Transcript
WEBVTT
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welcome back to be to be growth. I'm
Dan Sanchez with Sweet Fish Media, and
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I am continuing the journey into
account based marketing, and by now I'm
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well into the Siri's. I'm probably 16,
17 episodes in. I've read multiple
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books, and I am honestly starting to
forget what it was like to not
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understand the subject, because right
now, the subject seeming so simple, I'm
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like, Oh, why doesn't everybody do this?
It just makes sense. But then I
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remember the moment I had last spring
when I was talking to James Carberry
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about the subject and he was talking
about he said a B M, and I had to pause
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him. I was like, Wait, time out. What
the heck is a B M on? And this wasn't
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that long ago for me. And then I read,
uh, sand berms book first and now I
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don't remember quite what it was like
to not know. I remember him explaining
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to me, and it even was a fuzzy then. So
I know there's a lot of people out
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there that are still starting with the
basis of not exactly understanding what
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it is, but let me drive into who we
have on the show and what we're gonna
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be talking about today and the reason
why I'm excited tohave Amber here is
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because she has been doing a B M for
multiple companies now and is currently
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the lead strategist at Degreed. And I
was talking to her over LinkedIn and
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was just excited to see someone who had
acquired a lot of knowledge through
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multiple implementations. Not just one.
Not just two, but three different
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implementations and a member. I know
you've told me you've won a B Emmy
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Awards. You've been all over the place.
And I'm excited now because now that
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I've gotten past, like, the basic stuff
I'm excited to kind of hear, like the
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ins and outs of what you've learned and
cover that here on the show today. So
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thanks so much for joining me on the
show. Thank you for having me. Yeah,
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it's nice to hear you remind me of that.
What? It's almost hard to remember what
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it was like to not know A B. Um, and
I've been doing this for, you know, for
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five years now, And I have to for I
have to remember sometimes that there.
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There are people that don't know what
it is. And I run into that all the time.
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Of course, in my field. And yeah, it Z,
I've been speaking the language for so
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long that I eat, sleep, breathe a B m
all the time. So I'm excited to be here
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to talk about when my very favorite
things? Absolutely. I just as of this,
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Siri's has been going on natural. I've
been posting about it on LinkedIn, but
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every once in a while I'm still getting
comments that are still like, What is
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account based marketing? I'm like, Oh
my gosh, like, are you in the B two B
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and not know about eight PM? It seems
like it's the buzzword, and it's such a
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buzz where the people are like, Oh,
it's not even a thing. It's just good
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marketing. It's what shouldn't even be
talked about. Just everybody knows
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Target better, and you're like, No, but
you know where I am, where I sit now?
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Almost. I mean, when I started doing a
B m. You know, 2016 or so, it was
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definitely early, early A B m days, and
I mean you'll hear from people saying
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like I was doing a B m you know, actual
marketers that we're doing a b m
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earlier that like that existed. But,
you know, around the time that Sandra
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started socializing it in writing books
about it, you know, because he sort of,
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you know, the father of Avian to most
of us with his, you know, working with
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the foot, my final I am of the
philosophy now that if you don't have a
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navy, um, strategy, you're not really
thinking strategically. Um, in addition,
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I do believe that a B M really isn't
that complicated. We overcomplicate it
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quite a bit, and it should be embedded
with within every B two b organization.
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Just it's not one size fits all thing.
You have to optimize it created for how
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it works within your organization, your
team size the market. But it really is
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just strategic marketing and
partnership with the sales team. I mean,
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it's it's not that complicated, though
it's complicated to implement. I will
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say that that's fun, I think towards
the end of this interview, since we
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kind of already know we're gonna be
talking about a bit, I think I'm gonna
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earmark to come back at the end of this
interview and ask you about some
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hypothetical situations. I'm like, OK,
but what about this situation? Would
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you still implement a B M? So we'll
cover those at the end. We have enough
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time, but let's get started with. You
said you've been in it for four or five
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years. Now, back when it was first,
when the at least the term was being
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coined. Tell us, how did you get
started? And how were you first
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introduced to it? So I definitely
stumbled into a B M on accident. I was
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with a software company and our CMO
that came in wanted to implement a B. M.
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He was, you know, new of the trend.
Heard of it decided that, you know, as
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a team, we were going to implement this
new strategy. So I called that kind of
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like the training wheels experience
where we we kind of figured it out as
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we went. I our entire marketing, you
know, team of you know, maybe 12 people.
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We're all we're all navigating that the
blind leading the blind. And that was
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like a crash course in what a B M waas
that I feel like a success of that
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experience was really building the
foundation of a B M. I was very
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fortunate to work with a very talented
marketing ops person, So I learned the
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ins and outs of tagging your accounts,
grading your accounts, tagging your
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contacts, personas all that, and it
really set me up for success with a B M.
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Is it all kind of started there and for
me personally, I when I when I went on
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to look for other jobs later on, wasn't
excited about, you know, the
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traditional demand general that I have
had come from. I realized how much a VM
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excited me on DSO. I kind of took a
leap of faith because this back then
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there were weren't really any jobs
called a B m anything, and I happened
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to find a company that was looking for
someone to build a B M who had
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experience, which was very rare at the
time. So that's, you know, kind of what
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led me down. The path of a VM is just
kind of discovering the passion for it.
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And I spent, you know, the last three
years building a bm foundation
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strategies at various companies. And so,
yeah, first role doing a B M success
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was the foundation work. And that set
me up for success later on so that when
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I did go and do it so low, I knew kind
of the deep down, you know, nitty
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gritty, important things you need to
focus on which data is king when it
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comes to a B. M. What was a failure
there, though, was definitely the sales
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enablement. And, you know, I think that
was just a symptom of us all figuring
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out what it was we were doing. And I've
definitely taken those lessons and
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carried them through, you know, other
implementations. And what's really
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interesting is that with the different
companies, we all started with
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different strategies. So the first
iteration was again the team all team
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approach. Everyone was all hands in,
and we definitely did more one too many.
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We started out with one too many and
later moved to someone toe ones. Okay,
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so give me, Give me some context. Like,
how big was the company? Like What was
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Ah, deal size looking like for our
targets? Yeah, like at this first
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company. You were implementing a B M
all the way through, like how much was
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like an average deal worth and how many
employees were at the company. Well, so
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in every organization I've implemented,
it's always been after enterprise level
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accounts. So it's always been 100
thousands. Yeah, so definitely in the
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thousands revenue and, you know,
minimum five million. Maybe 10 million.
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Eso really just not going after, I
don't think Yeah, I think that was
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probably the lowest revenue that we
went after. Um, the second company was,
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you know, significantly higher and
tended to be in the billions. So yeah,
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eso starting with that experience and
then the second company that I built
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the strategy at was me. Was my first
time writing solo on that. And we based
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on the company structure and the
objectives we started with a one toe
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one approach, and that was a whole
different experience and definitely
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positives and negatives for sure.
Learned I'd say that I really was able
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thio figure out how to be successful
with a 1 to 1 campaign like
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personalizing the hell out of it. So
some great success stories there, but
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again, I probably say one of the
struggles There was also sales
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Enablement. Looking back, you know at
the time probably wasn't significantly
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aware of the you know, what wasn't
working and where we were still
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struggling. But, you know, taking those
you know, those two different companies
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at my current company. We started our
strategy. We started with actually
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opposite. We started going one too few
and then building towards one toe one.
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But what was hugely successful and I
think there's probably a list of a lot
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of success is that my current company,
which I feel is by far the most
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successful A B M program that I've
implemented problem because of a lot of
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different lessons along the way. I
really focused on sales enablement
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really heavily focused on it. And I see
the massive impact that it has so
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define. How are you defining sales
enablement. Do you kind of mean like
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the area of, say, like activation
within the team framework? Are you
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talking about after activation all the
stuff that salespeople need toe carry
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it through to revenue Everything, to be
honest, educating them on what A B M is
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educating them on the framework um,
setting up honestly, things like daily
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the daily sales workflow, something
that I put together for sales reps that
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that have, quite frankly been, you know,
running a B m. You know, on their own
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without the marketing portion for years
and years. Account based selling when
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they would say, Well, Owen, accountant
to it, What do I dio you know? So like
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walking them through? Here's the
suggested actions. Here's what the data
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means just honestly. It's just just
it's just deciphering a new language.
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But they already speak, you know, they
already know what to do their sales.
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People were literally just translating
the language for them, and then they
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get it. So taking the time to set up
sort of a structure thio enable them on.
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This is what a B M is. These are The
reports that we have here is the data.
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Here's what it means. Here is why it's
important. Thio understand the pain
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points you know of these particular
accounts things like intent data that
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they have never worked with before that
kind of stuff and then another reason I
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feel like the enablement is so valuable
because unfortunately, sales is a
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revolving door, and you have, you know,
your SDRs even more so than your sales
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people. You have them come in and SDRs
or a lot younger, generally less
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experience. And so you kinda have to
set up a system of kind of training. So
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we've built into our on boarding in a B
M training, and then from there we have,
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you know, certain assets and documents
to kind of guide them through the
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process. We also have someone who's
dedicated specifically on my team as a
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sales liaison, and that has been day
and night in terms of, you know, my my
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past experience. So it sounds like it's
a lot more than sales enablement and
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that at least what my understanding of
a sales enablement is that sales
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enablement to me is like marketing for
sales. It's the marketing tools that
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sales gets in order to help them
achieve their goals. But what I'm here,
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you unpacking. It's like it's full on
like sales process. It's sales systems
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on boarding structure is essentially
all the stuff you need to scale the
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sales part of the organization. You're
you're digging into actually like
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building out sales. Yeah, I mean, I've
worked with sales enablement teams
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before, and so perhaps that's why I
coined it. Sales enablement because it
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feels very similar to what the sales
enablement teams, too. But I like to
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think of us as like a function, Ah,
function. Our team we're marketers were
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marketing. We're constantly running
campaigns. We're constantly measuring
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or looking at data. We're delivering
that data, but I really think that it
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is a big responsibility of the A B M
team to ensure that their teams are
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enabled and and know how to take action
on. That's. I think it's a growing pain
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for every implementation ever. I think
it's a there's a, you know, a period of
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six months to a year when you have a
navy. Um, strategy going off the ground
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doesn't mean you're not having impact
early on. Doesn't mean that six months
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to a year before you see you know,
pipeline or close one. I'm just saying
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it six months to a year before I think
that the flywheel, you know is going
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without any kind of stops. So you
mentioned that this is all the things
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you're mentioning. It's like it's deep
work. It's a lot of work. It takes a
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while to see the fruit of it while
you're working on all these things.
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Like, what are you doing in the short
term To kind of get things going to
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kind of keep leaders happy and that
they've they've hired you that they've
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started this a PM thing like, what are
some short term wins that you were able
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to produce? Yeah, well, I like to kind
of call the strategy at degreed a dual
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pronged approach strategy where we
built the foundation as we started
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campaigns. So we have, you know, almost
two on the train tracks, you know, two
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side by side. So because you can't go
into organization and say, Hey, I mean,
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some people do this, but you can't go
into organization and say, Hey, it's
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gonna be a year before you see impact.
That's not really gonna fly with the
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sea level, right? You're gonna need to
show some ones, but they do need to
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understand that foundation where it
takes a lot of time and then change
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Management does a swell. So working on
that the entire time scaling off our
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programs, we started early on with 1 to
1 too. Few more like air cover digital
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campaigns with our events team. We had
all of our accounts elected. And, you
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know, we got through, you know, the
account selection process fairly
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quickly. And then we're able to just
start running campaigns to create
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engagement, get them to events. This is
the world when events were happening in
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person on we had some pretty good, you
know, we had really, really the results
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with those. Actually, the early numbers
were, you know, at least 50% of all
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attendees were from A B M Target
Accounts s Oh, you know, just starting
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there and then the first the first
campaign really like true, you know,
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and to end a B M campaign that we did.
We ended up having to pivot it because
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of all of events getting canceled. I
mean, I'm sure other people for saw
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this, but I first saw as things started
to change. Okay, We're gonna need to
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shift digital events Team is going to
be impacted. I How can me and my team
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helped support the organization. So I
took immediately took our campaign and
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tripled he accounts. And that was our
first true a BM campaign at Degreed And
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we had pretty significant results with
that camp with that campaign generated
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$3 million you know, over a couple
months with with that effort and eso I
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mean, we had these little winds along
the way and I, you know, was very I
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made a lot of effort to communicate the
pipeline growth. One thing that I did I
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guess this is another good point was
communicating winds. And here's just
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kind of like another belief that I have
about a B. M. So we build up these
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dashboards. We built out reports to
track every campaign that we're running.
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But every single Monday for the last I
don't know, almost a year I've been
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looking at the numbers and what I do is
I look at a B M campaign impact and all
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a VM accounts, and I'm looking at all
the avian accounts because A B M is
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beyond the campaign. It is, you know,
the orchestration of marketing sales,
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working together, focusing on right
accounts, utilizing the data, going
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after the right accounts when they're,
you know, em queuing, showing
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engagement. And so every week I was
able to deliver not only campaign
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impact, but here's the impact of our
sales team working the right accounts.
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And we started seeing massive growth in
our pipeline, and within six months we
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had $50 million in pipeline focusing on
these accounts. And that's not a credit
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to the A B M team for existing. It's a
credit to the team's focusing on the
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right areas, utilizing the data that's
available in the sales doing their jobs
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because they were always going to go
after accounts, you know. So when we
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looked at the numbers and compared year
over year and then a VM versus non A B
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M year over year, we had three times
the amount of pipeline from previous on
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our A B M accounts. So just focusing on
the accounts show the three x on den
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when we looked at during the current
year. Compared to non avian accounts,
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we have three x opportunity size and
almost three x engagement, so I was
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able to deliver, you know, wins by just
showing them along the way. Here's the
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impact. Here's what's happening. Things
are growing, you know, it wasn't until
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probably this last quarter that we
started seeing or last quarter that we
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actually started seeing things close.
And that's been that's been fun because
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the plane is amazing, right? But like
three X pipeline and three X deal size
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and you're like, dang
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possible that you could hit three x
revenue growth. But you never You never
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know how things whittled down. But with
that much more engagement I'm like
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That's possible, but you'll see it
through over the next quarter. Way.
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Also recently determined that are
evacuated. Opportunity rate is 3%
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higher than RM Quell Thio opportunity,
which can result in a few million
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dollars a quarter. So I mean, that
alone is I think that the proof is
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there. I don't I don't think that we
need Thio. Continue Thio. Prove the
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value of it. I believe without question
that our leaders see it. Our sales
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people see it. It's just continuing to
what I say. Fill in the holes off. You
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know what's you know what's still not
working, what's still hard and with
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that I've developed SL agreements
between the team. So I recently just
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finished a Nestle agreement between my
str team and in that process identified,
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you know, holes Where can we improve
now? I'm moving. Thio, implement an s L
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A with our our sales directors. And
this is, you know, where I've been a
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degree for over a year. We've, you know,
seen great impact. But I'm I'm an
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example of continuous improvement. And
I mean, I'm going to continue to grow
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success. I'm continue to grow the team.
We've seen success, but I'm certainly
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not done. Yes, when you when Sometimes
you wish in marketing, you could get
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paid on commission Sometimes if you
could prove it better, right? You're
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like, Oh, man, I wish you were like
sales. Sometimes this could be very
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lucrative. Well, that's a whole another
can of worms because some some
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organizations, I mean, there's talk
about this in the peak community
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sometimes, uh, the topic of, you know,
marketing reporting under you know,
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this is marketing and sales reporting
under the same line of business,
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marketing and sales, having the same
goals. And you know, marketers, whether
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or not they're, you know, working not
necessarily on commission, but bonuses,
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bonus structures. I am a firm believer
in having the same goals of sales. I
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did have a role at one company where I
did move under the sales organization.
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And again, that's probably where my
kind of strong belief system and
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supporting your sales team is is
because I worked a lot closer with them.
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And that's when our goals were actually
aligned just based on the structure.
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And I came into degree and, you know, I
said, under marketing and because I
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mean, I leave the team. I said, I said
Our goals. But I look at I look at the
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sales revenue goals projected, and
that's how I set our goals for every
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year of Recorder E. Josh, what do you
think is the most irritating thing for
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B two B buyers right now, man? Logan, I
love talking to you about this. You
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know that the number one challenge
right now is that many customer facing
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teams in the B two B space right now
are forcing their potential buyers too,
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by the way that they want to sell.
Buyers don't wanna buy that way right
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now. They wanna, by the way they want
to buy. We need to enable those buyers.
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We call this buyer enablement at sales
reach. We need to enable those buyers
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to make better decisions quicker in a
comfortable environment that's more
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personalized for them to move forward
with that process. Dude, that's awesome.
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I couldn't agree more. Since I've been
using sales reach in my own sales
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process, it's allowed me to really
enable the buyer to move more quickly
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in really two ways. One, they don't
have to download a bunch of attachments.
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Aiken send them toe one page with the
proposal. Case studies Different
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resource is because, let's face it, the
proposal is just one part of the sales
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conversation and probably on Lee one
sales enablement piece of content that
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you're sending so it makes it easier on
them. And then the other thing is, you
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know, we're selling to our champions,
and then we're making them have to re
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give our pitch to the entire buying
committee. So one thing I do is put a
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custom 2 to 3 minute video on the top
of my sales reach page that says, Hey,
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here's all the resource is tie it back
to the conversation. Here's the
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proposal. Let me know if you have any
questions and it allows me to give a
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little bit of kind of a mini pitch to
the rest of the buying committee.
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Introduce myself, which helps me build
trust and credibility and helps the
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buyer not have to repeat the entire
pitch from scratch. So if anybody is
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looking to do the same thing in their
own sales process, I'd highly suggest
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they reach out to you and the team over
its sales. Reach for anybody listening.
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Just go to sales reach dot io. To talk
to Josh and the team makes sense for
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somebody walking in who's still pretty
fresh new to E B m like myself. What
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are some lessons or some mistakes
you've made in the past that you're
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like you would warn? Warn a Nubian?
Well, I mean lessons and mistakes e me.
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There's so many. What is so hard shoes?
Give me top three. Top three. Yeah, so
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I think like lesson number one is make
best friends with operations. Whether
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they're your marketing officer, your
sales ops, it depends on your structure
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at your company. But they say that you
know the number one failure of A B M is
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the lack of alignment between sales
marketing. Absolutely true. Another
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massive failure of A B M is not having
cooperation. Support were so data
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driven. I often, you know, show our
dashboards other people in the
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organization, and they're like, Oh my
God, these dashboards or oh, you have
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such great numbers because we have
access to it. It's a make it a priority
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because we aren't just marketing for
the sake of marketing, they have to
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measure the impact and especially with
a B M. When it is such a hard thing to
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measure when you're going through. Ah,
a deal that takes an entire year. You
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know, depending on how long you're
buying cycle is, there's gonna be a lot
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of different layers of that impact. And,
you know, like I don't really sit on
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the side of Oh, here's exactly where we
knew the deal close and it was this one,
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you know, this one action that they
took to me. I'm a believer in It's all.
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It's the entire experience from, you
know, from start to finish, and it is a
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shared, you know, it's a shared credit
to me between teams, and I'm just happy
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to support the sales. The sales team in
this I tell the sales team almost every
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time I talk to them are probably sick
of me saying this. We're here to
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support. You were literally here to
make you more money. That is what we're
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here to Dio. That's what my job is,
right for the company s Oh, yeah, a
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lesson in that is make best friends
with operations because you need data
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to succeed. If you're Salesforce's,
what did you do to make best friends
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with them? Well, I've been lucky, I'd
say, um, at my current role because I
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came onto, you know, the structures
change of it. But I came onto the team
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and I worked very closely with our
marketing ops person. And hey, ended up
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coming over into my team had an
interest in a B. M. So I actually
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created a hybrid ops role. So he's an
avian manager hybrid off. So he owns
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all of our avian mops. So I mean, it's
a very unique situation, but I would
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say, um, you know, like just like a B m,
you have to a B m internally, you know,
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get to know your get to know your team,
get to know your sales people like,
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make relationships. I think that
probably goes into another lesson is
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like make the relationships with your
sales people because you will be
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running into walls over and over and
over again. If you can't learn to kind
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of learn how they work, learn how they
sell. So if you work with five
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different sales people, one of them,
one of them prefers to have, you know,
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data delivered directly to him. One of
them needs to get walked through
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everything. One of them wants to have
templates. You know, it's figuring out
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how each sales person work, I think, is
gonna make your job easier in the long
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run. When I spent time doing a lot of
one toe ones at my last organization, I
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kind of just started to pay attention
to how certain salespeople operated.
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And one of them wanted to talk for 15
minutes of the pain of every call and
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just like what was going on his life
And, you know, just just personal
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conversation that cemented our
relationship so that he was a better
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partner. Another one needed to get
walked through it, and sometimes I
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would just sit on calls and just kind
of walk him through certain things or
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we would, you know, haven't asked of
him. And it was something that I
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couldn't dio I would only he could dio.
But what? I would sit on the call and
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answer your questions. A z he needed
them. So, I mean, I'd like to say you
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need a b m. Your organization. You know,
personalized. I was just thinking that
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same thing. It sounds like you're doing
one. The one to all the sales guys.
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Yeah. Really? Honestly. So be a decent
human. That Zalmay, my perspective. But
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on the same note, you also need to set
boundaries within your team. And, you
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know, if you have, you have leadership
support within your organization. Um,
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and you're not getting, you know, the
sales people. And you're not getting
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the right information for maybe once
one campaign or they're not engaging,
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then I'm blacklisting them. We have 80
something sales reps and I have a team
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of three. I have a lot of, you know,
impact to drive for this organization.
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So I'm gonna move on to someone who's
more engaged. So on the same exact same,
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you know, side it's be kind. Be
respectful. Get to know your people,
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but also ensure that your goals are in
the right place. Your focus in the
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right place and, you know, do your due
diligence to train and enable them on
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how to be good A B M support
salespeople, but work with the reps
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that are engaged in see value because
you can't force the value on them over
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time. Those stubborn people, they're
going to come asking for that treatment
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because they're seeing the success
elsewhere. They're hearing about the
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success elsewhere. So So what I hear
you saying is that you're making
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friends with everybody by just spending
time with them, getting to know them in
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doing so, you kind of get a feel for
how to serve them, how toe figure out
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what they want and then meet that
sometimes you're just listening year.
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Sometimes you're helping them meet
their quota by giving them step by step
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instructions. Sometimes you're being
whatever you need to be thio each sales
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person in order to help them win, and
for different people at different times,
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it means different things. But you you
did then go back and spend your the
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most amount of your time, energy and
attention on the ones who were taking.
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We're doing the most right. And then by
doing so, you created more success with
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them and made everybody else, uh made
it obvious that a b m and partnering
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with you was the route to go. Yeah, and
how I talked about that dual pronged
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approach with implementation. We almost
had the same. We almost had a dual
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pronged approach. When I came to like
the A B M campaign type, we started
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with one too few, and then we moved to
1 to 1. So we my whole thought process
375
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behind, starting with one too few was
to basically be able to support the
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global sales team. So I've done in
different ways. And I wanted Thio as
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the foundation was building to enable
the sales team to be self serving so
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that they could understand the concept
of a B, um, strategy. Have their
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accounts go after target accounts, Have
you no air cover campaigns? What have
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you building? Engagement. And then once
we kind of got that in motion, we
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started to be able to focus on one toe
once bigger wins. But everybody's
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winning here because we have the global
team access to a B. M. They are getting
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weekly updates not just from reports
but from our A B M sales leaves on. She
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sends the highest activity updates, you
know, based on our dashboard, the most
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important things, you know, we're kind
of sending out to them and then we're
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doing We're doing 1 to 1 campaigns with
our most engaged dress. So we also got
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to see as we started that broad
campaign effort, who was the engaged
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person who was excited, who cared whose
fault value who did never respond to a
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slack ever. That was what allowed us to
see who is gonna be a great candidate
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for once. Once, um, it's definitely
strengthened, like the and, say, the
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value of Abyan within the organization
the value of you know, my team across
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the organization. So much so that we
have just started a pilot. Are we just
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started, like launching using uber flip
sale streams. So where as a team
394
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committed to running 51 toe once a
quarter right now with late stage
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opportunities, this is what we're doing.
And of course, we could only scale five
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00:30:45.010 --> 00:30:49.550
right now, managing several their
campaigns were also enabling the sales
397
00:30:49.550 --> 00:30:53.690
team. Like you know, there's a lot
going on at all times. That's the dream.
398
00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:57.790
The whole thing, right? Hard to do. But
once you got it running, it becomes a
399
00:30:57.790 --> 00:31:02.060
machine, right? Yeah, That's exactly
what I like to refer to it as a machine.
400
00:31:02.070 --> 00:31:07.910
I think about it. E talk to my team
about that all the time. Eyes that were
401
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.750
continuously running campaigns. We
wanna be touching all of our a B and
402
00:31:11.750 --> 00:31:15.230
the counts as much as we can at all
times. So about full funnel approach
403
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:21.740
where we obviously are built to scale
801 ones. But we can handle this. Money
404
00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:25.330
went to one's right now we have this
money, went to views and then we're
405
00:31:25.330 --> 00:31:29.980
actually partnering with our demand jin
team for our one too many that top more,
406
00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:34.280
that top of funnel, which is a
beautiful thing because I, like Thio,
407
00:31:34.290 --> 00:31:37.250
refer to that as like the marriage
between, you know, demand Gen. And A. B
408
00:31:37.250 --> 00:31:45.790
M. And that's actually how I like to
think of is a B M. A. B X is a B M to a
409
00:31:45.790 --> 00:31:50.170
B X and like Oh, no, another Another
acronym with Save the Ax. I like to
410
00:31:50.170 --> 00:31:59.310
refer toa a B X well, to backtrack. A B
X to me is what it should be called a B
411
00:31:59.310 --> 00:32:03.170
X ray, be account based market Arab
count base. Everything is what it
412
00:32:03.170 --> 00:32:08.580
should have always been. I think that
many of us see that in retrospect, but
413
00:32:08.590 --> 00:32:15.040
today, because we have a B M A B X is
to me when you've successfully
414
00:32:15.050 --> 00:32:20.840
penetrated the organization within
within a B M strategy. Andi. That's
415
00:32:20.840 --> 00:32:26.090
where we are now where we are. We have
our various parts of the organization
416
00:32:26.090 --> 00:32:32.340
that are running their own campaigns
thio our target accounts. And so that's,
417
00:32:32.350 --> 00:32:38.260
you know, definitely a more mature A B
M strategy. So it's a very exciting
418
00:32:38.260 --> 00:32:42.710
time. I feel like for where we're on
the organization, getting to full
419
00:32:42.710 --> 00:32:50.600
funnel a B M um, a B M to a B X, and,
uh, I definitely it's the furthest I've
420
00:32:50.610 --> 00:32:55.650
gone within a VM strategy, and I'm very
excited and I'm proud to be where we
421
00:32:55.650 --> 00:33:01.000
are. I couldn't have done it without a
team, that's for sure. Absolutely. A B
422
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:05.460
X is something I've only heard from one
other person eyes. I think his name is
423
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:10.150
John Miller from the CMO of Demand base.
He used that term as a B X, and I think
424
00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:13.730
he's actually working on a new book
called A B X or something along those
425
00:33:13.730 --> 00:33:18.280
lines. I'm looking forward to getting
when it comes out, so I definitely,
426
00:33:18.290 --> 00:33:22.670
totally makes sense. I understand why
they named it a B M in the beginning
427
00:33:22.670 --> 00:33:25.710
because, like, sales was like already
there, and they're like, No, we need to
428
00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:30.400
make the marketers feel like they get
to own this too, right? So hence it was
429
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.290
called marketing, But it kind of threw
us off when you were implementing
430
00:33:34.290 --> 00:33:38.120
because, well, its marketing, it's, you
know, in marketing does this. And
431
00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:42.080
that's where a lot of times you hear
sales sales. People refer to Obama's
432
00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:46.850
campaign. I'm like, No, it's not a
campaign. We do campaigns, Um, it's a
433
00:33:46.860 --> 00:33:50.350
you know, it's a team effort, so I'm
just constantly kind of having to
434
00:33:50.350 --> 00:33:54.730
communicate that and refreeze and
explain that. But I'd be curious just
435
00:33:54.730 --> 00:34:00.000
to hear what others say about a BX,
because it's not like an omnipresent
436
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:05.080
term a B a B X. I think it will
eventually replace a B m in the
437
00:34:05.080 --> 00:34:10.190
terminology. But for now, I referred to
as, like a maturity maturity level for
438
00:34:10.190 --> 00:34:13.409
sure. Yeah, And it makes sense that
that would be the evolution, especially
439
00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:16.580
if you start to think of like, c X
customer experience. You're like, well,
440
00:34:16.580 --> 00:34:20.750
our customers and account more than an
individual, right, because people will
441
00:34:20.750 --> 00:34:24.130
come and go in the account. But yet you
have to keep the relationship with the
442
00:34:24.130 --> 00:34:28.070
account. So even customer experience is
gonna be different, Which is why a B X
443
00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:33.280
makes sense. Still, we understand it
started with, like, more targeted ads.
444
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:36.480
In the beginning, I mean, Terminus
Demand base. All those guys were
445
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.730
targeted ad platforms, and now they're
full systems. But that's where it
446
00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:44.030
started. But I'm excited to see where
it goes for sure. Now, one thing you
447
00:34:44.030 --> 00:34:46.400
said at the beginning, which I said I
would eventually bring it back to you.
448
00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:51.820
You would recommend a B M should be the
standard strategy for B two B Pretty
449
00:34:51.820 --> 00:34:55.600
much every time you still stand by that,
something to throw out some like Well,
450
00:34:55.600 --> 00:35:01.090
what about these guys? Okay, we'll see
you guys. Okay. Um, no. I mean,
451
00:35:01.090 --> 00:35:05.470
generally, a B m fits the best with
when you go after enterprise level
452
00:35:05.470 --> 00:35:10.840
accounts. But there's to me. Why
wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you target
453
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.050
accounts even if you were going after
small to medium businesses? Eso go
454
00:35:15.050 --> 00:35:18.400
ahead, let me see. So and that's that's
where I'm going is with small,
455
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.330
especially people is selling to small
businesses. So especially your B two b
456
00:35:22.330 --> 00:35:29.280
sas who are selling 10 to $30
subscriptions, you know, So you're
457
00:35:29.290 --> 00:35:34.430
you're even You're a are are on like
something like buffer. While they can
458
00:35:34.430 --> 00:35:40.130
have enterprise level packages that are
like $100 a month Whoa, that's big for
459
00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:43.860
them. But generally, most of them are
like 10 $15 a month kind of customers.
460
00:35:43.870 --> 00:35:48.360
So in that kind of case, I've always
wondered, Like like a B M. That's gonna
461
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:52.070
be hard, because the best you're going
to do with a B M is one too many. But
462
00:35:52.070 --> 00:35:55.200
even then, there's so many small
businesses and freelancers and
463
00:35:55.200 --> 00:35:59.880
consultants that could use Buffer that
it seems like a B M is a little bit too
464
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:04.190
much, and it would be better to use a
more general like hub spot inbound
465
00:36:04.190 --> 00:36:08.050
marketing strategy for someone like
like a buffer the social media
466
00:36:08.050 --> 00:36:14.940
management tool out there. I mean, I'd
say that you can still use an A B m
467
00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:19.650
strategy by targeting the accounts you
want to go after, even if it's a
468
00:36:19.650 --> 00:36:27.600
smaller revenue generating, um,
contract. That means maybe you don't do
469
00:36:27.600 --> 00:36:31.770
one toe once you're not, you know,
spending three months building out of 1
470
00:36:31.770 --> 00:36:35.650
to 1, you know, personalized campaign.
But you're still focusing on those
471
00:36:35.650 --> 00:36:41.060
target accounts. You're still reading
the signals of engagement seeing where
472
00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:44.860
you can because, I mean, the company
like that's still gonna wanna grow. I'm
473
00:36:44.860 --> 00:36:48.790
sure they're gonna run to retain their
customers. And one very interesting
474
00:36:48.790 --> 00:36:53.780
thing about A B M is most of the
community really only talks about
475
00:36:53.780 --> 00:37:00.690
prospect, But a B M is really well
served for customers. You can continue
476
00:37:00.700 --> 00:37:06.390
and lengthen your relationships by
establishing a deeper relationship with
477
00:37:06.390 --> 00:37:11.700
your customers and doing simple things
like direct mail swag. You know, like
478
00:37:11.700 --> 00:37:17.670
that for a customer really strengthens
your relationship, feeling valued and,
479
00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:22.430
you know, getting information that's
relevant to your account. I still think
480
00:37:22.430 --> 00:37:27.680
that there's a place for it. I just I'm
a firm believer that a B M is not one
481
00:37:27.680 --> 00:37:33.190
size fits all. It does not fit in a box.
You have to create an optimize your
482
00:37:33.190 --> 00:37:39.310
strategy for your market, your goals,
your team size, your sales team. It's
483
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:45.450
all under, you know, consideration. But
to not use data to support your efforts
484
00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:50.750
and to not look at your target accounts
that, to me doesn't make sense. E mean,
485
00:37:51.230 --> 00:37:54.830
I don't know. I mean, at some point,
it's kind of like Okay, well, this with
486
00:37:54.830 --> 00:38:01.350
a small annual return for each customer,
you could run a one to many. But I'm
487
00:38:01.350 --> 00:38:05.190
like the one too many starts to become
so many that I'm like. But now, now it
488
00:38:05.190 --> 00:38:09.230
just looks like what I was doing and B
to C before. Yeah, I guess I was
489
00:38:09.240 --> 00:38:14.810
different when it comes to like those
kinds of campaigns I communicate and
490
00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:20.340
I'm kind of advocate that you're a bm
comes into play during the sales
491
00:38:20.340 --> 00:38:25.990
portion. Um, if you're you're one too
many is really, like, you know, more of
492
00:38:25.990 --> 00:38:31.420
a bolt on demand. Gen right where
you're you're kind of selecting based
493
00:38:31.420 --> 00:38:35.960
on groupings of you know, the market
like financial services or, you know,
494
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.940
health care. You have more general
messaging. It's not all personalized,
495
00:38:40.220 --> 00:38:46.050
but they're getting something that's
specific to them. Where I ask for it to
496
00:38:46.050 --> 00:38:51.220
come into play is on the sales side, so
we're going to create engagement here
497
00:38:51.220 --> 00:38:54.570
with more general messaging, thes
marketing tactics. They're going to
498
00:38:54.570 --> 00:39:00.460
cover a broad group of accounts. You as
a salesperson need Thio. You know,
499
00:39:00.460 --> 00:39:04.630
understand enough about the accounts,
enough of the buyers and personalize
500
00:39:04.630 --> 00:39:09.260
your communications. So it's not to me.
When I think about it, I'm like, No,
501
00:39:09.270 --> 00:39:13.450
that's not a B M O. That's what IBM I'm
like. A B M can be here or here or
502
00:39:13.450 --> 00:39:17.990
anywhere in between eso. That's where
I'm like. That's the opportunity you
503
00:39:17.990 --> 00:39:22.980
have to personalize. It is the sales
experience. It's interesting, but what
504
00:39:22.980 --> 00:39:27.770
if they don't have a sales team? And
it's self serve? Is that where you draw
505
00:39:27.770 --> 00:39:34.000
the line? Trying to find the edges like
the fence of what I can define is A B M
506
00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:38.270
actually do think it's a very helpful
term. I find that the term starts to
507
00:39:38.270 --> 00:39:44.180
lose somewhat of its value if it's set
to broadly and it becomes too many
508
00:39:44.180 --> 00:39:47.240
things. So I'm trying to find the edges
myself a someone that's still new to
509
00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:53.690
the space where a B m stops I I can see
that perspective and understand it. I
510
00:39:53.690 --> 00:39:58.800
do think more broadly, I think, in
general, cause I've done all these
511
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:06.550
different like a B m on the spectrum.
But where to me, What a B M is in its
512
00:40:06.550 --> 00:40:10.740
simplicity and where you, you know,
draw the line around. It is you're
513
00:40:10.740 --> 00:40:15.360
using target accounts, your your
accounts Attardi. Maybe you don't have
514
00:40:15.370 --> 00:40:20.610
ah, data provider, you know, putting
grading and scoring your accounts. You
515
00:40:20.610 --> 00:40:24.330
don't need that. I've done it without
that too. I've done like the gloom
516
00:40:24.330 --> 00:40:28.630
Popsicle sticks strategy bill, where we
manually are building out a scoring
517
00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:34.390
methodology. Um, but even your sales
team, I mean, I mean I mean, maybe a
518
00:40:34.390 --> 00:40:38.680
lot of people are going to disagree
with me on this, but I am don't believe
519
00:40:38.680 --> 00:40:42.740
in, like, so much of our lines, it's
like target accounts. You know your
520
00:40:42.740 --> 00:40:48.100
market. Go after them, be personalized.
It doesn't mean everybody gets a hand
521
00:40:48.100 --> 00:40:53.570
written note, but level of
personalization used data. Those air
522
00:40:53.570 --> 00:40:59.470
the things for me, and you can grow it
significantly from there. But you can
523
00:40:59.470 --> 00:41:04.330
still have a level of a B M effort, and
you could still see success just by
524
00:41:04.330 --> 00:41:08.390
adding on a few different things. I
think the general rule, what I'm seeing
525
00:41:08.390 --> 00:41:12.040
now and I'm still trying to have a
different examples of my mind like
526
00:41:12.040 --> 00:41:15.190
buffer is like on the bottom, as far as
like, the kind of product they sell.
527
00:41:15.190 --> 00:41:20.720
And it's really inexpensive or like a
balsamic is a one time wire framing app.
528
00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:25.000
They sell to businesses, and they only
sell it for one time, $80. So that's
529
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.790
really low on, like buffer that you
might be able to retain people for a
530
00:41:27.790 --> 00:41:31.360
couple of years and earn more. So those
would be like on the low end. And then
531
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.760
you have someone like Infusion Soft,
which is a CRM that sells to small
532
00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:39.500
businesses. But generally you're
looking at a are of, you know, 5 to
533
00:41:39.500 --> 00:41:43.960
$10,000 and even then I'm like like it
doesn't pay for itself at that point.
534
00:41:43.970 --> 00:41:48.300
If you have, they have a sales force,
for sure, and at that point, it starts
535
00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:52.190
to become like, maybe, maybe, I think
when you start to get to the tens of
536
00:41:52.190 --> 00:41:56.240
thousands and it becomes obvious, you
know, hundreds of thousands like Why?
537
00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:00.420
Why are you doing anything else but
this? Uh, of course it's fuzzy because
538
00:42:00.430 --> 00:42:04.670
every company is a little bit different.
Every company has slightly different
539
00:42:04.670 --> 00:42:08.250
things, like if your lifetime customer
value is really long, even if you don't
540
00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:10.950
make it a lot on the front, and then it
might still be worth to do it. If if
541
00:42:10.950 --> 00:42:16.740
you're your annual return isn't big,
right? So it's gonna differed on
542
00:42:16.740 --> 00:42:19.960
everyone's. There's not a hard line.
You're right. But I'm still trying to
543
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:24.480
get a sense, even for myself. As I
coach customers and using podcasting
544
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.510
for a B M. I'm still trying to get a
sense for like, which ones do I push
545
00:42:27.510 --> 00:42:30.350
more towards that way versus just using
the podcast for a good content
546
00:42:30.350 --> 00:42:35.090
marketing? Yeah, there's definitely I
mean is I feel like it's a rare
547
00:42:35.090 --> 00:42:40.510
occurrence when I say that's not a B M,
and I do think that there are plenty of
548
00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:45.100
a B M like a B M leaders out there that
might disagree with me who do feel a
549
00:42:45.100 --> 00:42:50.160
little bit more, you know, structural
about it. But I think because I've been
550
00:42:50.160 --> 00:42:53.740
tasked with implementing so many
different times in so many different
551
00:42:53.740 --> 00:43:00.830
ways that I've just come to believe
that you can choose your own adventure,
552
00:43:00.830 --> 00:43:05.980
so to speak. You know, you have so many
B to B companies out there trying to
553
00:43:05.980 --> 00:43:12.680
figure out how to do a B. M. And I just
don't think that you need Thio look at
554
00:43:12.680 --> 00:43:17.810
a picture and say That's where I have
to be. I think that you can get there,
555
00:43:18.600 --> 00:43:22.610
but you need to be okay with starting
somewhere. And if you're not set up
556
00:43:22.610 --> 00:43:28.220
structurally, then you have to ask
yourself for your business, what makes
557
00:43:28.220 --> 00:43:33.170
sense and are there elements of a B M?
That makes sense. So maybe the full
558
00:43:33.170 --> 00:43:38.220
fledged jbm strategy doesn't work for
ah smaller you know, smaller business
559
00:43:38.220 --> 00:43:44.100
with, you know, smaller. You know Ahrar.
But can you take the data and can you
560
00:43:44.100 --> 00:43:48.020
target your accounts? And if you don't
have a sales force, then you know you
561
00:43:48.020 --> 00:43:51.690
can. You do potentially use your
marketing automation to personalize
562
00:43:51.690 --> 00:43:56.460
your emails I'm not personally a fan of
using marketing automation, but I do
563
00:43:56.460 --> 00:44:00.850
know people, you know. So we have. We
have our email team and we leverage
564
00:44:00.850 --> 00:44:05.040
them as a resource you're sending.
Emails include avian accounts, but I do
565
00:44:05.040 --> 00:44:08.880
know people that utilize it within
their strategy. I just prefer to use
566
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:13.830
the umbrella approach where let the
other team's efforts trickle down. Let
567
00:44:13.830 --> 00:44:19.120
us focus on the big wins. Fantastic.
This has been a fun conversation of fun
568
00:44:19.120 --> 00:44:23.340
little back and forth there at the end.
Amber Working people learn more from
569
00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:29.230
you and find you online in orderto pick
your brain more on a B M. Well, best
570
00:44:29.230 --> 00:44:34.250
place is gonna be linked in my profile
on LinkedIn to send me a message. Other
571
00:44:34.250 --> 00:44:39.730
than that, P community is another place
that I'm at often. It is a community
572
00:44:39.730 --> 00:44:46.000
for marketers trying to get 1% better
every week, and I co lead in a BM group
573
00:44:46.010 --> 00:44:50.350
within it. So that's where lots and
lots of avia MERS air huddle, talking
574
00:44:50.350 --> 00:44:55.290
about all things a B M. So either of
those two places fantastic and I will
575
00:44:55.290 --> 00:44:58.730
include links in the show notes. The
amber is linked in profile as well as
576
00:44:58.730 --> 00:45:02.800
peak community for anybody interested
in checking out either of those places.
577
00:45:03.190 --> 00:45:06.900
Amber, thank you again. So much for
joining me on the show today. It was my
578
00:45:06.900 --> 00:45:07.910
pleasure. Thank you.
579
00:45:11.390 --> 00:45:14.750
For the longest time, I was asking
people to leave a review of B two B
580
00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:18.760
growth in apple podcasts. But I
realized that was kind of stupid,
581
00:45:18.770 --> 00:45:24.200
because leaving a review is way harder
than just leaving a simple rating. So
582
00:45:24.200 --> 00:45:28.000
I'm changing my tune a bit. Instead of
asking you to leave a review, I'm just
583
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:32.180
gonna ask you to go to BBB growth in
apple podcasts. Scroll down until you
584
00:45:32.180 --> 00:45:36.140
see the ratings and reviews section and
just tap the number of stars you wanna
585
00:45:36.140 --> 00:45:41.940
give us No review necessary. Super easy.
And I promise it will help us out a ton.
586
00:45:41.950 --> 00:45:45.990
If you want a copy of my book content
based networking, just shoot me a text
587
00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.180
after you leave the rating and I'll
send one your way. Text me at
588
00:45:49.190 --> 00:45:53.880
4074903328 Do you