Transcript
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Hey everyone, logan with sweet fish
here. As you may already know,
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we've had the HASHTAG agency series running
for a while now here on bb growth.
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Over the next several weeks you'll be
able to listen in to select episodes
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of the Innovative Agency, hosted by
Sharon Tork as she leads conversations with agency
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leaders about how their teams are staying
on the cutting edge of marketing trends,
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how they're adapting their businesses to meet
new challenges and a whole lot more.
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All right, let's get into the
episode. Welcome everybody back to another episode
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of the Innovative Agency. Share and
tork here again with you today, and
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I'm excited about something that probably most
of you are going to grown about when
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I say it, and that's conversation
about our OI. That's right, Oroi.
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Return on investment, probably three letters
put together that most agency owners I
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talk with despise or get super excited
about, depending upon your philosophy, and
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I'm really looking forward to sort of
peeling back this onion of the whole issue
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of return on investment and how you
have that conversation around it with your clients,
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your prospects, your teams, all
of that and to do that I'm
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really happy to introduce my guest today, who is my crass and Mike is
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a CO founder of mkg Te Marketing
Down in New Orleans, Louisiana and I
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think one other city, I believe. Welcome Mike to the PODCAST. Thanks
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for having me, Sharon, and
we are actually in seven different states,
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so we're kind of all over the
place. Wow, it got it.
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Yeah, I love New Orleans.
It's and and I'm I'm a clevelander by
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birth and so it's very different.
But actually spend some time out there last
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year in the summertime, which is
probably not the best time to go for
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somebody who doesn't like heat and humidity, but I love the city. Great
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people, Great Food, for sure. So let's talk about first of all,
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tell us a little bit about Mkg
and sort of your your founding story
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of the agency and and what you
did leading up to being an agency owner.
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Sure, so what I did before
we found it, Mkg, was
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I worked at at agencies on the
West Coast the United States, specifically in
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Los Angeles and Seattle, and I
was in a number of different roles.
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They were focused on really, you
know, analytics, the ones and Zeros,
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a lot of the technical instrumentation,
as well as paid media planning and
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strategy. So that's what took me
from Seattle, where I grew up,
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down to Los Angeles and back to
Seattle. Met My business partner carry she
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was actually hired to be my boss
and the agency in Seattle, and really
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we just hit it off. We
were both very analytical. We like ones
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and Zeros between and spreadsheets. I
can hear a couple creative studio heads just
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growning right now like, Oh God, you're one of them, as so
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unmutual in this industry. So that
that is very interesting. Yeah, and
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and I am proud to say I
am one of them. So you know,
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our our founding story was it came
out of a client project at that
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agency at Seattle and we we had
this huge global campaign. All their different
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regions pitched money in and you know, they had big expectations and it was
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seven figure media campaign over the holidays
for consumer brand. And we got to
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the end of this campaign and if
I have to recall, I think I
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was twenty three years old at this
point. HM, and so we've got
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people dialed in from all over the
world and they all dial in and I
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can, I'm comfortable saying this with, you know, my German heritage.
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The gentleman who is calling in that
the country head from Germany, listening to
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our wholes field. We were so
proud. We're showing all these you know,
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ones and Zeros and numbers, but
the number we didn't show was sales
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because it actually wasn't possible for them
to track because we were driving everything to,
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you know, the best fives or
other target type people of the world
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on their different partners. And so
he listens very politely and then at the
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end he looked at all of us
and he said, what did we actually
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get? Why did I give you
so much money? And I'm not feeling
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like I got think sure people saw
ads, sure people clicked on them and
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went to our website. What I'm
hearing you say is you have no idea.
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How much product useful do you?
And that was a pretty uncomfortable conversation
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for a twenty three year old who
doesn't speak German. Is it used to
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working with Germans? He basically opened
the flood gates. So then you know,
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the Chinese country had jumped in and
was like yeah, I'm kind of
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thinking the same thing. But what
did I you know? It is.
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Yeah, this is a conversation.
Every agency owner fierce, and don't care
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if they admitted or not, every
agency owner fares is question to some degree.
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So go ahead to talk about what
happened next. Well, we didn't
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have an answer, which didn't make
them any happier. Right, right,
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right. And so subsequently, carry
my business partner, her and and I
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looked at each other. We did
a little bit of an internal postmortem of
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how the heck did that happen and
we realized we never wanted that to happen
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again. So that's really where this
idea of starting mkge sprouted. Than our
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brains. We thought, man,
how could we control that? Never have
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any yet, and I and we
literally said never, which is in hinds.
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It's not possible to never have that
conversation. But we said, you
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know, if we were in control
this department, we might, we might
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be able to steer our plans in
certain directions that make it very difficult for
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that to happen again. And so
we had a we had approach the department
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head and they listened very politely and
then they very politely reminded us that,
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Hey, this is a creative first
agency. It's a creative studio. That's
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what everyone knows this as we happen
to do a lot of those ones and
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Zeros, because it's more a mechanism
to deliver creative hmm right, I love
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your initiative. You clearly thought through
this plan. It's just not going to
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happen here. And they didn't say
the words know, they just said,
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you know, thanks for playing and
it's not going to happen. So we
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started the agency and we said our
first tagline, which again making the creative
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types listening grown. We have no
experience with like building taglines and building brands.
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So the back that we had our
own tagline was pre special. Right,
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it's good, good, it sounds. Yeah, I think the Tagline
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was measurable me and so we wanted
to make sure that we never had that
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really hard discussion again, and so
that's where I, Mkg, originally came
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for Um and today, like I
mentioned, we've got team members. We're
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still small agency. We have team
members in seven different states and we work
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primarily with technology and healthcare brands and
the tagline or our niche that we talk
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about today is we help them grow
big. We're not in the business of
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helping them grow a couple of points
a year. Unless they're multi billion dollar
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business, than a few percentage points
is a big deal, Sarah. For
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sure, we are working with businesses
that are trying to grow by two thousand,
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five hundred and fifty, a hundred
percent, two X, three X.
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we've heard numbers as high as or
x from some of our clients.
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Not that we're responsible for all that
growth, but they just want us to
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be aware of Ay. You Happen
to do digital marketing for, you know,
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technology brands like us or healthcare brands
like us, but we are going
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to grow big and you need to
be a part of that. You need
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to kind of strap your seat belt
in and help us in the process.
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So that's what we do, or
we're not a full service agency. We
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focus on digital advertising, Seo and
analytics for technology and healthcare brands and the
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type of brands that are hiring us
are looking to grow pretty explosively and they
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want us to be on board and
helping them in the process. To you,
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I love this as as the lead
or sort of the defining purpose of
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your experience founding your current agency,
because it's very clear to express, it's
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measurable and it doesn't lend itself to
a lot of wiggle room, which is
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a brief thing to do right,
because the data says what it says.
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Now you can choose which what to
measure right, but you've got to decide
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in advance, I assuming, with
your clients consent and input, about what
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those metrics are going to be so
that you know what you're going to be
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measured against once you start working with
them. So I love this specificness of
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it and I love the the bravery
of leading with we're all about US chaling
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up the scores and seeing how we
did, because I think that's a harder
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conversation for an agency that is either
creatively focused or brand building focused, some
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of those types of things that are
hard to put Zeros and ones behind.
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Measuring right. Yeah, absolutely.
It's something that I'm starting to see more
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with agencies. I kind of see
the same types of language from agencies,
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which, when you're trying to stand
out, it's not great to see similar
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language. Yeah, no, I
agree, but ultimately it was a planting
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our flag and saying, for example, on the technology side, on average
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clients invested dollar in our services and
we generate ten dollars and sales pipeline back
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to them. So it's not sales, but it's leads that turn into proposals
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that are sent by a salesperson,
and so that's something that is really attractive
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to the types of clients that we
work with and it's also a bit of
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a barrier to entry, for lack
of a better term, for clients who
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aren't interested in that. If you
are not interested and measuring all the way
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down to the sales pipeline and then
actual sales, you're not really a great
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client for us because that's the language
that we're going it. So if you're
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uncomfortable with that for whatever reason,
and that not judge of just saying if
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you're uncomfortable, that's not interesting or
attractive to you, we can we can
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part ways as friends and be colleagues
in the industry, but we really don't
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need to work together. Right.
Did you make a conscious decision as an
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agency to focus on the client verticals
that you did because you felt they were
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more likely to be data or Roi
focused when they were looking for a partner?
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We did, and starting on the
technology side, I'm doing are quotes
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because technology can really be are okay, you know? Yeah, our technology
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practice is everything from working with clients
that are selling routers, Wi fi systems,
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home automation, networking data or into
coming big data companies. For them
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we focused on them first, acting
before healthcare, because they all want to
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know one's in Zeros. Well,
while they're interested in brand building. Do
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you are a be to be technology
company, at some point a couple of
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things have to happen for you to
grow. Have to number one, having
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extremely, extremely competent sales leader,
whatever his or her title as doesn't matter.
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You've got to be focused on a
sales leader that can hire an able
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management and then bring in that lower
level of sales folks, which are like
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strs or atrs, the whole bunch
of different actronomes to that. So that's
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usually, to be frank, a
technology company, as their scaling will hire
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salespeople faster than marketing and the'll hire
more of them. And a great example
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is like zoom, video conferencing.
They IPOS last year. They had tremendously
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successful initial public offering and they're still
going strong. Where a zoom customer,
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we were in their office and September
of last year just chatting with them and
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I believe their marketing department today right, they're a publicly traded company. Their
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Marketing Department is I don't remember the
exact number, but it's definitely less than
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fifty and I probably put it out
around twenty five. Well, and in
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September, the day before we walked
in their office, they had just hired
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their one thousand salesperson. And just
to show you orders of magnitude, they
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literally have two percent the number of
marketing people as sales. So kind of
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coming back to their questions why we
focus on a vertical we want to talk
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about it. So that means if
you are a marketing person at a company
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that sells technology to other businesses,
you have to talk in sales. It's
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not it's not allowed to not.
So we really just gelled with those kind
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of people and the more we talked
to them and we really like your methodology
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and you're talking about we're not seeing
this from a lot of people. And
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they also understand that there's most technology
brands, unless it's a, you know,
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subscription business like a SASS company,
there's usually huge pudical at the end
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of each sales rainbow. So it's
not like they're going to go through a
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nine month or twelve month or even
a fifteen month sales cycle and sell something
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for four thousand dollars. They're going
to sell for four hundredzero dollars or four
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million dollars and then talk about healthcare. We were really attracted to healthcare businesses
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because you might not get a four
million dollars sale and meat like, although
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one of our clients it's in life
science of business that raves these treatments,
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actually does seventh figure treatment that they
spell that they provide with healthcare. It's
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more the lifetime value of that patient. You know, if you say you're
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a hospital and you're taking care of
taking care of my wife Jin, that's
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that's her name. Who Do you
think that Mike is going to go to
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when he needs to be taken care
of, whether it's, you know,
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just basic medical needs, a check
up, the physical whatever, all the
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way up to, you know,
serious emergency medicine or terminal illness. So
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with with healthcare brands it's a little
harder to track because they don't have the
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same marketing technology stack like a tech
company would. Right, which tech companies
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generally go? You've got your marketing
metrics, so like whatever you see out
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of facebook ads and you've got working
on an Asian platform such as Marquetto our
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dot whatever, and then you shove
all that data into sales crm like sales
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force or upstart. Unfortunately health care
doesn't have that same stack set up,
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but they are starting to have some
more end end tracking with the different bits
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of their their marketing and technology stack. So for us it's really rewarding to
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be able to say against that life
sciences business, a single getting, a
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single new patient pays for our service
many times over in a year. We're
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usually not that fortunate. It's usually
like, okay, we bring mic in
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and he's going to see the doctor
for a few years and Mike's wife Jen
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starts coming in and then Sharon ask
where you know? Where do you guys
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go to the doctor, and also
starts going. So we're looking to be
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able to tell a story powered by
these different bits of technology that says,
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okay, you're going to spend x
on it. Kg. Our goal is
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to make why bigger than X and
that why should continue to grow over time.
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So that's why we really attracted to
those two industries. You know,
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long sales cycles really valuable customers or
patients' healthcare side and a clear need.
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Also, I'm not not to marginalize
the Banana Republic shirt that I'm wearing right
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now, but I didn't need a
ban and republicsher good a bottle shirt or
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pretty much anywhere at work work right
well, and I also think that there
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are industries that lend themselves to a
lot of of Innerim benchmarking, which a
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data focused agency is as well equipped
to do right, because you are you're
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constantly measuring and it's baked into the
way you deliver, the value that you
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deliver, and so you're selling,
helping your clients create bigger ticket relationships or
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bigger ticket sales to you know,
but pick your phraseology, depending on the
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industry, but you are helping them
measure along the way whether they're headed in
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the right direction and on the right
path. Yeah, along the way and
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it and when it comes to our
services and fees, it ends up being
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a fairly binary conversation. When I'm
calling you or Andre, who's a our
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sales leader here and Mkgi, when
myself are under a calling a client about
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a renewal. We should have a
really good idea around how likely we are
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to renew. Are we going to
get more work from them? Are they
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going to reduce the work? They
just going to terminate the relationship at the
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end of the current contract? You
know, we it's a pretty binary conversation
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and that I've seen in other agencies
can be uncomfortable. You I see other
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agencies and painting with a frowd rush
here. Yeah, other agencies. Sometimes
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they want to talk more in feel
right. How does this feel? How
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this relationship feel? How is the
work right? That's again are quotes.
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That's like a man the work.
How is the work right? How do
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you feel the work is going?
How do you feel the working process is
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going? And ultimately, what I
always said in the early days of our
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company is I cannot hate people to
work here based on feelings. Yes,
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eventually they're going to leave because they're
not able to turn around to JP Morgan
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Chase or whoever holds their mortgage and
say I'm going to give you ten feelings
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instead of my mortgage. Famous.
Yeah, no, you don't under see.
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And they really liked our work.
It really feels good to the client.
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They just didn't pay for it.
Yeah, well, whether speck work
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or whether the relationship just ended and
and I think for us, if it
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is truly confusing if we are delivery
and the metrics we agreed to as a
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group, not just what we told
you, but you you waited on you
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agreed as a client. We got
consensus. I was communicated at the chain
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of command to leadership. It's truly
confusing if we're doing really well for somebody
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and we don't get because that basically
means that all that is lips. Are
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Us and we didn't have yeah,
see, yes, well, I'm glad
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you brought that up, because one
of the most vexing things for agencies,
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well, the new business question in
general. I mean pipe keeping, pipelines
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fall closing deals, making the right
matches with the right clients. It's how
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every agency owner who I personally know
or who I personally work with spends a
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lot of their their day, their
their months or years consumed with. But
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if you can use the data that
you are and and the benchmarks that you
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are gathering along the way, it
takes so much guess work out of the
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equation when it comes time to talk
about whether you're going to maintain or move
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on from maintain the relationship or move
on from each other as a client and
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an agency. Right, and agencies
spends so much of their time just trying
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to keep the business they already have
in some cases. And your approach seems
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to me to eliminate so much of
that variableness because, like you said,
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you should be able to predict a
lot earlier than on renewal of your agreement
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or whether or not you're delivering on
what the parties agreed you would deliver.
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And so if they're not renewing,
you know some interveeting circumstances occurred or you
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know some it's a surprise for unrelated
reasons. But you're definitely blunting that variable
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down to zero in most cases.
So so you know and so you can
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plan and so you're spending less money
trying to maintain the work that you already
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have. Yeah, and I like
that the word you use, blunting it
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down and using the work vaccine,
confusing. I mean it's really if we're
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not getting renewed, there's a problem
there. And Yeah, well, say,
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it's not all about the numbers.
Right, if you don't work well
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as somebody or they they would prefer
or maybe thrive a client with cry at
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the different lead stakeholder, whether it's
an account person or, you know,
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a contributor or whatever at your agency. All those feelings still matter alone,
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right, but you you can work
through. Not. So you know who
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we whoi Valentine's Day feelings. I
can't work through and renew a client who
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are actually not helping them sell anything. Right, it's not possible in my
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experience. If not selling anything,
but they love working with you, what
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you will hear is we have really
enjoyed working with you. This is not
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working out. Yeah, yeah,
so stay in touch, but please,
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you know we will. We're going
to different direction, right, piece.
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Will see you maybe at the EDDEA
awards. Yeah, important. Well,
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I wanted to talk, you know, speaking of I want them to sort
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of talk with you a little bit
about your your client vetting and discovery process,
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because you know, not only are
you really diligent about looking at the
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numbers just very plainly throughout the engagement, but you do a lot of up
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front work and it's metrics focused as
well on vetting a client in the first
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place. You have a discovering onboarding
process that is somewhat democratic, although that's
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probably an overbroad term, because you
are the owner and you know, I've
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got to assume that you can reverse
or override and he decis you're not comfortable
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with. But talk, talk a
little bit about how you are vetting and
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handling discovery with new potential clients,
including your scorecarding process. Yes, so
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we recently, in the past year, discovered score cards. Had heard a
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lot about them from other agency owners
and even other businesses, and the promise
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of a scorecard is just to figure
out, numerically, a difficult question.
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Right should we identical question might be
should we work with this client or not?
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The answers are yes or no,
but actually getting to yes or nose
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a very difficult thing to sort through. And so what we used to do
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when we were a smaller agency is
we would, before we sent a proposal
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to a client, we would review
every single you know, new prospect with
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the entire team. We would talk
about a who kind of brief the team
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to Qa and then we would vote. So that, I was a very,
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you know, by the book,
Literal Democratic Process. Imagine you got
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your little primaries on CNN or Fox
or whatever station you watch, and then
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you move all the way down the
voting and we found that that was incredibly
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important that we would get a hundred
percent yes. Boat had to be unanimous
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and part of that came from you
know, I worked on the West Coast
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for ad agencies carry my business partners
from the North East. So she was
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in New York. That's some major
holding companies working for big agencies there.
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And what we would find is it
working in those worlds. You basically got
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this client tossed on your lap,
on it Tuesday morning and they would just,
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you know, a managing director or
your department head would just say,
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Hey, by the way, you're
going to be working with the Cleveland as
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fun. And you know, somebody
say to their colleague and they would whisper
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it. Would not say it outout
that they might whisper I don't know anything
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about baseball. there. Thanks for
for they I think the more accurate would
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be I don't know anything about basketball. And then they're collag would be medians
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are a baseball team. Yet exactly
for? I don't know anything about this,
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I don't have interest in it.
I might even have an objection,
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like I might have a moral or
professional and personal objection to this brand or
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business. So we wanted to bring
that voting process to the team and that's
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what we started with for the first
seven years of the company. And then
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last year we noticed that there were
some common variables that we were always discussed
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in a vote and in a briefing
and and Qa, and so we said,
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well, if we could turn this
into a score card, at least
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ten variables can you answered yes or
no, and yes, it's x amount
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of points. Now gets why?
Amount of points? We could actually speed
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this whole process up so I don't
have to brief the whole team on every
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single client, which that worked well
in the beginning when maybe we'd get like
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a couple leads a month. You
know, we average through, you know,
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referrals in bound are paid at hearts
who probably average anywhere between five and
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ten leads a week today. So
I can't talk to the whole team about
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ten leads every single week to breathe
them on it, every single one.
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Right. So we turn it into
a score card and we're testing it out.
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Probably take a year or longer to
see if our score card is any
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good or not, because you have
to put people through it, you have
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to bring them on board and then
you have to see if they stay on
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but the score card just spits out
a number and between seventy and a hundred
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it's just an automatic yes. And
we tell the team, hey, based
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on the score card of all of
your most important concern almost important variables,
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they support an automatic yes. So
this is just an FYI. It's happening
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between, I think it's fifty and
sixty or forty and sixty, a free
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the exact number on an Americ scale. will go back to our original process
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of breaking the team and having Qa
and then anything under think forty is just
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not a MAC now and what we've
found again, we've only been using a
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score card for a few months now. What we've found is that talking about
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we've talked about feelings are I can
feel a client's not going to work and
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then I put them to the score
card. I actually did this yesterday and
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it was numerically, I come like
an immediate now why? Okay? That,
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as an agency owner, felt good
to basically had your gut bound.
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It was like, there's some things
I'm worried about here. I wonder if
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we can overcome them to work together
and be productive as grouped, and then
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I put them to the score card
and it's like who they are and I
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think they scored like a twenty.
I think if you get your name right,
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to get ten points on our score
cards. So that's that's a good
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but, you know, it was
one of the whereas, like, I
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feel my gut is totally validated.
Yeah, but you know, if you
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if you were less mature in your
in your experience as an agency owner,
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your gut might not be as strong, right are you might be willing to
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overlook your gut for other factors,
like, you know, payrolls come in
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up at the end of the month
or you know. So it's good to
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have that metrics based verification or or
support for decisions that that feel right in
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your gut. I mean, I
do believe there are some occasions on which,
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as an owner or an entrepreneur,
something just doesn't sit well with you
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for whatever reason. That I mean, that's why you assume the risk of
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having your own business right so that
you can override some of those other decisions.
357
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You know, and you own your
own mistakes or own your own victories,
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whichever. But having the data that
you develop and have it having invented
359
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by so many of the team members, and using it also to explain your
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decisions to them so that they understand
the principles you're using and how you're loyal
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to them. I just it's evidence
of your carrying through the same approach with
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your clients and with your team about
how you're doing business, and so I
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love that. It makes the data
feel a lot more human to me and
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I wonder sometimes that that's why it's
Ikey, for lack of a more elegant
365
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word, to agency owners in a
very creative industry to have to spend so
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much time on those things, because
they feel, I don't know, sterile
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or not creative or not sexy or
fun, which are some of the other
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reasons why they might be in the
business in the first place. But these
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are, you know, decisions you
have to make to determine whether or not
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you're going to be viable as a
business, and you've created a way,
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I think, to make them feel
a little more human. Yeah, and
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it's you of before Simonsenec started talking
nonstop about, you know, starting with
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why, it's old Ted talk.
I think business owners didn't really have like
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a picture of why the why is
important, and I can, you know,
375
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be a little bit vulnerable here and
share something with you that early in
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our companies lives. Anytime we got
pushed back from employees, it was really
377
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difficult to hear. It felt like
your pull of assistance was being questioned,
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whether it's bring on a new client, making a hiring decision, the color
379
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of the tables and the off like
whatever. I mean. There was nothing
380
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too smaller, petty and right.
They wouldn't hurt my feelings and and I
381
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think that's by the best place that
it just hurts your feelings. Feels like
382
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you're being questioned right, and I
learned that you're not. In most cases.
383
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Are Certain exceptions, and you you
know, being an Attorneym t,
384
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you see quite a few of these
very, you completely dysfunctional offices where people
385
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are truly doubting your decisions. They
exist, I know, if few in
386
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an outside of the agency world,
but employees are generally asking for you to
387
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go into why, because they care
and they don't know everything that you do
388
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and you've got all this context in
your brain you haven't shared with them,
389
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that's locked in your head and all
this information that is both safe to share
390
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with them or not safe to share
with them. And so was kind of
391
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talking about why and having data to
back it up for the company. I
392
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think it's just a really great way
to meet them, not even halfway,
393
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but like come all the way across
the island, going to talk to the
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employees that this is why we're making
some decisions. And Right. We first
395
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presented at one of our all hands
meetings, the the new clients score card,
396
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the feedback, and I was kind
of gear enough for a lot of
397
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questions around methodology. Well, why
do you get five points for this and
398
00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:07.410
ten for that, and and it
like very tactical questions. Right, the
399
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first thing that was said was it's
about time. Really. Yeah, they're
400
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like, doesn't surprise me that we're
having this discussion and I don't want us
401
00:31:17.130 --> 00:31:18.559
to come across the wrong way.
kind of thought that we would get here
402
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a while ago and we would have
this sport card as a tool to help
403
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the business. And I was like
hum okay, like I'm all the feedback.
404
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:30.839
That was not the first thing I
thought I was going to hear.
405
00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:34.069
You know, it's really interesting that
you just shared that, because what I
406
00:31:34.150 --> 00:31:37.789
was thinking, as you were being
vulnerable, was I was going to offer
407
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something and this, I think,
is probably one of my vulnerabilities as an
408
00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:47.380
entrepreneur. I totally took the heart
what you just said about sometimes it really
409
00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:51.660
gets to your core when you are
first of all, you're sticking your neck
410
00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:55.579
out as an entrepreneur. You're assuming
all the risk the team members who work
411
00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:57.259
for you. The biggest risk they're
assuming is you're not going to be able
412
00:31:57.299 --> 00:32:01.609
to keep them employed, right,
which is not insignificant by any stretch of
413
00:32:01.690 --> 00:32:07.410
the imagination. But they're not seeing
all of them, the micro decisions and
414
00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:12.410
macro decisions that go into your life
day to day to make sure that that
415
00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:19.000
happens. And so yes, it's
it's very easy to to feel it personally
416
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.240
when you get that kind of a
pushback. One of my vulnerabilities is getting
417
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:30.269
past that as best I can once
I realize that. I was shocked by
418
00:32:30.430 --> 00:32:35.990
how little time other people actually spend
thinking about how you're going to feel about
419
00:32:35.990 --> 00:32:40.430
things. Yeah, really true.
They're so focused on their own and it's
420
00:32:40.509 --> 00:32:45.940
just human nature. It's not militious, it's not intentionally selfish, is just
421
00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:52.579
we're hardwired to just to be focused
on our self interests and and to the
422
00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:58.140
degree I think that US as entrepreneurs
or owners of the business, we're all
423
00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:02.049
worried about what they're thinking and why
they're thinking it, and they're all mired
424
00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:06.410
in their own stuff. It's got
nothing to do with us, and so
425
00:33:06.890 --> 00:33:12.569
I just think that those two things
put together are huge learnings for actually any
426
00:33:12.609 --> 00:33:15.720
business owner, but in this industry
in particular, your industry in particular,
427
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:22.799
where a lot of creative people,
a lot of sensitivity flying around on a
428
00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:29.069
day to day basis. Yeah,
I'll pass along some wisdom that was shared
429
00:33:29.109 --> 00:33:31.710
with me. When I worked in
Seattle. I was at an agent see
430
00:33:31.750 --> 00:33:36.470
by the name of Wong duties.
Two people's name smashed. Yeah, yes,
431
00:33:37.109 --> 00:33:42.700
and Tracy Wong, brilliant, creative, hilarious guy. Tracy and path
432
00:33:42.779 --> 00:33:47.059
started that agency in the S and
Tracy used to say something that totally resonated
433
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:51.940
with me and I think about it
a lot. Right, because he's in
434
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:54.730
the Creek Y is. He is
the creative right, and so he was
435
00:33:54.769 --> 00:34:00.089
always pitching ideas, pitching concepts,
pitching message of pitching everything, and he
436
00:34:00.170 --> 00:34:02.690
always used to kind of calm people
down before they client pitch, whether it
437
00:34:02.809 --> 00:34:07.529
was current piece of business or brand
new client or trying to bring the agency,
438
00:34:07.289 --> 00:34:10.320
and he would say it was enough
and there would be a couple of
439
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:14.599
bombs thrown in there that I won't
repeat because that's just tracy. If you
440
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:19.719
know, we literally ever heard him
speak in public. Well, yeah,
441
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:22.480
you know, F this, F
that. We probably on a good day
442
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:27.150
we're about to get in the car
and drive over the client songs. On
443
00:34:27.309 --> 00:34:31.949
a good day we probably have control
over ten percent of how this is going
444
00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:36.710
to go right. And people would
always be like, what are you talking
445
00:34:36.750 --> 00:34:39.099
about? and He, you know, he said, okay, how about
446
00:34:39.139 --> 00:34:45.139
his traffic this morning? Is Your
kid sick? Parents Sick you? Are
447
00:34:45.179 --> 00:34:50.219
You missing your spouse because they are? Management consultantly travel seven, like all
448
00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:52.050
these things you get brought are going
to get rock to the meet you have
449
00:34:52.329 --> 00:34:57.130
no control of. So on a
good day you might have like at this
450
00:34:57.289 --> 00:35:00.690
meeting, you might have ten percent
of their attention and ten percent control of
451
00:35:00.809 --> 00:35:02.849
what's going to happen. On a
normal day it's probably closer to five.
452
00:35:05.130 --> 00:35:08.320
Yeah, just relax, going there, talk about your stuff, bitch of
453
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:12.480
concepts. They're probably going to shoot
a bunch of them down. They're going
454
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.000
to tell you they want to be
brave and then they're going to pick French
455
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:20.960
Vanilla. Yeah, instead of you
know, lightning blue or whatever color you're
456
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:22.869
trying to get them to go towards. That it's totally about them. It's
457
00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:28.510
not about you. That's nothing to
do with you and it and I'm again,
458
00:35:28.829 --> 00:35:32.150
I said again in this show,
I'm not the creative type. I'm
459
00:35:32.389 --> 00:35:37.179
ones and Zeros and proud of it. But I the same thing happens when
460
00:35:37.219 --> 00:35:45.019
you present data. You know,
the equivalent for a data focus agency or
461
00:35:45.019 --> 00:35:51.289
or data focus marketer of getting your
lightning blue shot down is a client looking
462
00:35:51.289 --> 00:35:53.809
at a presentation and saying, where
did these numbers come from? Tell me
463
00:35:53.889 --> 00:35:58.289
about that. HMMM, sales,
no, HMM, I was just in
464
00:35:58.369 --> 00:36:02.489
a meeting with our VPS sales.
You're showing two different numbers. That is
465
00:36:02.610 --> 00:36:07.119
like the equivalent of lightning blue getting
shot down a hundred times. You're just
466
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:14.199
like, Oh my God, yeah, yeah, potentially the inaccurate data and
467
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:17.559
and now about to start in the
internal conflict over whose data is and that's
468
00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:21.710
something you know, coming back to
what you can and can't control, you
469
00:36:21.750 --> 00:36:24.909
can come in with the best of
intentions, pull the data wrong and then
470
00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:29.269
show it to somebody in see sweet
and they're going to shoot you down and
471
00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:30.869
it's going to be one of those
awkward meetings. It's just going to suck
472
00:36:30.869 --> 00:36:36.300
until it ends, and it really
opposite. We like last week we had
473
00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:40.139
a client who said your numbers are
matching up and we had pulled one of
474
00:36:40.179 --> 00:36:45.059
their data sets into our business intelligence
tool and we said, well, actually,
475
00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:49.090
in a database it's in. It
doesn't total everything up, so our
476
00:36:49.289 --> 00:36:53.329
our bi tool did that for you, and they were like Huh, okay,
477
00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:58.170
and I could see the gears turning, because now they were thinking who
478
00:36:58.250 --> 00:37:01.679
do I need to go backtrack to
and correct this data to right, right,
479
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:06.800
right, for? He's not a
fault. I said something that was
480
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.519
inaccurate. Again, that's of intentions, but it happened and people are making
481
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.000
decisions based on this information. So
I need help, you know. I
482
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:15.550
need to figure out who did I
tell and when did I tell them?
483
00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:19.389
It's like a chain of evidence,
almost like I got to go to this
484
00:37:19.510 --> 00:37:23.429
mental people shade of Em it's that's
a block chain is for people. Yeah,
485
00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:29.909
yes, one, number two,
another. Yeah, I that is
486
00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:32.980
well. You know, what you
just said reminded me of something we talked
487
00:37:34.019 --> 00:37:39.260
about earlier and I guess I would
love to spend one of our last few
488
00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:47.090
minutes talking about you was some interesting
points of view on Adency client relationships and
489
00:37:49.010 --> 00:37:53.210
the real reasons why agencies get hired
and fired, and also the lies that
490
00:37:53.289 --> 00:37:58.489
you think that agencies tell themselves about
why it happens. And what you just
491
00:37:58.570 --> 00:38:02.840
said about that conversation sort of made
me think of you bringing that up earlier,
492
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.880
and so let's talk about that for
a minute. What's your what's your
493
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:13.949
working theory about the reasons why agencies
actually get hired versus maybe why they think
494
00:38:13.989 --> 00:38:19.429
they do and one are the things
that agencies should stop telling themselves about why
495
00:38:19.469 --> 00:38:23.190
they're really getting hired? Sure,
and and as loud as I have been
496
00:38:23.230 --> 00:38:29.860
about being analytical and ones and zero's, this is a totally qualitative me just
497
00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:34.380
punting the pavement, talking to prospective
clients, talking to current clients, talking
498
00:38:34.460 --> 00:38:38.619
to former clients. I really would
love to turn this into a cohesive study
499
00:38:38.739 --> 00:38:44.809
or paper, but I'll let you
coach for what it's data, I know,
500
00:38:45.010 --> 00:38:49.369
yeah, or some sitting your time
about building presentations. I'll let you
501
00:38:49.489 --> 00:38:51.809
coach me through it. If you
think I'm getting off practice kind of nudge
502
00:38:51.809 --> 00:38:55.400
be in the right direction. So
there's a couple. Here's my working theory.
503
00:38:55.800 --> 00:39:02.440
Agencies get hired for two reasons.
It's either expertise or time. I
504
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:07.760
don't mean time that you build,
I mean the client doesn't have time to
505
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.630
do whatever you're being hired to do. They get hired for those two reasons.
506
00:39:10.670 --> 00:39:15.670
Because on the time front, what
I found in my reason in my
507
00:39:16.269 --> 00:39:22.829
research is for larger companies they usually
have set headcounts that they can add to
508
00:39:22.869 --> 00:39:25.820
the to their department or organization.
So they might have the money to go
509
00:39:25.940 --> 00:39:30.820
hire a full time equivalent employee,
stick them in and office, give them
510
00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:32.940
a computer and say do this job, but they might not have the head
511
00:39:32.940 --> 00:39:37.929
account for and as incredibly frustrating for
clients. I've seen clients who have actually
512
00:39:37.969 --> 00:39:42.929
told me as prospects. They said, to be honest, don't really want
513
00:39:42.929 --> 00:39:45.889
to hire you or anybody. Here's
what I want to do, but I
514
00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:51.250
can't do it right right. The
other thing that I've heard actually a lot
515
00:39:51.329 --> 00:39:55.119
last right or in a tight labor
market, it's top to convince people that
516
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:59.840
your company is where they should spend
forty plus hours a week away from their
517
00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:01.880
family and other, you know,
fun stuff that they do. The other
518
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:08.429
part is experienced or expertise. I
talked to multiple prospects last year who almost
519
00:40:08.469 --> 00:40:12.269
use the exact same language. It
was like they were talking to one of
520
00:40:12.309 --> 00:40:14.630
them, even though I knew they
weren't. They didn't know each other.
521
00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:20.510
And they said we actually have interviewed
quite a few people to come work here
522
00:40:20.550 --> 00:40:23.780
full time. Haven't found anybody that
we really thought would excel on this job.
523
00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:28.099
And the end of that sentence tends
to change either with sell on this
524
00:40:28.179 --> 00:40:30.619
job, who we think we want
to hire, who we were impressed with.
525
00:40:31.539 --> 00:40:36.090
Basically, they can't find anyone.
It's a tight market and so we
526
00:40:36.769 --> 00:40:39.210
as cut saying the collective week.
If you are at an AGC, I'm
527
00:40:39.289 --> 00:40:44.730
speaking to you now. Hm.
We show up with the same one talent.
528
00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:47.769
So it's like, Hey, all
that painful hr stuff that you're frustrated
529
00:40:47.769 --> 00:40:52.280
about and you've got these open,
physical open seats in your office that you're
530
00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:54.079
staring at every day. They're just
mocking right, they're looking at you to
531
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:58.480
that. I dare you to film. You can't find anybody. We show
532
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:01.360
up with a stable of talent and
we say, Hey, meet some of
533
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:06.190
our people and you like him,
I dress, but we're going to bring
534
00:41:06.309 --> 00:41:09.670
you talent to the trough, so
to speak, as opposed to you having
535
00:41:09.869 --> 00:41:15.070
to fight the labor market here.
So, like I said, usually comes
536
00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:21.139
down to time or expertise. The
other thing that I've seen outside that of
537
00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:24.980
my agencies might get hired is so
you do have a head count, so
538
00:41:25.179 --> 00:41:30.500
we're let's talk about deal the computer
company. They'll has head count. I
539
00:41:30.619 --> 00:41:35.369
hire a senior content strategist. Great. Who does she were report to?
540
00:41:36.489 --> 00:41:39.809
What is her dotted and solid line
within the organization? Is there anybody focused
541
00:41:39.849 --> 00:41:44.130
on her development? Because, again, coming back to the tight labor market
542
00:41:44.289 --> 00:41:47.119
comment, and I think unemployment is, you know, hovering someone between three
543
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:52.039
and five percent. It's usually or
a strange when I check if you hired
544
00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:58.719
this person and she has no path
to getting getting better, getting promoted,
545
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:04.630
learning things, being supported internally with
a tight labor market, that's not an
546
00:42:04.670 --> 00:42:07.150
attractive job to accept. And she
might accept it. She might say that
547
00:42:07.429 --> 00:42:10.789
the pay is good, looks like
easy work. It's actually a short community.
548
00:42:10.789 --> 00:42:14.389
It's like a five minute drive from
my house. I'll go work here
549
00:42:14.429 --> 00:42:16.500
for a little bit. More often
than not, when I'm seen from on
550
00:42:16.699 --> 00:42:22.900
the talent side of the employees who
are bringing their talents to the table is
551
00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:27.139
they're just saying listen. If there
isn't plan for me, that's not really
552
00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:30.170
attractive. I'm kind of like this
hate that at any moment the string could
553
00:42:30.210 --> 00:42:35.369
get by a parasitsten's and nobody's really
focused on where I'm flying or how vast
554
00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:37.489
and going or how high I'm flying. That's cleanly not attractive. And so
555
00:42:38.369 --> 00:42:42.250
those are what I'm in. Those
are some of the things that I'm starting
556
00:42:42.329 --> 00:42:46.800
to see and I would end with
a question that Andre, our sales guy,
557
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:52.079
and I tend to ask a lot
of prospects. We tend to ask
558
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.679
why you hire in an agency,
because I truly want to know. Why
559
00:42:55.719 --> 00:43:00.670
don't you hire this in house?
Why don't you hire a single ninety nine
560
00:43:00.710 --> 00:43:04.230
contractor? Right is there's so much
work here that a single person couldn't do
561
00:43:04.269 --> 00:43:07.550
it. And if you say yes
to the agency, that it's you know,
562
00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:12.469
why would you hire the agency that? Why do you want our organizations
563
00:43:12.550 --> 00:43:16.260
to collide work together for the next
twelve plus months? And those are the
564
00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:20.500
question of started minds with that.
Those are that's where we start getting answers
565
00:43:20.539 --> 00:43:24.659
around time, experience, development of
employees, care and higher than full time
566
00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:30.809
inhouse at Dell or wherever you are
and those are those are the trends that
567
00:43:30.929 --> 00:43:34.929
I'm seeing a lot of. And
and the most I don't want to call
568
00:43:34.929 --> 00:43:39.650
it alarming, but the most intriguing
trend is people can't find who they want
569
00:43:40.130 --> 00:43:45.079
and so they're just deciding to hire
nobody. It's almost that this asion is
570
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:50.280
so complex they can't see what they
want and so they just make no decision
571
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:54.239
at all, right here in our
voice, right, right. Well,
572
00:43:54.639 --> 00:44:04.070
I think if anyone can develop the
data to either flush out that theory or
573
00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.710
or lead you to a different conclusion, it's it's you and your team at
574
00:44:07.789 --> 00:44:15.139
kg right though. Yeah, so
I would love to see that. If
575
00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:17.139
you ever do that study, let
me know because I love to have you
576
00:44:17.219 --> 00:44:21.659
back and I'd love to talk about
it. I think I'd be fascinating for
577
00:44:21.860 --> 00:44:25.769
agency folks listening to this to to
learn more about the real reasons, because
578
00:44:25.809 --> 00:44:30.289
any data you can gather to help
you understand better whether or not you have
579
00:44:30.369 --> 00:44:37.010
a shot, especially in new business
situations, is helpful and takes friction out
580
00:44:37.010 --> 00:44:43.840
of the process. And Yeah,
this has been a fascinating conversation. I
581
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:51.960
am I am not personally a data
girl, because I think if I had
582
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:53.949
been, I probably would have chosen
a different carror path in my life,
583
00:44:54.110 --> 00:45:02.389
but I know how just increasingly important
it is in the life of a marketer
584
00:45:02.750 --> 00:45:07.940
and of an agency that supports marketing, and so it's been fascinating to get
585
00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:13.900
the take of the owner of a
data focus. This agency just puts it
586
00:45:13.980 --> 00:45:17.980
right out there from the time you
bring a new client on until the time
587
00:45:19.539 --> 00:45:22.210
you're ready to renew or not with
them, and so I really appreciate you
588
00:45:22.369 --> 00:45:27.849
sharing your perspective today. Mike.
This has been a really interesting conversation.
589
00:45:27.929 --> 00:45:30.090
I learned a lot and I really
enjoyed it. So I want to thank
590
00:45:30.130 --> 00:45:34.610
you for being a guest on the
podcast and I also want to give the
591
00:45:35.170 --> 00:45:39.199
agency leaders and owners who are listening
today an opportunity to learn more about the
592
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:44.159
work that Mkg does. So where's
where the best places that they can reach
593
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:49.360
you or the agency? Yeah,
I'd start with our website. The short
594
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:57.230
vanity URL is mkg period marketing.
Do you type that into your url bar
595
00:45:57.429 --> 00:46:00.110
and the browser you'll go straight to
our website. And then we own all
596
00:46:00.150 --> 00:46:07.059
of our social handles by me.
So it's mkg marketing, IMC like Charlie,
597
00:46:07.820 --> 00:46:12.099
and if you look us up on
twitter, facebook, linkedin or INSTAGRAMM
598
00:46:12.460 --> 00:46:16.059
instagrams new for us to make sure, like all our posts, also appreciated,
599
00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:21.130
and we're always happy to talk to
other agency owners. I'm I'm actually
600
00:46:21.250 --> 00:46:25.769
personally part of a few I guess
you call like think tank groups, you
601
00:46:25.809 --> 00:46:30.010
know, a fellow agency owners spread
across the North America, in the US
602
00:46:30.170 --> 00:46:34.519
and Canada, and we're always talking
about, you know, financial metrics,
603
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:38.559
other questions that are coming up,
and so I welcome anybody who wants to
604
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:44.039
to learn and also to share experience. Really encourage you, you know,
605
00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:46.949
get in touch with me. Let's
talk and love to share experiences and learn
606
00:46:46.989 --> 00:46:50.750
from one another, and it's not
a competitive thing at all. It's just
607
00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:54.550
two business owners trying to try to
navigate the world of building a strong,
608
00:46:54.670 --> 00:46:59.670
healthy agency. I love it.
Well, Mike, Thank you so much
609
00:46:59.670 --> 00:47:05.260
for sharing your time and your story
today. Really appreciate it and I will
610
00:47:05.260 --> 00:47:08.460
talk with the rest of you the
next episode of the Innovative Agency. Thanks
611
00:47:08.500 --> 00:47:15.500
for joining US everyone. We really
hope you enjoyed this episode in the Hashtag
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00:47:15.579 --> 00:47:20.889
Agency series from the innovative agency.
To hear more episodes along these lines,
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check out the innovative agency in Apple
podcast. Your favorite podcast player or the
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00:47:25.289 --> 00:47:29.610
links right in the show notes for
this episode. As always, thank you
615
00:47:29.690 --> 00:47:36.159
so much for listening. One of
the things we've learned about podcast audience growth
616
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is that word of mouth works.
It works really, really well actually.
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So if you love this show,
it would be awesome if you texted a
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friend to tell them about it,
and if you send me a text with
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a screenshot of the text you sent
to your friend, Metta, I know
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I'll send you a copy of my
book content based networking, how to instantly
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connect with anyone you want to know
myself phone numbers four hundred seven, four
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nine, hundred three and three,
two eight. Happy texting.