Transcript
WEBVTT
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Often what people say and what their
brains tons is quite different. All right,
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welcome back to be tob growth.
I'm Eric Hastolic, founder and CEO
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of postal dot io and your host
for today's episode. Today is our first
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of three segments in postals neuro marketing
series here on B Tob Growth. In
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this episode we start the series off
by helping you understand what neural marketing is
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and why you should care, helping
me navigate this conversation. Today I'm thrilled
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to be joined by Dr Michael Platt, who's an endoubt professor of neuroscience,
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psychology and marketing at the University of
Pennsylvania, and Dr Platt's been for featured
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in work in The in York Times
Washington Post, while she journal Newsweek,
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National Geographic, as well as a
bunch of different television stations and shows.
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Dr Platt, how you doing today? I'm great. It's great to be
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here. It's a beautiful sunny day
and Philadelphia, where it's always sunny,
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that's awesome. Go Eagles, big
big EELS. All right, let's let's
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get into it here. Tell once
you tell the listener is a little bit
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about your background and what got you
into the field of neural marketing. Yeah,
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so I think my background is pretty
unusual. In fact, I don't
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have any paper credentials in any of
the field or departments in which I'm currently
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employed. So my undergraduate th agree
was in anthropology, and the reason I
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ended up in anthropologies because I was
interested in human nature. So basically,
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what makes us tick, what makes
some people take similarly there's or differently from
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others, and what makes us tick
in ways that sometimes are similar and sometimes
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different to the way that animals take? So anthropologies kind of brought us lens
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to to look at human beings through
from the perspective of culture and biology and
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history. And then my PhD was
an anthropology as well, though while on
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that path, on that journey,
I end up moving into psychology, although
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m degree wasn't formally in psychology size
and I was working on trying to understand
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basically how to monk these think and
how do they think about the things in
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their environment and how do they find
their way back to food? By the
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time I've finished at my thesis,
I realized what I really wanted to understand
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was how all this happens in the
brain, and so that I did a
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post doctoral fellowship that Yu in our
science and that's where, when I was
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working with my mental all glamsery,
we started cooking up a lot of the
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early work in neuroeconomics, basically taking
the simplest formal accoms of economics and putting
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those into experimental designs where we could
try to identify the ways in which the
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brain might do code simple things like
value or risk and and then that was
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kind of part of the foundations of
the field of neuroeconomics, which was a
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presaged neural marketing. So you know, the goals on neuro economics will basically,
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you know, to take take them
at matical forms of economics and approaches
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of Behavior Economics and experimental psychology and
and marry those two neuroscience techniques that allow
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you to look under the hood in
the brain. And the goal was to
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find out how we make decisions.
And so it was really about basic understanding
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on the one hand, and also, to some degree, that trying to
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validate economic models which postulate a lot
of things like, oh, there's this
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thing called utility that lives in your
head and it behaves like a common currency
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that allows us to weigh apples and
oranges, and it's like that. The
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nermal marketing comes along a little bit
later, because it's basically saying, well,
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now that we have some understanding of
what drives decision making, can we
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use some the same tools in a
very applied way to understand, say,
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consumer decision making and in so doing
develop some are wise and lift by taking
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that data and that knowledge right and, you know, using using that to
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do better advertising, for example,
or to you know whatever. So you
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know, that's kind of the pathway. I mean my you know, my
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actual faculty positions. I started out
a duke in the Ner Biology Department as
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an assistant professor twenty years ago,
teaching medical students, doing basic science,
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and then along the way I spent
fifteen years ado, which we're wonderful,
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but my colleagues got metal and I
started center from their economic studies at Duke,
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which was one of the first,
I think one of the first two
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or three in the country of the
world. Yeah, and along the way
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I wentever, and along the way
I mean in my final position at do
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that was director of the instucent brain
sciences and and that kind of put me
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on the path. We were into
the warden because my task as instry directors
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to try to not only connect people
who do in your science across. Yeah,
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there's connect your science to other decipines
like business, law, arts,
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humanities and you know, which is
a pretty heavy lift. There's some pretty
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strong cultural and language varies are but
that's where it starts to get really exciting,
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because those are is that are had
been relatively untouched. And so five
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years ago I had a great opportunity
to come here to Warton and pen yeah
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and build those bridges institutionally, to
take substantial resources and go big. You
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know, I know they would.
I don't think they realized how big we
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are going to go. But really
go big is and and we decided to
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be very ambitious and very broad.
You know what we're doing at Warton,
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which we call the warden science initiative, which is now part of the analytics
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at work. So it's all of
the science and Beta side. A business
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is just in is just in the
business school. That's squarely in the business
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school, although we partner directly with
folks all across campus, from Med school
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to arts and Sciences, psychology,
computer science, engineering specially interesting and we've
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created this, you know, this
community where you know, you don't have
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to, you know, say you're
in marketing or say you're in management.
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We yeah, I think some of
the biggest banks for the book that we're
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going to get this management. You
don't have to become in their scientists.
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You can. We can partner you
with folks you know on campus so that
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you can bring your respective expertise together
to apply to a problem. And that's
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what we do with our educational mission
to where we have a curriculum for undergraduates
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and MBA's. We have a minor
under development for undergraduates in basically applied in
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our science for business and one probably
a major on the way for as as
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well. More than five hundred students
in our student society, which is homegrown.
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So it's really incredible how much interest
there. It was latent, you
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know, students were trying to kind
of build their still sets on their own,
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picking from here and there's the college, and we will consumer behavior a
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little, you know, yeah,
on whatever. And now we have organized
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the song and we've provide a lot
of content and you know, we're we're
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literally minting students to over the last
four years we've gone off to work for
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deal sooner they gone off to work. For sure, Google, facebook to
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essentially do your marketing. Do Yeah, consumers, consumers, ychology. So,
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you know, it's really interesting.
In speaking with some of your colleagues,
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you know they brought up some of
the differences and similarities between the technology
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push and AI. Right, so
understanding, how can computers essentially understand our
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behaviors and then recommend the ways that
we can influence people within the business and
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the marketing world or verse, Actually
Understanding The human brain and what is already
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inherently built inside your brain and then
influencing people through their ununconscious behavior and how,
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if you can bring those two together, it becomes extremely powerful. And
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to take a step back, I
know a lot of our listeners probably are
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thinking, oh my gosh, like
how can I use this practically? This
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sounds like an academia, you know, discussion. So I think to put
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it very basically, to take what
good mention is that it's really the understanding
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of the brain, how you make
decisions, economic decisions, your risks,
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your risk profile inside a risking value
profiles inside the brain. And then,
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if that's neuroeconomics and understanding how you
make those decisions, subconsciously. Then neuro
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marketing is really taking all of that
data that you've mapped essentially within your brain,
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and how do you how do you
create an opportunity for brands to leverage
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that already existing data that's in your
brain, or just that that the natural
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behavior of someone? Is that a
fair yeah, I think that. I
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think that's a pretty fair characterization.
I mean neural marketing, I think is
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important. It can be powerful for
several reasons. I mean one I mean,
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which is, I think, the
easiest to grasp, is you can
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kind of provide you can provide a
scientific foundation for choosing one way of doing
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something versus another. Right, let's
just say there's there's two theories in marketing
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about how how people respond to brands
and and you don't know which one is
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right. So you can go to
the ner science and say, Oh,
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it turns out if you look under
the hood, you scan somebody's brain,
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it turns out it's this and not
that. So that can help you to
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make them more educated choice and I
think it helps to validate the application of
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resources. Putting money into one thing
versus another easier to embrace. I can
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say, well, this is the
way it works in the brain. So
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why wouldn't you? You know,
we when you take that approach, you
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know, I think, the brain
right. That's right. And the second
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is one where you want to go
a step further, which is to say,
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well, we can actually acquire some
data, new data, to help
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us understand, say, the impact
of this brand strategy on our customers or
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to develop a different metric that is
not based on self report, which is
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the standard way of testing things in
markings. Is Ask people questions. What
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people are you thinking about? What
made you buy? is how much to
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like it, etcetera. Often what
people say and what their brains to us
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is quite different. Thankful there said. There's a the time. Does that
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happen where you know you're doing a
user testing and they're saying one thing but
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they're thinking another. Is that like
we talk of fifty percent or I mean,
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that's a I think where you don't
know yet because they're you know,
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of course it's so very much context
dependent and sure there are different market segments
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and think that they're really that that
are really different to reflect the real differences
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in the way people's brains work.
But I'll give you an example of churn
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in the study that we recently completed
and papers under review. And so this
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is a study that was aimed at
kind of testing part of the notion that
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is which is very common in brand
strategy, which is that people kind of
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think about brands using the same harder
in your heads that they used to think
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about people, like humanized brands.
So we give them personality, traits,
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its sexy brand, created brand,
etcetera. We develop relationship and ships with
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brands love paid and we decide to
take that one step further and to say,
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well, if we really do develop
and these relationships with brands that are
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essentially piggybacking on hardware that was already
that already evolved to support the way that
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we relate to other people and there's
a hardwired circuit in our brains that just
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does that, okay, then we
ought to be able to see responses to
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in the brain that look a lot
like the empathy and the emotional attachments that
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we that we have with our loved
ones. Okay, so that's sort of
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the idea. So what we did
is we brought people to the lab who
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were what we do is we focused
on smartphones, because those are the thing
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that people seem to care a lot
about they always have it on them,
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spend a lot of money on it, constantly upgrading an extension of them,
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extension of themselves. And we focused
on the two biggest players in the US
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market, which are apple and Samsung. So we got obligate, you know,
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apple users and only these apple products. We get Samsung using who don't
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use apple products. We brought them
to the lab and we scan their brains
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while they were getting their heat,
reading information about things that were happening to
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either their smartphone brand of the other
one. That would say some Apple Profits
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Sword or, you know, Samsung
battery blew up on a plane or jobs
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died or whatever. So it sort
of good in bad news, with the
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prediction that, you know, if
you're an apple iphone user and you really
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have you really relate to apple as
if it's a member of your family,
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you'd see what we called rainings,
if you'd see responses in reward related there
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is when something good happen apple,
you see responses and pain related there is,
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and you see something bad happen apple, which is exactly what you see.
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Say If your child, you know, if you saw your child,
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yeah, or yours, about and
so we ran this experiment. First of
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all, I had to say that
all the apple users expressed verbally empathy for
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apple, like they said, I
felt good. You know that. You
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rated. You know they rated feeling
very good for good news by Apple,
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very bad for bad news by Apple, and not so much so for Samsung,
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which is what you'd expect. Samsung
users kind of interesting. They expressed
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empathy for Samson. I feel good
good news about a Samsung, excuse,
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bad news about same side. They
also evidence a little reverse empathy for apple,
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which is important to the story.
Like they said, they felt a
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little bit good when you hear bad
news about apple, if a little bit
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that when they were good news at
which is important for the story. Because,
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okay, so here's here's there.
Both groups of customers expressed empathy for
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their own break. Yeah, okay, saying they really really feel something for
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their brain. So we scan their
brains. When we finally found exactly that
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in apple customers brains, so boom, you know, reward centers are active
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when there's good news about apple and
boom, pain centers are active when there's
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a bad news about apple. Nothing
for Sampson. What happened? We look
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at Samsun, good news about Samsun, nothing about Samsung, nothing. So
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there's even though they said they felt
something, and I don't know where,
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that they thought they felt it and
they didn't really or they were overstating it
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because they were being asked right,
and that's a big thing that we know
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of in psychology is that people respond
to the demands of the experimenter if they
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think they're being asked a question for
a reason. I don't look like an
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idiot like yeah, I think I'm
supposed to feel something for my brand.
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So so their brains should absolutely no
response to Samson. The only thing they
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showed was evidence of this reverse ampathy
for Apple. So you see a little
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bit of like the word, activity
for bad news about an apple, and
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will be really interesting Hay, and
activity for good news by Apple. And
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we went further with this, which
just to look at some of the kind
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of social brain that circuit try that's
involved. And basically apple users brains just
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you know, their social brain network
is lit up when thinking about apple at
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all. So the yeah of like
a member of their family. That's exactly
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what you'd expect and is very selfrelevant. And when you see any of that
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in Samsung. So let's take on
message. Take on message is that the
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things that apple has been doing for
the last twenty five years or longer,
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which is the really humanize apple and
to build a connection with the customers right
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where they do everything through apple.
The apple store is is one stop shopping
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community experienced all the people who work
there where the same shirts, literally,
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yeah, which the same color shirts, which we know helps to build a
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sense of community. Those things have
really, really worked and whatever Samson is
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has or has not done has not
built this strong sense of the community.
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Like I'm part of the Samsun truck. So this is this is extremely interesting
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when it comes to the be tob
world and so a lot of times,
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you know, the research that we've
seen in our marketing is really focus on
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the BTC. Candidly, you know, those those companies generally have a tremendous
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amount of funds to to analyze people's
brains to see what the reactions are.
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Most of the the academic research is
going towards these brands, because it's brands
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that everybody knows. But to actually
take a look at how you can take
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this data and take this research and
put it towards your own BEDB marketing strategy,
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which are listeners today. What I've
found is that you have user testing.
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That is very important in product development
and you know, whenever you're building
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something in the business to business world, specifically hardware software, you know things
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that people, the businesses used to
get their jobs done and be more productive.
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You have this testing that you go
through and a lot of that testing
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is testing messaging, testing workflows,
U wise kind of all the things that
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go into that that product. And
then marketing a lot of times will not
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test messaging. It'll test messaging internally, but it will it might do some
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AB testing of messaging out externally to
see what converts more effectively. But very
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rarely do I see companies taking it
to the next level of saying okay,
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like I how do I build this
brand and how do I provide content for
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customers to have as much empathy for
me as they do their family? And
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that's a very interesting concept when it
comes to bed be marketing. You know,
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you're a business. Your Business is
generally by businesses, right, so
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you have like assets that are transferring
in the sales process, but salespeople,
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good sales people who are an extensive
marketing generally can develop empathy because they have
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a human connection right with people.
So bedb marketing can always it. I
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honestly think that the best be to
be marketing and sales companies. They have
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incredible content that helps the salespeople become
epathetic and actually help their customers create relationships
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that are trusting, that are transparent, that are lasting, that have empathy
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and ultimately that provide value. Right. So I think there's a lot of
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information that's out there that can be
provided to these be tob marketers. That
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has been done on the BBC,
but I'd love to get your thoughts on
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kind of what you've what you've picked
up within you your research. I'm sure
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you understand it kind of how the
B tob sales and marketing work clothes.
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But what are some practical applications that
be tob marketers can use in neuro marketing?
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If they don't have access to a
lab, right, they can't test
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their their subjects and there there,
there their folks that they're doing these message.
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You tell me a little bit about
how they actually can use neural marketing
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themselves? Well, here's the other
thing about neuro marketing. So it is
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a very young discipline, a very
young field. Maybe it is. It's
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been around a decade, but not
really. Seriously, it's a really just
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in the last replace your ins wow, I mean and and I don't think
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anybody really believed a lot of it
until the past us. There where where
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it had really gotten refined and use
is that because of the the scientific mapping.
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It was at the access to scientific
mapping and in the centers they give
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it you sort of a lot.
There's just a lot of well, there's
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a number of things and there's just
a lot of research and had to be
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done and a lot of finement in
terms of the technologies and then, secondarily,
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developing better algorithms for relating the data
that you do acquire to something that
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is of interest, you know,
from the marketing perspective. So, for
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example, and you know, I
think you'll probably hear this from some of
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the folks who you'll interview the couple
of podcasts from now. Yeah, but
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to show that if I take a
small group, essentially a focus group,
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into the lab, so like I
send a lot of money, I'm going
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to gather some date on them.
Maybe that's brain scans, which is a
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little bit expensive, but you can
even use each heart rate, things like
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that, and to show that I
can take that and, with a sophisticate
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Algorithm, I can actually predict the
behavior millions of people, the purchasing behavior
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and millions of people. Okay,
that that's powerful right. I can take
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two dozen people in the lab and
I can forecast what sales are going to
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be. I can forecast what viewership
is going to be for television shows.
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You know, we're talking hundred polticals, people. Political stuff is absolutely so
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that's, I think, where we're
now. You know that that made a
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believer out of me. I mean
I think that that can scale up in
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a variety ways and for the D
to be application. First of all,
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I wish you're your listeners could come
to my class might that I teach for
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NBA students and for undergraduates, which
is called introduction brain size for business.
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The end project is a new they
have to create a start up that will
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develop something new, some new application
of their size to business, and by
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and large it's like, I don't
know, eighty percent of the things they
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come up with their be to be
I mean, and they're great, I
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mean they're really cool. By the
way, they're going to really lead towards
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me to see. I mean that's
a let. No student's generally know like
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that. If they're yeah, that's
that's awesome. But the reason why they're
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leading they're really going hard at bet
bees. So much more money there.
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So there's a ton of a ton
of opportunities. One of the creative projects
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that I worked on with an NBA
student, which leverages a study we did
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with brain imaging but doesn't require brain
imaging. So now this is sort of
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a practical indication. So this was
a study where, the brain imaging side
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of things, we developed a way
to scan people's brains while they were seeing,
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say, different brands of the particular
product category, like cars. It's
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the different car brands for themw etcetera. And we know that if you just
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ask people to they're sitting there,
you just said write down all the carbonage.
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To think of, the order which
they write them down is perfectly poorly
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with market share. Same for Beers
and for whatever. So kind of leveraging
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off that brand equity observation, we
thought, well, we know something about
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the way that kind of concepts are
structured in your brain and that two concepts
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or two words that are seen closer
and meeting have more APP overlapping kind of
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representation in your brain. Just the
PIXELS, the spots on the brain that
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are activated will be much more overlapped
than if two concepts are very different from
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each other. So we thought a
brand that shows more overlap with the word
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car is actually going to be one
that is more similar to car in the
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might of consumer, of a customer, and therefore should that should predict market
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share, ball blah, and we
also were able to show that that could
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lend itself toward brand extension. So
this is, I think, a really
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interesting opportunity that if we take a
different concept like computer and we look at
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the mapping between car brains and computer, the car brains that look more like
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computer in your brain are going to
be the ones that share greater fit with
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that idea and in fact, should
do better, should be treated by the
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average consumer as a better idea of
a computer maker. And so it turns
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out this true. It's like,
what are the ones that have had the
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best overlap? Look like they were
BMW, which actually turns out to make
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a high and gaming computer on the
Toyota. What were ones that were the
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worst they were like Ford Chrysler would
like, are you going to buy a
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forward computer? You're going to buy
a Chrysler computer. Doesn't sound like so
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that sparking the idea in these students
that which like wow, you know,
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we could use the same approach for
mergers and acquisitions. Okay, so this
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is pretty cool idea. We didn't
look at that mapping, but instead we
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used a proxy, which is based
on personality. So we had consumers,
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we had people, sewers found to
sort of personality metrics for different companies that
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were involved in acquiring another company.
So and basically our hypnosis was if the
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personality is in this sort of multidimensional
space, little more similar than that,
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would be better fit and they would
have better sales. HMM. And it's
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actually what we found. It's like, so, think about how much money
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is involved in a merger, right, and you got failed mergers at some
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that are successful. If you could
use this brain, you know, neurosignes
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derived approach, but it's not at
doesn't involve it. You don't scar anybody's
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brain, but anything. It's just
it's a derisive of that approach. And
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now you yes, so you're drawing
correlations it's correlations of the research that's already
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be done with the existing opportunities.
That's exactly right, and so we based
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on this, you could predict the
effectiveness, the likelihood that this merger will
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actually pay off. What was the
confidence right on it? But I don't
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remember. I mean we're still in
the middle of that paper and reminds me
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God and connect, you know,
circle back to that. Student. Would
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love to hear follow up on that. Yeah, yeah, so it's but
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it's, I think you know again, it's a novel concept in a novel
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kind of Algorithm Approach. That,
yeah, some especially if you have a
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technology company and you're starting a business, fake it to your make. It
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is obviously that you know what you
want to do and and I've done that
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quite a few times, but but
when you fake it to make it before
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you make it, generally what you're
looking is what are the established companies out
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there doing? One are the best
brands within your market doing, and how
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can you borrow some of those strategies? Obviously they have a lot more critical
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mass to be able to determine like, okay, like this is worked or
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this isn't. I don't think it's
been based on neuroscience. I think it's
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actually just been based on conversion.
Right. So internally conversion it said that
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they see it is works better than
this. Say I should try to explaining
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page these words whatever else. So
when we think about the the next like
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twenty years of neuroscience and neuro marketing, it seems to me that we could
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be running into an ethical situation here
if we if we map the brain,
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if we understand the pleasure centers and
the distress centers of the brain and and
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we actually are building brands to to
obviously build empathy and have and try to
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build a brand that you have a
personal relationship and we've figured out people's minds.
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What happens to choice at that point? What happens to what happens to
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the the power of being able to
douse? I mean, people have been
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worried about this, rightfully so,
for a long time and I think the
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only thing that's happening here is we're
bringing even more, you know, power,
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you know, and more different kinds
of data to bear on the same
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question. I mean, I it's
it's something that we're very actively engaged in
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the sort of ethical, legal and
societal implications of applying our science and business.
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In fact, our very first summit
that we have a yearly slid for
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Wardner Science, was on that very
topic. It's important. Scientists don't have
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exclusive purchase just on the answers.
So I think this is something that we
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have to grapple with as a society
and as business people. We saw the
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fallout right with facebook and Cambridge analytica
years ago, because at least some of
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the principles that have been articulated in
bio medicine and also advertising by the Advertising
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Research Foundation that you know, at
least consent is super important. Right.
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Sure, consent. There needs to
be security for their data and their identity.
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Those things are a really, really
critical but the one that you brought
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up, which is choice, which
is autonomy and agency, we can't take
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that away. I don't think we're
going to be in a position where that's
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even if we maximized everything. HMM, there's, you know, there's there's
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still so much noise in the system
that you can, even under the most
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controlled conditions, you can get statistical
deviations from optimal decisions, etc. So
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I think that there's there's enough,
there's enough play and enough noise in the
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system, that it's not just going
to completely remove people's agency in terms of
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choice. The other is that,
you know, if you're thinking, you're
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worrying about like we're just gonna be
able to put our finger on the buy
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button in the brain and just push
it really hard. Yeah, yeah,
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that. You know, Amazon is
a good jot with that, by the
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way. They might, yeah,
it might that. That part may work,
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but we also have a really,
really powerful circuit in our brains that
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allows us to learn from experience and
learn from mistakes. And if you buy
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something and you hate the product or
it sucks, presumably not going to buy
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it again. But unless that we're
not telling your friends or tell your friends,
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like, unless it's not. Yeah. So, I mean I think
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that's one side of the you know, one side equations to choir customers,
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right, yeah, but to hold
on to them and building epathy and loyalties
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really important for all of that,
all hells being equal, but if your
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product is terrible, you're not going
we're still cognitive creatures. I still understand
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like, oh, yeah, this
is not working for me, I'm going
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to choose out of this. So
that that's that's really interesting and I'm sure
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you know, we could absolutely go
down the route of, you know,
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the actually the customer acquisition marketing strategy
and the customer retention strategy and the ability
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to influence the MPs of your customers
and the are they are they how they
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how are they reacting to your brand, the product itself, and then are
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they telling more people about it,
which is obviously the kind of the Golden
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Goose of BP marketing. It's like, Hey, how do I make that
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happen? So it's really interesting.
Well, I'd love to wrap it up
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with a a couple of questions here. You know, we're at at postal.
402
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You know, were an offline engagement
system and we help marketers and sale
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sales people engage with folks in the
offline world. We know the last your
404
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twenty years have been spent in digital
marketing and part of my intention to start
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this business was something that had to
do with neuro marketing. I believe that
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the brands that I was interacting with
in the BTC world, so the stuff
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that I was being sent or the
interactions I had in a retail environment,
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00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:02.940
whether it be tactile or smell,
that I was being influenced in and just
409
00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:07.569
in the brain of this is I
want this right, how do I get
410
00:31:07.170 --> 00:31:12.809
and so I was very interested in
building an offline tactile experience that can scale
411
00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:18.049
and building technology around solving that big
problem. I'd love to get your thoughts
412
00:31:18.250 --> 00:31:25.759
on how people engage two different messages
in the brain, from a digital standpoint
413
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:32.079
to a tactical standpoint, and and
where you've seen the differences or comparisons within
414
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:37.910
those two experiences. I'm a little
bit basically, like seeing something on a
415
00:31:37.109 --> 00:31:41.549
screen, yeah, seeing something in
a screen versus tact something that holds.
416
00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:45.630
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so
there hasn't been a lot of work done
417
00:31:45.670 --> 00:31:48.460
on that. Quite okay. Part
of the reason why, I think,
418
00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:53.059
is that for a lot of people, neral marketing is synonymous with brain imaging,
419
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:56.819
and brain imagings is not led,
since you got to lie down and
420
00:31:56.059 --> 00:32:00.099
emory machine and lends itself pretty well
to putting a screen in front of your
421
00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:06.089
face see you something digital, but
it's not great for moving around, for,
422
00:32:06.450 --> 00:32:08.369
you know, for interacting with something
in a you know, a kind
423
00:32:08.369 --> 00:32:13.009
of normal yeah, fashion. I
mean I think that's going to change because
424
00:32:13.329 --> 00:32:19.359
many of us in our marketing have
moved beyond brain imaging for reasons of both
425
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:24.359
cost and it's just can't scale very
well because and it inhibits you can't put
426
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:30.349
it on your head and walk around
shopping mall. So we use other technologies
427
00:32:30.470 --> 00:32:34.549
like EG which measures brain waves,
and then other things measuring and your heartbeat,
428
00:32:34.670 --> 00:32:37.109
things like that, which is really
great because you can do that through
429
00:32:37.109 --> 00:32:43.230
wearable devices now, and so you
could have somebody in a real world setting
430
00:32:43.390 --> 00:32:49.900
interacting with tactile to actual paper goods, with a yeah, with the physical
431
00:32:49.940 --> 00:32:52.819
layout of a store, of a
retail environment. Of fact, we've done
432
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:57.980
some of those studies, which is
I think, and they're super interesting.
433
00:32:58.420 --> 00:33:00.730
But there's only one study I know
of that looked at the direct comparison of
434
00:33:00.809 --> 00:33:07.250
digital versus paper and sort of study
done by Angelica Democa and the her group,
435
00:33:07.289 --> 00:33:12.329
that Temple Fox Music School. It
was a study for the postal service
436
00:33:12.410 --> 00:33:15.119
a few years ago, HMM,
and that's exactly what they looked at and
437
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.200
and they use brain imaging. I
mean it was kind of hard because you
438
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.279
had to get people interacting with the
with the material, but they found that
439
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:28.430
actually the physical stuff, I mean, which instead it makes complete sense,
440
00:33:28.509 --> 00:33:32.589
the physical stuff having in your hand
right you have your activating more sensory channels.
441
00:33:32.829 --> 00:33:36.869
So you see it, you feel
it, you hear it. If
442
00:33:36.910 --> 00:33:40.230
the paper Russell's right, it's in
your haptic space, which is special in
443
00:33:40.309 --> 00:33:45.019
terms of motor control. And so
there was a you know, more of
444
00:33:45.099 --> 00:33:50.180
the brain activated. There was a
sort of seemed like greater drive and reward
445
00:33:50.259 --> 00:33:54.180
centers and centers that are kind of
involved in attention and engagement. HMM It.
446
00:33:54.500 --> 00:33:58.049
You know, that was an initial
study. It doesn't show us at
447
00:33:58.089 --> 00:34:00.650
definitively like one is better than the
other. Sure, you know some are,
448
00:34:00.930 --> 00:34:04.569
you know, going to offer.
It's all about pros and cons and
449
00:34:05.329 --> 00:34:07.090
and you know how much of your
how much of you spend, you want
450
00:34:07.130 --> 00:34:12.239
to put on digital versus something else. We found that it's to that point
451
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.920
real quick that we found that it
actually has a lot to do with messaging
452
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:20.920
and timing based on where you're at
within a sales cycle. So if you
453
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:23.159
get like a random bottle of wine
from a wrap and you never heard from
454
00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:28.309
this person before, it's going to
be a different experience than like, Oh,
455
00:34:28.349 --> 00:34:31.710
I've seen, I've seen this brand
online. They've cookie me. So
456
00:34:31.789 --> 00:34:36.670
I see it everywhere online. Yeah, and then I get an email for
457
00:34:36.789 --> 00:34:39.059
introductions. I've gotten a few phone
calls and next thing you know I'm a
458
00:34:39.099 --> 00:34:43.099
decision maker and I get a nice
bottle of wine with a handwritten note for
459
00:34:43.179 --> 00:34:45.619
a rep that is going to be
a different words of getting. Yeah,
460
00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:49.500
yeah, yeah, totally, they
have that. Yeah, that's very cool.
461
00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:54.210
I think this is an area that
is really right for for exploitation.
462
00:34:55.050 --> 00:34:58.090
We did decided to get back to
what we were talking about before. For
463
00:34:58.210 --> 00:35:06.130
Yeah, Large Enterprise Software Solution Company, where we were monitoring people's brain states
464
00:35:07.050 --> 00:35:13.360
while they were moving through a large
conference environment and also going to keynotes and
465
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:17.119
things like that, so we could
get without interrupting them to ask them questions
466
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:21.949
or mailing them a survey. Afterward, we can continue as read out on
467
00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:24.949
how engaged they were, how much
they were liking what they were seeing and
468
00:35:25.110 --> 00:35:30.710
hearing and whatever else was going on. Wow, and it's pretty cool because
469
00:35:30.469 --> 00:35:35.590
we could and we also had tracking
trackers on them, and so we could
470
00:35:36.019 --> 00:35:39.659
predict like which booths they would visit
and how long they would spend their and
471
00:35:39.739 --> 00:35:45.300
their whole path through this environment,
I guess from the brain data, which
472
00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:49.300
I think there's so much potential there
in terms of what you could do with
473
00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:52.090
that, in terms of what you
invest in. Any could be a retail
474
00:35:52.090 --> 00:35:55.489
environment, you name it, how
you lay things out, you know what
475
00:35:55.769 --> 00:36:00.289
looks in terms of driving engagement,
which it turned out a lot of that
476
00:36:00.570 --> 00:36:06.440
was social interaction. So something when
there's a person there is much more,
477
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:10.119
you know, motivating and engaging and
would drive people in. And the other
478
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:15.559
thing that was really fun was like
watching people's brain activity during keynotes, where
479
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:21.110
these are all people who are ostensibly
kind of this was their company and so
480
00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:27.590
they're sitting there watching keynotes by by
the CEO The company, by entertainers like
481
00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:31.630
bear Grilli is sold out of Brian
Tim Cook. That's pretty fun because,
482
00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:37.260
like you had some people who are
up here in like high engagement, liking
483
00:36:37.300 --> 00:36:39.059
you a lot, like bear grills, you know. Yeah, I'm kind
484
00:36:39.059 --> 00:36:43.500
of like Tim Cook down in this
quadrant, like I don't know what they
485
00:36:43.739 --> 00:36:46.690
spent on him, but it was
like, you know, low engagement,
486
00:36:46.929 --> 00:36:51.690
want to leave, but I can't
yet. He is the most influencial,
487
00:36:51.809 --> 00:36:55.969
apatheticathybasse brand that everybody loves right.
Well, I love valid is. They
488
00:36:57.010 --> 00:36:59.610
had to stay there because they had
to hear what he was going to say,
489
00:36:59.730 --> 00:37:04.880
but it's they're saying. Really Fun
is boring and I really, I
490
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.280
really don't like wow, wow.
Well, I mean especially when you're spending
491
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:15.599
I'm I probably can guess who you're
talking about, but you probably can imagine
492
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:20.110
how much money they're spending on those
events to try to engage their customer base
493
00:37:20.190 --> 00:37:23.949
or their employee base and mobilize for
productivity or sales or whatever else. So
494
00:37:24.630 --> 00:37:30.539
that's extremely interesting. You know,
it sounds like we're just scratching the surface
495
00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:36.300
with what the opportunity is for this
space and it's amazing to hear that Wharton
496
00:37:36.860 --> 00:37:40.099
and pain are just are spending the
capital needed for the research, for the
497
00:37:40.179 --> 00:37:46.570
resources to really document what the future
can be with this. And as much
498
00:37:47.210 --> 00:37:52.010
I did some studies at MIT on
artificial intelligence and as much as you know,
499
00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:57.250
I want to love the the the
path that a I can take us
500
00:37:57.409 --> 00:38:02.440
in and decisionmaking and recommendation engines and
making sense of big data sets, I
501
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:07.199
think we're missing out and and maybe
this is kind of an entry point of
502
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:13.949
really what is the human brain want
and how can you help your customers or
503
00:38:14.309 --> 00:38:20.750
help tail your message to the way
people actual behave and the way they think
504
00:38:20.989 --> 00:38:25.269
and what makes them take and that
is that is something that's extremely important when
505
00:38:25.269 --> 00:38:29.900
it comes to marketing and I think
you know your your research is going to
506
00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:34.179
be imperative today in the future.
So I really appreciate you joining me today,
507
00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:37.380
Dr Platt. Thanks so much.
Working folks learn more about you,
508
00:38:37.659 --> 00:38:42.690
more about the information that we've been
talking today, they should check out the
509
00:38:43.369 --> 00:38:47.090
our website for the warden neuroscience initiative, neurow dout warden. Do you pinned
510
00:38:47.289 --> 00:38:51.889
EEDU? And also analytics at warden. So one of the speaking to the
511
00:38:51.929 --> 00:38:57.960
question of Ai and analytics. In
the last couple of years Warton has created
512
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:05.000
this sort of Uber umbrella that is
analyst Warton, and within that lives neuroscience,
513
00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:08.719
lives, people analytics, customer analytics
and Ward and budget model, so
514
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:14.349
kind of all the data driven sciences, and so we are explicitly marrying those
515
00:39:14.429 --> 00:39:19.429
together. So we're saying that,
like, you get more by synergizing from
516
00:39:19.550 --> 00:39:23.460
with observable data about what people do
and then what we can understand by looking
517
00:39:23.460 --> 00:39:28.139
under the hood in terms of what
their brains are thinking and feeling. So
518
00:39:28.300 --> 00:39:31.500
it's like so I so I encourage
them. You go to analytux of Warten,
519
00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:36.019
go to work ners science and you're
going to find a lot of really
520
00:39:36.099 --> 00:39:39.889
great stuff. That's awesome. This
is a been the first part series of
521
00:39:39.969 --> 00:39:45.090
the three segments in postals. Take
over from Bob Growth on neuro marketing.
522
00:39:45.130 --> 00:39:49.730
Dr Plot thinks. So much for
joining me today and we hope to see
523
00:39:49.769 --> 00:39:52.760
everybody in the next couple episodes like
so much. Thank you, it's been
524
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:59.639
great. This episode is brought to
you by Postal di Oh. Postal is
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a sales and marketing platform that helps
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about podcast audience growth is that word
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