Increase Sales by Leveraging Transparency

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.540 --> 00:00:11.870 Welcome to the BdB Growth show on the Revenue series. I'm your host, Jon 2 00:00:11.870 --> 00:00:17.730 crispin, founder and sales coach at Early Revenue Today, I am so pleased to 3 00:00:17.730 --> 00:00:22.980 be here with Todd Caponi, Welcome Todd. It is so good to talk to you again, 4 00:00:22.980 --> 00:00:28.240 it's so good to be on and I think I was on the show like before the book came 5 00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:34.150 out like 2.5 years ago and I was nervous and it was like who knew what 6 00:00:34.150 --> 00:00:36.730 we were getting into and it's just, it's so great to be back. This is 7 00:00:36.730 --> 00:00:44.490 awesome. Yeah, so just amazing list of accomplishments that really validate 8 00:00:44.500 --> 00:00:49.470 the work you've been doing, my goodness, chief Revenue Officer at Power Reviews, 9 00:00:49.470 --> 00:00:54.360 you've been sales leader at Salesforce and exact target a sales leader, S A. P, 10 00:00:54.370 --> 00:01:01.210 so a great foundation and and of course you are now the author of the very 11 00:01:01.210 --> 00:01:07.620 successful transparency sale book, which is a best seller. Uh it's one of 12 00:01:07.620 --> 00:01:11.270 my favorite books, it's one of those that I recommend to others. And you 13 00:01:11.270 --> 00:01:15.450 know, I tend, when I talk about todd funny, I tend to refer to you as the 14 00:01:15.450 --> 00:01:21.480 mad scientist of sales. Yeah. If there's no one better that bring, 15 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:26.480 there's no one else out there that is not only combining science with selling 16 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:31.000 but has the research and the data to back it up. That's what I really like 17 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:35.850 about your approach. So anyway, Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And there's 18 00:01:35.850 --> 00:01:39.610 the other nursery that I don't know if we've ever talked about but I on the 19 00:01:39.610 --> 00:01:44.530 weekends my hobby is sales history. So I have a collection of books from the 20 00:01:44.530 --> 00:01:50.440 early 20th century on all things sales. This one's a 1916 book, the art and 21 00:01:50.440 --> 00:01:54.350 science of selling. I wish you could smell it like it smells like Grandma's 22 00:01:54.350 --> 00:02:00.670 basement but it's awesome. So very cool. So let's, so let's level set here. So 23 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:05.730 our guests are typically Ceos revenue leaders and venture firms. And our goal 24 00:02:05.800 --> 00:02:10.250 is to share with early stage tech founders, our audience and their sales 25 00:02:10.250 --> 00:02:15.750 leaders Insights and best practices on two topics that are top of mind for 26 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:20.750 most leaders the how twos of growing early stage sales, right and 27 00:02:20.750 --> 00:02:25.690 fundraising. So again, thanks for being here. Let's just start off just for a 28 00:02:25.690 --> 00:02:31.840 second maybe. Imagine who we're talking to 1000 hungry, eager first time 29 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:37.120 founders. They've got a good product, they've got a dozen or so winds, they 30 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:41.840 found product market fit if they're really close to it and they are founder 31 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:45.890 led selling now. So maybe this is their first foray into selling or maybe 32 00:02:45.890 --> 00:02:49.520 they're considering hiring of sales leader and they've got a couple million 33 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:54.190 in a. R. R. So we're just looking for sort of the best of the best from todd 34 00:02:54.190 --> 00:02:57.580 component, what advice can you give them? And let's just let's start off 35 00:02:57.580 --> 00:03:02.390 with maybe how you came up with the idea for transparency sale. And then 36 00:03:02.390 --> 00:03:05.800 let's touch on certain topics that I'll bring up for you. Let's let's I'm gonna 37 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:09.900 let you take it away on how you came to transparency sale. Well, yeah, so 38 00:03:09.910 --> 00:03:14.290 that's such a good setup too because you know, I work with a bunch of early 39 00:03:14.290 --> 00:03:19.140 stage founders, at least I did pre pandemic through my work with a company 40 00:03:19.140 --> 00:03:22.580 in Chicago called Venture scale. And one of the things that happens with 41 00:03:22.580 --> 00:03:27.730 these early stage founders, especially when their products experts is they get 42 00:03:27.730 --> 00:03:30.760 to this point where they're like, all right now I have to go sell this thing, 43 00:03:31.340 --> 00:03:35.300 do I need to go buy a plaid jacket and get some gold chains and like unbutton 44 00:03:35.300 --> 00:03:39.610 the first couple of buttons, like is that sales And like let's take it easy 45 00:03:39.610 --> 00:03:44.890 and let's talk a little bit about this idea of being a human being and being 46 00:03:44.890 --> 00:03:50.180 transparent. And so but the story that the short story is you mentioned that I 47 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:54.220 was the chief revenue officer of a company called Power Reviews here in 48 00:03:54.220 --> 00:03:57.570 Chicago. And you can probably guess that the company was in the review 49 00:03:57.570 --> 00:04:01.270 space, right? It helps retailers and brands collect and display ratings and 50 00:04:01.270 --> 00:04:05.840 reviews on their website. Well what happened was we did a research study 51 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:10.140 that was just looking at consumer behavior when a website is acting as a 52 00:04:10.140 --> 00:04:15.230 salesperson like a typical e commerce site. What do human beings do? Like how 53 00:04:15.230 --> 00:04:19.130 do they decide? How do they engage, Where are they drawn? And there was 54 00:04:19.130 --> 00:04:24.000 three data points that came out of it, two of which literally changed my whole 55 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.110 life. Like I know that's crazy, but that's what happened. The first one 56 00:04:28.110 --> 00:04:31.990 didn't change my whole life because it was no surprise We all read reviews 57 00:04:31.990 --> 00:04:37.180 today, 96% of us will read a review before we buy something we haven't 58 00:04:37.180 --> 00:04:41.200 bought before. That's a medium to high consideration, meaning not a pack of 59 00:04:41.200 --> 00:04:46.050 gum but something that matters. But the two that blew my mind. Number one, 60 00:04:46.740 --> 00:04:52.440 82-85% of us. Somewhere in that range Go to the Negative Reviews 1st. So 61 00:04:52.440 --> 00:04:56.330 again, when a websites acting as a salesperson were drawn to the negatives 62 00:04:56.330 --> 00:05:00.470 first, which I thought was, that's interesting. Like we skipped the fives 63 00:05:00.470 --> 00:05:03.950 and go right to the forest threes, twos and ones. I'm like, okay, that's 64 00:05:03.950 --> 00:05:09.530 interesting. But then the third one was the one that really set me off and it 65 00:05:09.530 --> 00:05:16.130 was this idea that A product on a five star scale when it has an average 66 00:05:16.130 --> 00:05:19.360 review score between a 42 and a 45 67 00:05:20.440 --> 00:05:23.980 that is optimal for purchase conversion, meaning a product that has negative 68 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:28.700 reviews. A 42 will sell at a higher conversion rate than a product that's 69 00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:33.050 got nothing but five star reviews. And I looked at that thought, all right, 70 00:05:33.540 --> 00:05:38.170 that's when a human being is left to their own devices and a websites acting 71 00:05:38.170 --> 00:05:43.710 as the salesperson. Does this equate down to be to be or human to human 72 00:05:43.710 --> 00:05:47.180 selling like does leading with negatives, Does that imperfection 73 00:05:47.180 --> 00:05:51.310 actually help us sell? And you mentioned me being a behavioral and 74 00:05:51.310 --> 00:05:56.770 decision science nerd. Everything I saw was supporting this argument that if we 75 00:05:56.770 --> 00:06:00.910 just come in and we embrace the things that maybe we're falling short on, 76 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:04.270 we're not good at something. A competitor is better, a situation that 77 00:06:04.270 --> 00:06:08.860 had happened that's easily accessible to anybody who's doing research on us 78 00:06:09.440 --> 00:06:14.300 with that sell better. And the first time I tried it, It was freaking magic. 79 00:06:14.310 --> 00:06:19.350 Like literally the guy showed me his budget. I've never never even seen a 80 00:06:19.350 --> 00:06:23.500 buyer's budget before. He did it the first time the sale cycle, that was 81 00:06:23.500 --> 00:06:27.310 normally six months, they made a decision in 10 days and then of course, 82 00:06:27.310 --> 00:06:31.390 we spent four weeks on contracts, which sucks. But like the first couple of 83 00:06:31.390 --> 00:06:37.240 times I tried it. Sale cycle shrink win rates went up partially because we were 84 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.390 working on deals that we should win. We're doing a better job of qualifying 85 00:06:40.390 --> 00:06:46.600 him, but partly because we're qualifying out faster. Bye exposing the 86 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:50.710 reasons why somebody wouldn't buy and we could then spend our time and the 87 00:06:50.710 --> 00:06:53.770 opportunities we should win. And then the fun part is we made it really hard 88 00:06:53.770 --> 00:06:56.310 on our competitors because they couldn't really position against us 89 00:06:56.310 --> 00:07:01.710 anymore. So to circle that all back around, you know, for you leaders, 90 00:07:01.710 --> 00:07:05.740 you're starting up, you're getting the company going, you're building up. I 91 00:07:05.740 --> 00:07:10.520 think there's a really big opportunity for you to not only build trust, but it 92 00:07:10.520 --> 00:07:14.580 feels better to be an honest human being is to lead with where you are as 93 00:07:14.580 --> 00:07:18.040 a company and what the flaws are. But you don't need a plaid jacket, you 94 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:22.500 don't need gold chains. You know, joanie salesperson, you don't need to 95 00:07:22.500 --> 00:07:27.390 be, you don't know what to wear. A leisure suit. You don't need it exactly, 96 00:07:27.400 --> 00:07:31.470 although leisure suits to look pretty good. So, uh, if you want to wear one, 97 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:35.120 you're welcome to it. But don't wear one to be a good salesperson. Where the 98 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:38.990 powder blue with the colorado. To here with the bell bottom and the white 99 00:07:38.990 --> 00:07:43.190 shoes. Right. Yeah, exactly. Either unbuttoned halfway down or the floss. 100 00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:49.620 So what whatever flurry that that looks fantastic. That works for some people. 101 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:56.540 Yeah, not so much for me. I'm italian, nobody needs to see that. So am I. I 102 00:07:56.540 --> 00:08:01.760 don't I don't need any any more of that kind of connotation. Alright, yeah, I 103 00:08:01.760 --> 00:08:07.760 have family members that have the rings and the chains and uh yeah, well let's 104 00:08:07.760 --> 00:08:10.610 so let's talk about messaging since you've got early stage founders that 105 00:08:10.610 --> 00:08:14.660 are thinking about this. One of the things that people care about early on, 106 00:08:14.660 --> 00:08:17.870 right, when you're trying to generate awareness and you're trying to educate 107 00:08:17.880 --> 00:08:23.570 is messaging, right? You are a big fan of talking about the limbic brain and 108 00:08:23.570 --> 00:08:28.360 how we need to get involved, get emotions evolved in sales, I'll let you 109 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:32.330 take it. Yeah, I mean there's a neuroscientist that threaten some 110 00:08:32.330 --> 00:08:36.970 amazing books. It seems Antonio Damasio and he's got a quote that really stuck 111 00:08:36.970 --> 00:08:42.659 with me and it's we are not thinking machines that feel we are feeling 112 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:43.760 machines that think. 113 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:48.610 And what that means is that decisions are really kicked off in the feeling 114 00:08:48.610 --> 00:08:52.390 center of our brain, which you mentioned is the limbic right which we 115 00:08:52.390 --> 00:08:57.730 make these feeling decisions and it's not love and hate like feeling are 116 00:08:57.740 --> 00:09:03.880 things like your ability to get feedback and validation and recognition 117 00:09:03.880 --> 00:09:08.700 for buying something, your ability to predict and forecast what your 118 00:09:08.710 --> 00:09:14.330 experience is going to be like with the solution, the freedom and autonomy and 119 00:09:14.330 --> 00:09:19.680 control that you get as a result of buying whatever you're going to buy the 120 00:09:19.690 --> 00:09:25.220 what I call family. But it's really fitting in our other people like me 121 00:09:25.220 --> 00:09:30.480 doing this, their relatedness. There's also the function or mission or purpose 122 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:34.780 and I'm I'll buy something because it feels makes me feel good that I'm 123 00:09:34.780 --> 00:09:39.480 helping somebody out. And the thing I didn't mention was the money, right? 124 00:09:39.490 --> 00:09:43.940 Fairness is a feeling. Is the juice going to be worth the squeeze is the 125 00:09:43.950 --> 00:09:49.030 output of my resource, my dollars, my time, my energy going to be worth the 126 00:09:49.030 --> 00:09:53.980 reward that I get from it. Those those are the things that trigger a decision 127 00:09:53.990 --> 00:09:58.360 in the human brain. It's the feelings and then we use logic to back it up. 128 00:09:59.140 --> 00:10:02.910 All right. So when we talk about the limbic, I mentioned this thing called 129 00:10:02.910 --> 00:10:06.650 the limbic filter and I think I actually stole that from somebody else. 130 00:10:06.650 --> 00:10:12.790 But anyway, it's when we come across a salesperson, we know that perfection 131 00:10:12.800 --> 00:10:17.030 isn't reality. Like subconsciously we know it. It's not like I was born to 132 00:10:17.030 --> 00:10:21.200 believe that, you know, like subconsciously we know that there's 133 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:26.470 pros and cons to everything and when a salesperson comes to us And is 134 00:10:26.470 --> 00:10:29.060 presenting our solutions as though they're a perfect 50 135 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:36.220 A Our brain wants the negative first. Remember the 82 to 85% and be our brain 136 00:10:36.220 --> 00:10:40.770 doesn't decide unless we can see the negatives which are that 42 to 45 right? 137 00:10:40.770 --> 00:10:46.890 That ability to understand what am I giving up to get the goodness? And so 138 00:10:46.900 --> 00:10:50.650 that leading with transparency and embracing your imperfections, it 139 00:10:50.650 --> 00:10:55.200 disarms that limbic filter. It builds trust right under the get go. And it 140 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:59.970 allows the brain to predict which allows the brain to come to a decision 141 00:10:59.970 --> 00:11:04.350 much faster. Either with you or against you, right? And that's that's our job, 142 00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:09.410 help the customer through this process of making the best decision for them, 143 00:11:09.410 --> 00:11:15.350 whether it's for you or against you as quickly as possible. So all of this, 144 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:22.460 since you're talking about the, the emotions presentations are used a ton 145 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:30.130 in selling. And I think you have a perspective on how to present 146 00:11:30.140 --> 00:11:36.170 effectively one to create an emotional attachment, but also to make a little 147 00:11:36.170 --> 00:11:39.710 bit easier for the brains out there that are listening and watching your 148 00:11:39.710 --> 00:11:40.450 presentation. 149 00:11:42.040 --> 00:11:47.580 Yeah. So you think I have an opinion on that, huh? Like this has been, I've 150 00:11:47.580 --> 00:11:51.180 been, I've become so passionate about my opinion on this. I don't know what 151 00:11:51.180 --> 00:11:56.190 happened, but the traditional like somebody at some point decided, hey, 152 00:11:56.190 --> 00:12:01.230 when we go into a room, we should just throw up all over people. We slide one 153 00:12:01.230 --> 00:12:04.390 on every presentation should be a mission statement. We believe in a 154 00:12:04.390 --> 00:12:09.740 world of whatever we're selling slide to should always be our awards or 155 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:13.080 recognition from analysts like Forrester as it's up in the top right 156 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:17.610 quadrant. We won this award three years ago. Cool slide three should always be 157 00:12:17.610 --> 00:12:21.850 a map of our locations, Like we've got one in Singapore. I know you don't, but 158 00:12:21.850 --> 00:12:25.620 we think it's cool. Slide four should always be your products and then you 159 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:29.670 should always circle it and right solution above it because they're not 160 00:12:29.670 --> 00:12:33.170 just products, it's a solution. And then slide five should always be your 161 00:12:33.170 --> 00:12:39.190 logo, slider, your nascar's life, like whoever decided that every marketer has 162 00:12:39.190 --> 00:12:43.200 decided, Yeah, that's what we're gonna do two. And the funny thing is the 163 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:49.210 behavioral science tells us Every one of those elements runs 180° from how 164 00:12:49.210 --> 00:12:55.870 our brains engage and how an audience decides. Like those slides are 165 00:12:55.870 --> 00:13:00.470 literally taking consensus buyers who already have it tough and now it's 166 00:13:00.470 --> 00:13:03.660 tougher because they're all remote so they don't get to just run into people 167 00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:06.890 and informally talk in the hallway, you're literally pushing them to your 168 00:13:06.890 --> 00:13:08.760 corners and let me tell you why. 169 00:13:09.940 --> 00:13:15.730 Well, first of all, we've known this for 401 years. Sir, Francis Bacon 1620 170 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:20.500 theorized this idea of cognitive bias. Right? And it was to say that when 171 00:13:20.500 --> 00:13:25.850 we've established an opinion, we will take all inputs to support that opinion. 172 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:30.500 Whether or not that input is supporting your opinion or not. Like we see that 173 00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:35.750 politically every day. An example, um, your nascar slider, your logo slide. I 174 00:13:35.750 --> 00:13:39.190 used to joke at power reviews and anybody who's listening to this that 175 00:13:39.190 --> 00:13:43.590 knows me knows I was joking, but you probably were like, I don't want to 176 00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:48.100 test this. And it was if I see a Nascar slide in the first five slides of a 177 00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:53.830 deck, whoever put it in there is fired. That was a joke. But like my ceo walked 178 00:13:53.830 --> 00:13:56.820 in, he was like, I'm going to present this. And I was like, you're fired. But 179 00:13:56.820 --> 00:13:57.360 here's why 180 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:03.660 Imagine you are presenting to 10 people. So consensus fires, you got 10 of them, 181 00:14:04.040 --> 00:14:07.700 five of them are leaning towards you. So five of them are like, I like these 182 00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:12.350 people, I think this is the solution for us fiber against you meaning 183 00:14:12.350 --> 00:14:16.140 they're leaning towards either competitor or doing nothing. How are 184 00:14:16.140 --> 00:14:20.600 they going to look at your nascar side? The five there for you again, think 185 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:23.920 Francis bacon, cognitive eyes. They're going to take that data and they're 186 00:14:23.920 --> 00:14:28.100 gonna look at those logos and go, wow, that's impressive. If they're good 187 00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:30.660 enough for them, they're good enough for us. Like, and there's some great 188 00:14:30.660 --> 00:14:34.570 companies on there, right? So you've accomplished your goal as a salesperson 189 00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:38.980 to build credibility through the logo slide gay for you. But what about the 190 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:40.560 five people that are against you? 191 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:46.330 They're looking at this singing, wow. Those are some big companies, Hey, 192 00:14:46.330 --> 00:14:49.980 we're going to get lost. Uh, you know what? We're going to be a small fish in 193 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:54.050 a big pond here. I'm gonna use that to support my belief that we shouldn't go 194 00:14:54.050 --> 00:14:56.890 with these people. And then there's a couple other ones that are looking at 195 00:14:56.890 --> 00:15:02.060 it saying, wow, I see banking and aerospace and manufacturing. Well, are 196 00:15:02.060 --> 00:15:06.490 they generalists? Do they really know? Like our industry is different? Like 197 00:15:06.490 --> 00:15:09.490 every buyer thinks that right? Our industry is different and they're 198 00:15:09.490 --> 00:15:13.330 generalists. Do they really even know us? The point being that the 199 00:15:13.330 --> 00:15:18.320 traditional choreography that leads with data, data data or facts, facts, 200 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:23.240 facts or we we we or this is why we're so great is literally taking people's 201 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:28.750 prevailing opinions and pushing them into their corners further. And so we 202 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:33.440 always have heard I've got books up here that talk about story sell right? 203 00:15:33.450 --> 00:15:37.280 We can have they absolutely do sell. And that's why because when we lead 204 00:15:37.280 --> 00:15:41.870 with facts and data, we polarized audiences. Stories bring us together a 205 00:15:41.870 --> 00:15:47.990 motion brings us together. But a key point there. If your story has you as 206 00:15:47.990 --> 00:15:52.630 the hero, you've got to make the customer is the hero lead to your 207 00:15:52.630 --> 00:15:56.210 solution instead of leading with it. But the traditional choreography, we 208 00:15:56.210 --> 00:16:00.120 just need to flip start with the customer lied to you instead of 209 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.310 starting with you and lead to the customer. Because by the time you get 210 00:16:03.310 --> 00:16:06.860 there they're thinking about their next meeting. This is another form of an 211 00:16:06.860 --> 00:16:11.570 epidemic. It's an epidemic in startup worlds, right? I call it the me me me 212 00:16:11.570 --> 00:16:17.430 sales deck. Right? We're grocer where I say, we, the first five minutes they 213 00:16:17.430 --> 00:16:21.110 show up, they're paying attention because they're hoping that you're 214 00:16:21.110 --> 00:16:25.010 there to help them with a problem that they're facing. And instead we, we, we 215 00:16:25.010 --> 00:16:28.730 we all over them, which is gross. So that's my, that's my gross joke. There 216 00:16:28.730 --> 00:16:33.150 you go. Well, let's keep going. So let's, let's assume that we've made 217 00:16:33.150 --> 00:16:36.490 some advances. We've assisted them along the way. And we finally get to a 218 00:16:36.490 --> 00:16:37.760 point where we're proposing, 219 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:43.930 how do you be transparent as you're proposing? Yeah. It's still a couple of 220 00:16:43.930 --> 00:16:48.670 things. One thing about transparency, especially early stage, um, just for 221 00:16:48.670 --> 00:16:53.310 everybody. And this is aside from your question when I work with early stage 222 00:16:53.310 --> 00:16:57.280 companies, the first thing I tell them is you better be leading with the fact 223 00:16:57.280 --> 00:17:00.950 that you're a startup, especially if you're selling to larger organizations 224 00:17:00.950 --> 00:17:06.569 and the way you do that is not, hey, we suck. It's thinking about that 42 to 4 225 00:17:06.569 --> 00:17:10.210 or five and going into, there's a client that I advised here in Chicago 226 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:14.790 and they were just getting started a couple years ago, a couple of guys in 227 00:17:14.790 --> 00:17:19.030 an office, like just a little shed of an office and they get an inbound lead 228 00:17:19.030 --> 00:17:23.690 from Nordstrom and they're like, Oh gosh, this is great. Um, but like 229 00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:26.630 should we, should we tell them that it's just a couple of us. So we're 230 00:17:26.630 --> 00:17:31.390 getting like, yes, you better because you're going to put all of your energy 231 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:34.920 towards this opportunity. And let's say four months from now they're getting 232 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:39.300 ready to buy. And they're like, so like we need your financial statements and 233 00:17:39.300 --> 00:17:44.470 like your financial statements are like three figures and you're like, so if 234 00:17:44.470 --> 00:17:47.850 you're gonna lose lose fast. And so the way you embrace that is to say, hey, 235 00:17:47.850 --> 00:17:51.930 listen, before we get too deep into this, we just want to share with you 236 00:17:51.940 --> 00:17:56.500 where we are as a company. We've got this idea, we've built out minimum 237 00:17:56.500 --> 00:17:59.860 viable product. We feel really good about it. We've got a couple of 238 00:17:59.860 --> 00:18:03.800 customers here they are, but we're still small if that's going to be a 239 00:18:03.800 --> 00:18:07.800 problem, like let's bet that out now before we get too deep into this. 240 00:18:07.810 --> 00:18:12.640 Because if it's a problem, you want to know that. But if it's a problem and 241 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.990 you faced it head on and you've embraced it, you've built trust, you've 242 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:20.250 endeared them to you. And if it does become a problem later on, you've given 243 00:18:20.250 --> 00:18:24.130 yourself a lot more rope that they can't really come back to you six 244 00:18:24.130 --> 00:18:27.650 months from now and go, you're only four people. So we're gonna know. We've 245 00:18:27.650 --> 00:18:30.280 already talked about that and they've already gained a comfort. And that's 246 00:18:30.280 --> 00:18:35.710 part of that limit filter that's been removed. That allows them to build that 247 00:18:35.710 --> 00:18:40.490 trust. So, for everybody, before I go into the proposal, talk, embrace who 248 00:18:40.490 --> 00:18:45.160 you are as a company and where you are, lead with it, build trust, it will 249 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:49.600 endear customers to you and it will help you lose faster. So, if that 250 00:18:49.600 --> 00:18:53.120 company wouldn't have said anything and six months from now, Nordstrom would 251 00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:57.780 have said you're too small, they just wasted six months of their funding and 252 00:18:57.780 --> 00:19:02.370 they probably be out of business. So brace it. So that aside, let's talk 253 00:19:02.370 --> 00:19:08.480 proposals for a second. So, first of all, I've always been confused by 254 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:13.330 something and guys don't take this wrong. I love never split the 255 00:19:13.330 --> 00:19:18.360 difference by chris voss that book. It's fascinating. It's brainy. It's 256 00:19:18.360 --> 00:19:25.620 nerdy. I love it. However, I've never understood why in sales with building 257 00:19:25.620 --> 00:19:30.800 relationships with customers and then when they say yes, we decide to take on 258 00:19:30.800 --> 00:19:35.440 a different personality and it's a personality taught by us by former 259 00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:41.420 hostage negotiators, like what we're not negotiating the release of hostages 260 00:19:41.420 --> 00:19:45.110 from a bank heist for negotiating a software contract. And I never 261 00:19:45.110 --> 00:19:50.670 understood why we lose transparency. We erode trust at the goal line or if we 262 00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:54.620 decide we don't want to road trust at the goal line, we just spew out 263 00:19:54.620 --> 00:19:59.030 discounts in the form of charity to a company's bottom line. So I, you know, 264 00:19:59.030 --> 00:20:04.440 15 years ago stumbled on this idea of leading with not only price but are 265 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:11.120 levers and are levers, meaning what our pricing is based on. And I'll explain 266 00:20:11.120 --> 00:20:16.130 what that means. It's when a customer asks you about your pricing, you tell 267 00:20:16.130 --> 00:20:20.600 them, hey, our pricing is based on volume, right? Like it's in our case at 268 00:20:20.600 --> 00:20:26.400 the time it was user base. So the more users you commit to better it is for us, 269 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:31.100 the more will reward you in a per user discount, Right? But our pricing is 270 00:20:31.100 --> 00:20:32.760 also based on three other things, 271 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:38.120 turns out we like cash. We like money, who knew. The faster you pay us, the 272 00:20:38.120 --> 00:20:40.860 better it is for us, the more that's reflected in your pricing, 273 00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:45.460 Number three is the commitment length. The longer you commit to our products, 274 00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:49.320 technology services. Better it is for us, the more that's reflected in your 275 00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:56.340 pricing And # four is the timing of the transaction. As it turns out, we've got 276 00:20:56.340 --> 00:21:01.040 investors that we need to do forecast for. So there is a forecasting element 277 00:21:01.040 --> 00:21:06.070 that's valuable to us, but we also have to resource this opportunity to, and 278 00:21:06.080 --> 00:21:10.270 our ability to predict that is highly valuable. And as such, it will be if we 279 00:21:10.270 --> 00:21:16.810 mutually aligned around timing, it will be reflected in um in the pricing. And 280 00:21:16.810 --> 00:21:20.500 so now the customer has not only skin in the game, but you've transparently 281 00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:24.560 thrown your cards face up on the table, allowing them to negotiate their own 282 00:21:24.560 --> 00:21:28.630 discounts so that in the end when you get down in the negotiation, your 283 00:21:28.630 --> 00:21:34.480 customers are then uh john meeting 20% off. Like Instead of going, I can give 284 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:40.410 you 10 And like you start playing ping Pong game instead embraced this idea of 285 00:21:40.420 --> 00:21:44.290 you need 20. Okay. Like tell me about what's going on, why why are we 20% off? 286 00:21:44.300 --> 00:21:47.950 All right, cool. I think we've got a way to get there uh first would be 287 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:51.170 commit to more volume. That's not going to help the total dollar amount, but it 288 00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:54.090 will help your discount percentage because we'll pay you in the form of a 289 00:21:54.090 --> 00:21:57.770 discount to accelerate some of these other licenses pay us faster, 290 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.280 accelerate your cash payments. Good for us. We'll pay you in the form of a 291 00:22:01.280 --> 00:22:05.220 discount to do that, commit to another year. Valuable to us will pay you in 292 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:09.060 the form of a discount to do that or when do you think you'll get this done? 293 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:14.270 Oh, end of May. All right, cool. Why don't I'll do this? Our quarter ends 294 00:22:14.270 --> 00:22:17.860 the end of june. I'll give you till the end of june then if you think you get 295 00:22:17.860 --> 00:22:21.710 this done in May, let's align around june. Can you do joon? Oh yeah, we 296 00:22:21.710 --> 00:22:25.060 better be able to do joon Alright, cool. I'm gonna pay you to hold to that 297 00:22:25.070 --> 00:22:28.780 because there's value to us in our organization to be able to predict our 298 00:22:28.780 --> 00:22:33.000 business and all of a sudden now you've gotten value for every dollar you've 299 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.450 given away in the form of a discount you've built trust to the goal line and 300 00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:41.950 if you do that last element, your forecast become immediately more 301 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:47.070 predictable and accurate too. So like why wouldn't you? And so that's, that's 302 00:22:47.070 --> 00:22:52.860 the idea of yeah, that stuff awesome. But there's an opportunity to sell and 303 00:22:52.860 --> 00:22:57.210 negotiate in the same way and it's cards face up and your customers love 304 00:22:57.210 --> 00:23:00.900 it. And I'm telling you, your discount percentages will go down, your 305 00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:05.230 confidence in the way that you propose and provide pricing to customers will 306 00:23:05.230 --> 00:23:10.420 go up and as it turns out, confidence is contagious and your customers will 307 00:23:10.430 --> 00:23:15.260 have faith and confidence in you. And I'm telling I do this when I price out 308 00:23:15.260 --> 00:23:19.900 my speaking or workshops and nobody negotiates my pricing which is amazing. 309 00:23:19.910 --> 00:23:23.890 But maybe I'm not charging enough. But besides the point, it's like, hey, 310 00:23:23.890 --> 00:23:27.260 here's my pricing, here's what it's based on. If we need to jiggle it, 311 00:23:27.270 --> 00:23:32.260 here's the levers you can use and uh, choose your own adventure. Yeah. And I 312 00:23:32.260 --> 00:23:36.640 like the way you said they will pay you in the form of a discount that looks 313 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:41.560 like you've then got skin in the game, which is relevant to them. So you 314 00:23:41.560 --> 00:23:46.570 mentioned something in the book about results formula. Right? Um, there's, 315 00:23:46.570 --> 00:23:52.090 there's some beauty in that in that formula. It sounds like it's very close 316 00:23:52.090 --> 00:23:58.360 in concept to sales velocity formula, right? Where you're, you're calculating, 317 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:04.060 you're in essence looking at your number of deals? Well, there's a 318 00:24:04.060 --> 00:24:08.270 formula. Why don't you explain it As I, if I recall correctly right, It's deals 319 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:15.190 times win rate, times average price and then you divide that by the sale cycle. 320 00:24:15.190 --> 00:24:19.130 The number of days in the sale cycle. Is that correct? Yes, exactly. So that 321 00:24:19.130 --> 00:24:22.370 was the thing as a C. R. O. I felt like I could measure everything. And 322 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:26.850 unfortunately for my director of sales up, I did like at the beginning of 323 00:24:26.850 --> 00:24:31.770 every month hide under his desk. But at its core there's really just four 324 00:24:31.770 --> 00:24:36.560 things that are they key performance indicators. Like all those other ones 325 00:24:36.560 --> 00:24:41.380 are just P. S. These are KPs and it's like you said, the number of qualified 326 00:24:41.380 --> 00:24:46.440 opportunities, how big they are, how often you close so that the win rate 327 00:24:46.450 --> 00:24:51.130 and then how fast. So the cycling. Now the reason that this is important is 328 00:24:51.130 --> 00:24:54.180 not like if you do that math, it's going to spit out exactly your results. 329 00:24:54.190 --> 00:24:58.890 But there's two reasons why this is really important. Number one, Let's say 330 00:24:58.890 --> 00:25:04.520 that you need to grow 20%,, 20%. Seems like a big number. But as it turns out, 331 00:25:04.530 --> 00:25:08.480 if you just do simple math And you raise your number of opportunities by 332 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:14.490 5%. So let's say you have 20 opportunities 5% 1. You increase your 333 00:25:14.490 --> 00:25:20.830 deal sizes by 155%. So you gotta, you know $40,000 average selling prices now. 334 00:25:20.830 --> 00:25:27.530 42,000. Can you get 2000 more? Maybe your win rate by 5%. You increase that 335 00:25:27.540 --> 00:25:31.410 and then you shrink your cycle length by 5% which is typically a couple of 336 00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:38.020 days depending on what you're selling grow 22%. The math always works. Put in 337 00:25:38.020 --> 00:25:41.990 any numbers you will grow 22%. So it's small little things and sew. Look at 338 00:25:41.990 --> 00:25:46.830 each one of those four and go what can we do better about attracting or 339 00:25:46.830 --> 00:25:51.230 qualifying more opportunities? What can we do better about just increasing the 340 00:25:51.230 --> 00:25:55.150 value of our deals? What can we do about qualifying in and out deals 341 00:25:55.150 --> 00:26:00.390 better and faster ie transparency so that we increase our win rate. What can 342 00:26:00.390 --> 00:26:04.790 we do with cycle lengths I. E. Transparency to speed decision making 343 00:26:04.790 --> 00:26:08.430 and speed the cycle, right? That's the first way to think about it. That's 344 00:26:08.430 --> 00:26:11.620 super important. And it would be great as you start hiring a bunch of sales 345 00:26:11.620 --> 00:26:16.220 reps and you raise quotas and they're like, Man, I just killed myself this 346 00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:19.830 last year and now you're asking me for 20% more? Well, it's small little 347 00:26:19.830 --> 00:26:23.500 increments if we're not getting better. We're getting worse. The second way to 348 00:26:23.500 --> 00:26:29.430 think about this though. Yes. To stop looking at each one in a silo, look at 349 00:26:29.430 --> 00:26:33.850 them as a combination of formula and here's what I mean. Remember going into 350 00:26:33.850 --> 00:26:38.130 a board meeting and we had started to get really good at qualifying like we 351 00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:41.100 were getting and we're using transparency and like we were working 352 00:26:41.100 --> 00:26:44.430 the deals we should win. So I go into the board meeting, what does the board 353 00:26:44.430 --> 00:26:47.960 do? Looks at my number of qualified opportunities and it's just like, 354 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:53.720 what's going on Todd? You're qualified opportunities way down. Like, wait, 355 00:26:53.730 --> 00:26:57.830 what is there a problem with marketing? Is your team not prospecting? Like 356 00:26:57.830 --> 00:27:01.830 they're getting mad at me and I'm like, this is good news, everybody like this 357 00:27:01.830 --> 00:27:06.140 is good news because look at the other data points, the deal sizes for each 358 00:27:06.140 --> 00:27:10.670 one are going way up, our win rates are going through the roof because we're 359 00:27:10.670 --> 00:27:14.040 working the opportunities we should work in, our cycle lengths are going 360 00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:18.620 down and oh, by the way, we just proved 40% last quarter. So shut the hell up. 361 00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:23.710 I didn't say something, but the point being we need to stop, we get ourselves 362 00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:27.870 out of these silos and think about these things as a ratio and you start 363 00:27:27.870 --> 00:27:32.360 to do that at the rep level to like there was reps at power reviews. One 364 00:27:32.360 --> 00:27:38.130 was an incredible deal Qualifier, but the deal sucked and rarely closed the 365 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:43.390 there was another one who is incredible at qualification speed. Working on the 366 00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:47.860 deals we should win and he consistently crushed that other guy. But if you're 367 00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:51.340 just looking at number of qualified opportunities, you might be yelling at 368 00:27:51.340 --> 00:27:54.870 the second guy instead of the first one. Right? And so we got to get out of 369 00:27:54.870 --> 00:27:59.640 these silos. So that results formula really powerful for thinking about 370 00:27:59.650 --> 00:28:04.150 growth. It actually became really powerful for presenting to my board our 371 00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:08.160 progress and how we're making priorities. But it's also really 372 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.150 incredibly helpful for coaching and managing these reps that you bring on 373 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:16.220 to get them focused and to see where they could be making improvements. And 374 00:28:16.220 --> 00:28:21.090 it's not always more, more more, it's smarter, Smarter, Smarter. It's a very 375 00:28:21.100 --> 00:28:26.070 simple, clear way to manage, especially if you're early into learning sales or 376 00:28:26.070 --> 00:28:32.210 if you have the beginnings of a sales organization, very clean, simple ways 377 00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:37.010 to deliver and measure, which I think is wonderful. So let's, let's keep 378 00:28:37.010 --> 00:28:41.720 going. Um, you, you know, a lot of people that say, you want to under 379 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:46.740 promise and over deliver, you posted about this not too long ago. And it 380 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:53.170 just, it made me laugh because I knew even before I finished reading that, 381 00:28:53.180 --> 00:28:56.350 that you were going to take the opposite for some reason. 382 00:28:57.840 --> 00:29:03.250 That's john, you know me too well, my brother. That's so funny. So yeah, it's 383 00:29:03.260 --> 00:29:04.670 uh, listen, 384 00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:12.060 there's this idea that it was funny. I was reading a linked in an article 385 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:17.510 about creating great customer experience, right? That Gosh, the 2020s 386 00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:22.320 are all going to be about creating not just great experiences but legendary 387 00:29:22.320 --> 00:29:25.390 like that's the next mountains of climate. If you don't do that, you're 388 00:29:25.390 --> 00:29:29.120 screwed. And I was like, all right. And then I kept looking and there was a ton 389 00:29:29.120 --> 00:29:33.310 of articles that are basically saying the same thing. But it was right before 390 00:29:33.310 --> 00:29:37.600 I was going to Costco right, retailer, you probably are all well aware of. And 391 00:29:37.600 --> 00:29:41.970 so let this all fresh in my mind. But I had to go buy some stuff for a party 392 00:29:41.970 --> 00:29:47.040 that my daughter was having for 16th birthday. She wanted, she wanted like a 393 00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:51.870 vegetable tray and fruit tray and then ranch dressing. And so like I walk into 394 00:29:51.870 --> 00:29:56.600 Costco and this is no surprise, but like I walk over to the ranch dressing 395 00:29:56.610 --> 00:30:01.990 and they only sell it in 80 fluid ounce containers, which is like two thirds of 396 00:30:01.990 --> 00:30:06.030 the way to a gallon. I'm like, wow, that's about a legendary experience. 397 00:30:06.030 --> 00:30:10.100 Like what do I need with a freaking almost a gallon of ranch, Like, wow, 398 00:30:10.100 --> 00:30:13.020 like I'm gonna take a bath in it and then you look around and like the 399 00:30:13.020 --> 00:30:17.570 toothbrushes, you can't buy one, You got to buy seven. It's like, you know, 400 00:30:17.580 --> 00:30:22.540 by one for every three teeth it's, and then like as you check out there, just 401 00:30:22.540 --> 00:30:26.050 tossing the stuff on the conveyor, they don't give you a bag, they just throw 402 00:30:26.050 --> 00:30:29.690 it back in your cart and then there's a woman at the door that's checking your 403 00:30:29.690 --> 00:30:34.280 receipt to see if you stole anything. Now. That's not a legendary experience. 404 00:30:34.280 --> 00:30:38.540 Right? And I'm thinking, All right, well Costco is the number four retailer 405 00:30:38.540 --> 00:30:42.510 in the country, but this is interesting. And then like I'm driving home and I'm 406 00:30:42.510 --> 00:30:46.700 thinking about like a like a as a freaking nightmare. You've got to pull 407 00:30:46.700 --> 00:30:50.970 the boxes onto a cart in the warehouse yourself, jam it into your car, 408 00:30:50.980 --> 00:30:55.020 assemble it with 150 parts that don't have any words on the work instructions. 409 00:30:55.030 --> 00:30:59.470 F bomb your way through that you get done and you've got a souvenir injury 410 00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:03.590 or two and you just lost a year of your life. Yet they're the number one 411 00:31:03.590 --> 00:31:08.090 furniture retailer in the world for 13 straight years. Why does all of this 412 00:31:08.090 --> 00:31:13.480 happens? It's because of expectation setting that when I dug into the 413 00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:19.850 behavioral science on this, the key to having customers that stay buy more and 414 00:31:19.860 --> 00:31:24.820 advocate on your behalf is about setting accurate expectations and 415 00:31:24.820 --> 00:31:29.580 consistently meeting them. Now you probably say of course we don't want to 416 00:31:29.590 --> 00:31:34.920 over commit and over promise and under deliver. That's obvious, right. That's 417 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:40.160 your 50 speak though by the way, get out of that set accurate expectations 418 00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:44.610 by embracing transparency, stop over promise and under deliver. But the 419 00:31:44.610 --> 00:31:47.750 thing that you were just joking about your like I knew he's going to go in 420 00:31:47.750 --> 00:31:52.280 opposite way on this is you know, under promise and over deliver. It's great 421 00:31:52.280 --> 00:31:57.070 for one time transactions and short term satisfaction spikes. So I'm having 422 00:31:57.070 --> 00:32:01.160 one experience with you and you do more than I expected. That's endearing. I'm 423 00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:07.250 satisfied while this is great. However, if you are consistently under promise 424 00:32:07.260 --> 00:32:08.260 and over deliver, 425 00:32:09.340 --> 00:32:13.770 you can't keep up. It's literally a form of lying and your customers will 426 00:32:13.770 --> 00:32:17.740 start to learn that hey, this person consistently under promises and as a 427 00:32:17.740 --> 00:32:22.380 result I'm doing something called expectation inflation. It's like, you 428 00:32:22.380 --> 00:32:26.650 know, you get a treat when you get the bill at a restaurant and you just come 429 00:32:26.650 --> 00:32:30.700 to expect it. There's actually a restaurant here in the strawberry. They 430 00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:35.790 give cookies for the kids at the end of like with the check and the kids like 431 00:32:35.800 --> 00:32:39.160 we go there because they're like excited about the cookies, right? So 432 00:32:39.170 --> 00:32:43.280 that's a, that's an under promise over deliver at the beginning, which is like, 433 00:32:43.280 --> 00:32:46.830 hey, that's more than we expected. That's really cool. But eventually it 434 00:32:46.830 --> 00:32:50.820 became an expectation to the point where all of a sudden we get there, we 435 00:32:50.820 --> 00:32:56.670 get the check and there's mints. My kids are like mints the heck like 436 00:32:56.670 --> 00:32:59.800 they're mad, right? They're mad. They're just getting the bill like 437 00:32:59.810 --> 00:33:04.510 every other restaurant. So you just got to be careful that the goal here is set 438 00:33:04.520 --> 00:33:09.140 accurate expectations, embrace transparency. But help a customer, a 439 00:33:09.140 --> 00:33:14.190 buyer, a prospect, predict the future and the more accurately you hit that 440 00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:17.680 the more endearing people come to you and think about the cost coast. I 441 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.470 always know I gotta buy in bulk. I always know if somebody is going to 442 00:33:20.470 --> 00:33:24.380 check my Received at the door and I'm never upset by it and I keep going back. 443 00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:28.100 I went to Costco two nights ago. So that's something we all do is 444 00:33:28.110 --> 00:33:33.780 expectations set meet it and win. And I just had an experience like this the 445 00:33:33.780 --> 00:33:39.780 other day, my family and I went on vacation and like always I picked 446 00:33:39.780 --> 00:33:45.120 Southwest Airlines, right? Talk about, you know, setting expectations. It's 447 00:33:45.120 --> 00:33:49.050 sort of like Costco in that. Here's what you're gonna get right. You're not, 448 00:33:49.050 --> 00:33:52.930 there's no first class, every seats the same. They stuff you in there. They 449 00:33:52.930 --> 00:33:58.450 taught you some peanuts and patch on the back and that's about it and off 450 00:33:58.450 --> 00:34:03.210 you go. Uh But another example, I think that fits in there. You know, you to 451 00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:08.940 also talk about this whole idea of I think you did a blog article um on 452 00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:16.020 virtual selling. That was about silence in the conversation. You want to touch 453 00:34:16.020 --> 00:34:21.620 on that. There's so much one of the things that kicked this off was I 454 00:34:21.620 --> 00:34:25.570 listen to podcasts and I read and there's so much talk of zoom fatigue, 455 00:34:25.580 --> 00:34:30.120 right? And um there's two articles. One was on the silence peace. But it 456 00:34:30.120 --> 00:34:36.060 started through this revelation that Everybody's talking about zoom for two, 457 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:41.300 but nobody talks about what it really is can be. Everybody's got a different 458 00:34:41.300 --> 00:34:46.330 explanation for why it's created. And so I I ended up in one article I 459 00:34:46.330 --> 00:34:51.860 curated nine different excuses I heard in fatigue. I researched each one and 460 00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:56.429 then explained it. I think the bottom line here is that zoom fatigue is real. 461 00:34:56.440 --> 00:35:00.310 We can't use that as an excuse especially anymore. But there's certain 462 00:35:00.310 --> 00:35:05.640 things that happen in zoom that don't um equate exactly to human to human 463 00:35:05.640 --> 00:35:09.760 interaction. As a result, our brain, it takes a little bit more to process it. 464 00:35:09.770 --> 00:35:13.930 Like right now, when I'm looking at the lights, you feel like I'm looking at 465 00:35:13.930 --> 00:35:17.820 you. But I'm not looking at you. I'm looking at a light, right? And so I'm 466 00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:22.220 not able to assess your real interactions. I'm not able to see your 467 00:35:22.220 --> 00:35:26.570 eye movements and things like that that happened. The other thing that is 468 00:35:26.570 --> 00:35:32.380 exhausting to the brain is I can see myself, right? And it's called the 469 00:35:32.380 --> 00:35:38.340 Mirror Effect. But if you look at in the mirror 100 times a day, you're 470 00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:41.780 constantly judging yourself. I'm constantly even subconsciously looking 471 00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:45.040 at my background, make sure everything's distracting too good. But 472 00:35:45.040 --> 00:35:47.890 like I don't have a shiny forehead, like all that stuff that there's 473 00:35:47.900 --> 00:35:52.840 there's but nine, there's nine of these. One of them though, is this idea of 474 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:58.560 silence. And here's the advice for everybody. If you're doing a call with 475 00:35:58.570 --> 00:36:01.830 a group of people, let's say you're presenting to a number of people even 476 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:05.840 more than three or four. First of all, know that it will be impossible for you 477 00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:10.800 to assess who's actually watching, right? So your brain is going to have a 478 00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:15.010 little bit of a hard time with that. It's impossible for you to assess who's 479 00:36:15.010 --> 00:36:18.480 going to speak next because in a conference room where you can see 480 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.940 people, you can see them lean forward, you can see them make direct eye 481 00:36:21.940 --> 00:36:25.430 contact. You can sometimes see them push the laptop away or close the 482 00:36:25.430 --> 00:36:30.300 notebook or get ready. Like the kind of burst, you can't, it's impossible. So 483 00:36:30.310 --> 00:36:36.020 turn taking becomes very very difficult to assess and it creates a little bit 484 00:36:36.030 --> 00:36:40.900 of tiredness in the brain. The other thing though is, let's say you say, hey 485 00:36:40.910 --> 00:36:45.310 um anybody have any questions. Is this uh is this going like are we on track 486 00:36:45.310 --> 00:36:50.300 so far? No. All right cool. We'll keep going. Okay. You've got to remember 487 00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:53.770 that these individuals, they think of their questions. They then got to go 488 00:36:53.770 --> 00:36:57.690 find the mute button like where I got to a mute myself and then they've got 489 00:36:57.690 --> 00:37:01.630 to assess the room to see if anybody else is about to talk and then they 490 00:37:01.640 --> 00:37:07.350 then speak up. I know it's uncomfortable. The human brain has a 491 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:11.410 comfort level with silence in a conversation of anywhere from about 492 00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:15.670 three seconds, it's 3 to 4 seconds in the U. S. It's closer to eight seconds 493 00:37:15.670 --> 00:37:22.150 in Japan. Once we hit that 3 to 4 second mark, we get uncomfortable. A 494 00:37:22.150 --> 00:37:26.970 conversation is like a dance, it's like a choreography, it needs to flow and 495 00:37:26.970 --> 00:37:32.260 when it doesn't, it hurts us inside its tyrant, it feels like our self esteem 496 00:37:32.260 --> 00:37:35.460 goes down. And so when I say any questions, 497 00:37:36.530 --> 00:37:40.520 wait, wait a couple of seconds, make sure that you're giving everybody an 498 00:37:40.520 --> 00:37:46.090 opportunity to chime in. The other piece of that though is again around 499 00:37:46.100 --> 00:37:50.460 expectation setting is set. That expectation at the beginning, educate 500 00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:53.630 people on this idea before the meeting starts saying, hey we're going to go 501 00:37:53.630 --> 00:37:57.930 through this, we're going to stop every so often For questions and it's 502 00:37:57.930 --> 00:38:02.400 probably gonna get uncomfortable so I'm probably gonna wait three or 4 or five 503 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.570 seconds before we move on because I want everybody to have a chance to a 504 00:38:06.570 --> 00:38:10.160 mute and figure out when they're going to take terms. But that might feel kind 505 00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:13.770 of weird. So we're gonna laugh about it. But let's go. So you set that 506 00:38:13.770 --> 00:38:17.660 expectation and now people can shine in, they feel more comfortable. I've been 507 00:38:17.660 --> 00:38:20.930 doing that in my workshops the last week or so since I kind of discovered 508 00:38:20.930 --> 00:38:24.670 that and it feels so freaking weird, but everybody's laughing because 509 00:38:24.670 --> 00:38:30.640 they're like, that's five seconds, like, yeah, yeah. But I've got a question. So, 510 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:37.220 Oh man, awesome. All right. So so we talked about messaging. We talked about 511 00:38:37.220 --> 00:38:40.160 presentations. We talked about negotiation. One of the things that I 512 00:38:40.160 --> 00:38:44.700 think where a lot of early sellers or these founders that are, that are not 513 00:38:44.700 --> 00:38:50.120 used to selling stumble is an early outreach. Right? And I think at some 514 00:38:50.120 --> 00:38:54.200 point, um, in the book and through blogs, I think you've talked about how 515 00:38:54.200 --> 00:38:59.780 to how you like the idea. Yeah. What are the ideals for sending emails? Yeah. 516 00:38:59.790 --> 00:39:02.840 And so I think this is one of those cases where um, 517 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:08.400 really embracing clinical levels of empathy with your target is so 518 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:14.030 important, right? And one of the things just kind of a side note is if you're 519 00:39:14.030 --> 00:39:15.150 selling the marketing, 520 00:39:16.220 --> 00:39:21.000 go find some marketing buddies of yours to go sit down with and ask them to 521 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:28.150 show you their inbox to tell teach you about how they get bonus and like how 522 00:39:28.150 --> 00:39:31.740 they're measured, what conferences they go to, What kinds of things do they pay 523 00:39:31.740 --> 00:39:36.990 attention to? And in their inbox, what stands out to them? Like empathy. If 524 00:39:36.990 --> 00:39:39.940 you're selling the product, find some product people and ask them the same 525 00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:43.490 question selling the finance do the same thing you've got to be able to 526 00:39:43.490 --> 00:39:47.810 relate to these people because for the most part in boxes are just filled with 527 00:39:47.810 --> 00:39:53.670 white noise, that couple of things. First of all, We've all been taught to 528 00:39:53.680 --> 00:39:58.870 optimize the subject line in our emails, but keep in mind like my phone, my 529 00:39:58.870 --> 00:40:03.980 gmail, my outlook, they all have a preview of 10 words to make sure you're 530 00:40:03.990 --> 00:40:08.250 optimizing those. And in the book, I have an example of my inbox. Like I 531 00:40:08.260 --> 00:40:13.050 literally took a screenshot box because I was so frustrated and like almost 532 00:40:13.050 --> 00:40:18.240 every message started with Todd, I wanted to or Todd, I was just checking 533 00:40:18.250 --> 00:40:24.240 or Todd, I I wanted to make sure that you got my last email or you know, it 534 00:40:24.240 --> 00:40:28.580 was all, they all started the exact same way and they all started by making 535 00:40:28.580 --> 00:40:33.960 it about them. Now, I love salespeople right like this is my life. I was 536 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:41.920 getting a 100 to 150 emails per day and I was in 30-35 meetings per week. I had 537 00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:46.260 to prioritize my inbox and I had to prioritize it based on three 538 00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:51.370 fundamental things. I would look at the subject line plus the preview and ask 539 00:40:51.370 --> 00:40:56.660 myself The three things that I cared most about is is this about my team? Is 540 00:40:56.660 --> 00:41:00.630 this about my customers? Is this about my prospects? But those are the three 541 00:41:00.630 --> 00:41:06.300 winners. And then with the filter of is this email here to help me or to sell 542 00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:06.440 me 543 00:41:07.510 --> 00:41:11.130 and everything that started with, I just wanted to or I wanted to are 544 00:41:11.140 --> 00:41:15.450 expecting in or a guilt trip. I'm sorry. You could have been saying I just 545 00:41:15.450 --> 00:41:19.870 wanted to figure out how to give you $1 million. I would never see it because I 546 00:41:19.870 --> 00:41:25.350 wanted to earn the delete right? So for everybody gain that level of empathy 547 00:41:25.350 --> 00:41:31.020 for the inbox. But the two things that I would suggest is stop trying to sell 548 00:41:31.020 --> 00:41:36.600 hard and inbox and in email and instead look for ways to add value and a 549 00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:40.880 personalized with right? Like that's number one and number two is get the 550 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.790 eyes and we's out of those 1st 10 words like that. Simple and personalized and 551 00:41:44.790 --> 00:41:51.510 valuable is, I'll give you one quick example. Um I in Chicago, I just posted 552 00:41:51.510 --> 00:41:56.440 rolls on our website for sales development rests. two days later, 553 00:41:56.450 --> 00:42:01.100 somebody sends me an email that says Todd here is an SDR salary study of 554 00:42:01.100 --> 00:42:03.020 what sdrs are making in the Chicago market. 555 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:08.230 It was like, oh, that's interesting to see our roles in the Chicago market. I 556 00:42:08.230 --> 00:42:11.790 open that one and that's all it was. And then the second sentence said, hey, 557 00:42:11.790 --> 00:42:15.190 we saw you just posted small thought this might help you out. I was like, 558 00:42:15.190 --> 00:42:19.230 that's cool. They did something similar two weeks later, right after my quarter 559 00:42:19.230 --> 00:42:23.660 in, where they sent me a C. R. O. Board deck template saying, hey, quarter 560 00:42:23.660 --> 00:42:25.960 ended, you probably prepping for your board. Hopefully this saves you some 561 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.660 time. And I'm like, I burst into tears and who are these people? This is 562 00:42:29.660 --> 00:42:32.840 awesome. I want to talk to them. And then when they called that was the one 563 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.910 cold call I answered and personalized value. Look for ways that you can make 564 00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:43.810 your customers or prospects more uh efficient, better smarter in their own 565 00:42:43.810 --> 00:42:47.530 business. You build that trust, you build that relationship. And then when 566 00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:52.460 it comes time to ask, they're much more likely to engage versus the white noise 567 00:42:52.470 --> 00:42:56.550 that fills their inbox. I mean anything like that that stood out like a large 568 00:42:56.550 --> 00:43:00.880 bright light in a black forest, right? It's just like, what's that one and 569 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:05.410 that's your opportunity, yep. So adding value is tremendously important. I 570 00:43:05.410 --> 00:43:09.110 always like to say uh that one of the things you're trying to do on top of 571 00:43:09.110 --> 00:43:12.640 adding value is you're really trying to start a conversation and what better 572 00:43:12.640 --> 00:43:16.050 way to do that than have their interests at heart. Not something that 573 00:43:16.060 --> 00:43:18.630 you want to do is kind of like your sales presentation that we talked about 574 00:43:18.630 --> 00:43:23.620 earlier. Similar concept. That's right, that's right. And it all comes down to 575 00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:28.120 like I joke about it being really aligned to reality makeover tv show, 576 00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:32.680 which I know sounds so crazy, but like watch Queer Eye Watch Restaurant 577 00:43:32.680 --> 00:43:37.310 Impossible, Watch the biggest loser that they're all selling right? It's 578 00:43:37.310 --> 00:43:41.460 the same thing. They've got somebody who's got a problem that would 579 00:43:41.470 --> 00:43:46.710 potentially love their health. They show up, they align about, hey, what do 580 00:43:46.710 --> 00:43:50.140 you believe your problems to be? Why are we spending this time together? 581 00:43:50.150 --> 00:43:53.680 They disarm especially queer eye. These guys act like themselves. They're 582 00:43:53.680 --> 00:43:57.730 dancing around there trying stuff on there being themselves. It's hilarious, 583 00:43:57.730 --> 00:44:03.400 but it's purposeful. They're showing the buyer this individual, who they are 584 00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:07.740 and what they're getting. And then they go into diagnosis where they're saying, 585 00:44:07.750 --> 00:44:10.980 hey, have you thought about this? Did you notice this? There's an opportunity 586 00:44:10.980 --> 00:44:13.920 over here that maybe you're not thinking about that? We see others with 587 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:18.810 the same thing. They back it up with the logic. So they created the feeling 588 00:44:19.120 --> 00:44:23.230 they've delivered the diagnosis. They then back it up with the logic and the 589 00:44:23.230 --> 00:44:26.750 potential reward for doing something about it. And they lied to their 590 00:44:26.750 --> 00:44:29.580 solution. They don't talk about what they're going to do at the beginning. 591 00:44:29.590 --> 00:44:33.790 They talk about what they're going to do after they really allow this 592 00:44:33.790 --> 00:44:38.720 individual to see that their perception of their status quo is not quite right. 593 00:44:38.890 --> 00:44:41.560 And there's more opportunities they could achieve more than they thought 594 00:44:41.560 --> 00:44:45.280 they tried. And then, hey, here's the way that we're going to handle. It's 595 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:50.310 endearing. It tells a great story. That's the magic right there. Yeah. All 596 00:44:50.310 --> 00:44:53.980 right. So one of the last ones here, um, you mentioned it earlier, but yeah, you 597 00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:58.930 sort of glossed over. You use the terms lose fast, explain what you mean by 598 00:44:58.930 --> 00:44:59.210 that. 599 00:45:00.590 --> 00:45:05.900 Yeah. So a couple of things. I mean, the only thing that we is sales people 600 00:45:05.900 --> 00:45:11.110 really have in our inventory is our time, right? And so this idea of 601 00:45:11.120 --> 00:45:15.270 investing time and opportunities that we're going to lose later and that we 602 00:45:15.270 --> 00:45:20.850 know it. And the low odds type opportunities is just a, it just kills 603 00:45:20.850 --> 00:45:25.420 you long term. And so there's a couple. There's so much here. Like this is 604 00:45:25.420 --> 00:45:30.370 another big one. But I'll start with just a little bit of embracing my own 605 00:45:30.370 --> 00:45:35.650 transparency as a sales leader. One of the things that used to that I used to 606 00:45:35.650 --> 00:45:40.240 look at was pipeline loves right where I would look at my reps and say, hey, 607 00:45:40.240 --> 00:45:45.740 at any time you need to have four X your quota in pipe because we're only 608 00:45:45.740 --> 00:45:49.700 going to close a certain percentage that you're going to hit it. So I would 609 00:45:49.700 --> 00:45:54.330 look at the reps and you look at them and go, hey, you're not at four X. You 610 00:45:54.330 --> 00:45:58.420 need to get four X. And so what did they do? They got to four X. Still the 611 00:45:58.420 --> 00:46:03.610 crap. All right. We're basically creating these cultures where first of 612 00:46:03.610 --> 00:46:08.050 all for incentivizing over qualification or really under 613 00:46:08.050 --> 00:46:13.820 qualification for the sake of pipeline mode we need to stop doing that because 614 00:46:13.820 --> 00:46:19.400 that forex is a bad like we should be looking at. Why is it four X and not to 615 00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:23.530 ex why are we spending 3/4 of our time on opportunities that we're not going 616 00:46:23.530 --> 00:46:28.870 to close if we get a better at qualification and we create a culture 617 00:46:28.870 --> 00:46:33.640 where qualifying out is embraced and learning lessons from our losses is 618 00:46:33.640 --> 00:46:38.040 embraced and celebrating the losses versus just celebrating the winds, 619 00:46:38.240 --> 00:46:41.910 celebrate the losses for the lessons learned and the effort that was put in 620 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:46.950 to that opportunity. So we lose less embracing transparency. All of those 621 00:46:46.950 --> 00:46:51.770 elements tell us that, hey, like we talked about that results formula. It's 622 00:46:51.770 --> 00:46:55.500 not about more opportunities, it's about working opportunities that are 623 00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:58.310 bigger that we're going to close a higher percentage of and that we're 624 00:46:58.310 --> 00:47:02.900 going to close more quickly. And that is all about qualifying in and out fast. 625 00:47:02.910 --> 00:47:08.160 If you're going to lose, we want to lose fast so that we can spend our time 626 00:47:08.160 --> 00:47:12.980 more efficiently on the opportunities that we should win. And that's, you 627 00:47:12.980 --> 00:47:19.420 know, again, like that story of the Nordstrom conversation where they found 628 00:47:19.420 --> 00:47:22.800 her, didn't want to necessarily reveal that they were a start up. It was like 629 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:27.130 you really want to invest four months in this, have them find later no matter 630 00:47:27.130 --> 00:47:31.360 how great you are, if that's a policy of their better learn now. So that's 631 00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:35.410 that's the court of if you're going to lose lose fast. And for the leaders 632 00:47:35.410 --> 00:47:39.550 that are listening create a culture where you're celebrating women because 633 00:47:39.550 --> 00:47:42.380 the reps already getting punched in their pocket, They're already getting 634 00:47:42.380 --> 00:47:47.430 punched in their quota attainment trade and environment where you're 635 00:47:47.430 --> 00:47:51.260 celebrating the lessons learned that can be shared amongst everybody else so 636 00:47:51.260 --> 00:47:55.620 that we are able to recognize those earlier and qualify out of those types 637 00:47:55.620 --> 00:47:59.990 of opportunities earlier. If you start to see a trend in a certain area. Yeah, 638 00:47:59.990 --> 00:48:03.950 sharing that is just so important. I mean, 11 person experiences. It's, it's 639 00:48:03.950 --> 00:48:07.020 almost for certain that somebody else is going to experience that. So why not 640 00:48:07.020 --> 00:48:11.840 share that? It's how you grow. It's how you get better as an athlete, as a, as 641 00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:15.530 a musical instrument player, all of those different things. As a, as a 642 00:48:15.530 --> 00:48:19.790 physician, as a surgeon, you have to keep practicing and you're gonna get, 643 00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:23.140 you're gonna get skinned knees, you're gonna fall down, You gotta get back up 644 00:48:23.150 --> 00:48:27.100 and keep moving. If you can lose early, do it and keep moving. And I'll tell 645 00:48:27.100 --> 00:48:32.990 you, I've worked in environments where leaders treat every loss like a rep got 646 00:48:32.990 --> 00:48:38.420 out sold and when we do that, we create those types of cultures start to hide 647 00:48:38.420 --> 00:48:44.420 losses, opportunities too long. They start to bury things in their pipeline. 648 00:48:44.430 --> 00:48:48.560 They you as a leader of last instead of first when something starts going off 649 00:48:48.560 --> 00:48:55.110 the rails. And so we need to just and then first morale goes down too. So we 650 00:48:55.110 --> 00:48:58.700 need to replace losing as a culture, especially in a remote environment 651 00:48:59.070 --> 00:49:03.780 where reps are still, they're missing that feeling like people have their 652 00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:07.760 back because they're all alone. Yeah, it's a it's a hard thing. I mean, think 653 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:12.190 about it, right? If you're hitting three out of 10 in baseball, you're in 654 00:49:12.190 --> 00:49:18.060 the hall of fame. If you're making three out of 10 in selling, you are a 655 00:49:18.060 --> 00:49:21.530 rock star, right? You're you're gonna experience a lot of rejection. It's 656 00:49:21.530 --> 00:49:25.280 gonna happen, right? And especially an enterprise, it's one out of four or one 657 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:31.060 out of five is the typical ratio and so you're going, there's going to be 658 00:49:31.060 --> 00:49:36.710 losses. You just have to sort of, I guess get build immunity up and and 659 00:49:36.710 --> 00:49:40.530 accept the fact, you know, leaders have to accept it and sales people have to 660 00:49:40.530 --> 00:49:44.310 accept the fact that loss is going to be part of selling almost on day to day 661 00:49:44.310 --> 00:49:50.000 basis. Exactly. And learn to walk and get hit by pitches more often to get 662 00:49:50.390 --> 00:49:55.980 your on base percentage those way off. Right. Well, this has been a great 663 00:49:55.980 --> 00:50:01.460 conversation Todd, thank you so much for for being part of the podcast. And 664 00:50:01.460 --> 00:50:04.760 if there is a fair folks out there, they want to learn more, what is the 665 00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:09.890 best way to reach out and talk to you. Yeah, I mean my website transparency, 666 00:50:09.890 --> 00:50:13.800 sale dot com or todd Caponi dot com is probably the easiest. I've got a bunch 667 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:18.930 of stuff. Their blog posts and videos. When I wrote the book, I really didn't 668 00:50:18.930 --> 00:50:22.190 have an intention of it turning into the business that it has. And I was 669 00:50:22.190 --> 00:50:26.060 just about like I want to get these ideas out there so they're all there, 670 00:50:26.070 --> 00:50:29.620 go consume it, enjoy it. And then if you want to follow me or connect with 671 00:50:29.620 --> 00:50:33.080 me on linkedin, share a bunch of stuff there, but let me know where you heard 672 00:50:33.080 --> 00:50:37.630 me, that's super helpful to and I would love to be a resource for you. Any 673 00:50:37.630 --> 00:50:42.730 upcoming speaking engagements where we can go listen to you. You know what, I 674 00:50:42.730 --> 00:50:47.160 don't think I've got anything that's on the docket soon. That's a public facing 675 00:50:47.160 --> 00:50:51.540 thing. I've been doing a lot more customer specific stuff. I did two 676 00:50:51.540 --> 00:50:56.340 workshops yesterday and then two keynotes the day before. So if you want 677 00:50:56.340 --> 00:51:02.480 me for your organizations and I would love to speak as your sales kickoff or 678 00:51:02.490 --> 00:51:06.580 certainly there's some workshops or teach. That's, that's my passion and I 679 00:51:06.580 --> 00:51:09.480 love just spreading the word on this stuff. It's a great opportunity and 680 00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:12.690 thanks again and again, everyone should, should look into the transparency sale 681 00:51:12.690 --> 00:51:17.180 if you haven't already a great tool and resource for you. So everyone, thank 682 00:51:17.180 --> 00:51:20.750 you for listening to this episode of the revenue series on the B two B 683 00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:25.140 growth show. I'm your host, Jon crispin, founder and sales coach at early 684 00:51:25.140 --> 00:51:29.490 revenue. Until next time I am out. 685 00:51:33.460 --> 00:51:37.320 Are you an early stage tech founder that's frustrated by limited sales? Do 686 00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.390 you lack the time to dedicate to a traditional sales training program, 687 00:51:40.540 --> 00:51:44.320 John Grisham's Early revenue sales program helps early stage founders 688 00:51:44.330 --> 00:51:48.120 accelerate sales in large accounts. He's built a playbook that transfers 689 00:51:48.120 --> 00:51:51.530 what he's learned as a founder and sales later into a condensed, easy to 690 00:51:51.530 --> 00:51:55.210 implement program. If you're ready to increase your startup sales capacity, 691 00:51:55.220 --> 00:51:58.070 visit early revenue dot com to get started today, 692 00:52:00.060 --> 00:52:03.660 one of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of 693 00:52:03.660 --> 00:52:08.340 mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, 694 00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:12.260 it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if 695 00:52:12.260 --> 00:52:16.590 you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta, 696 00:52:16.600 --> 00:52:20.240 I know I'll send you a copy of my book, content based networking, how to 697 00:52:20.250 --> 00:52:23.680 instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 698 00:52:23.680 --> 00:52:30.490 40749033 to 8 Happy texting.