#BestOf2019: Are Podcasts the Next Big SEO Opportunity? w/ Sam Balter

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.310 Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one 2 00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:11.189 of the cohosts of this show. For the last year and a half I've 3 00:00:11.189 --> 00:00:14.990 been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three 4 00:00:15.029 --> 00:00:18.910 part framework we've used as the foundation for our growth. Here is sweetfish. 5 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.620 Now there are lots of companies that everised a bunch of money and have grown 6 00:00:22.699 --> 00:00:25.579 insanely fast, and we featured a lot of them here on the show. 7 00:00:26.339 --> 00:00:30.579 We've decided to bootstrap our business, which usually equates to pretty slow growth, 8 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:34.700 but using the strategy outlined in the book, we are on pace to be 9 00:00:34.859 --> 00:00:38.609 one of inks fastest growing companies in two thousand and twenty. The book is 10 00:00:38.729 --> 00:00:42.729 called content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. 11 00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:45.329 If you're a fan of audio books like me, you can find the 12 00:00:45.369 --> 00:00:48.450 book on audible or if you like physical books, you can also find it 13 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:54.359 on Amazon. Just search content based networking or James carberry CR be a ary 14 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.719 in audible or Amazon and it should pop right up. All right, let's 15 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.439 get into the show. Hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish here. 16 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.629 It's a new year and at do decade and we're celebrating by rounding up the 17 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:11.469 top twenty episodes as we look back on two thousand and nineteen. Will be 18 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.950 sharing them here throughout the month of January in our Hashtag best of two thousand 19 00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:19.900 and nineteen series. And coming in at number twelve is an episode that I 20 00:01:19.980 --> 00:01:23.420 got a lot of feedback on last year. Many people were really intrigued by 21 00:01:23.459 --> 00:01:30.459 what Sam Balter over at hubs on shared around the Seo Opportunity in podcasting right 22 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:36.129 now. Welcome back to be tob growth. This is another episode in our 23 00:01:36.209 --> 00:01:38.890 hy podcast work series. My name is Logan Lyles, was sweet fish media. 24 00:01:38.930 --> 00:01:45.129 I'm joined today by Sam Balter. He is a senior marketing manager podcasts 25 00:01:45.409 --> 00:01:49.439 at hub spot. Will get into white. PODCAST is actually in his title. 26 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:52.879 He's also the host of the weird work podcast from hub spot. Sam, 27 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.519 how's it going today, man? It's going great. I'm so happy 28 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:57.280 to be here. Awesome, man. Well, I would love for you 29 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:01.310 to give folks a little bit of context. Obviously anybody listening to this most 30 00:02:01.349 --> 00:02:06.230 likely knows of hub spot, knows what you guys do, but give us 31 00:02:06.230 --> 00:02:08.669 a little bit of context on your background, what you and the team are 32 00:02:08.710 --> 00:02:12.669 up to at a hub spot, and then we're going to dive into some 33 00:02:12.830 --> 00:02:15.340 specific things. You wrote an article for marketing props about, you know, 34 00:02:15.539 --> 00:02:21.900 a huge seo opportunity potentially in the podcasting space based on some things Google is 35 00:02:21.979 --> 00:02:23.539 doing. But before we get into that, give us a little context. 36 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:25.699 Man. What are you guys up to these days? Yeah, so, 37 00:02:27.020 --> 00:02:30.610 just for just for in case anybody hasn't heard of hub spot, where a 38 00:02:30.650 --> 00:02:34.650 company that bakes marketing, sales and service software that helps companies grow, and 39 00:02:35.409 --> 00:02:38.610 the show that I host is weird work. It's a podcast where I interview 40 00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:42.449 folks who kind of left the traditional nine to five jobs to pursue an unusual 41 00:02:42.490 --> 00:02:46.240 occupation. So for us, we've been doing podcasting and hub spot for a 42 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:51.080 few years now and we've launched a couple shows. We have the grows show, 43 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:53.000 we have scale up, we have weird work and I've taken on this 44 00:02:53.159 --> 00:03:00.069 role of marketing manager for podcast to kind of just grow our global audience of 45 00:03:00.150 --> 00:03:04.590 podcast listeners. So it's something that we are continuing to vest and it's a 46 00:03:04.669 --> 00:03:07.590 going that we see as a big channel that has a lot of room for 47 00:03:07.789 --> 00:03:10.110 growth and it's kind of like, even though that podcasting has been a why 48 00:03:10.310 --> 00:03:14.740 around for a while. It's still feels like very early stage right now, 49 00:03:14.860 --> 00:03:19.419 especially for companies. Yeah, absolutely. I mean there are some big indicators 50 00:03:19.539 --> 00:03:23.860 with spotify's acquisitions last year, with the growth of the number of podcasts, 51 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:25.979 but there is still a lot of green field opportunity. I think. You 52 00:03:27.060 --> 00:03:29.250 know, when things we talked about a sweet fish. A lot is. 53 00:03:29.449 --> 00:03:31.409 You know, when podcasting first came around, we weren't quite ready for it 54 00:03:31.689 --> 00:03:37.729 right and now there are just a lot of social and technological factors that are 55 00:03:37.810 --> 00:03:42.159 playing into what I call a second wave of podcasting. Before we jump into 56 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:47.080 the audio and Seo Topic for today, you know something you touched on their 57 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:53.599 salmon's how you guys have invested in podcast and explored podcasts at hub spot and 58 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:58.189 obviously being a thought leader in the marketing space in Bob. I would love 59 00:03:58.430 --> 00:04:01.469 for you to share some of the things that you guys have thought about internally 60 00:04:01.590 --> 00:04:05.750 and other brands should be thinking about. On why would you add podcasting to 61 00:04:05.789 --> 00:04:10.900 your mix, because obviously there's reason why you moved into this role. You 62 00:04:10.939 --> 00:04:15.020 guys are dedicating resources to it. Give us a little bit of context there 63 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:17.819 and what was the the thinking in the strategy for you guys? Yeah, 64 00:04:17.819 --> 00:04:21.740 I mean I think a lot of companies are looking at podcast now. They're 65 00:04:21.779 --> 00:04:27.610 looking at starting podcast, and I think part of the reason is just because 66 00:04:27.649 --> 00:04:31.329 more and more people find themselves consuming information that way. A lot of marketers 67 00:04:31.370 --> 00:04:34.649 are out there listening to podcast and they think like maybe this is a viable 68 00:04:34.689 --> 00:04:40.279 channel for me. For us, we look at it as like podcast audiences 69 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.120 also been growing. Right we're at a point where more than half of the 70 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.079 United States has listened to a podcast. More than a third of the United 71 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:51.439 States is monthly listeners, and we're also seeing that when you look at the 72 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:59.069 demographics of that audience, for almost any business it's a really great demographic slice. 73 00:04:59.069 --> 00:05:03.550 It's people who are young, millennials, who are well educated, so 74 00:05:03.629 --> 00:05:06.899 they're more likely to have kind of higher paying jobs, they're more affluent, 75 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:12.579 things like that. So it's this really good group of people that businesses are 76 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:15.500 going to want to interact with. So that's one thing to keep in mind. 77 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:19.060 Is just like the audience is good and people are consuming the content and 78 00:05:19.620 --> 00:05:25.410 generally marketers kind of flock to those two things, like content, engagement, 79 00:05:25.569 --> 00:05:29.649 mark and a good market. The other thing is for us, and especially 80 00:05:29.689 --> 00:05:31.449 as we've started to kind of expand out the number of shows we have. 81 00:05:31.610 --> 00:05:34.410 We don't. We used to just have the grows show, which was very 82 00:05:34.449 --> 00:05:39.439 thought leadership, very business interviews focused. Then we have skill out, which 83 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:42.439 is very how to weird work, which is a little more mass appeal. 84 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:47.800 That podcast content is in itself really flexible, right, like you and I 85 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.790 could have a podcast in this episode could be five minutes long. We could 86 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:55.430 also release an episode next week that's a forty five minute podcast, right. 87 00:05:55.550 --> 00:06:00.149 It's hard to necessarily do that with a lot of other mediums. You know, 88 00:06:00.230 --> 00:06:02.389 you might have video. People don't want to watch a video that's like 89 00:06:02.509 --> 00:06:06.660 forty five minutes long. So that's really cool the flexibility of the content. 90 00:06:06.980 --> 00:06:11.139 And the other thing that I think is really is important for marketers that a 91 00:06:11.459 --> 00:06:15.779 lot of marketers worry about is like am I cannibalizing my other channels? And 92 00:06:16.420 --> 00:06:19.610 if I have people, if I'm pushing people to a podcast, is it 93 00:06:19.730 --> 00:06:25.569 going to be a more convoluted conversion process than having them go to a blog 94 00:06:25.689 --> 00:06:29.089 post? So maybe I should not ever do a box podcast because I want 95 00:06:29.129 --> 00:06:31.089 all my listeners to be on a block. But that thing is podcasts just 96 00:06:31.170 --> 00:06:36.199 aren't consumed in the same time and space as things like webinars and blog post 97 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:40.959 so it's also an area where brands can look at it and they could be 98 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:44.759 like, oh, this is a great opportunity. It's furthering our engagement with 99 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:49.029 individuals, it's not being interrupted into some sort of time in their day and 100 00:06:49.310 --> 00:06:54.310 it fits in really well with their schedule. So basically, kind of just 101 00:06:54.470 --> 00:06:58.829 as a quick summary, it's like great audience, flexible content, good good 102 00:06:58.870 --> 00:07:01.699 time where it's not cannibalizing other channels. Yeah, you make a great point. 103 00:07:01.699 --> 00:07:04.699 I talked with folks all the time. I heard Gary v talk about, 104 00:07:04.939 --> 00:07:09.740 you know, the the TRIFECTA, the triple threat of podcasting. The 105 00:07:09.860 --> 00:07:12.620 other day I I was going to say on Linkedin, but of course, 106 00:07:12.779 --> 00:07:15.329 Gary View it was on Linkedin, instagram, twitter, everywhere. It's ready 107 00:07:15.449 --> 00:07:19.170 talked about that idea of passive consumption. You know, whether you're walking the 108 00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:25.970 dog or you're driving, you're not taking up time where that attention you're taking 109 00:07:26.050 --> 00:07:28.889 them from a blog post or a video or a Webinar that they would be 110 00:07:28.930 --> 00:07:32.519 attending. Your gaining market share of attention, like Gary v talks about, 111 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:36.199 you know, day trading attention. That's what we want as marketers is at 112 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:41.240 tension and trust, and so you're gaining kind of this green field area of 113 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:45.110 attention that's not already being taken advantage of. The other thing it made me 114 00:07:45.230 --> 00:07:46.990 think of is, you know, and this would be me getting on our 115 00:07:47.110 --> 00:07:50.230 soapbox here a little bit at sweet fish, but you have a podcast. 116 00:07:50.350 --> 00:07:54.269 It can feed those other content. You know, we have a thirty minute 117 00:07:54.269 --> 00:07:58.509 conversation that turns into a blog post, that turns into a two hundred word 118 00:07:58.779 --> 00:08:01.300 status update on Linkedin, it turns into a little thread on twitter, all 119 00:08:01.339 --> 00:08:05.699 those sorts of things. So I could talk on that for a while, 120 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:09.660 but it you summarize it really, really well, Sam so let's dive into 121 00:08:09.939 --> 00:08:13.529 this topic that led you to write the article for marketing props, basically framing 122 00:08:13.569 --> 00:08:20.290 audio as potentially one of the next biggest SEO opportunities for marketers. Tell us 123 00:08:20.329 --> 00:08:22.129 a little bit about what's going on there, what you guys see, and 124 00:08:22.209 --> 00:08:26.810 will dive into it. Yeah, totally. So I think like just stepping 125 00:08:26.930 --> 00:08:30.480 back a little bit, one of the things people have been noticing about podcasts 126 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.519 for years is that there's this big issue with discovery. Right it's hard to 127 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:39.360 actually find podcast and and you see that as like people mostly recommend podcast through 128 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.830 word of mouth or you tend to see a lot of people finding podcast through 129 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:48.669 things like a top one hundred chart. and Google is in a really interesting 130 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:56.500 position because Google has this you know, has this mission to basically catalogue every 131 00:08:56.539 --> 00:09:01.019 single piece of information out there and make it searchable. So obviously you have 132 00:09:01.179 --> 00:09:05.659 this huge wealth of information in podcasting and that has a discoverability problem. So 133 00:09:05.820 --> 00:09:11.730 this is like ripe for Google to take on and one of the big things 134 00:09:11.769 --> 00:09:16.450 they said last year it's they've sort of mentioned we want to double the number 135 00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:20.370 of lists of podcast listeners globally in the next few years. They've done things 136 00:09:20.649 --> 00:09:28.120 where they've started building more podcast into their phones, into their software, into 137 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.279 everything they have, and they've also mentioned that they're going to start surfacing more 138 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:39.750 and more podcast up in search results. And once somebody mentions Google putting something 139 00:09:39.830 --> 00:09:43.909 good to search results, like obviously marketers are going to take notice. So 140 00:09:43.070 --> 00:09:46.110 that's sort of a rat. Now we have the big problem that they're trying 141 00:09:46.110 --> 00:09:50.269 to solve and then the question is, like how is that going to kind 142 00:09:50.309 --> 00:09:54.659 of play out, like how and what is that opportunity? So I think 143 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:58.500 the important thing for us to think about is, like Google wants to get 144 00:09:58.539 --> 00:10:01.980 a bunch of people listening to podcast so with that means they need to get 145 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:07.139 guest content in front of people more often. So the first thing they decided 146 00:10:07.169 --> 00:10:11.809 to do is transcribe all podcast content. Right, all podcast content is already 147 00:10:11.850 --> 00:10:16.649 being transcribed by Google in this point. So now it's a question of how 148 00:10:16.769 --> 00:10:20.129 is that content got to get start getting surfaced up, and I think the 149 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:24.759 best analog to look at would be how did youtube videos move into search? 150 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:31.080 And I don't know if I don't know if you remember like this sort of 151 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.830 pathway that you saw, like first there was a little video tab on Google. 152 00:10:37.350 --> 00:10:39.990 Then there was like you started seeing if you typed in, you know, 153 00:10:41.190 --> 00:10:45.070 maybe interview with Kim Kardashian or something like that, there would be all 154 00:10:45.110 --> 00:10:48.429 of a sudden would pop up and you would see a video on top of 155 00:10:48.509 --> 00:10:52.340 your search results in a carousel. There's a really good reason to believe that 156 00:10:52.460 --> 00:10:58.820 this is how Google is going to move podcast results in, because people might 157 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:01.379 say Google might say, Oh, okay, you know, you want to 158 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:07.570 have an interview with Kim Kardashian. It might surface up audio results as well 159 00:11:07.649 --> 00:11:11.250 as results that are related to videos or articles or things like that. So 160 00:11:11.450 --> 00:11:16.250 talk a little bit about the transcription piece that you've mentioned, Sam that Google's 161 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:22.919 already transcribing podcast that is, all of those that are live in their native 162 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.399 directory. Right, Google podcast, correct. So that's that's something you need 163 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.840 to be thinking about if you have a podcast and you want to start, 164 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.990 let veraging this opportunity that your show should be live in that directory. Right. 165 00:11:33.029 --> 00:11:35.750 Yeah, oh, absolutely, and Google has offered. They've also offered 166 00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:41.350 some really basics on on page seo so that you know if you in bed 167 00:11:41.429 --> 00:11:45.789 your RSS Player in there, there's some tagging you can do on your page 168 00:11:45.870 --> 00:11:48.580 to make sure that you know it says this is a podcast page, we 169 00:11:48.740 --> 00:11:54.059 have podcast content. Basically, if you look up Google's best practices on it, 170 00:11:54.139 --> 00:11:56.779 it's a great thing to include on your site. It's just very basic 171 00:11:56.860 --> 00:12:03.730 start a housekeeping. 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Specifically, Cap Tara directive grew sales accepted lead volume 180 00:12:50.179 --> 00:12:54.899 by one hundred percent, increased cap teric conversion volume by three hundred and thirty 181 00:12:54.899 --> 00:13:01.850 six percent and boosted pre qualified clicks to Captera by thirty nine percent. If 182 00:13:01.889 --> 00:13:05.730 you're looking for results like this with your search engine marketing, there's a good 183 00:13:05.769 --> 00:13:11.850 chance directive can help. Visit Directive consultingcom and get a free customized proposal. 184 00:13:11.929 --> 00:13:16.279 All right, let's get back to the show Nice. I love it. 185 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:20.639 So where do you see some of the folks that are maybe not not podcasting 186 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:26.269 yet? What is the opportunity for them with audio being added to search and 187 00:13:26.669 --> 00:13:31.590 how should they be thinking about it? You know, quantity, types of 188 00:13:31.710 --> 00:13:35.830 shows. What what is going to likely play into this the most? I 189 00:13:35.909 --> 00:13:37.429 mean, I think in your article you mentioned like the big winners are going 190 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:41.230 to be folks that already have a ton of content. So if you're not 191 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.899 doing audio content yet, just start, because that volume there. It's kind 192 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:48.460 of, you know, maybe like the early days of you know, when 193 00:13:48.620 --> 00:13:52.539 when hub spot started putting up massive blog content and then and the quantity, 194 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:56.529 you know, was number one, and then it starts to become other things, 195 00:13:56.610 --> 00:14:00.250 this strategy, the quality, all those sorts of things. So talk 196 00:14:00.289 --> 00:14:01.570 to us a little bit about there, because I think you know, you 197 00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:05.330 being at hub spot, there's some interesting correlations here of what you guys went 198 00:14:05.409 --> 00:14:09.690 through, you know, maybe ten years ago, and the shift in audio 199 00:14:09.889 --> 00:14:13.200 here, you know, much like you guys leverage flogs when that was less 200 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.720 of a crowded space. Yeah, totally. I mean Husbun as done an 201 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.039 amazing job of created content in basically text intent over the years. Like we've 202 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.110 really thrived at that and I think being an early mover and having a high 203 00:14:26.149 --> 00:14:30.590 production sort of method of creating a lot of blog boast and then going back 204 00:14:30.669 --> 00:14:33.950 at a highly creating like that has been a very, very effective strategy for 205 00:14:35.029 --> 00:14:39.700 brands. I think it's actually I think it's also sort of important to think 206 00:14:39.700 --> 00:14:45.700 about blogs as one of the things that helped hub spots blogs do well is 207 00:14:45.779 --> 00:14:50.539 we understand how the search result and the blog end up getting to each other. 208 00:14:50.980 --> 00:14:54.330 Right we started writing blogs that were saying how to, because we know 209 00:14:54.529 --> 00:14:58.169 that's a term. We know that when two things are verse each other, 210 00:14:58.370 --> 00:15:01.769 that's a term, that's a what a thing we should write. Like even 211 00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:07.399 Brian Halligan has talked about sort of the very early blogging stuff that they would 212 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.240 write and they would be like it was like business school class things, you 213 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:15.960 know, it was like longwinded essays on like PNL and all of these other 214 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.919 things that it's like that wasn't going to work for search. So I think 215 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.350 one of the things to think about is like, yes, there's going to 216 00:15:22.389 --> 00:15:26.389 be this really nice early admit mover advantage for, you know, people like 217 00:15:26.509 --> 00:15:31.470 sweetfish who have created an enormous amount of content that's really easily crawlable and then 218 00:15:31.470 --> 00:15:35.940 it has like really catchy headlines and titles and stuff like that that are going 219 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:39.539 to align super well to search results. So the people are going to do 220 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:43.139 well in the beginning are definitely going to be people who have all of this 221 00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:48.220 stuff already. But I think to your question more like you're just starting out. 222 00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:52.730 What should you do? Think about it. In my mind it's like 223 00:15:54.809 --> 00:16:00.169 think about how search is going to change the format of podcasting, and in 224 00:16:00.289 --> 00:16:03.679 a lot of ways, like, if you think about how podcast will be 225 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:10.080 consumed in a search sense, it's probably going to be shorter episodes. Right, 226 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.600 if you look at the top one hundred podcasts, the average episode length 227 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.039 is about forty five minutes. But if you think about how people are going 228 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.710 to find podcast via search, I got a feeling that it's going to be 229 00:16:19.750 --> 00:16:26.750 a lot more shorter episodes, because shorter episodes increase more ranking opportunities, which 230 00:16:26.789 --> 00:16:30.269 means you're going to show up more often. The other thing to think about 231 00:16:30.509 --> 00:16:37.220 is like how you structure all of your information, and the way we talked 232 00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:41.700 about things a lot at hubspawn is the pillar and content cluster model, where 233 00:16:41.740 --> 00:16:45.419 you have one sort of big central topic and then you have a bunch of 234 00:16:45.539 --> 00:16:49.850 clusters of topic after at around that. So let's say this is a great 235 00:16:49.889 --> 00:16:56.049 example why podcast work series, this is a topic, this is a definitely 236 00:16:56.090 --> 00:17:00.679 a central topic, and then you have several episodes around that topic that are 237 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:04.200 all feeding into it. Right, like people who lit, who might like 238 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.680 this episode, might go back and find another one. So I think when 239 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.000 people are going into the future and they're thinking about, okay, I want 240 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:17.630 to start a podcast, think about it in a like seasonal topic structure. 241 00:17:17.910 --> 00:17:21.509 For bad the show doesn't have to release on the feed that way, but 242 00:17:21.710 --> 00:17:23.910 like you want people to say, like this is a big topic we're going 243 00:17:23.950 --> 00:17:29.269 to cover. We want to have lots of little episodes with lots of titles 244 00:17:29.349 --> 00:17:32.740 that are that are tied to searches that we think people are going to have, 245 00:17:33.380 --> 00:17:37.500 and then we want all that content to be connected together in some way, 246 00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:42.180 either by a season or a theme or something along those lines. So 247 00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:47.410 you really want to think about the quantity of episode you're making, like you 248 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:52.170 want to make a lot of episodes that are going to be short and they're 249 00:17:52.170 --> 00:17:55.609 going to have and they're going to be connected to keywords that people are going 250 00:17:55.609 --> 00:17:57.720 to be searching for. But that then you don't want to do, is 251 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:03.079 you don't want to just totally skimp on production and make kind of a crappy 252 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.240 podcast, like if you make a grabbing bad guys, people are not going 253 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:08.880 to listen to it, they're not going to you're not going to get downloads 254 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.349 and people are not going to go to the next episode, and so one 255 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:17.470 of the things to think about is like how can I get a broad topic 256 00:18:17.829 --> 00:18:22.390 that's focused enough where I could build out a whole bunch of material and usefully 257 00:18:22.509 --> 00:18:26.460 answer people's questions and be very helpful? And how could I make a show 258 00:18:27.140 --> 00:18:32.140 that after somebody listens to one episode, they want to listen to another? 259 00:18:32.539 --> 00:18:34.460 So I think those are the two things you need to balance, both answering 260 00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:38.579 the questions and appearing in those search results as well as, on the other 261 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:45.490 side of things, actually making a decent show. Yeah, absolutely, things 262 00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:48.369 we are. We are advocates of, you know, developing a show that's 263 00:18:48.369 --> 00:18:52.769 going to last a while that people want to listen to. We've always leaned 264 00:18:52.849 --> 00:18:56.720 into on BB growth, short tactical episodes that we can get granular. You 265 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.640 know, when we talk about ABM, we kind of try to get beyond 266 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.960 the why and like let's get down to the how of starting or taking to 267 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.240 the next level or whatever. So the things you're saying or just things that 268 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.589 we think about all the time, and volume being important as well, because, 269 00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:17.309 you know, you tell leverage that searchability and also just leverage the serial 270 00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:21.549 nature of podcasting. Right, if they're hungry for more and you don't have 271 00:19:21.589 --> 00:19:25.900 anything else in your feed for a month. It's tough to build that audience 272 00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:30.700 over over time. As we wrap up here, Sam you mentioned something on 273 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.500 just, you know, another thing that brands can be thinking about in how 274 00:19:33.579 --> 00:19:37.259 they how they leverage to add spots, things like that. I think that 275 00:19:37.339 --> 00:19:40.930 would be interesting, a little bit tangentle the what we've been talking about here, 276 00:19:41.049 --> 00:19:44.890 but just something else as we close things out. Any other words for 277 00:19:45.769 --> 00:19:49.170 marketers, especially at be tob brands thinking about podcasting with all of these things 278 00:19:49.210 --> 00:19:53.240 we've been talking about? Yeah, I think that I talked to a lot 279 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.960 of, you know, small the medium companies who are looking to start a 280 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.519 podcast and I think one of the things that people struggle with is how do 281 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:06.039 I how do I make this like an asset right, like a valuable asset 282 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:10.710 that's going to last a long time, and one of the big ways that 283 00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:15.109 I think you can is by thinking about it through search, through Google search, 284 00:20:15.269 --> 00:20:18.390 things like that. The other thing that I think about is ads and 285 00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:22.619 like we don't need ads on a branded podcast, like it doesn't. You 286 00:20:22.660 --> 00:20:27.420 don't need them there, but they're useful in terms of breaking up an episode 287 00:20:27.779 --> 00:20:33.819 and they're useful to promote other services that the company might offer. So let's 288 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:37.849 like kind of think about it. As you have all of these listeners, 289 00:20:37.329 --> 00:20:41.970 how do you get all these listeners to hear another thing here, another product 290 00:20:41.970 --> 00:20:44.329 here, another service? Well, you can very you can run an ad 291 00:20:44.490 --> 00:20:47.650 like there's ads in the front of this podcast promoting other things that you guys 292 00:20:47.690 --> 00:20:51.839 are doing, which is really good, and I think that is helpful for 293 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.319 explaining to people who are thinking about starting a podcast why it's going to be 294 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.519 valuable long term. Like a blog post isn't just a blog post. A 295 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.759 blog post is also a place where you could put a call to action. 296 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.349 The blog post is what gets somebody in the call. The action is what 297 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:10.910 moves them down the funnel. In a branded show, a branded podcast, 298 00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:12.869 can basically get somebody to engage with your brand in a new way. It 299 00:21:12.950 --> 00:21:17.950 can increase brand affinity and you could use the ad space in it to all 300 00:21:17.950 --> 00:21:19.500 of a sudden, you know, promote a service, promote a free product, 301 00:21:19.539 --> 00:21:22.740 promote at a d or something like that. And for me, when 302 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:27.140 I step back and I look at the future and it's like you see the 303 00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:33.410 advent of dynamic ad insertion, which, if anybody's unfamiliar dynamic. Mcadd insertion 304 00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:37.450 is where you take basically you mark a moment in the podcast and then you 305 00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:41.250 say this is an ad, and then you could swap out ads across all 306 00:21:41.329 --> 00:21:44.849 of your podcast. So if we imagine a show like be to be growth, 307 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:48.119 like if you guys had been doing, you know, tagging every single 308 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.440 episode with an add, you probably get my guests would be like a large 309 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:56.799 chunk of your downloads come from your back catalog. Imagine if one day you 310 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.240 could just you have an event coming up, it's in San Francisco, you 311 00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:04.549 you say one ad for that event, you click a button and all of 312 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:10.670 a sudden it's distributed across hundreds of episodes. It's in front of thousands of 313 00:22:10.829 --> 00:22:14.829 thousands of people. Now, all of a sudden the podcast has gone from 314 00:22:15.190 --> 00:22:19.500 just this one time content play to like a full machine, and I think 315 00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:26.099 that a lot of people who are looking at podcasts now are a little bit 316 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:30.369 confused about how to get from I want to make a show to I want 317 00:22:30.369 --> 00:22:34.089 to make this part of my marketing strategy right and I think if people could 318 00:22:34.170 --> 00:22:40.410 see the value of podcast as evergreen content, if they could see it as 319 00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:45.920 a way to drive people towards, you know, new things, new services, 320 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.200 new products. It's going to have a lot more legs. It's going 321 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:52.799 to go a lot further. Brands are going to get a lot more value 322 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:55.440 out of it. So I'd say for people to look it, looking to 323 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:59.950 start podcast. Get out there, go start today a try and make some 324 00:23:00.069 --> 00:23:03.630 of your content on your own. It's not easy. It's got to be 325 00:23:03.710 --> 00:23:07.750 a struggle but like you can, you could do it and the opportunity is 326 00:23:07.910 --> 00:23:14.220 like really now and it's starting. It's only going to get harder. That's 327 00:23:14.339 --> 00:23:15.539 that's the big thing. I'd say. It's only going to get harder to 328 00:23:15.619 --> 00:23:18.819 get into this space. So it's better to invest to this kind of stuff 329 00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:22.980 in the beginning to take advantage of these kind of disproportion it rewards. I 330 00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:26.410 promise guys. I did not tea Sam up to do it that well, 331 00:23:26.529 --> 00:23:30.089 but he did it about as good as I could. And you spoke to 332 00:23:30.210 --> 00:23:33.369 some of the things. They're like. Back to the tactical examples of how 333 00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:37.730 we use our own podcast with a pre roll add spot for sweet fish. 334 00:23:37.130 --> 00:23:41.000 Oftentimes we're doing a call to action to subscribe to our email list. And 335 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.559 so you're exactly right. The podcast is not just this one thing. It 336 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:52.119 can feed other content, it can be part of your overall marketing machine and 337 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.430 feed other things and find this crossover. So I obviously totally agree with everything 338 00:23:56.470 --> 00:23:59.910 you're saying there. Sam. I love the way that you're breaking down, 339 00:24:00.269 --> 00:24:03.309 you know, some of the trends that you guys are seeing, explaining a 340 00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:07.670 little bit more about this, you know, looming thing coming with Google adding 341 00:24:07.710 --> 00:24:11.500 audio to search and and something that we should all be thinking about. You 342 00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:15.380 Know Gary v talks about you know he won on search and email because it 343 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:19.579 wasn't crowded yet when he was coming up. You guys have obviously done a 344 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:23.569 fantastic job of text over the years at hub spot, and so there are 345 00:24:23.730 --> 00:24:30.289 these moments in time where there's opportunity to kind of seize this opportunity before it 346 00:24:30.369 --> 00:24:33.490 gets too crowded, before it gets even harder, as you put it. 347 00:24:33.609 --> 00:24:37.089 So I love what you're saying here, Sam, and I appreciate you making 348 00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:40.519 some time for me today. Man, if anybody listening to this would like 349 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.680 to tune into some of the hub spot shows, weird work. Where can 350 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.680 they stay connected with you? Find some of the shows you're hosting and learn 351 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.279 more about what you guys are up to on your team. Yeah, so 352 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.670 I totally encourage everybody to come check out listen to an episode of weird work. 353 00:24:55.750 --> 00:24:59.029 You can find it on apple, podcast, spotify, wherever you listen, 354 00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:03.269 just type weird work and if you want to connect with us on social 355 00:25:03.269 --> 00:25:07.819 media, it's just weird work. Or me it's just sp Baalter at twitter 356 00:25:07.460 --> 00:25:11.059 or on twitter. So yeah, that's that's where you can get me. 357 00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:14.740 Please ask me any questions you have about podcast, any questions about starting things. 358 00:25:14.779 --> 00:25:18.339 Always happy to chat. Awesome, thanks, man, Sam, and 359 00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:21.380 a fantastic conversation. I appreciate it, man. Yeah, now, it's 360 00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:26.250 been great being on the show. We totally get it. We publish a 361 00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:29.890 ton of content on this podcast and it can be a lot to keep up 362 00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:33.329 with. That's why we've started the BOB growth big three, a no fluff 363 00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:37.839 email that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. 364 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:45.200 Sign up today at Sweet Phish Mediacom Big Three. That sweet fish Mediacom Big 365 00:25:45.519 --> Three