing
teams internally. Sure, and I think
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for us, when we talk about
alignment, we don't think of it even
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so much as just aligning the internal
marketing team, although clearly that's some portant
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important but aligning the marketing team in
the context of the organization as a whole
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and amongst their other colleagues. And
one real important telling point on that subject
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is that only about nine percent of
managers say that they can rely on colleagues
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and other units most of the time, and that's a real big telling point
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when you think about the alignment issues
that may exist across teams and organizations.
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So how do you help solve that? Well, okay, ours is one
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way and we'll talk about that a
little bit later, but you also saw
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that with data. So first we
the same way that many other markers do,
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as you reference. We focus on
data in the marketing team. We
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focus on the outcomes that data suggest
and the insights that data brings. But
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we don't do that simply from the
standpoint of my team reporting to me and
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US evaluating their success outcomes from the
data that they are delivering to me across
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whether it's lead generation or sqls or
whatever our particular metrics are. We try
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to instrument the business as a whole
and then we instrument the individual parts of
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that business. So we're a SASS
business and the examples I just gave,
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I think are kind of valuable.
We have a funnel. That funnel begins
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with some form of leads that then
generally work their way down to, for
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us, marketing quality fied leads,
and then they work their way down to
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sales qualified leads, which are meetings, and then those meetings are passed to,
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obviously, the sales team, and
the a's then do something with those
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meetings, and so there's a whole
set of instrumentation around that data. But
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beyond the obviousness of that instrumentation,
there's data surrounding what actions have to be
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taken in order to succeed at those
key data points. So, for example,
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how many calls might a sales development
rep need to make on average in
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order to secure a sales qualified lead? How many enterprise leads does the marketing
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team need to drive on any individual
landing page in order to in general,
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funnel down to a sales qualified lead. So we take all of that data
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as the kind of the core that
we use amongst the colleagues, the marketing
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colleagues, and Mike Case Marketing also
includes SDR, sales development remps, report
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to me as Cmo, and then
we take that data and we align in
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that data across particularly our colleagues in
sales and a eve functions, but even
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with our colleagues across the product and
engineering teams, because so much of this
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is interrelated. And that's where I
think it becomes quite important is that when
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I'm managing the marketing team, the
obviousness of their individual performance from the specific
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data points that they're required to succeed
at is perhaps less the the issue that
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needs to be addressed then aligning that
data across the organization as a whole,
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and that's where I think it becomes
comes the leverage point, is to lever
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that data beyond just the simplicity of
the team itself. Yeah, you know,
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I hear a lot of marketing and
sales leaders going going back and forth
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on you know, it seems like
every organization is a little bit different in
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where sales development reports. It sounds
like they report into marketing, as you
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mentioned. For yourself set, do
you feel like that gives you a better
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ability to to collect and manage those
data points on the front end of the
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sales process, with the SDR team
rolling up into marketing? This is a
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very important question right for me personally, I feel that it does. I
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feel that it's an it's a natural
but I think it's very dependent on your
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organization and where where the responsibility lives. I view myself as Cmo as,
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and we do this, of course, at you tim hub, obviously,
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as responsible for generating lead flow,
lead flow that that drives its way all
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the way to the point where an
AE can legitimately have a sales call or
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a meeting. So it gives me
more than just a bird's eye view,
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it's the entire funnel conduit and by
by having that opportunity to manage the SDRs,
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not only do I see that,
but it really allows me to integrate
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the marketing team much more closely than
they might otherwise be in regards to sales.
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There's no question in the minds of
my marketing managers what they need to
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do. They breage really deal with
their colleagues next to them that are sales
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development reps. there's there's really never
any gap between an understanding of why are
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we marketing any activity that they engage
in as a marketer, which is to
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a certain degree also because we drink
our own champagne, and all of these
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individuals have okrs that are very clear
to them. But but having their colleague
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sitting right next to them makes that
alignment much stronger. And that alignment occurs
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not because not simply because they're in
the same room, but because they're all
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focusing on the same insights that come
from the data. Hey, everybody logan
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with sweet fish here. You probably
already know that we think you should start
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a podcast if you haven't already.
But what if you have and you're asking
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these kinds of questions? How much
has our podcast impacted revenue this year?
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How is our sales team actually leveraging
the PODCAST content? If you can't answer
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US growth. That's sea steed dot
US growth. All right, let's get
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back to the show. Yeah,
absolutely, and I can see how that
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you know that tighter relationship, that
closer proximity, leads to that. How
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about you know, you talked about
sales and then product in engineering, when
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they are a little bit further removed
from your department. Finding out what data
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can you collect to see how that
aligns in and inform what you do?
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What recommendations do you have further marketing
leaders about trying to align on on data
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if they don't have direct access over
the control of what data is being gathered,
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what they can see those sorts of
things in in those further removed points
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in sales and then in product as
well? Well, it's a little a
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little challenging to answer what what to
prescribe for someone else because we happen to
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be in the position, as I
said, at you know, you call
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it drinking your own cool aid.
We call it drinking our own champagne.
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We use the GTM hub platform in
our own business and part of what the
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GTM plub hub platform does is it
aggregates the data from a host of third
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party tools that we use and that
everybody else uses, everything from Jira to
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Google analytics, from your crm hub
spot or sales force to utilizing slacker ramus
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teams. And because we do that
and because, okay, ours by their
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very nature are designed to be transparent, that that flow of data, whether
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it's from my marketing team, used
by that them and therefore viewable by the
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engineering team, or whether it's a
set of engineering and product data that they
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are gathering, that's visible and actionable
by the company as a whole and therefore
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particularly my team. So my my
strong recommendation, whether, of course,
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the first recommendation is you should use
GTM hub as a platform, but the
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real recommendation in regards to what we
developed, is to have a source by
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which you can aggregate the data that
you're already pulling from all of your tools
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and surface that to the company or
to the managers as a whole for actionable
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insight purposes. Yeah, I mean
the common thread there, no matter what
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the platform, is the aggregation of
that data into, you know, more
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or less one dashboard, because if
everybody's looking at their own dashboard, then
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that's that's where the misalignment happens.
But to the extent that you can create
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a single dashboard from that aggregation of
data across the functions, that's where you
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can really start to see some improvement
set. The other thing I wanted to
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ask you about is this idea of
productivity management. You guys talk a lot
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about that. Productivity management is really
the job of any manager today. Can
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you unpack that a little bit for
us today, and especially within this context
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of running a more effective marketing team? I think it's quite interesting that we
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just happened to land on it right
now because it's super related to what you
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just asked about and a comment that
we were just talking about in regards to
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that data flow right. So,
if you think a little bit, even
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just an aggregated dashboard doesn't quite do
the trick necessarily. One of the truism's
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that I've found across particularly marketing teams
in the last decade or so is that
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data in of itself doesn't solve problems. Right insights solve problems. So if
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your data that you're surfacing isn't leading
to insights, you don't know how to
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solve problems or improve. And that
is very much related to what we were
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just talking about and it's super related
to productivity management, because there are a
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lot of tools out there to surface
data of both the perhaps the actions of
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any particular staff or individuals, as
well as the result sets that you're delivering
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from your marketing activities. But what
you really need to know is where are
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you supposed to be going, how
are you supposed to get there, and
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then instrument the results of a guy. I use the word instrumentation a lot
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because it's really an important component of
the way that we run our business,
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the way that I run my marketing
teams and the platform that we that we
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deliver, and it's because of the
circumstances that were referencing right now. So
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let's let's imagine that you have a
unified dashboard but you're not entirely sure what
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outcome you're focused on. Doesn't necessarily
help you. Let's imagine you have a
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unified dashboard but you can't develop insights
from it. You have an instrumented the
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business elements it. You don't know
where to go with that, and so
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the productivity management piece is a little
less, in my opinion, about how
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to manage. Hopefully that's a different
discussion that people can have in regards to
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some of the best practices of being
a manager and much more about how do
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you actually help your team to both
know where they should be going and how
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they're going to get there and then
evaluate data as it's coming in to help
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them optimize that process. So that
comes back again to two things, like
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saying, oh well, how many
visitors to this page do we need to
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have in order to drop this all
the way down the funnel to one sales
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qualified lead, and then you can
start instrumenting the elements of what are we
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doing in regards to things like click
through rates for the ads on channel X
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versus Channel Y. All of that
type of activity is stuff that I expect
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my marketing team to be able to
manage on their own, but I'm I'm
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there to help mentor the understanding of
the instrumentation and to help provide them with
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assistance in the optimization both my style
and the style at GTM hub is very
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much reliant upon. We try to
great, great, great people and we
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expect that they will focus on how
to get where they need to go and
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they look to their managers and executives
to help optimize that process. And that's
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what we think of. We think
of productivity management interesting. So you know,
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as someone was talking about this the
other day, I can't remember if
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this conversation of Linkedin or twitter or
something. I think it was a question,
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and someone in my network on Linkedin
asked about, you know, on
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the on a sales team, for
instance, how much leeway do you give
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in how prescriptive you are and how
things tend to get done? It seems
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like you kind of lean towards okay, if we have a dashboard and and
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to your point, a dashboard isn't
isn't the end all be all you have,
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because if I have a four year
old sitting in the seat of a
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car and sees a dashboard and sees
a sphenometer, that doesn't mean anything right
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one. Can they reach the pedals
and to do they know what the speed
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limit is and how to operate the
car? So kind of those next steps
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of learning to drive and obviously going
from four to sixteen. The analogy kind
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of broke down there. You're leaning
in this, I'd say. One side
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of the spectrum is being very prescriptive
on this is how we do it.
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The other side of the spectrum saying
these are the results we're trying to drive
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here. are kind of the the
lanes on the road. Stay between these
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and if you're kind of veering off, come to your manager for some guidance
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on maybe how to do it more
effectively. It sounds like you lean more
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on that ladder side of that.
Is that fair to say? So it
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is fair to say both philosophically but
also because of the deployment of effective objectives
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and key results. That's the lynchpin
that allows for that and the one can
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you can almost think of objectives and
key results as the counterpoint to command and
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control. Right, you have a
command and control style organization and objectives and
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key results are designed to say,
listen, let's let's sign Poe most the
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major directions at each perhaps step of
the organization, whether you want to say
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the CEO level or the you know, group team level, but let's assume
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that the individuals on the ground are
the ones best equipped to figure out how
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to achieve the goals of where we
want to go and to identify their key
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objectives and their key results that need
to be achieved in order to move the
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organization forward. And so it's only
because we have this framework of okres alongside
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another important piece, which we'll talk
about in a moment, which is the
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ability to to in real time,
evaluate the progress on those key results.
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But it's only by having that strong
Okr environment that, I think, that
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we can do more than pay lip
service to the idea that we just said,
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that we can actualize it in the
other yeah, absolutely, and so
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that really kind of ties nicely into
the last thing I wanted to chat with
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you about today, seth and that
is what some call that, that regular
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cadence of accountability in the okay our
system. It's really where the rubber meets
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the road in in setting and working
towards those key results and tying those big
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picture priorities to the daily tasks.
Let's let's camp bound on that as we
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as we wrap up today and give
folks some actionable next steps to kind of
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bring it down to the ground level. Sure, and I think we really
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it's funny the analogy of bringing it
down to the ground level as a good
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one, because we have to start
at the Fiftyzero foot level. And the
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reason we have to start there is
that strategy has to be articulated. That's
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the first thing, right, for
an optimized marketing strategy or for an optimized
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organizational approach, you have to identify
and articulate the essential goals that you're focused
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on. And something like just over
fifty percent of middle managers. It's like
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fifty five percent of middle managers can
name one out of five of their company's
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top priorities. So it's a little
bit worse than it sounds. Right,
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they've given been given five chances to
name one top priority and only fifty five
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percent of them can even do that. The first fifty percent can name twenty
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percent. That's rust all. It's
like gets its fifty percent. It sounds
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bad, but it's a it's worse
than it's much worse than that. Right,
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exactly right. And so first you
have to start there, right,
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and then from that foundation you can
start empowering individual employees to help define success
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and identify how to get there.
So we talked a little bit about that.
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Right now, the issue becomes.
What's the reality about that? Well,
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in large organizations especially, sometimes things
like okay ours simply go awry,
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and the one of the reasons they
go awry is it's great to talk about
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strategy and then it's great to talk
about allowing the person on the ground to
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to really set the the daily direction
in order to achieve that strategy, but
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the where the rubber meets the road
is is that happening? And in in
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kind of traditional Ok our methodology,
you have these weekly Checkens, but in
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order to do weekly Checkens, you
have to update the status of each of
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those key results, which means that
if you're not careful, you end up
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with hundreds or thousands of people spending
hundreds of thousands of ours okring instead of
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doing their jobs and getting the power
of okrs. So in order to connect
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the strategy and the execution, in
order to take advantage of the power that
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we're talking about, these superpowers of
o Kurs, something else has to has
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to kind of split their way into
the mix. So what we've done is
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is created something that we call dynamic
key results, and this goes back to
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the whole idea of using data,
and it's particularly relevant for marketing teams,
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but it's relevant for any team across
the organization, in any individual in our
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appearance, in our opinion, and
that is to connect all of those data
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tools that everyone is using every day
anyway into the key results on an automated
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basis so that you, as an
individual can quite easily see what your progress
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is without having to go spend time
figuring out the update and then perhaps,
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as importantly, your manager or your
executives or your colleague across teams can also
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see what progress is not simply on
a weekly basis but on a real time
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basis, and so this real time, I'm issue becomes quite important in today's
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world. Being able to see the
execution on a real time basis on a
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day by day basis helps identify where
is it not working. Now I can
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go we could spend a lot more
time talking about the kind of the for
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quadrants of what happens when you have
strategy on one side and execution on the
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other, and we can talk about
each of the quadrants that that occurs in
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terms of when strategy is working,
when execution isn't, vice versa, and
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etc. But suffice it to say
that I think that you can kind of
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get the picture that in order to
connect these daily activities to the big picture
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priorities, there's a method, the
dology for it. But if you don't
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have a mechanism that truly allows for
the real time of valuation, that methodology
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maybe starts to fall flat and it
doesn't serve you. And that's what we
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find to be really important. So
by by using these the data to align
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teams. In my case it's a
marketing team, but in our case it's
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teams as a whole, so to
cross a line teams within and across the
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organization, to focus on helping them
achieve productivity, by using that framework to
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instrument the business, and then to
add this idea of a dynamic key results
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so that that instrumentation is visible in
real time. That's what allows us,
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I think, to create these really
highly leverage affect teams, and particularly on
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the marketing and St our side.
Man Seth, you wrapped it up better
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than than I could. That's exactly
where where I was going, you know,
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as I thought about what you've shared
here. Those were really the three
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points that I think everyone can learn
something from. So I won't I want
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just wrap them up here again.
You can hit the thirty two back button.
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Set did a really great job.
Everybody. Just hit that back,
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that back button and identify those,
those three keys that you want to take
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away from this episode. I think
you've given us some very actionable stuff.
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We've talked, you know, kind
of the philosophical reasons behind some of these
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recommendations and then some very solid recommendations
on down to, you know, how
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do we make key results people not
spend a ton of time reporting on those
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key results? Where can we find
automation to be able to self report without
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taking time to do that so that
they can be more effective? Just so
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many things here. I think you've
brought some really great advice to listeners today.
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Seth. I think there's definitely some
opportunity for us to go further,
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maybe in another episode, on that
strategy versus execution and breaking down that further
345
00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:15.500
for folks. For now, if
anybody listening to this has become a fast
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00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:18.369
fan of yours, just like me, what's the best way for them to
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00:26:18.410 --> 00:26:22.049
reach out, stay connected with you
or learn more about gt m hub?
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Sure? Well, of course,
for g tim hub, you can go
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00:26:25.569 --> 00:26:30.490
to GTM hubcom and if you're interested
in the platform. There's a free trial
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00:26:30.690 --> 00:26:33.319
that you can always use on the
platform. If you're an enterprise, we
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have all types of bells and whistles
and I'd be happy to have you connect
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with with some of our experts.
But for any company, we actually have
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something that's really exciting and that is
a core are Okur software platform for a
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00:26:48.829 --> 00:26:52.750
dollar per user, for less than
a cup of coffee, and that also
355
00:26:52.750 --> 00:26:53.950
there's a free trial, so you
can you can dig your way in and
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00:26:55.109 --> 00:26:57.069
play with that. In regards to
me personally, you can always reach out
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00:26:57.069 --> 00:27:00.859
to me on Linkedin. It's it's
pretty easy to find me. You can
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00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:04.779
contact me via GTM hub and if
you want to pay me on twitter,
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00:27:04.900 --> 00:27:08.619
it's seth a Elliott, two ells
and two teas. I love it.
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Set, thank you so much for
being a great guest on the show today.
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No, no, it's my pleasure. I'm really glad we've got to
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00:27:14.539 --> 00:27:19.569
chat. If that's really great.
Hey there, this is James Carberry,
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00:27:19.609 --> 00:27:22.769
founder of street fish media and one
of the cohosts of this show. The
364
00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:26.329
last year and a half I've been
working on my very first book. In
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00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:30.279
the book, I share the three
part framework we used as the foundation for
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00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.839
our growth here is sweetfish. Now
there are lots of companies that ever he's
367
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.359
a bunch of money and have grown
insanely fast, and we featured a lot
368
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.119
of them here on the show.
We've decided to booststrap our business, which
369
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.910
usually equates to pretty slow growth,
but using the strategy outlined in the book,
370
00:27:47.309 --> 00:27:49.670
we are on pace to be one
of ink's fastest growing companies in two
371
00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:53.589
thousand and twenty. The book is
called content based networking, how to instantly
372
00:27:53.710 --> 00:27:57.069
connect with anyone you want to know. If you're a fan of audio books
373
00:27:57.109 --> 00:28:00.180
like me, you can find the
book on audible, or if you like
374
00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:03.220
physical books, you can also find
it on Amazon. Just search content based
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00:28:03.259 --> 00:28:08.980
networking or James Carberry, ther be
aary, inaudible, or Amazon and it
376
00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:10.900
should pop right up.