Transcript
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Hello and welcome to the BDB gross show.
Monthly Book Talk I'm Douglas Burnett,
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host of the marketing book Podcast,
where each week I published an
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interview with the author of a new
marketing or sales book to help Me and
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my listeners keep up with the latest
ideas and the quickly changing world of
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marketing and sales. And joining Me is
my friend James Muir, author of The
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Perfect Close. The Secret to Closing
Sales in this monthly episode of the
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GDP Growth show. We recap some of the
key ideas from the marketing and sales
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books recently featured on the
marketing book Podcasts, and I read
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every book featured on the marketing
book Podcasts. But James he's even more
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books than Ideo, and he listens to
every episode of the marketing book
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podcast. So I'm delighted that he
conjoined me and a lot of listeners ask
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us for book recommendations. So if
either of us can recommend any
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marketing or sales books or other
resource is for whatever situation you
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find yourself in or what you'd like to
learn more about, please feel free to
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connect with us on LinkedIn include a
message so we know you're not a spammer,
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and then we'll chat there with you, and
we'll do our best to get you pointed in
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the right direction. James, welcome
back to the B two b Grow Show book talk.
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Thank you, Douglas. You know, I read
every book and listen to every episode
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and I won't lie. You are on a roll when
it comes to guests. You have some
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phenomenal people on your show. I'm
very fortunate. Yeah, no doubt. No
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doubt in this episode of book talk,
we're going to talk about the flight.
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You said the four most recent books
featured on the marketing with Podcast,
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which are the practice shipping
creative work by none other than Seth
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Godden. Also Revenue Growth Engine. How
to Align Sales and Marketing to
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Accelerate Growth by Darryl Amy. We
also have interaction Field, the
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revolutionary New Weight to create
shared value for businesses, customers
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in society by Eric Yoke Installer and
finally, the six disciplines of agile
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marketing proven practices for more
effective marketing and better business
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results by Jim you'll on. Like I said,
Douglas Burnett is a marketing icon
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magnet for some reason, And so
opposites attract Yeah, you know,
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they're Ugo Well, So first up, we've
got the practice shipping creative work
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by marketing legends Seth Godin. So
tell us about your interview with Seth
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Godin. Seth Godin writes books that get
in my head like none other. In other
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words, he s so I mean, truly, he's got
a knack for it. He is so smart. And and
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I say that in a couple of ways. But one
of them is that he'll use 300 words
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when the rest of us would need 3000.
It's It's amazing, and I should also
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add He is a really classy guy. He's a
really very nice, very considerate,
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wonderful person. And he's so he's just
a nice as he is smart. And in this book
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he it's, you know, somewhat
philosophical. But it's really very
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effective. And and here's who the book
is for anyone that creates any kind of
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content, Really? So you could be ah,
singer. You could be a musician. You
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could be a blogger. You could be an
author, a podcaster, anyone that has to
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create anything, a painter on a
consistent basis. This is the book, and
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if you've been doing it for a while,
this is where the book is really
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resonates with you. And he talks about
these things that are like I say,
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really in my head. And he pierces a lot
of head trash that those of us who
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create content, you know, wrestle with
Yeah, and he talks about topics like
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the fact that skill is not the same as
talent and a lot of people who think
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they aren't talented. Actually, if they
just work on their skills, they're
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gonna be more successful. And another
one of the big concepts in the book is
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that a good process can lead to good
outcomes, but it doesn't guarantee them.
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And I'm sure when you heard that James
Muir, you probably thought of anyone
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who follows the sales process. So you
know, back to that notion of if you
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control the process and the output. If
you control your process, it can lead
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to the right things. But don't torture
yourself that they're not, but it's not
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always gonna work out. But if you have
a consistent approach to creating
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content or prospecting, good things
ultimately happened. And even in the
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interview, he said, You know, tomorrow
is like when I'm like maybe his 7000
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block post. He writes a block post
every day, and he said, Is tomorrow
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gonna be the most popular one I've ever
done? I don't know, but I showed up and
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I just keep going. One other thing that
he talks amongst many in the book is
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that there is no such thing as writer's
block. Yeah, yeah, and the funny thing
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about the book is that he explains thes
things, and I'm left with nowhere.
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There's no rebuttal. It's like, Oh,
yeah, I'm busted. You're right, you're
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absolutely right. A couple of the
things he talks about is that and again,
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this kind of relates to sales, but also
any kind of marketing content now he
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refers to is like shipping your work or
shipping your art. But he reminds you
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that it doesn't seek to create comfort.
You are seeking to create change, right,
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particularly a sales situation, and he
goes on to explain that change requires
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tension. You've got to create some
tension in the person who is receiving
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this work that you're creating, and, uh,
one of the things you mentioned is we
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commit to making people uncomfortable
in the short run, so we could be
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hospitable later. But if you're we're
all looking for some kind of change,
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you know, I'm sure you've seen it in
many books where people say anybody
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that's selling or marketing, we're all
in the business of some kind of change.
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You're asking people to do something
else. And another thing you know, again
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amongst many that were on this show, uh,
in the book is that when it comes to
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creating content and of course he
writes this and then I look back over
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the years and I realized, Gosh, she's
absolutely true Says you can produce
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Mawr then you know, if you are intent
on doing it for someone else on DSO,
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that's where if you could again take
yourself out of the equation, it's like
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with my podcast. I might have a book on
this show, and it might be something
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I'm already familiar with, but I'm
personally interested in seeing how
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they presented. But I also know that
just talking about that is gonna help a
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lot of people, and there's really
nothing better than knowing that you're
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helping people. So I thought I found
that interesting and one other thing
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that he had, I'll mention, and then we
could get to you. Is that on this one
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page? And I've got the book right here.
Page 1 50. He talks about intentional
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actions, and when you're creating
content, you're trying to be
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intentional. And he has thes six lines.
And I thought, You know, everyone who
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does a content plan or even a marketing
plan should get this carved in stone
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and just put it on the front every time.
And like number one, I'm going to read
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these number one. Determine who it's
for, learn what they believe, what they
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fear and what they want. Okay, so I
mean, just think about developing a
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product. Determine who it's for.
Product market Fit is one of the
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biggest failures of businesses. Yeah,
learn what they believe, what they fear
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and what they want. Number two. Be
prepared to describe the change you
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seek to make, at least to yourself. In
other words, articulate. What that
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changes is, you know, think about that
in marketing content or even if you
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know, again, if you're in sales, you're
trying to paint that picture of what
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the outcome could look like. And then
the number three is care enough to
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commit to making that change. So if you
understand what the changes and how
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that could benefit, people, commit to
it. Believe in it. And then number four
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is ship work that resonates with the
people. It's for again. It's not you.
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Yeah, and you may actually be creating
content for the wrong people. You may
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be selling to the wrong or trying to
sell to the wrong people. Number five.
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Once you know whom it's for and what
it's for, watch and learn to determine
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whether your intervention succeeded.
Basically illiterate. Pay attention. Uh,
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and, uh, number six Repeat. So it's a
very different type of book, but I was
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very excited Thio to read it and and
speak to him about it. Yeah, I think
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listeners might want to know that this
each chapter is a short, memorable
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nugget with antidotes that really stick
with you. I mean, nobody writes more
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concisely than Seth Godin does, so I
mean, he cuts right to the thick of it,
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which is why he could write such an
efficient book. And I That's by the way.
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Those are my favorite absolute favorite.
I Why spend an hour to tell me
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something you could tell me in 10
minutes, Right? It's like 100 notes
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over 200 chapters, but each one's
really, really short. Yeah, and they're
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considered. I mean, like, you could
just just one and then move on, right?
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I mean, they are if they are in
sections, but essentially each one kind
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of stands on its own. So I think it's
that makes it an easy read. You could
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just pick up, you know, when you have a
minute at the bus stop or whatever
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you're doing. And, yeah, and actually,
what I should have said, Every person
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who creates any kind of content, who's
any kind of creator. What his book does
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is shows you which ones are successful.
Another. There's a pattern to what
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they're doing. It's like any book
that's been I've read about creativity.
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It talks about how it's really not
about lightning in a bottle. It's a
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process that you follow and a set of
beliefs that make you really successful.
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Yeah, and of course, that ties right
back into the practice, which is it's
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not magic, right? You're not just
genetically born, creative or not
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creative, it's more about the effort of
the practice that, you know, I say this
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way, the harder I work, the luckier I
get. Right. So, yes, that's what he's
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saying, right? Just show up, right? In
fact, I think that his one take away
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was Get out of your own way and just
start wherever you're at. Don't get,
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you know, don't get all the arranging
getting I'm getting ready. I'm getting
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ready. I'm getting ready. Just start
wherever you are. Yeah, So much of the
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book talks about the fear. And as I
mentioned earlier, the head trash that
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we tell ourselves as to why we can't be
successful. Yeah, that's the main
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thrust of the book. Is is just
dismantling the miss around creative
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output and the keys just to get started
and develop the practice. Thus, the
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title of the book. And I really think
it's something that everyone can
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benefit from it. Even though, you know,
this was a marketing book podcast. I
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really think that I I was super
motivated by reading the book. Yeah, I
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feel very energizing so, uh, very broad
audience. I think it appreciate this
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book. Yeah, I found it very inspiring.
But you know what? He didn't create
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comfort. I think I think he created
change in my head. So there you go. A
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little short term. Well played, Mr Go.
Yeah, absolutely. And he's famous for
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that. So anyway, two thumbs up for me
on that book. That was awesome. Read
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and I'd recommend it to anyone. Next up,
we've got revenue growth engine. How to
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align sales and marketing to accelerate
growth by Darryl, Amy and full
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disclosure. Darryl, Amy and I are
friends, and I got to read an advanced
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version of this book, but he made it
even better. I wish. I think it's a
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version that you read. So tell us a
little bit about your interview with
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Darrelle Amy. Oh, well, yeah, I didn't
get advanced. Copy. He contact me after
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you got the improved version? Yes, The
James Muir new, improved version. Well,
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this book, of course. Anyone who
listens to the market with podcast
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knows that I like books that talk about
how to grow a business and revenue and
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aligning sales and marketing. So this
was like the perfect storm of my
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favorite topics. And I have had over
300 books on this show. And, you know,
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I get to pick the books. So they're all
really books I like. And, uh, but in
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their good books Yeah, I and I really,
really like this one. And I gotta
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explain why from a personal standpoint,
you know, agency owner helping
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companies This was the book that I
would have wanted to write, and maybe I
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still could. But people I would say, Oh,
you read these books. Why don't you
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write one? I say, Well, I'm too busy
reading them, but, you know, this is
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the one that got me so excited. And
here's why it got me excited. On a
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personal standpoint is the things that
he wrote about in the book. I knew
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every problem that he was describing
because I hadn't gone through it with a
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client. And in the book, he talks about
revenue and growing revenue, and he
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basically said there were two
epiphanies he had about growing revenue.
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One is the way to grow. Revenue is you
get more clients and then you sell more
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to your current clients. Okay, get mawr
and sell more to your current clients.
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And the second big epiphany of the book,
and this, and of his journey is that
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knowing who your ideal client is can
really accelerate growth. So, you know,
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he talks about how most companies only
focus on one of the two drivers, in
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other words, there either focusing on
just trying to get new customers or
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they're working really hard on cross
selling and selling to existing clients.
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But they're not doing the Net new, and
he's just as very rarely do companies
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do both. And so in the book he, as I
mentioned earlier, he talks about how
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knowing exactly who your ideal client
is, and from my perspective, too many
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companies don't do this where they
think about. All right, well, this is
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who are current clients are. But let's
think for a minute about who our best
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clients have ever been and dream for a
minute. About what if we got just a few
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more of those and I mean, you've
probably seen that where the or the
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worst. You know, I don't wanna limit
myself, so I want to sell. Yes, yes,
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but if you could just start to focus in
on who your ideal client would be,
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that's what you should be putting your
marketing and your sales outbound sales
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efforts on and the thing that he said
in the book that was somewhat
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controversial, he said. You don't need
leads if you already know who your
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ideal prospects are. Just I was just
shocked by him saying that. But of
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course it makes a lot of sense. And the
other thing is, one of the other things
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he talked about is everything. He talks
about his book. You can tell that he
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has perfected through the use of
workshops and actually working with
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clients on this. There's not a lot of
theory. So he talks about how you do in
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fact, need to think about the
experience that you're providing to
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your customers. You know, like, how are
you on boarding them? Are you having
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periodic business reviews and not
periodic business reviews, where you're
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talking about your new products and
services, but where you're figuring out
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what their actual goals are and seeing
if they're they're hitting them? And
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one of the other things that he talks
about, which is so super relevant to
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any kind of marketing and sales, is
that talking about your products and
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services first and foremost is
disastrous on he goes into detail
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explaining why that's such a bad idea.
Instead, the really successful
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companies talk about the outcomes that
customers are looking for, its simple
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principle to say. But Super, super,
super hard implement. Yeah, yeah,
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exactly, yeah, clients by because by
outcomes, they don't buy products. Yeah,
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they don't really care about your
products and services. They really
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don't even after their customers. They
don't care. They're interested in
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themselves. That drives some of the
strategy that he mentions in the book.
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That's why he says, You start on case
studies. There's all these things you
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want. People think that they should
start with. But he feels like you
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should be starting with the case
studies because that is documenting the
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outcomes. And that's what people are
really buying exactly. That's why he
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was saying that marketing people, one
of the most important things they
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should be doing is doing case studies.
Now. You want to do them correctly. It
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needs to be about the outcome your
customers were looking for and how you
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were able to help him. Now you see the
order I went there. The company wasn't
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first it was customers that yes, yes,
so it's and And in his book, every
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section, there are entire books written
about some of the key points that he
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talks about, you know, for greater
depth. But anyway, he just talked about
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how most marketing messages do not
begin with outcomes and related to
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sales. He explains that the job of
sales people is to bring latent needs
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to the surface to create felt needs. In
other words, not asking if they need
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more product helped them understand
they might be standing on an ant hill,
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and they don't even realize it. I mean,
this is stuff that I'm sure you're
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explaining to all your clients, uh,
every day, But it was just so nicely
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tied together, and it's not a you know.
It's not the longest book in the world,
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but it for me it was like, You know how
sculpture, you know, you just kind of
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remove the parts that don't need to be
there. Yeah, he was able to put it
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together. It's he's really got a He's a
very salient writer. He's telling you
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all the levers that you need to pull in
your business. He's keeping but not 100
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of them, he says. You just which ones?
And here's the best analogy is you know,
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the engine. So in other words, he's
explaining that if you have an engine
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in your car and let's say it's got four
cylinders or six and you're only
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operating, one of only one of the
cylinders is gonna work, it's not gonna
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get you very far. It's probably gonna
ruin the engine. So he's showing you
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the different cylinders that you need
to be. Just cylinders need to be
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focused on. Yeah, I'll need to be
firing right, And in that sense, it
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reminds me a little bit of last time
where we talked about J. Abrahams
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talking about all these different
strategies and then using them
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cumulatively can create exponential
growth. And that's kind of he gives you
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a little mathematical formula at the
beginning of the book that is an eye
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opener that you don't you know, for
people that think it's all about net
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new customers or people that think it's
all about cross selling, his point is
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really that it's about both, especially
if you identify your your ideal
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customer. Yes, one of the things you
mentioned the interview is that if
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you're focused on getting Net new
customers, it's, um, or linear growth
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trajectory. But when you are able to
sell more to your current customers,
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its's somewhat more exponential. Yeah,
in fact, that's that's just take away.
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It's for folks to change their mindset
about that, right? And I think if you
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surveyed most companies, they would
tell you that they're not top priority
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is finding new business when they
potentially was sitting on a goldmine
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with their existing clients that they
could cross. He calls it Cross selling
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Net new and cross selling us the terms.
Yeah, and there's been some books on
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the show about just selling more your
current customers. And it seems so
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counterintuitive to so many of the
companies that I talked to. And I was
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on a doing a webinar this year, and one
of the questions was about, you know,
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modern marketing was more sort of a
presentation for, like more senior
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people, just to kind of help them
understand the concepts, and it was
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based on a conversation I had with a
friend who became the CEO of a
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manufacturing company, he says. Doug,
what am I supposed to understand here?
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What can I ignore? What about what are
these people supposed to be doing for
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me? But it one of the people said, You
know, if you only had a dollar spend on
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marketing, what would you invested in?
And I said, Well, I wouldn't invest a
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nickel of it on getting any new
customers. I would first focus on the
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experience I'm providing to my
customers and determining if there's
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more that I could sell to them, because
it's much faster revenue. It's an
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easier sale. It's less risky for them.
Yeah, and what's may be related to that
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if you have, ah, minimum amount to
invest and where you're going to do it,
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it's understanding why your clients
really by right actually talk to
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customers. He talks about that right?
And we've heard that how many times,
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right? All of the most successful folks
do this, but yet it never It never gets
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old in terms of repeating, because so
many people violate that. One basic
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rule is this. Understand why you're
calling us really by and take the time
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to actually go out and talk to your
customers? Because, well, you already
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clients, right? How expensive is it to
go? Find out why they really bought it
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instead of Hey contrast in the book, he
says. You know, some people think it's
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all about the r. A. Y. That's what the
salesperson will tell you, why they
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bought. But when you go ask the
customer, they've come up with these
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really different stories about why they
actually bought. And those are the
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little pearls that you can use and
leverage in, You know, all of your
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messaging and in the face to face
dialogue. Yeah, he told a funny story
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about how he was helping a client years
ago with their case studies so he would
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go and talk to the customers. And I
think maybe the company he was working
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with, they didn't have a marketing
person. So he was helping out, and he
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would ask the sales guys. He talked to
them first, you know, to get get up to
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speed on who he was gonna be calling
and they would say would say, Why do
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you think they buy from? And they said,
Always save the money. They save the
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money. We're adding a lot of value. Got
a good prices and then he would go
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interview all these customers and they
would talk about anything else, All
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these other things they liked about him.
And he would say, uh that they never
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mentioned Price. There's were clearly
not important things to them, even
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though that's what all the sales guys
were saying. Uh, customer experience
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obviously relates to that, too. And
then there's a synergy there with
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customer experience, where it effects
your cross selling and referrals, which
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is a whole another. Probably the most
effective lead generation strategy.
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There is this. Just get clients. Just
send the other clients. Yeah, too many
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folks want, like a nisi button or a
silver bullet. And there's actually a
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handful of things that the fastest
growing companies are the most
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successful companies focus on in this
book shows it, I would say a implied
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throughout the entire book that we
haven't mentioned yet is a very it's
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very strong on repeatable process,
about about process. So if you're gonna
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you know, once you engage a customer,
we're going to do X many steps. I e
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mean and he applies that throughout the
entire book, not just the generation
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and all that. But let me add to that.
He talks about how a lot of your
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business departments follow processes
quite well. You know, HR, Finance,
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Accounting, production Service. But he
talked about how marketing and sales,
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unfortunately, they don't follow a
process much. It's like Just get me in
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the room with them and I'll sell to or
or they're not very effective often
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doing that. And he's saying, You know,
process isn't a bad thing. It's not
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like an all or nothing. But if you can
introduce more process to your
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marketing and sales, you will be more
successful. How funny is that There
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will be talking about alcohol marketing
here in a little bit. Right file feels
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right into that. So, yeah, here's one
take away, which I mentioned before is
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just to change your mindset about
growth. Realize that it's a it's both
315
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about net new and cross selling not
either or. And if you pay attention to
316
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both, then you'll get dramatic
increases. And then one thing he
317
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thought that listeners could go dio is
developed. A focused message. Right is
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your message really resonated with
clients in the best way to do that is
319
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to talk about the outcomes. But more
importantly, talk to your customers. So
320
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right, Yeah. Anyway, he's really like I
said, I love writers that can clearly
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communicate and right, just enough to
get the job done and no more. And this
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book is very practical in sailing it
that way. Honestly, I think what every
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salesperson, marketer and business
owner could benefit from reading this
324
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book. E would no doubt, Josh, what do
you think is the most irritating thing
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for B two B buyers right now, an Logan.
I love talking to you about this. You
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know that the number one challenge
right now is that many customer facing
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teams in the B two B space right now
are forcing their potential buyers, too,
328
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by the way that they want to sell.
Buyers don't wanna buy that way right
329
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now. They wanna, by the way they want
to buy. We need to enable those buyers.
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We call this buyer enablement at sales
reach. We need to enable those buyers
331
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to make better decisions quicker in a
comfortable environment that's more
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personalized for them to move forward
with that process. Dude, that's awesome.
333
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I couldn't agree more since I've been
using sales reach in my own sales
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process. It's allowed me to really
enable the buyer to move more quickly
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in really two ways. One, they don't
have to download a bunch of attachments.
336
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Aiken send them toe one page with the
proposal. Case studies Different
337
00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:34.440
resource is because, let's face it, the
proposal is just one part of the sales
338
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conversation and probably on Lee one
sales enablement piece of content that
339
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you're sending so it makes it easier on
them. And then the other thing is, you
340
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know, we're selling to our champions,
and then we're making them have to re
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give our pitch to the entire buying
committee. So one thing I do is put a
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custom 2 to 3 minute video on the top
of my sales reach page. This says, Hey,
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here's all the resource is tie it back
to the conversation. Here's the
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proposal. Let me know if you have any
questions, and it allows me to give a
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little bit of kind of a mini pitch to
the rest of the buying committee,
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introduce myself, which helps me build
trust and credibility and helps the
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buyer not have to repeat the entire
pitch from scratch. So if anybody is
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looking to do the same thing in their
own sales process, I'd highly suggest
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they reach out to you and the team over
its sales. Reach for anybody listening.
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Just go to sales reach dot io to talk
to Josh and the team. All right, well,
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next up, we've got the interaction
field, the revolutionary new way to
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create shared value for businesses,
customers in society By Eric Yocum,
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00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:39.080
Stahler and and this book offers a
different approach into the traditional
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value chain. The way we think of it, he
calls it interaction, fields and how
355
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companies can leverage that concept for
strategic growth. So tell us a little
356
00:24:46.370 --> 00:24:51.080
bit about your interview with Eric. Is
the Austrian, German German. Don't get
357
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those mixed up, those people fighting
with each other all the time. Careful s
358
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Oh, this was a really smart book, and
he's a really smart guy, PhD and all
359
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that sort of thing, and it probably
made me a little bit smarter, which is
360
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hard to do because you're so smart. No,
because I have so far to go. That's why,
361
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yeah, that's why you get all these
really smart authors just because
362
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they're clearly not threatened by the
host. More getting book podcast Just so
363
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there were, If I were smarter, I
wouldn't have to read so many books.
364
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There was a book, Gosh, what 20 years
ago called the Clue Train Manifesto,
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which was really oppression, what is
explained pretty much where everything
366
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went, where everything was going with
the Internet and just amazing. And the
367
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similarly Seth Godin, who we mentioned
earlier in 1999 he wrote this book
368
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called Permission Marketing. Yeah, and
I saw him speak at the inbound
369
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conference years later, and he joked
that he says I was there for the first
370
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inbound conference when I wrote this,
but it's the only one that knew it.
371
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Everything went to in the direction of
where he was saying it was going. This
372
00:25:54.520 --> 00:26:00.200
book may very likely be a similar thing
where this might not help you tomorrow
373
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with marketing and sales and that type
of thing, but it was just fascinating.
374
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It's the type of book I like to include
every once in a while. So he explains
375
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that there are, you know, there's the
value chain kind of company, which is
376
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the traditional where you have all the
different steps in the value chain and
377
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you're creating a product and you're
delivering. And that's been with us for,
378
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I guess, almost forever. And then he
talks about you know, there's other
379
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kinds of businesses like these
platforms, right, that come along in
380
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more recent years, like a Facebook or
an Amazon or uber that type of thing.
381
00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:40.320
Well, he quotes Mackenzie a study they
did that said about 30% of all global
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revenues in four years are gonna be
accounted for by interaction, field
383
00:26:45.770 --> 00:26:52.280
style ecosystems and you. It's a little
tricky to explain, but he says that
384
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rather than looking for transactions,
you're looking for interactions. And if
385
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you wanna build a company that is an
interaction field type company, I'll
386
00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:06.550
give you an example of something John
Deere is doing right now, he says. You
387
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have to design and build with these
three that these three elements have to
388
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:15.070
be there. Okay, so there's like a
nucleus of participants and then an
389
00:27:15.070 --> 00:27:20.590
ecosystem of partners, okay? And and
contributors and then a group of market
390
00:27:20.590 --> 00:27:25.200
makers that exert influence on the
field. So an example would be now John
391
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.390
Deere is a value chain company, but
they've ventured out into this
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00:27:28.390 --> 00:27:32.320
interaction field really successfully,
So it's not like they had to get rid of
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their old business. But basically they
the straw that stirs the drink and
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interaction field. It's all this data
that's being collected in this machine
395
00:27:40.100 --> 00:27:44.350
learning. Okay, so he talks about
examples of the book where there are
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platforms that are collecting data, but
they're not interaction field companies,
397
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:50.870
and they're probably gonna go away, and
they should be doing it the way he
398
00:27:50.870 --> 00:27:56.540
explains. So with John Deere, they have
this ability to you know how everything
399
00:27:56.540 --> 00:27:59.810
is connected, the Internet of things.
Almost everything is connected now,
400
00:27:59.810 --> 00:28:06.090
your fridge. You know, pretty soon,
yeah, maybe the chip in your dog so it
401
00:28:06.090 --> 00:28:09.580
could take your temperature or whatever,
but everything is is connected. Okay,
402
00:28:09.580 --> 00:28:13.540
so we're talking about all that, and
they've set up this separate division
403
00:28:13.540 --> 00:28:18.910
where they are getting their customers
John Deere customers, as well as people
404
00:28:18.910 --> 00:28:25.060
that have competitive brands, and they
are collecting data on their on in that
405
00:28:25.060 --> 00:28:29.860
case, their farm equipment, and they're
pumping in even more data. So they're
406
00:28:29.870 --> 00:28:36.380
starting to collect all this big data
about weather and geographic location
407
00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:40.720
of that particular tractor and exactly
what it is they're planting and how
408
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:45.350
deep their planting it and what day of
the year it is. So you're collecting
409
00:28:45.350 --> 00:28:47.570
all this data and then what happens is
410
00:28:48.840 --> 00:28:55.240
all that data gets shared. In other
words, there they're just not just with
411
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.780
John Deere, but with others. But in
other words, they're able to. So all
412
00:28:58.780 --> 00:29:02.610
the seed companies, for instance, are
able to look at that data and say, Oh,
413
00:29:02.620 --> 00:29:07.940
are products work better when they're
planted two inches down instead of one?
414
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:12.600
Or, you know, the fuel company or all
these people can look at all the shared
415
00:29:12.600 --> 00:29:17.530
data and start to figure out how they
can be more helpful. And so they're all
416
00:29:17.530 --> 00:29:22.540
sharing data with each other, and, you
know, it seems counterintuitive that
417
00:29:22.540 --> 00:29:25.360
you would want to do that. But he says
more and more companies are starting to
418
00:29:25.360 --> 00:29:31.300
share all this data in a more open
source way so that all the people in
419
00:29:31.300 --> 00:29:36.440
the ecosystem can benefit. And the last
part was about the market makers. And
420
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:40.420
that's where, for instance, like let's
say, the United States, there's a
421
00:29:40.420 --> 00:29:44.390
Department of Agriculture. Well, they
might really start promoting that
422
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.530
because that's really valuable data and
they would like it and they have a lot
423
00:29:48.530 --> 00:29:52.990
of sway legislatively. Or maybe there's
some other like, really big company
424
00:29:52.990 --> 00:29:57.000
that would buy into this. So those
three things start to create this
425
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:01.160
interaction field, and it was it kind
of blew my mind. I had no idea that
426
00:30:01.170 --> 00:30:05.150
this is so many companies are doing
this. And then I started to see how
427
00:30:05.150 --> 00:30:09.480
Mawr and more of these interaction
fields will probably start to start to
428
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:13.890
grow and proliferate. Yeah, I thought I
was. This is a mind expanding book.
429
00:30:13.900 --> 00:30:16.680
Like you said, it's one of those one
sort of at the early stage of a new
430
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.670
development that you think, Wow, you
know, 20 years from now we might be
431
00:30:20.670 --> 00:30:24.410
seeing how everyone does this, but his
you know, his take away is that years
432
00:30:24.410 --> 00:30:27.540
ago, this would only be possible for a
large company, right? There would be
433
00:30:27.540 --> 00:30:30.170
hard to do these kinds of things. But
now, with the technology that we have
434
00:30:30.170 --> 00:30:34.630
available to us, really, all companies
of all sizes can participate in these
435
00:30:34.630 --> 00:30:39.130
three parts of the strategy, which is
this nucleus of participants, you know,
436
00:30:39.130 --> 00:30:43.220
an ecosystem around that and then
engaging these market makers. And so
437
00:30:43.230 --> 00:30:47.200
the idea is just to synergistically
share this data that causes all the
438
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:52.190
players to grow, right? Yeah. I mean,
again, it seems counterintuitive. Like,
439
00:30:52.190 --> 00:30:54.830
why would we share this data? I mean,
you got to read the book that explains
440
00:30:54.830 --> 00:31:00.090
exactly how it works. And it was It
kind of rewired my business brain
441
00:31:00.090 --> 00:31:04.320
because I started to realize like, Oh,
and I see these examples. He talks
442
00:31:04.320 --> 00:31:08.970
about Alibaba's doing. He talks about
John Deere Una Steel Company in Germany
443
00:31:08.970 --> 00:31:14.020
and and on on fashion brands all this
type of thing. So it was very
444
00:31:14.020 --> 00:31:18.980
interesting, and I'm now kind of on the
look out for more examples of what I
445
00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:22.130
learned in the book. Yeah, me, too. I'm
going to read this book again, but I
446
00:31:22.130 --> 00:31:25.030
think anybody who's interested in sort
of knowing the latest cutting, most
447
00:31:25.030 --> 00:31:28.610
cutting edge, paradigm shifting
approach to business would really enjoy
448
00:31:28.610 --> 00:31:33.210
this book. Absolutely well said. All
right, we'll oust up. We've got the six
449
00:31:33.210 --> 00:31:36.950
disciplines of marketing proven
practices for more effective marketing
450
00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:41.420
and better business by Jim, you'll and
we have explored a number of books
451
00:31:41.420 --> 00:31:46.010
actually applying the agile methodology
to sales and marketing. And this book
452
00:31:46.010 --> 00:31:48.780
is essentially a handbook. So tell us a
little bit about your interview with
453
00:31:48.790 --> 00:31:53.530
Jim. Anyone that works in marketing,
who is not using an agile approach,
454
00:31:53.540 --> 00:31:57.420
don't think that this isn't for you,
because in the future, most marketing
455
00:31:57.420 --> 00:32:00.460
departments are gonna be following a
more agile approach if you're not
456
00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:04.420
getting okay. So it's I I joked at the
end of the interview and said, You know,
457
00:32:04.420 --> 00:32:07.710
it's kind of like content marketing in
the future, you're probably not gonna
458
00:32:07.710 --> 00:32:12.700
hear that. Term is much because it's
just big. Yeah, baked into marketing,
459
00:32:12.710 --> 00:32:18.740
So he, uh, it's beautifully written And
he explains. So, he explains, There's
460
00:32:18.740 --> 00:32:25.560
really six disciplines, as the title
implies, that are in agile marketing.
461
00:32:25.570 --> 00:32:31.680
Okay, and agile marketing enables you
to work smarter, work faster, be more
462
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:38.280
responsive and spoiler alert. It
actually helps to bake in sales and
463
00:32:38.280 --> 00:32:44.910
marketing alignment at a company. It's
like, Yeah, they kind of sneak it in.
464
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.620
So he talks about that In the beginning,
the book and I mentioned that just a
465
00:32:47.620 --> 00:32:53.520
second, but he also goes on to manage
expectations brilliantly by saying,
466
00:32:53.520 --> 00:32:59.990
Look, there's four shifts that have toe
happen shifts in beliefs and behaviors
467
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:07.280
in a company in necessary for agile to
even get off the ground. Okay, So don't
468
00:33:07.290 --> 00:33:11.840
don't start this unless you're gonna be
able to make these six these four
469
00:33:11.840 --> 00:33:15.740
shifts in the beginning, and I'm gonna
I'm gonna mention what they are. And,
470
00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:19.950
uh, the first one is a shift from a
focus on outputs to one based on
471
00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:24.860
outcomes. Wow. I sound like I'm
repeating myself in this episode, but
472
00:33:24.860 --> 00:33:29.640
that's really important for marketers.
You know, I meet so many marketing
473
00:33:29.650 --> 00:33:33.460
people and I've seen presentations like,
for instance, by marketing people to
474
00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:37.710
sales teams, and they're basically
talking about the outputs they're doing.
475
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:40.830
You know what I mean? What? We're gonna
do it? One email newsletter. We're
476
00:33:40.830 --> 00:33:43.430
gonna do four block posts and we're
gonna do this, and we're gonna do that
477
00:33:43.430 --> 00:33:49.300
in these main landing pages of these
videos. Stop that. Tie it toe outcomes,
478
00:33:49.310 --> 00:33:53.660
start with outcomes. What are the
outcomes that everyone's looking for?
479
00:33:53.670 --> 00:33:58.950
And again, if you ask, that question is
a marketer to your sales team. I mean,
480
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:05.060
I would like that if I were salesperson.
Amen. Amen On eso in this book as well
481
00:34:05.060 --> 00:34:08.150
as Andrea for Arrears, which is on the
show recently. They both talk about how
482
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:12.790
sales people like this agile stuff that
the marketing people are doing. The
483
00:34:12.790 --> 00:34:17.330
second one is a shift from campaign
mentality, which is, I think, holdover
484
00:34:17.330 --> 00:34:21.679
from the advertising days Ah, campaign
mentality to one based on continuous
485
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:25.260
improvement. And so instead of saying
what we're gonna do, this big burst of
486
00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:30.739
activity No, no, no. Let's let's take
it back to the outcomes we want, okay?
487
00:34:30.750 --> 00:34:34.900
And then just continue to iterate and
test and just get better and better and
488
00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:40.500
better at trying to achieve these
outcomes. The third one is a shift from
489
00:34:40.510 --> 00:34:47.830
an internal focus to a customer focus,
which I mean, if you only do that,
490
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.100
you'll be successful in marketing.
You'll be successful in sales. You'll
491
00:34:52.110 --> 00:34:57.110
you'll be successful. But he explains
why most companies air internally
492
00:34:57.110 --> 00:35:01.300
focused and, you know, observation, not
a criticism. But he shows you that if
493
00:35:01.300 --> 00:35:03.750
you don't have the focus on your
customer, you're really not going to
494
00:35:03.750 --> 00:35:08.220
get square one. And the last one is a
shift and this is the hardest one for
495
00:35:08.220 --> 00:35:13.390
businesses. Ah, shift from top down to
decentralize decision making. It
496
00:35:13.390 --> 00:35:16.910
doesn't really work if you can't start
to do more of that and more and more
497
00:35:16.910 --> 00:35:22.060
copies. Okay, so the six disciplines
are aligning the team on common goals,
498
00:35:22.540 --> 00:35:26.710
you know? So let me back up those first
four things, even if you don't end up
499
00:35:26.720 --> 00:35:30.370
going toe agile, if your company can
start to focus on those four things,
500
00:35:30.380 --> 00:35:35.690
you're gonna be successful. I guarantee
it or your money back. But the six
501
00:35:35.690 --> 00:35:38.520
disciplines are aligning the team on
common goals. And there's quite a bit
502
00:35:38.520 --> 00:35:42.580
about about doing that, structuring the
team for greater efficiency,
503
00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:47.360
implementing processes like scrum and
can ban and marketing which this, you
504
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:50.010
know, inside baseball terms. But people
that work in marketing are familiar
505
00:35:50.010 --> 00:35:56.420
with those validated learning which is
getting data from your marketing
506
00:35:56.420 --> 00:36:00.960
practices and measuring so that you can
prove what works, what doesn't work.
507
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.780
And some things aren't gonna work. And
that's okay. But stop with the opinions
508
00:36:04.790 --> 00:36:09.120
and the opinion of the highest paid
person in the room. And the 5th and 6th
509
00:36:09.120 --> 00:36:13.490
are adapting to change, which is really
hard, but he chose You know how toe how
510
00:36:13.490 --> 00:36:18.420
to think about that and then the sixth
one, which is really so important. And
511
00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:21.050
yes, we're talking about agile
marketing, but it's creating a
512
00:36:21.050 --> 00:36:25.340
remarkable customer experiences. So we
talked about in that in Daryl Amy's
513
00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:30.690
book. But of these 61 of them is about
creating a remarkable customer
514
00:36:30.690 --> 00:36:33.680
experiences. You know, it's it's one of
those things where I just keep getting
515
00:36:33.680 --> 00:36:38.490
on my soapbox, saying, You know, uh to
quote roughly Maya Angelou, she said.
516
00:36:38.490 --> 00:36:40.920
People will forget what you said.
People will forget what you did, but
517
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:45.580
they'll never forget how you made them
feel. And customer experiences are why
518
00:36:45.580 --> 00:36:52.100
people are buying things now. So I'll
step down and let you talk that Z
519
00:36:52.110 --> 00:36:55.800
encapsulates much of us, but it's very
practical. He's explaining a lot of
520
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.990
things in each of these different
sections. So it's you got to get the
521
00:36:58.990 --> 00:37:04.310
whole book to get all the details about
how apply agile Thio marketing. But I
522
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:08.190
think it's phenomenal workbook. His
take away here was to know the
523
00:37:08.190 --> 00:37:11.920
differences between those two things.
The disciplines are skills and the
524
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:16.210
shifts are essentially paradigm shifts
right, And and he said, What you just
525
00:37:16.210 --> 00:37:19.540
said is that organizations can get a
lot of success, even if you just did
526
00:37:19.540 --> 00:37:23.010
nothing more than work on the four
paradigm shifts, right? Yes. And the
527
00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:26.020
thing he thought that listeners could
do is just to start with Number one on
528
00:37:26.020 --> 00:37:29.410
the disciplines, which is alignment.
And if your marketing go to your sales
529
00:37:29.410 --> 00:37:32.020
team and have a conversation with them
and just say, Hey, what's working?
530
00:37:32.030 --> 00:37:35.410
What's really working? He said. You'd
be surprised what you know. They will
531
00:37:35.410 --> 00:37:38.910
light up because they never talk. E
mean, you've been in sales for your
532
00:37:38.910 --> 00:37:41.590
career. Did you have a lot of marketing
people come to you and ask you that?
533
00:37:41.600 --> 00:37:45.280
Onley the new ones, like if you ever If
you got if you got inserted into the
534
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:48.580
process where it was already
established, they were never talking to
535
00:37:48.580 --> 00:37:51.940
each other. But if you had turnover in
the marketing department, usually a
536
00:37:51.940 --> 00:37:54.820
fresh person would come in and say, All
right, well, tell us what you know. So
537
00:37:54.830 --> 00:37:57.850
it's something about starting new that
causes them just to think All right,
538
00:37:57.850 --> 00:38:00.510
well, let's go see what's actually
working so we can double down on that
539
00:38:00.520 --> 00:38:03.520
because they may have come from a
different industry. But I would say,
540
00:38:03.530 --> 00:38:10.300
Yeah, well, it's the exception, though,
right? S o E. It's definitely 80 20 on
541
00:38:10.300 --> 00:38:13.990
that. Most people are just They think
that their genius, right? And I don't
542
00:38:13.990 --> 00:38:18.190
know if that's the case, but ah, big
peppy for of most salespeople is that
543
00:38:18.190 --> 00:38:21.400
the marketing people actually don't
understand. Not only do they not only
544
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:23.640
understand sales, they don't actually
understand what the customers were
545
00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:27.400
really doing, and so that ends up
creating all kinds of copy that is very,
546
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:31.810
very bland, right, with a lot of
superlatives in it. And that is just
547
00:38:31.820 --> 00:38:36.290
like customers hate reading it too,
because it means nothing, right? Yeah,
548
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:40.350
it's robust this and, you know, world
class that and you're like, What does
549
00:38:40.350 --> 00:38:44.230
that even mean? Well, yeah, Let me add
to that with some research. There was a
550
00:38:44.230 --> 00:38:51.500
serious decision study ah, couple years
ago, and they determined that 60 to 70%
551
00:38:51.500 --> 00:38:56.250
of the content that marketing is
creating is never being used at all.
552
00:38:56.620 --> 00:39:04.260
And the reason why is because of a lack
of customer insights. Yeah, well, I
553
00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:07.920
think the problem I can give you the
flip of that. 30 to 40% of sales person
554
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.580
time is recreating marketing materials,
which to drive marketing people,
555
00:39:11.580 --> 00:39:14.950
bananas. So if you would just get
talking to each other, you wouldn't.
556
00:39:14.950 --> 00:39:17.870
Sales people would have to waste so
much time recreating their power points
557
00:39:17.870 --> 00:39:22.790
because, you know, we'd all be on the
same page. Yeah, Yeah, it's so thes.
558
00:39:22.790 --> 00:39:27.740
Concepts were telling. Here are easy to
say, but they are really hard for
559
00:39:27.740 --> 00:39:30.860
companies to do. And if you're
experiencing some of those frustrations,
560
00:39:30.870 --> 00:39:37.940
you're not alone. Turning into a
support group 12 steps, step one by
561
00:39:37.940 --> 00:39:42.340
agile marketing. Yeah. No, this is I
really enjoyed this book, and I really
562
00:39:42.350 --> 00:39:46.600
it seems like the wisdom of agile that
methodology is just working its way
563
00:39:46.600 --> 00:39:49.940
into literally every industry in every
discipline. I mean, it works. I've seen
564
00:39:49.940 --> 00:39:53.810
it up close and personal, and I think
it inevitably will be the norm across
565
00:39:53.810 --> 00:39:57.780
all industries. Marketing and sales
included. And so I think this is a
566
00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:00.610
phenomenal approach, and this is an
excellent handbook on how to apply it
567
00:40:00.620 --> 00:40:06.050
to marketing. All right, well, that is
it. Uh, this most books were all
568
00:40:06.050 --> 00:40:09.230
phenomenal as usual. I loved all four
of them. So tell us what new books
569
00:40:09.230 --> 00:40:12.940
we've got coming up on the marketing
book Podcast. We've got Form or the
570
00:40:12.940 --> 00:40:17.190
visual Sale. How to use video to
Explode. Sales Drive Marketing and Grow
571
00:40:17.190 --> 00:40:21.990
Your Business in a Virtual World by
Marcus Sheridan and Tyler Lassard. The
572
00:40:21.990 --> 00:40:26.690
expansion Sale for Must Win
Conversations to Keep and Grow Your
573
00:40:26.690 --> 00:40:32.690
Customers, by Eric Peterson and Tim
Raced ER Unfiltered Marketing. Five.
574
00:40:32.690 --> 00:40:36.700
Rules to Win Back Trust, Credibility
and Customers in a Digitally Distracted
575
00:40:36.700 --> 00:40:42.490
World by Stephen Denny and Paul Line.
Burger and the Influencer Code. How to
576
00:40:42.500 --> 00:40:48.170
Unlock the Power of Influencer
Marketing by Amanda Russell And That's
577
00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:50.990
it for this month's B two b growth show
book. Talk to learn more about the
578
00:40:50.990 --> 00:40:54.720
marketing book podcast, visit marketing
book podcast dot com and to learn more
579
00:40:54.720 --> 00:41:00.090
about James and his excellent book, The
Perfect Close Visit pure mirror dot com.
580
00:41:00.090 --> 00:41:07.470
That's spelled P u r e m u i r dot com.
And as I mentioned earlier, if either
581
00:41:07.470 --> 00:41:10.860
of us could recommend a specific sales
or marketing book or other resource for
582
00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:14.680
whatever situation you find yourself in,
connect with us unlinked in please
583
00:41:14.680 --> 00:41:19.930
include a message where we can chat and
we'll do. I'm getting a lot of these
584
00:41:19.940 --> 00:41:24.260
messages from people on linked in, and
they're just I think there it's it's a
585
00:41:24.260 --> 00:41:28.070
machine that's sending me all these
things So I've kind of had to trail off.
586
00:41:28.070 --> 00:41:33.620
Unless I think it's a living supplies
we can detect robots. Yes, yes, connect
587
00:41:33.620 --> 00:41:36.830
with us on LinkedIn because it really
is nice to be able to chat there and
588
00:41:36.830 --> 00:41:39.890
answer questions and doesn't take much
time. It's kind of the most fun thing
589
00:41:39.890 --> 00:41:43.050
we get to Dio on. We'll do our best to
get you point in the right direction,
590
00:41:43.050 --> 00:41:46.720
maybe save you some time, give a little
inspiration. And remember what the late
591
00:41:46.730 --> 00:41:52.540
Jim Rohn said. Formal education will
make you a living. Self education will
592
00:41:52.540 --> 00:41:54.150
make you a fortune.
593
00:41:58.410 --> 00:42:02.070
One of the things we've learned about
podcast audience growth is that word of
594
00:42:02.070 --> 00:42:06.510
mouth works. It works really, really
well, actually. So if you love this
595
00:42:06.510 --> 00:42:10.660
show, it would be awesome if you texted
a friend to tell them about it. And if
596
00:42:10.660 --> 00:42:14.980
you send me a text with a screenshot of
the text you sent to your friend meta.
597
00:42:14.990 --> 00:42:18.640
I know. I'll send you a copy of my book.
Content based networking. How to
598
00:42:18.650 --> 00:42:22.080
instantly connect with anyone you want
to know. My cell phone number is
599
00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:28.230
4074903328 Happy texting.