1278: Strategies to Grow Your Podcast Audience w/ Dan Misener

WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:07.669 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Dan Sanchez, was sweet fish 2 00:00:07.750 --> 00:00:10.630 media, and today I'm joined with Dan Meisner, who is the head of 3 00:00:10.710 --> 00:00:14.830 strategy and audience development at Pacific content. Are You doing today, Dan? 4 00:00:15.429 --> 00:00:19.269 I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely and thanks for 5 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.739 take making time to record this episode. Today we're going to be talking about 6 00:00:22.739 --> 00:00:27.620 strategies to grow your podcast audience at launch, but before we do, Dan, 7 00:00:27.660 --> 00:00:30.260 can you tell us a little bit about what you and the team at 8 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:35.850 Pacific content have been up to? Yeah, Pacific content is a slightly odd 9 00:00:36.329 --> 00:00:42.929 company in that we really only do one thing within the podcast ecosystem, and 10 00:00:43.130 --> 00:00:48.890 that is we make original podcasts with brands. We don't have our own editorial 11 00:00:48.969 --> 00:00:53.640 slate, we don't make our own shows, we don't have an advertising network, 12 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.520 we don't have inventory to sell. Really, what we do is we 13 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:03.349 work with forward thinking brands who want to make a genuine audience first show. 14 00:01:03.829 --> 00:01:07.150 So that's the only thing that we do, and we like to think for 15 00:01:07.310 --> 00:01:11.189 pretty good at it. I think so. I've gone and listen to multiple 16 00:01:11.189 --> 00:01:15.549 episodes from multiple the podcast you guys are produced and I could say like it's 17 00:01:15.909 --> 00:01:19.219 they are high end. I mean, it's almost like ear candy, like 18 00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:23.939 it sounds so good and it's fun to jump into those episodes. So Pacific 19 00:01:25.060 --> 00:01:27.019 content. I think you guys are in a league in yourselves and as far 20 00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:32.579 as podcast producing it's pretty remarkable stuff. Well, thank you. And one 21 00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:36.250 of the things that we've noticed, especially with the style of show that we 22 00:01:36.370 --> 00:01:41.129 typically do, which is, as you say, pretty heavily produced, really 23 00:01:41.209 --> 00:01:47.840 high production values, often narrative style storytelling shows. What we've found is that, 24 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:52.640 especially for brands, that is one of the ways you can differentiate yourself 25 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:55.879 right. You know, we're on a podcast right now which is two people 26 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.599 with two microphones on a zoom connection, and those, some of my favorite 27 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:05.310 shows are done that way. But it's a whole lot more difficult to pull 28 00:02:05.349 --> 00:02:09.270 off something with higher production values. And if what you want to do is 29 00:02:09.349 --> 00:02:15.069 set yourself apart sort of bumping up the quality, bumping up the production values, 30 00:02:15.150 --> 00:02:17.860 having sort of a scripted or a narrative style series, that is one 31 00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:23.219 way that we found the brands can sort of set themselves apart. Absolutely so 32 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:28.379 when you're first working with these brands and they're launching their podcast, what what 33 00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:30.569 are some things that a company needs to consider before they even get started. 34 00:02:30.650 --> 00:02:35.770 How do you help them with that? So when we start to work with 35 00:02:36.090 --> 00:02:38.969 a new client, one of the most important things that we talked about is 36 00:02:39.210 --> 00:02:46.240 the intersection of what we call creative bravery and commitment. These are really the 37 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:51.159 two key ingredients in any successful podcast from a brand and, I would argue, 38 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:55.120 any successful podcast from anybody. And when I talk about creative bravery, 39 00:02:55.599 --> 00:03:00.430 that means making a genuine and lie good show. I think it's really, 40 00:03:00.509 --> 00:03:04.909 really easy, especially if your company, especially if you're a brand, it's 41 00:03:05.030 --> 00:03:09.310 really, really easy to make something that feels like a brochure or an infommercial. 42 00:03:09.509 --> 00:03:15.379 It's really easy to put your your own comms people on Mike and have 43 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:21.860 them interview your own SMS, have them interview your your own executives about your 44 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:25.300 own products, about your own services. It's really easy to make sort of 45 00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:30.689 a fairly navel gaysy kind of show if you're a brand. And so when 46 00:03:30.729 --> 00:03:34.610 we talk about creative bravery, we're talking about making something that is not that, 47 00:03:34.849 --> 00:03:37.409 that is not a brochure, that is not an infommercial, but is 48 00:03:37.490 --> 00:03:43.400 really about the thing that you have to say that nobody else can offer and 49 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.960 where that meets up with what audience is actually want to hear, right, 50 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:54.520 because very few people are going to voluntarily opt into listening to the audio equivalent 51 00:03:54.599 --> 00:04:00.430 of a brochure where your executives are talking about your products, your services. 52 00:04:01.110 --> 00:04:05.349 It's a whole lot easier to build sort of an audience first show designed to 53 00:04:05.550 --> 00:04:12.740 stand up and to compete very favorably against not just other branded podcasts or other 54 00:04:12.860 --> 00:04:17.220 shows from brands, but compete against everything else that somebody could choose to listen 55 00:04:17.259 --> 00:04:21.180 to. And so when we talk about creative bravery, we're talking about making 56 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:27.649 a genuine audience first show. That's the first part and that's a paradigm shift 57 00:04:27.769 --> 00:04:31.250 for a lot of companies. Right, don't make it about yourself. You 58 00:04:31.329 --> 00:04:33.569 know, you don't want to be the person at the party who only wants 59 00:04:33.649 --> 00:04:38.209 to talk about themselves. Nobody wants to hang out with that person. And 60 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.879 so that's the first part creative bravery. And then when we talk about commitment, 61 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:48.000 that's about using all of your own channels, your internal channels, doing 62 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:53.790 some paid doing some earned work, like using all of the tools in your 63 00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:58.509 tool kit to reach the right people at the right time. So basically, 64 00:04:58.629 --> 00:05:00.750 make a good show and tell people about it. You put those two things 65 00:05:00.829 --> 00:05:05.750 together, that is the foundation of success for a podcast, I would argue, 66 00:05:05.790 --> 00:05:10.500 from a brand, but really from anybody. I love that, Dan. 67 00:05:10.579 --> 00:05:13.300 I love how when you guys first approach it, it's almost like how 68 00:05:13.339 --> 00:05:16.980 a startup approaches developing a product, you know, in the customer discovery process, 69 00:05:17.019 --> 00:05:20.180 because it's not about you and what you can make right. It's about 70 00:05:20.529 --> 00:05:25.850 what your audience wants, what they need, maybe, what their problems are, 71 00:05:26.009 --> 00:05:29.529 what's not out there on the market. Right. It's about finding something 72 00:05:29.569 --> 00:05:33.930 that you can are especially equipped to deliver, using empathy, using, I 73 00:05:34.009 --> 00:05:38.240 don't know, just being connected to your your customer, being connected to your 74 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.120 audience, in order to deliver something that they'll find remarkable. It's about right. 75 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:46.040 Yeah, yeah, I mean Tom Webster from Edison Research Talks about what 76 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:51.750 is the audience or what is your audience clamoring for at any particular moment? 77 00:05:51.910 --> 00:05:59.189 And odds are they're not clamoring for a discussion among your companies executives. They're 78 00:05:59.230 --> 00:06:01.389 clamoring for things that are going to provide value in their lives, that they're 79 00:06:01.389 --> 00:06:05.980 going to find useful, that are going to apply to them in a personal 80 00:06:06.019 --> 00:06:11.139 way. Things that are going to be resonant and I think if you start 81 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:15.579 with that audience first mindset, that's where we would always steer people. Yeah, 82 00:06:15.660 --> 00:06:19.730 you want to sort of make the show that your audience is clamoring for 83 00:06:20.250 --> 00:06:23.250 and you want to make the show that, again, this is a Tom 84 00:06:23.370 --> 00:06:26.930 Webster is m make the show that only you can make. What is the 85 00:06:27.009 --> 00:06:30.689 take that you have? What is the POV that you have? What is 86 00:06:30.769 --> 00:06:32.959 the access that you have? What are the stories that you can tell that 87 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.319 nobody else can tell? What is the show that you, as a brand, 88 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:42.040 are uniquely suited to tell? That's that's where we're trying to get to. 89 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:46.350 And you usually use like customer surveys, interviews. Do you come up 90 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:49.430 with us some hypothesis is as far as what would work, and then test 91 00:06:49.509 --> 00:06:56.189 them early on? How do you find what audiences are clamoring for? So 92 00:06:56.310 --> 00:07:00.540 the great news about working with the kinds of forward thinking businesses that Pacific content 93 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:04.819 works with is that a lot of them have done this work already. Right, 94 00:07:04.939 --> 00:07:08.459 so we work with, or give you an example, we work with 95 00:07:08.579 --> 00:07:15.850 red hat. There an open source software company. They have spent decades working 96 00:07:15.889 --> 00:07:21.089 in and alongside the open source community. They have developer advocates, they have 97 00:07:21.209 --> 00:07:26.930 people who are in support who are talking to customers and clients every single day. 98 00:07:27.009 --> 00:07:30.160 They are deeply embedded in the open source community. They live and they 99 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:36.480 breathe that, and so the great news there is they've already got a deep 100 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:41.240 understanding of who their core audience is. We make a show with red hat 101 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:46.350 called command line heroes, which is all about open source software development and open 102 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:51.230 source principles and how those have played out over history, and it's a great 103 00:07:51.269 --> 00:07:59.139 show designed to reach open source software developers, SISIDMIN's IT architects, technologists. 104 00:07:59.259 --> 00:08:01.819 That's who they're trying to reach, and so when we first started working with 105 00:08:01.939 --> 00:08:07.660 red hat on that project, it was such a gift that they had already 106 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:11.930 done a tremendous amount of audience research. They knew who they wanted to talk 107 00:08:11.970 --> 00:08:16.610 to because they'd already been talking to them for years and years and years and 108 00:08:16.689 --> 00:08:24.329 years. So things like actual customer stories, things like persona work, all 109 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:28.439 that stuff is often very, very helpful, especially when we're learning about a 110 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.840 company and trying to understand their goals and then to translate their brand voice into 111 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:39.000 compelling audio product and make so much sense to tap into just their existing research 112 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:41.149 and assets that they've already compiled and then you get to go and mine it 113 00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:46.549 and find essentially come up with ideas for the the content that will work. 114 00:08:46.070 --> 00:08:50.429 So that's great. But once you have that, and I wouldn't pretend to 115 00:08:50.750 --> 00:08:54.669 I would not pretend to know better than red hat what open source software or 116 00:08:54.710 --> 00:09:01.059 developers want. Right, like they are genuinely the experts in their audience, 117 00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:05.700 in their industry, and I think when Pacific content works with a company, 118 00:09:07.379 --> 00:09:11.490 it's really a coming together of two teams. Right, our clients bring their 119 00:09:11.570 --> 00:09:16.009 expertise about their industry, their audience, who they're already talking to, who 120 00:09:16.049 --> 00:09:18.570 they want to talk to more, and what Pacific content brings to the table 121 00:09:18.889 --> 00:09:24.159 is that audio expertise how to tell stories through sound, how to package this 122 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.000 stuff and how to market audio products. And this is one of the things, 123 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.080 and I think we're going to get into this, it's like there's not 124 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:37.759 a tremendous amount of expertise or experience in marketing audio products. We were with 125 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.629 a lot of clients who are very, very good at marketing their services, 126 00:09:41.750 --> 00:09:45.110 marketing their products, selling what they do. They're good at that and they've 127 00:09:45.110 --> 00:09:46.710 done it for very long time. But what's sort of new and interesting about 128 00:09:46.710 --> 00:09:50.190 audio work, and podcasting work in particular, is that there's not a tremendous 129 00:09:50.190 --> 00:09:56.100 amount of expertise in marketing an audio product, marketing a media product, and 130 00:09:56.220 --> 00:10:01.580 sort of the foundational idea of Pacific content as a company is that we help 131 00:10:01.620 --> 00:10:07.850 our clients think and act more like media companies and that's the win in our 132 00:10:07.889 --> 00:10:11.409 books. So there's a lot of work that goes into making that content amazing 133 00:10:11.490 --> 00:10:15.409 and once you kind of have an idea and a plan and start working on 134 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:18.409 production, this is probably where you come in as the the head of audience 135 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:22.519 development. What are some of the early steps you take to make sure that 136 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.840 when this thing hits long lunch day, you're not just starting the promotion then 137 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:30.639 like you've been working on it building up to that? What are some of 138 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:33.679 those those processes you put in place? So I'm really, really lucky in 139 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:39.590 that over the past couple of years we've made a big dent in this idea 140 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:45.669 that audience development or podcast marketing is an afterthought. That's the wrong way to 141 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:48.789 think about this. It's not like you make the show and then figure out 142 00:10:48.230 --> 00:10:52.580 how we going to get people to listen to this. That's backwards in my 143 00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:56.820 mind, and the way I think of audience development is, you know, 144 00:10:56.620 --> 00:11:01.659 it's almost the flip side of the editorial right. So people often ask me, 145 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:05.850 because my job title includes the words Audience Development, people ask me, 146 00:11:05.409 --> 00:11:09.730 okay, how do I build an audience for my podcast? And in a 147 00:11:09.809 --> 00:11:15.850 lot of ways that is a very understandable, natural question to ask. How 148 00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:18.200 do I build an audience for my podcast? I get why people ask that 149 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.000 question, but in a lot of ways I think it's the wrong question. 150 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:24.720 Right, I want to start from a place where we're not trying to build 151 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:31.559 an audience for your podcast, but I'm trying to help you understand that step 152 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:35.269 zero is build a podcast for your audience. Figure out what are they clamoring 153 00:11:35.309 --> 00:11:39.509 for, what do they want, what are they not getting already, what 154 00:11:39.669 --> 00:11:43.429 are we uniquely suited to offer them, and then you build the show for 155 00:11:43.590 --> 00:11:46.179 the audience that you want to reach. That is that like, that is 156 00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:50.500 step zero. That is that is the very, very beginning and it's a 157 00:11:50.580 --> 00:11:54.299 subtle thing, but I think it's a really important thing that a podcast marketing 158 00:11:54.340 --> 00:11:58.899 audience development. It is not an afterthought and it is not a bag of 159 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:03.610 tricks that I can somehow sprinkle onto any show and expect great results from. 160 00:12:05.409 --> 00:12:11.210 You can't treat your podcast marketing as an afterthought and if you're not thinking about 161 00:12:11.210 --> 00:12:16.480 audience development from day one and actually building a show to serve an audience, 162 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.399 I think you're doing it wrong. So I think you know that's not super 163 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.639 tactical, but it's a mindset shift that I think a lot of people need 164 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.480 and could benefit from. Absolutely. I mean the products got to be remarkable. 165 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.110 It's got to be that purple cow right from Steff Goden's book exactly to 166 00:12:33.269 --> 00:12:35.870 start, and that makes it a lot easier when you actually start promoting this 167 00:12:37.029 --> 00:12:39.909 thing. Do you do any work to prep clients, to help them like 168 00:12:41.590 --> 00:12:43.710 get ready for that launch day, or do you kind of have like a 169 00:12:43.789 --> 00:12:46.580 mindset of like, if we build it, they will come? So it 170 00:12:46.899 --> 00:12:52.179 absolutely not. If we build it, they will come, and we do 171 00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:56.779 a lot of work around around sort of client education, because for many of 172 00:12:56.860 --> 00:13:01.169 the companies we work with this is their first for a into audio work, 173 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:07.409 podcast work and and so sort of my general approach. Before we get into 174 00:13:07.409 --> 00:13:11.250 any sort of deep tactical stuff with clients, I often talk about the lenses 175 00:13:11.409 --> 00:13:15.679 that we use to think about audience development, and some of those are are 176 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.919 sort of audience specific. So we talked a lot about the difference between preaching 177 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.759 to the converted versus growing the Pie. And when I say that I mean 178 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:28.029 you know, depending on who you ask, anywhere from a quarter to a 179 00:13:28.149 --> 00:13:33.750 third of the American population self identifies as a regular podcast listener, which means 180 00:13:33.830 --> 00:13:39.309 most people are not regular podcast listeners. You know, anywhere from two thirds 181 00:13:39.389 --> 00:13:45.179 to three quarters of the US population not regular podcast listeners. And so strategically, 182 00:13:45.700 --> 00:13:50.259 you want to have this lens of what's our strategy for reaching existing podcast 183 00:13:50.299 --> 00:13:54.419 listeners and what is our strategy for growing the Pie? What is our strategy 184 00:13:54.500 --> 00:14:01.210 for reaching people who do not yet self identify as regular podcast listeners? And 185 00:14:01.289 --> 00:14:05.970 this is I think we're brands often have a pretty big advantage because they often 186 00:14:05.049 --> 00:14:11.039 have owned channels that can be used to introduce people not just to their show 187 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.279 but to an entire medium, and that's a powerful place to be. So 188 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.960 the first lens that we typically talked about is, okay, what are we 189 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:22.279 going to do to reach existing podcast listeners and what are we going to do 190 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.190 to reach people who are not yet fans of the medium. That's one big 191 00:14:26.309 --> 00:14:31.190 Lens. We also sort of slice it up by time, looking at the 192 00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:35.710 schedule. Right, so thinking about very distinct phases in the marketing plan for 193 00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:41.299 a show. What are we going to do prior to launch? What is 194 00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:45.940 the build up period where we've got maybe a trailer or a teaser or receding 195 00:14:46.539 --> 00:14:52.529 early access to episodes for internal audiences, finding the podcast club that already exists 196 00:14:52.610 --> 00:14:56.409 inside the company and getting those people on board. You know, what do 197 00:14:56.490 --> 00:14:58.850 you do in the in the lead up, in the buildup, before you've 198 00:14:58.850 --> 00:15:01.690 ever launched a single episode? Right? So we think about the pre launch 199 00:15:01.809 --> 00:15:05.490 period and some of the tactics that you can employed there. We think about 200 00:15:05.649 --> 00:15:11.120 a series launch. Hey, the show exists, boom, what's the big 201 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:16.639 splash there? We also think about episodic promotion and I think for a lot 202 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.240 of shows each and every episode that you release is an opportunity to build a 203 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.350 marketing campaign around that specific episode. Right. We work on a lot of 204 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:30.590 shows where each episode is is distinct enough and maybe covers a different industry or 205 00:15:30.629 --> 00:15:35.309 covers a different topic, covers a different business approach that there are unique cohorts 206 00:15:35.389 --> 00:15:39.179 within the overall audience that you could reach. Right, good example of this 207 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:43.980 we do a show with Zen desk called repeat customer, and each and every 208 00:15:45.019 --> 00:15:48.460 episode features a different company, a different business tactic and a different industry. 209 00:15:48.740 --> 00:15:52.529 Right. So, whether we're doing an episode about cruise ships or we're doing 210 00:15:52.570 --> 00:15:56.730 an episode about bed sheets, you can market those two different episodes in very, 211 00:15:56.769 --> 00:16:00.129 very different ways. So we think about episodic marketing. And then the 212 00:16:00.769 --> 00:16:04.679 other sort of final phase that we tend to think about is is back catalog 213 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:10.879 promotion, the ongoing promotion, because if you're making episodes that are designed to 214 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.879 have a long shelf life, that are designed to be evergreen, you want 215 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.879 to, you know, get all the Jews you can squeeze out of those 216 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:22.950 episodes that you made. And so if you've got fairly timeless material, what 217 00:16:22.070 --> 00:16:26.549 are the things that you can do six months, a year, two years, 218 00:16:26.830 --> 00:16:30.190 ten years after the episode dropped to get more ears on it? So, 219 00:16:30.909 --> 00:16:34.059 again, coming back to this idea of lenses, it's it's sort of 220 00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:38.860 preaching to the converted versus growing the Pie. And then, sort of based 221 00:16:38.899 --> 00:16:41.460 on time, what are you doing pre launch, what are you doing at 222 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:44.740 launch? What are you doing for each and every episode and then what are 223 00:16:44.779 --> 00:16:48.250 you doing in an ongoing way to continue to market the back catalog? And 224 00:16:48.289 --> 00:16:53.730 so when we initially engage with a client, we're talking again strategically about all 225 00:16:53.769 --> 00:16:57.090 of those different elements and then we sort of dive into some of the tactics 226 00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:03.519 which which I'm happy to talk more about. Absolutely. In fact, before 227 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.119 we jumped onto this episode, I was talking about like how will heat out. 228 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.599 Dam would build a plan for different size companies, because obviously it changes 229 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.839 depending on how how large the company has. So let's dive into like what 230 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.509 that would look like for maybe a small company, a company that's maybe, 231 00:17:18.190 --> 00:17:22.430 you know, around the size of like a million in revenue. They want 232 00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:26.150 to start a podcast because they know it's great for top of funnel engagement, 233 00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:29.390 it's great for building an audience, but they don't have too much of a 234 00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:32.779 budget to go out there and do a lot of paid media around growing their 235 00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:36.299 audience. So what would you say like some of the best best things that 236 00:17:36.420 --> 00:17:40.140 can do, assuming they have some pretty good content? Yeah, I mean, 237 00:17:40.180 --> 00:17:42.420 if you don't have a lot of dollars to spend, the good news 238 00:17:42.500 --> 00:17:48.769 is outside of paid hopefully you've got some owned channels that you've been building up. 239 00:17:49.009 --> 00:17:56.890 Hopefully you've got some earned opportunities and some friendlies and you know, perhaps 240 00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:02.400 there are internal resources that you can tap into. I mean on the smaller 241 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:03.079 side. You know, what can I do? What can I do for 242 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:07.599 free? There are lots of great free ways to market a good audio product 243 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:14.150 and you know, thinking about those lenses, thinking about how do we mark 244 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:19.309 it to existing podcast listeners? Things like Promo swaps, things like feed drops, 245 00:18:19.430 --> 00:18:25.910 things like podcast guesting. These are often no cost or low cost ways 246 00:18:26.390 --> 00:18:32.019 to market your show in on a authentic and incredible way, and I think 247 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:36.420 the key to doing that is not doing it with an eye to necessarily building 248 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:41.339 your audience as a direct result, but actively participating in sort of the audio 249 00:18:41.609 --> 00:18:47.569 community and actively learning about the medium. Right. So I think I think 250 00:18:47.650 --> 00:18:52.369 feed swaps, I think podcast cross Promo, I think guesting. I think 251 00:18:52.410 --> 00:18:57.279 those are all valuable ways to spend little or no money and expand your network 252 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:03.279 and expand your reach. I think if you've got a little bit of money, 253 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:04.960 if you got some paid dollars to spend, the good news is if 254 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:10.789 you've got a very, very targeted audience or you're reaching trying to reach a 255 00:19:10.829 --> 00:19:18.269 niche, demographic there are often smaller shows with devoted followings where a couple grand 256 00:19:18.309 --> 00:19:23.230 or even a couple hundred dollars with a well targeted ad by can go a 257 00:19:23.299 --> 00:19:29.299 long way. Right. If I'm a really into fly fishing and I've got 258 00:19:29.339 --> 00:19:33.579 a fly fishing business and I want to reach fly fishing enthusiasts, there are 259 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:37.500 definitely fly fishing podcast that I can reach out to that do not have massive 260 00:19:37.650 --> 00:19:44.529 reach and are not hitting Joe Rogan style numbers, but are hitting exactly who 261 00:19:44.569 --> 00:19:47.730 I want to hit right. So, if I'm a fly fishing supplier and 262 00:19:47.930 --> 00:19:51.849 I want to reach fly fishing enthusiasts, the good news is it's not hard 263 00:19:51.890 --> 00:19:56.680 to find the good fly fishing podcasts. And if I've got something that is 264 00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.920 distinct in the market place, if I've got a unique take, where I've 265 00:19:59.960 --> 00:20:03.720 got access to unique guests, where I have a star storytelling approach, or 266 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:07.750 I'm doing the world's first fly fishing game show podcast and I've got something different 267 00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:15.869 to offer, then finding those adjacent shows and then collaborating with them, maybe 268 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.670 buying ads on their show, may be paying for a feed drop, that 269 00:20:18.710 --> 00:20:21.539 kind of thing. That's where I think you know a couple hundred or a 270 00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:25.539 couple of thousand dollars can really go quite a long way. But it works 271 00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:29.259 best, I find, when you're really targeting a niche audience, so that 272 00:20:29.299 --> 00:20:33.980 you're not there's not a lot of wasteach. Hey, everybody, logan the 273 00:20:33.019 --> 00:20:37.970 sweet fish here. You probably already know that we think you should start a 274 00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:41.690 podcast if you haven't already. But what if you have and you're asking these 275 00:20:41.809 --> 00:20:45.769 kinds of questions? How much has our podcast impacted revenue this year? How's 276 00:20:45.809 --> 00:20:51.359 our sales team actually leveraging the podcast on tent? If you can't answer these 277 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.599 questions, you're actually not alone. This is why I cast it created the 278 00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:00.440 very first content marketing platform made specifically for be tob podcasting. Now you can 279 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:07.670 more easily search and share your audio content while getting greater visibility into the impact 280 00:21:07.789 --> 00:21:11.829 of your podcast. The marketing teams at drift terminus and here at sweet fish 281 00:21:12.029 --> 00:21:17.230 have started using casted to get more value out of our podcasts, and you 282 00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:21.819 probably can to. You can check out the product in action and casted dot 283 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:30.180 US growth. That's sea steed dot US growth. All right, let's get 284 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:37.410 back to the show. It's interesting you you talk about paid just in terms 285 00:21:37.450 --> 00:21:44.009 of promoting on other niche podcast that are similar to yours. Would you dip 286 00:21:44.049 --> 00:21:48.640 into paid social at all? Before I would dip into paid social, I 287 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.440 would think about some of the opportunities that have come along just over the past 288 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.599 year or so. You know, for a while there were podcast APPs, 289 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.829 you know, places like overcast, where you could spend a couple hundred dollars 290 00:22:02.029 --> 00:22:07.309 on paid in APP Promo and that's very much a preaching to the converted tactic. 291 00:22:07.589 --> 00:22:11.549 When you buy display ads inside podcast APPS, you're only reaching people who 292 00:22:11.549 --> 00:22:15.500 are already inside a podcast APP. So you know there's a high likelihood that 293 00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:21.940 if you're advertising inside a podcast APP that you're reaching existing podcast listeners. Cool, 294 00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:25.460 great, wonderful. And you know overcast, I think, started doing 295 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:27.220 this a couple of years ago and just over the past year or so we've 296 00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:32.769 seen more and more sort of small self serve style buys that you can do 297 00:22:33.650 --> 00:22:38.009 in places like. I think Castro offers this. I believe cast box offers 298 00:22:38.130 --> 00:22:41.890 this, as some of the some of the PODCAST APPS that are out there 299 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:47.720 that have maybe small, single digit percentage market share but passionate audiences who have 300 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.559 opted into use a third party podcast APP. I think those can be really, 301 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:53.079 really smart buys, again depending on the show and what you're trying to 302 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:57.869 what you're trying to advertise. So those are all some amazing tips for small 303 00:22:57.950 --> 00:23:02.829 companies with small budgets to back their their podcast. What would you do with 304 00:23:02.910 --> 00:23:07.150 the midsize company that maybe starting to roll around and know five to ten grand 305 00:23:07.230 --> 00:23:10.069 and adspend to throughout this, and I mean five to ten grand maybe like 306 00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:14.779 on a monthly, monthly budget in order to push this podcast out? Obviously 307 00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:18.140 they're going to do this stuff maybe that the small business could do and swapping 308 00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:22.420 episodes and things like that, but what would you like level on there to 309 00:23:22.579 --> 00:23:26.410 get them a larger audience? Yeah, I mean on the paid side. 310 00:23:26.450 --> 00:23:33.009 I'm really interested in some of the programmatic opportunities that are out there. So 311 00:23:33.210 --> 00:23:38.970 I know megaphone, through their mtm marketplace, and art nineteen have fairly robust 312 00:23:40.569 --> 00:23:45.119 targeting that's available. I think MTM's working with Nielsen and art nineteens got a 313 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.000 collection of data suppliers. So if you're interested in sort of reaching very, 314 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:53.880 very targeted groups of people who are, you know, in a specific job 315 00:23:55.039 --> 00:24:02.109 function or interested in a certain sports team or likely to buy a car in 316 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:04.829 the next twelve months, you know, things like that, if that's who 317 00:24:04.829 --> 00:24:08.390 you want to reach. You know, if you've got a medium size budget, 318 00:24:08.950 --> 00:24:14.900 then some of the programmatic tools start to become available to and I think 319 00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:18.420 those are those are very, very interesting. Again, it depends a lot 320 00:24:18.579 --> 00:24:22.619 on the targeting and what you're trying to offer, because so much of sort 321 00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:30.250 of the paid podcast add world for so long was built on direct response advertising 322 00:24:30.490 --> 00:24:36.970 for products and services, meal kits in boxes and razor blades, subscriptions and 323 00:24:37.970 --> 00:24:40.480 you know, all that sort of stuff, all the you know, the 324 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.200 the make your own website websites, you know, stuff like that, right 325 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:51.400 and translating the tools and the platforms that are really designed for direct response advertising 326 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:56.109 for products and services into tune in style campaigns where the goal is not necessarily 327 00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:59.910 to get somebody to go use a coupon code or hit a vanity url in 328 00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:03.750 order to buy a product, but when the objective is, Hey, we've 329 00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:06.109 got a great show that we think you're going to like and we want you 330 00:25:06.150 --> 00:25:10.819 to we want you to come check it out because we think you'd like it. 331 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:15.420 I think you've really got to have a different mindset than you know, 332 00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:21.259 sort of typical ad buying which has maybe more performance, performance based. Yeah, 333 00:25:21.259 --> 00:25:22.849 I mean, ultimately you're trying to get them to subscribe, you try 334 00:25:22.930 --> 00:25:26.890 to get them to take an action, but it's hard to measure sometimes. 335 00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:29.769 Right with podcasting. You don't know who subscribed, you don't know how to 336 00:25:29.809 --> 00:25:33.089 change the the retargeting adds if you're running kind of those kinds of ads, 337 00:25:33.170 --> 00:25:37.039 to stop or start based on what they've hit or not. It's a little 338 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.160 it's a little bit more of a black box there. Yeah, although some 339 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:44.880 of the tools are starting to come online to more effectively measure Roy on paid 340 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.839 spend. You know tools like chartaboles smart promos, which do audio to audio 341 00:25:49.230 --> 00:25:55.029 download attribution. I know pod sites has similar products that do that type of 342 00:25:55.069 --> 00:25:59.029 attribution. It's getting better, but I don't think it's nearly as sophisticated to 343 00:25:59.150 --> 00:26:03.750 some people might like it to be. So does that change when you start 344 00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:07.900 to get into a midsize company? Does the owned or earned portion of promotion 345 00:26:07.180 --> 00:26:11.700 start to change in your mind for those companies? or It's essentially it's pretty 346 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.299 similar, like you're taken advantage of your own own channels, your email list, 347 00:26:15.339 --> 00:26:19.289 your social feed, your friends out there order do to anything? Does 348 00:26:19.329 --> 00:26:26.329 anything shift for you? I think those things sort of scale along the spectrum 349 00:26:26.450 --> 00:26:30.809 of different sized businesses. But I think one of the things that happens when 350 00:26:30.809 --> 00:26:33.319 you get into sort of a medium or especially a large size business, you 351 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:37.640 know, like a big brand, right, a big household name style brand. 352 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:45.079 What changes there is the value of your own channels when it comes to 353 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:52.069 Lever Jing earned opportunities. So, for instance, you know there are lots 354 00:26:52.109 --> 00:26:56.230 of podcast apps out there, right, there's apple and there's spotify and there's 355 00:26:56.230 --> 00:27:00.750 a pocketcasts and there's radio public. There's a Zillion podcast apps out there and 356 00:27:00.950 --> 00:27:06.019 many of those podcast APPs have editorial front pages, right. So probably the 357 00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:10.180 most famous example of that is the front page of apple podcasts. Right. 358 00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:12.339 How do you get into that flowcase spot how do you get into the new 359 00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:15.650 and noteworthy section? How do you run yourself up the charts and down the 360 00:27:15.690 --> 00:27:19.930 charts and all that sort of stuff? And with a lot of these editorial 361 00:27:21.009 --> 00:27:26.569 front pages, there's a very limited amount of space on those pages and their 362 00:27:26.690 --> 00:27:32.319 programmed by human beings and their programmed by human beings who are interested in highlighting 363 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:40.640 high quality content and they're interested in highlighting shows from podcasters and podcast publishers who 364 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.430 are invested in making their show a success on whatever the platform is. So 365 00:27:45.750 --> 00:27:52.710 when you've got large owned channels, you can start to use those to incentivize 366 00:27:52.109 --> 00:27:57.740 or make yourself more appealing to the podcast APPS for editorial placement. Right, 367 00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:03.339 I can give you an example. So we work with Mozilla. There the 368 00:28:03.740 --> 00:28:08.339 nonprofit that makes the Firefox Web Browser, and Firefox is, you know, 369 00:28:08.579 --> 00:28:11.940 I can't remember exactly what the market share is, but it's, you know, 370 00:28:11.019 --> 00:28:15.930 it's more than more more than a couple percentage points, sort of a 371 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:19.569 global market share in terms of browsers. Mozilla owns firefox and on the front 372 00:28:19.609 --> 00:28:25.329 page of the Firefox web browser that's entirely controlled by Mozilla. So when they 373 00:28:25.369 --> 00:28:30.720 came out with their podcast irl they were able to put podcast advertising for their 374 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:36.799 brand new show on the front page of everybody who had firefox installed. Right, 375 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:38.359 you open up a new tab and there's a search box and then below 376 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:41.589 that there's a little snippet that shows, Hey, we've got a new show, 377 00:28:41.630 --> 00:28:45.910 we think you're going to like it. That's an amazing owned channel and 378 00:28:45.990 --> 00:28:49.109 you could replace that with, you know, any other kind of in product 379 00:28:49.589 --> 00:28:53.829 messaging or a big email list or big social following or a celebrity who's hosting 380 00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:57.140 your show. Like what your big owned champ? You know, insert big 381 00:28:57.220 --> 00:29:02.140 owned channel here. Right. You can take that and you can go to 382 00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:03.740 the platforms and you can say like Hey, look, we got a new 383 00:29:03.819 --> 00:29:07.940 show coming out, we're really excited about it, we think it's good. 384 00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:11.730 It's not an infommercial, it's not a broach shore, it's a genuinely good 385 00:29:11.809 --> 00:29:15.170 show. Here's who were trying to reach and here are all the things that 386 00:29:15.329 --> 00:29:19.930 we're doing as a company. Here are all the things that we're doing to 387 00:29:21.170 --> 00:29:27.240 make our show a success on your platform. And that is when incentives begin 388 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:32.960 to a line. Right. This is when, if you can demonstrate to 389 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.269 a platform, a podcast listening platform, that you are really excited about making 390 00:29:38.430 --> 00:29:44.190 your show a success on their platform and you're going to drive traffic to your 391 00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:47.470 show on their platform. And here's how you're going to do it. Through 392 00:29:47.549 --> 00:29:52.069 big owned channels, through paid campaigns and through you know, if you've if 393 00:29:52.069 --> 00:29:56.660 you're a fiftyzero person company, that's a significant number of people that you could 394 00:29:56.660 --> 00:29:59.980 drive a lot of traffic to your show on their platform. And so, 395 00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:03.779 just as or come back to this idea of people look at the front page 396 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:04.859 of Apple, people look at the front page of, you know, insert 397 00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:08.289 podcast APP x here. People look at those and they say, how do 398 00:30:08.329 --> 00:30:11.089 I get on those? And I think the answer to that, and I'm 399 00:30:11.089 --> 00:30:15.529 not speaking about any particular platform here, I'm saying the answer to that is, 400 00:30:15.650 --> 00:30:18.890 if you want editorial front page placement, number one, make a good 401 00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:22.799 show and, number two, demonstrate that you're going to market it in a 402 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.680 smart way and demonstrate to the platforms that you are incentivized to send traffic their 403 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.640 way. I think sends if you'd position those things. Yeah, if you 404 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:36.829 do those things, I think your odds of getting sort of editorial placement go 405 00:30:37.069 --> 00:30:41.430 up right because what are the human beings who curate the front pages of PODCAST 406 00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:45.869 APPS want? They want they want to highlight good content that is worth their 407 00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:51.819 audiences time and they want to work with people who are interested in making their 408 00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:55.299 show a success on their platform. I just think is about, you know, 409 00:30:55.339 --> 00:30:56.539 at the end of the day, having a little bit of empathy for 410 00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:03.420 the people who who work on these APPs and understanding their tastes and understanding, 411 00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:06.809 you know, what their incentives are. Man, I mean that makes so 412 00:31:06.849 --> 00:31:10.450 much sense if you got the leverage, then then it works, then it 413 00:31:10.809 --> 00:31:12.450 helps, but you certainly have to be smart about it. You certainly have 414 00:31:12.529 --> 00:31:18.490 to position it directly and make sure you're helping them when as well. There 415 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.680 was one thing you mentioned that I'd love to dive back into, since we've 416 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:26.680 covered kind of like growth strategies for small, medium and large businesses, is 417 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.839 around repurposing content, just like even be to be growth. We have over 418 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:36.910 one five hundred episodes like it's we have a catalog of content now and we 419 00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:38.910 were getting to explore how to take some of the best of it and bring 420 00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:41.630 it back out into the light. But what are some of the things you 421 00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:45.630 guys have been exploring as far as bringing that content back out and getting more 422 00:31:47.539 --> 00:31:52.059 promoting it again, bringing it back into yeah, maybe nurture sequences or in 423 00:31:52.220 --> 00:31:56.980 different ways. Yeah, so we've done this is something that I find super 424 00:31:56.220 --> 00:32:00.420 interesting and not, I think, not nearly enough people are thinking about this, 425 00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:05.170 because if you're investing in the first place in making high quality content, 426 00:32:05.970 --> 00:32:08.089 it's important to not forget about it. Right. I think as podcasters we 427 00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:13.490 often have this tendency to want to focus on the latest thing, the shiniest 428 00:32:13.529 --> 00:32:15.279 thing. What is the newest episode that we put out. We sort of 429 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:21.519 ignore the body of work that came before it. And there's a lot of 430 00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.759 value in in your back catalog, or there can be a lot of value 431 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:28.680 in your back catalog, and so you know, this question comes up a 432 00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:30.950 lot when we're looking at when we're looking at back catalogs and trying to figure 433 00:32:30.950 --> 00:32:36.269 out, okay, which of our episodes are worth resurfacing, which of our 434 00:32:36.309 --> 00:32:38.829 episodes, if we were going to put some paid dollars behind episodic promotion, 435 00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:42.950 which ones would we choose? And we've sort of put together a framework for 436 00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:46.740 thinking about out what in our back catalog has the best chances of sort of 437 00:32:46.779 --> 00:32:52.059 continue to add value, and its essentially a set of filters that we think 438 00:32:52.059 --> 00:32:53.859 about. So if you think about, you know, every single episode in 439 00:32:53.900 --> 00:32:58.539 your back catalog, and for some people that may be more more easy to 440 00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:00.730 hold in your head at once, depending on the depth of the back catalog, 441 00:33:00.730 --> 00:33:05.009 but if you think about all those back catalog episodes and you just sort 442 00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:07.609 of make a list in your head of like, what are the ones that 443 00:33:07.690 --> 00:33:14.079 are the best introduction to my show for a new listener? Right if I 444 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:19.440 met somebody at a party or sat next to them on a train and I 445 00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:23.640 had to recommend some episodes to start with. What would I tell them right? 446 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:28.069 What are the five to ten to fifteen episodes that I would say, 447 00:33:28.069 --> 00:33:31.230 okay, here's that, here's my start here playlist. I think starting with 448 00:33:31.430 --> 00:33:36.109 that is is a great place, because you, as the podcaster, probably 449 00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:38.950 have the closest relationship with the material right and you know which one sort of 450 00:33:38.950 --> 00:33:43.740 hit and which one's resonated with you, and not just which ones performed the 451 00:33:43.779 --> 00:33:46.660 best, but which ones were the most representative of what the show is. 452 00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:50.980 You know, and I think the way to get a you know, that 453 00:33:51.099 --> 00:33:54.180 list of questions is really like asking yourself, Hey, if I needed to 454 00:33:54.220 --> 00:33:58.410 tell somebody, here are the two, three, four five episodes to begin 455 00:33:58.490 --> 00:34:00.650 with. These are the ones that are on the list. So I think 456 00:34:00.690 --> 00:34:04.569 you start with that list and then you can go through and sort of filter 457 00:34:04.690 --> 00:34:07.569 things out so you can then ask, okay, does this hold up? 458 00:34:07.769 --> 00:34:10.599 Is it still relevant? Is it too timely? Is it too hooked to 459 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.840 the news of the day? Is it too hooked to a particular season of 460 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:17.440 the year, those kinds of things, and you sort of throw those away 461 00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:22.880 and then the sort of next filter I would use is looking at past performance. 462 00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:25.989 And so you know what's great is that as podcasters, we now have 463 00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:32.710 data from apple podcasts, from spotify, now from Google podcasts, from stitcher, 464 00:34:34.269 --> 00:34:37.550 sometimes from our hosting platforms. We can see the audience or tention, 465 00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:39.900 the average time spent listening. Right. Are there people dropping off? You 466 00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:43.780 know, and I think one of the great ways that you can use that 467 00:34:43.900 --> 00:34:51.179 data is to help you choose which episodes you should continue to promote. Right. 468 00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:53.409 So, if you're if you're going to introduce your show to New People, 469 00:34:53.650 --> 00:34:58.010 if you're going to try and Hook New People on your on your show, 470 00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:00.809 put your best foot forward. And how do you know what your best 471 00:35:00.849 --> 00:35:04.889 foot is? Will look at your past performance. Right. So, if 472 00:35:04.929 --> 00:35:08.480 I've got a list of episodes that I know for a fact stood out to 473 00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:15.400 me were some of my most memorable, favorable episodes that are still relevant, 474 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:19.519 that aren't too dated and Heaven Gone Stale, and I know that each and 475 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.469 every one of them had one thousand nine hundred and ninety five percent average completion, 476 00:35:22.909 --> 00:35:27.309 those are probably good episodes to put in front of somebody. Right. 477 00:35:27.349 --> 00:35:30.309 Absolutely so. If you're dealing with hundreds or hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of 478 00:35:30.309 --> 00:35:34.630 episodes at a back catalog. This is where using some of that data that's 479 00:35:34.630 --> 00:35:38.059 available to us now as podcasters to sort of whittle that list down can be 480 00:35:38.179 --> 00:35:43.099 really, really useful. So we've gone through this process with with clients in 481 00:35:43.139 --> 00:35:45.179 the past who have said, okay, we've got some budget and we want 482 00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:49.860 to promote a back catalog episode or a series of back catalog episodes. Which 483 00:35:49.900 --> 00:35:53.530 one should we prioritize? We've also used this to identify sort of best of 484 00:35:53.650 --> 00:36:00.690 hits, right to include in email campaigns. Right. You mentioned nurture campaigns. 485 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:06.880 We've found that when you have high quality audio, that you can actually 486 00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:13.119 offer that up to people and re awaken certain email lists. So we were 487 00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:17.559 working with a client who had effectively a completely dormant list. It was sort 488 00:36:17.590 --> 00:36:22.070 of almost written off. Just nobody was opening the emails, nobody was clicking 489 00:36:22.150 --> 00:36:25.510 throughs like incredibly low engagement. It was it was like a ghost town this 490 00:36:25.750 --> 00:36:31.309 this email list. And we said, well, you've got a really good 491 00:36:31.860 --> 00:36:37.699 podcast and we know, based on the data that we have from podcast platforms, 492 00:36:37.739 --> 00:36:40.739 that when people hit play they tend to make it all or most of 493 00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:45.659 the way through. Have you consider putting that in front of them and you 494 00:36:45.739 --> 00:36:47.730 know, the worst case scenario is your dead list is going to stay dead 495 00:36:49.130 --> 00:36:52.809 right. And what we've been able to find is that when marketing audio, 496 00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:58.570 in this case back catalog audio, either directly as audio or as transcripts or 497 00:36:58.650 --> 00:37:02.280 is blog post based on the the audio, that this one particular of client 498 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:07.960 was able to essentially reawaken this this dormant email list and get engagement where there 499 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.599 had been done in the past. So I think audio can be really, 500 00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:15.949 really powerful on that front. That's fantastic. So we're you getting him back 501 00:37:15.989 --> 00:37:20.389 out your you're taking the time to find your your best of list, your 502 00:37:20.429 --> 00:37:24.590 most popular episode list and maybe the ones that are the best to introduce the 503 00:37:24.670 --> 00:37:28.349 podcast. You almost got like three separate lists there and you bring them back 504 00:37:28.389 --> 00:37:34.300 out with paid promotion in sticking them email campaign specifically to reactivate kind of Norman 505 00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:37.300 or dead lists. Do you take those lists and put them anywhere else, 506 00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:43.059 maybe to cure a blog post of your best of or place them in different 507 00:37:43.059 --> 00:37:45.969 parts of your own media? Yeah, I think there are lots of things 508 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:51.610 that you can do with them and one really interesting development that I've been tracking 509 00:37:51.650 --> 00:37:53.889 over the past couple of months is sort of the rise of podcast playlisting. 510 00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:58.760 So it was a couple months ago that spotify introduced the ability for anybody to 511 00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:02.119 create a playlist of podcast episodes in much the same way that you could create 512 00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:07.199 a playlist of songs, and I've seen a number of shows do exactly that, 513 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.320 put together their best of lists or the start here list, or here's, 514 00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:16.150 you know, the host's personal favorites list, and it's been interesting to 515 00:38:16.190 --> 00:38:22.269 see how certain shows have used playlisting specifically. And you know, there's a 516 00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:27.300 whole lot of prior art here in the music world of playlist marketing and I 517 00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:31.219 think there are going to be a lot of folks borrowing strategies and tactics from 518 00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:36.300 from that world of sort of music based playlist marketing and applying some of that 519 00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:40.099 thinking to to podcast playlists. That's fantastic. I've it makes much sense. 520 00:38:40.099 --> 00:38:45.610 I've actually never, never considered beyond like a start here, like best of 521 00:38:45.809 --> 00:38:49.369 list, that we can then go in and create all kinds of playlists that 522 00:38:49.610 --> 00:38:52.090 people can go through, especially when you have hundreds and hundreds of episodes, 523 00:38:52.130 --> 00:38:55.639 it starts to become really Andy. Yeah, there's a there's a way to 524 00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:59.119 do that and you can you, I think. I think there's nothing wrong 525 00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:02.079 with putting together a here are favorite episodes of our own show. Start here. 526 00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:07.079 playlists. I think there's nothing wrong with that. But in a lot 527 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.630 of ways for brands where there's sort of you're starting from a position where you're 528 00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:15.309 trying to fight this idea that you're only talking about yourselves or you only your 529 00:39:15.469 --> 00:39:20.030 show exists to market your products. I think there are ways that you could 530 00:39:20.030 --> 00:39:25.699 use playlists to really authentically engage with the rest of the podcast ecosystem. What 531 00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:28.820 is it play? So if you're a company, if you're a brand, 532 00:39:29.539 --> 00:39:32.420 what does it look like if you put out a playlist of your own show 533 00:39:32.500 --> 00:39:37.019 featuring only your own episodes? That's a look, and I might say it's 534 00:39:37.019 --> 00:39:37.849 a good look or a bad look. I'm just saying it's a look. 535 00:39:38.809 --> 00:39:43.530 You could also say, okay, we're a cyber security company, here's a 536 00:39:43.610 --> 00:39:46.929 playlist of episodes from a bunch of different shows that we think are the best 537 00:39:46.969 --> 00:39:53.480 episodes related to cybersecurity. One of that's a very different look, right and 538 00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:57.599 you can look at sort of the playlisting activity that's happening in places like, 539 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.920 you know, pod chaser or you can look at the spot the spotify playlists, 540 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:06.079 the user generated spotify playlists, and if you're a brand you can make 541 00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:10.630 it all about yourself, but you can also choose to make it mostly about 542 00:40:10.630 --> 00:40:15.190 other people and the interests of your audience, and maybe you've got a place 543 00:40:15.190 --> 00:40:20.349 at the table there. So I think within playlist strategy there's a lot to 544 00:40:20.389 --> 00:40:23.500 talk about. Man Genius. I love it. I'm like, Dang, 545 00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:27.579 I need to get on the spotify and start making some playlist and I probably 546 00:40:27.619 --> 00:40:31.219 will soon. Is you any other tips or things you wish audiences would know 547 00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:36.369 or could know or should know before we wrap up this episode today? Dan, 548 00:40:37.130 --> 00:40:43.809 I think that across the board, when we look at the intersection of 549 00:40:44.010 --> 00:40:51.199 audio, specifically podcasting, and brand strategy, there's a lot of work to 550 00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:55.559 be done and there are a lot of opportunities to really be bold and creative. 551 00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:00.519 And I think it's so easy to make a safe show, I really 552 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.630 do. I think it's really easy to make a safe, dull, boring, 553 00:41:05.949 --> 00:41:12.110 mediocre show and there is inertia within a lot of companies to head that 554 00:41:12.230 --> 00:41:17.190 way. Right and the thing that I get excited about every single day is 555 00:41:17.349 --> 00:41:23.659 the idea of brands not just making shows that are safe and not seeing as 556 00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:30.179 a potential liability within the company, but making shows that are genuinely bold and 557 00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:37.409 interesting and breaking ground that has not been broken before in the podcast ecosystem. 558 00:41:37.449 --> 00:41:39.610 I love the idea when we talk about career of bravery, we're talking about 559 00:41:40.449 --> 00:41:46.010 having the guts to make an audience first show and having the guts to experiment. 560 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:50.480 And so, you know, I love an interview show as much as 561 00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.199 anybody else and I listen to a lot of interview shows. But I think 562 00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:57.800 there's a huge amount of opportunity, not just for brands but for everybody, 563 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:01.829 to really like push at the edges of this medium and figure out how do 564 00:42:01.949 --> 00:42:08.630 we make shows that sound genuinely different, that are differentiated from, you know, 565 00:42:08.949 --> 00:42:13.909 the public and private radio traditions that this industry has been built on. 566 00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:16.380 That really like, how do you make something that is really fresh and really 567 00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:21.820 new, and I am excited for sort of the edges of the medium to 568 00:42:21.860 --> 00:42:24.219 be expanded and for brands to play a role in that. So, I 569 00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:28.619 mean there's an easy way to make a podcast if you're a brand, and 570 00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:30.889 the easy way is not necessarily the right way. And I just want to 571 00:42:30.929 --> 00:42:35.690 I'm excited to see people sort of pushing it forward. I agree. I 572 00:42:35.809 --> 00:42:38.969 can't wait to see what happens with podcasting. I mean I feel like it's 573 00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:42.769 been around for a while, but I feel like we're still early on in 574 00:42:42.889 --> 00:42:46.000 this medium and we still have a lot to explore, a lot to cover 575 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:51.000 as far as what can be done with audio and it's it's been growing over 576 00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:54.159 the last five years tremendously. So I think we're only still in the beginning 577 00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:58.789 of phases of this thing and I can't wait to see what happens. Dan 578 00:42:59.429 --> 00:43:02.949 As people want to learn more about what you do and the work at Pacific 579 00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:07.789 content, where can they go to learn more and connect with you? Our 580 00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:16.179 website is specific content dot calm and we have a weekly newsletter that is, 581 00:43:16.579 --> 00:43:20.739 I think, up the alley of anybody who listens to this show if you 582 00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:25.260 are a marketing minded audio person or an audiominded marketing person, if you're if 583 00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:30.769 you're anywhere along that spectrum. We put out a weekly email newsletter that feature 584 00:43:30.889 --> 00:43:35.650 some of our own original writing analysis that we've done of the industry, some 585 00:43:35.809 --> 00:43:39.090 tips and tricks and strategy thinking there and also sort of roundups of links. 586 00:43:39.809 --> 00:43:43.760 So if you want to, if you're if you are like me and like 587 00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:49.800 deeply obsessed with audio but also deeply obsessed with brand marketing and you like those 588 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:52.079 two things together, we've got an email news letter that's probably up your alley. 589 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:58.030 It's fantastic. I will certainly be subscribing myself in just a few short 590 00:43:58.070 --> 00:44:00.989 minutes. Thank you so much for joining us on be to be growth. 591 00:44:00.349 --> 00:44:07.429 Thanks for having me down. I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners 592 00:44:07.510 --> 00:44:12.139 for reviews, but I get why they do it, because reviews are enormously 593 00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:15.659 helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So here's what we decided 594 00:44:15.699 --> 00:44:17.420 to do. If you leave a review for me to be growth in apple 595 00:44:17.500 --> 00:44:22.460 podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, 596 00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:27.090 I'll send you a signed copy of my new book, content based networking, 597 00:44:27.369 --> 00:44:30.409 how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. We get a 598 00:44:30.449 --> 00:44:31.929 review, you get a free book. We both win.