Transcript
WEBVTT
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As you build the skills, you
build confidence in yourself and when you have
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the confidence, that ends up leading
to the ability to realize the freedom in
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the professional world. Well, welcome
everybody to the Hashtag sale series on BB
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growth. I'm your shiny boy co
host, Patrick Downs, and today I'm
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massively excited to be joined by Chris
Walker, the CEO of refine labs.
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Today we're talking about professional freedom and
I'm eagles somewhere crying out in the distance
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and I have titled Today's Episode Independence
Cast Day. I hope that plans.
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Probably not, but but, Chris, I would appreciate if you could not
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make fun of that and please have
some guard your effect. Patrick, what's
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up, man, really happy to
be here. I am a happy panda
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doc customer. So was good too
could be, to be invited here.
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And, and yeah, I mean
I I have been an entrepreneur all my
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life that was locked in a job
running side hustles for the first half of
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my career and now feel very lucky. On the topic of professional freedom,
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to be free to control my own
destiny, to control my own compensation,
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to control the things that I do
based on my core or values, not
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on the values of other people that
are have a higher title than me in
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an organization to be creative and innovate
and do things that I believe in.
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Then might not be accepted inside of
companies. And so for all those reasons,
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I just feel like I'm in a
really great place. It's not for
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everyone. Not everyone would be successful
in a situation like this. A lot
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of people are a lot better employees
than they are owners, are entrepreneurs or
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full freelancers or however you want to
look at it, which is fine,
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as long as you recognize what's most
important for you. And so that's a
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little little context. I appreciate that. And I was Ting through your post
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again and at one point you said
I am free, like it came out
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of nowhere, like could just burst
from the night. I was wondering if
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that happened while you were still working
somewhere and you came to the conclusion that
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I actually do have control over actions
and what I do, or if it
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was when you actually did go out
on your own. Yeah, so it's
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been a it was a long progression. It will be. It will be
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a long progression for most people,
unless it's a very natural thing, which
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is you probably don't need to listen
to this podcast. And so for me,
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at like twenty three, I always
knew that I wanted to run my
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own business and work for myself.
I was building e commerce stores in my
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bedroom at two in the morning on
Saturday night, and it's going to my
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job during the day because I like
doing those things. At the beginning of
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my career I had a lot of
student debt from a really good college that
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I went to that I'm grateful for, but I took on debt to do
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that. I wasn't in a financial
position to make that leap. I also
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think, as I reflect on it, that I didn't have the skills that
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I needed in order to to do
what I'm doing today. It required time.
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The first step in doing that was
when I was around twenty seven years
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old, where I was in a
job that I had reached a point where
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I wasn't enjoying it anymore. I
was stuck. I couldn't innovate. All
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the things that I love to do
I wasn't able to do, which got
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me frustrated, and I think a
lot of this will resonate with a lot
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of people, which is that I
eventually looked at myself and I was like,
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why am I staying in this job
that I don't like? I do
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not need to do this. I'm
in control of this situation, and so
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if I'm in control and I'm accountable
to this, I can either suck it
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up and continue to go to this
job that I don't like and try and
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figure out if there's a way that
I can change what's happening inside of that
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job to reflect to make me more
happy, or if I'm not able to
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do that, I have the freedom
to leave. I have the freedom to
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leave. I have the freedom to
go get another job, I have a
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freedom to go start my own company. I have the freedom to do anything
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that I want. I think a
lot of people and I experienced this early
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in my career. It's like I
didn't feel like I had that choice.
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I felt like I was stuck,
and so it takes a lot of like
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time and skill development and confidence building
and professional development to be in a position
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where you can but you can get
there. Everyone can. Did the realization
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happen before you had developed the skills
and then you went head first into developing
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them even further? Was it kind
of at the same time? So when
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I when I left that job,
actually went into another one, and that
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change was the beginning process of me
figuring out that I'm just not built to
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work for somebody else. I'm just
not. I need the ability to do
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things that a lot of people think
are dumb. Like I'm say this,
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a lot, a lot of people
will resonate if I worked for somebody else,
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they would have shut down my linkedin
in August of two thousand and nineteen
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before any of this happened. And
that's just the way it is and that's
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how so I need that space to
do the things that I believe in that
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most people don't believe in at the
time. And it's just a it's one
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commit to whatever you're trying to do, if it's to work for yourself,
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it's to get better, it's to
get a promotion, commit to it,
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do the things to build the skills
that you need to be successful, and
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then, three, just go for
it. But as you build the skills,
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you build confidence in yourself and when
you have the confidence, that ends
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up leading to the ability to realize
the freedom in the professional world. At
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least that's how it happened for me. Yeah, I hope that more people
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start realizing that, because a lot
of people kind to me specifically about Linkedin,
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and almost every single person I've interviewed
has been incredibly anxious before we started
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out, like Hey, can you
not ask questions about this? I don't
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want to talk about this, like
I'm talking to like an as actor or
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something right there that worried. I'm
sure you runner that all the time,
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but I used to feel that way
and then I just stopped giving a shit
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and I started posting stuff that like
resonate with me and I got lucky enough
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that my company didn't care. But
the reality is, though, that people
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do right. I mean I've never
been in a situation where I've been reprimanded,
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but if you heard of situations like
that, for sure, like whether
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you are reprimanded or because of the
culture of the organization, you don't even
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post to have the opportunity to be
reprimanded. I think most people fall into
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that position where it's just not not
viewed in the right way from a company
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standpoint. Like for me to work
in a company and then post about all
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the dumb shit that I see companies
do would probably get me fired. Right.
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It's just the truth, and so
I think a lot of people working
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companies where that type of behavior is
frowned upon. Yeah, I mean even
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I did a like a session for
my team on pin and almost every single
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person said they felt like they couldn't
be there their true self. Yes,
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on social media, it's true.
Do you think people like in leadership positions
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have an advantage there, though,
where it's like, all right, maybe
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they can do it, but people
in nicee role maybe can't? I think
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at the surface I could understand why
people would think that way, but I
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think if you look really deep it's
not any different. I think it's more
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about the person that's the marketing manager, how they subjectively feel and that prevents
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them from posting. But I think
if you had two people that were posting
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the same stuff and the only difference
was that their seniority was different, I
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actually don't think that it would be
viewed differently from an internal perspective. From
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an external perspective there's a different story, but internally, I'm not sure if
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any of my employees are listening to
this. Please start posting steward shit.
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I'm linked in to test his theory. Yeah, let's see what happens.
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Would be interesting. Yeah, I
still be the clip to it. I'll
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like it everything. So I was
curious as well on a point from your
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post. You had said that there
were some decisions being made that did not
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align with your values and that you
felt like you would have the ability to
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speak up about that. Is that
something you did while you're working for other
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people? Yeah, whether they I
mean, the most obvious one that comes
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to mind for me is in companies
that do things that are in their best
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interest, knowingly not in the best
interest of their customers, in order to
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hit their own goals, which does
not align with the way that I see
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the world, and so I think
that, if you think about it,
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there's a million permutations of something like
that that could happen in the company that
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doesn't align with either values or strategic
vision. Like I recognize it, a
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lot of people don't have the strategic
vision that I have for and how I
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see the world, but, like
my my vision is very much so misaligned
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with a majority of venture back companies, and so it would be hard for
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me to continue to support an organization
that doesn't align with the way I see
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the world, and so that's kind
of like the realization that took me a
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pretty long time to get to,
but that's where I am now. What
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does it sound like to start speaking
up against that? Like if somebody did
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feel that land, and a lot
of people do, but they don't say
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anything. Like. Is there a
good way to go about that, to
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actually enact change? Yeah, I
mean the easiest two ways that I've found
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to enact change in in an organization
is the most the most important one is
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to remove your subjective opinion and put
it in speaking in the words of a
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customer. And so if you want
to get something done, like we should
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build this product or we should do
this instead, or we should adjust our
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pricing model, then I would run
a non bias survey to customers. Non
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Biased mean you don't ask leading questions
so that they tell you the answer that
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you want, like a real survey
or qualitative or anything, and then go
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back to executive and say, Hey, I know you wanted to do x,
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Y and Z with the product,
but here's what customers say. What
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do you think about that? So
that's one. That's one way that I
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found that work for all. The
second thing is to back it up with
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just objective data, and so an
example of that might be, you know,
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I know that we want to continue
to generate all these leads we've been
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running. We've been doing this content
syndication for the past thirty six months.
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We've gotten a hundred thousand leads from
it. We've spent this much money.
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Fifty dollars a lead, so we
spent whatever that is, five million dollars
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or something. If I can do
the math in my head, and we
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got this much revenue, then like
the math, that doesn't seem to make
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sense to me. I'm thinking that
we might want to take some of the
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money that we're doing over here that's
non productive and move it to something like
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this. What do you think about
that? And those are a couple ways
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that I think are good ways to
approach it and not what we're doing is
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dumb. You guys are not going
in the right direction. I don't feel
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like that is the right way to
approach it. And so, yeah,
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those are some of the things that
I've figured out. More strategic and eloquent
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things ways to approach it then when
I was younger, because I know a
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couple people that feel the same way
that, but they probably spend most of
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their time on that topic, like
scribbling it in a notebook or plotting revenge
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inside of their head. It's instead
of doing something about it. Well,
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why do you think that fear exist? Is it mostly just like I don't
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want to be a homeless person and
that that doesn't exist in a capitalist society,
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or is there something greater there?
I think it's hard to see all
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of the options when you're so narrowed
in. Right, like when I was
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in some of those companies, one
I'd bills to pay, so I like
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couldn't lose my job. Right.
So even the idea of putting yourself in
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a position where you might is scary
for people. And so it just goes
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back to the framework at the beginning. Commit build skills. Once you have
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the skills, you realize that the
world is abundant, that if this company
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decided to fire you could go and
get a job at a hundred other companies,
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or you could immediately go and take
three contract roles and make twice as
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much money as you are in this
one company, working part time. Like
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both of those things are more than
possible. And so when you have those
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options, it then, I'll empowers
you to be more direct. That the
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way that I've found that it works
and then the last thing that I'm thinking
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about is like, when I was
challenging the views, I took myself out
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of my role and I put myself
in the what if I was the advisor
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to the CEO? What would I
tell them then? And so it was
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always thinking of the best interest of
the customer and the company, not about
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what was in the best interest for
me. And so when if you can
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remove that element as best you can
and feel true to that, then what
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you're saying is the right thing to
say. And yes, there will be
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instances where you're in the wrong company
and you get fired for that and,
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to be honest, you wanted to
get fired. If you get fired for
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doing that, it's actually a good
thing. That's hard to say. Sometimes
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it's like it's a good thing to
get fired, but I agree. I
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mean I think people limit themselves a
lot. Thing that the word dust.
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I like, I'm just this.
People wouldn't want to hear from me.
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I hear that all the time and
I talked about linkedin right. There's not
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that I could say that someone else
wouldn't say. I don't have any value
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to add. It's so common and
some of the people saying that or that
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from the brightest people I know,
and I'm like you talking about exactly what
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were you thinking when you were saying
stuff like that, like what was it
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coming from? Logic, or was
it just fear? Who's just like,
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look at this, I guy Dave
Garrehard, he's getting a million, ten
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million views on every post. Like
there's so many people out here posting.
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I'm not bringing anything new to the
table. It's all bullshit. It's all
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bullshit. You tell yourself not to
do something, it's just excuses, and
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so I've started to frame it in
a different way in my mind. So,
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like every critical decision I've made in
the last twelve months, I was
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scared because it was it was a
critical decision because it was paving new ground
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in my life, for my career, and when you're thinking about doing it,
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it's scary and then once you do
it it's not scary. And so
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that's and it's if I had not
made there's probably like three or four key
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ones. By not made those decisions, I really don't feel like where I
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would be where I am today.
Well, were those key decisions. The
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one that really sticks out into my
in my mind is I had this thislike
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real feeling that if companies stopped building
stupid trade show booths and started doing field
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marketing events, but the field marketing
event was an event to create content and
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bring value to the audience, not
to drive leads that you could cold call
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them the next day. Then you
could build an event. You could divide
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fifty people and you could have a
thought leader there, you could interview them,
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you could take q Anda, you
would make a ninety minute video and
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then the video asset becomes the value
of the event, not the people that
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that show up. And so that
was my theory. And then if a
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company was spend a million dollars on
a trade show, then what if they,
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instead of doing doing a million dollars
a year on trade shows, they
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only did three hundred and they spent
the seven hundred doing these events, one
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a week across the country, and
they would if they did one a week
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across the country, then they would
theoretically have fifty two long form video assets
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they could then break down and create
a ton of content. And so my
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my objective was to do one to
understand what it what it was like.
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I needed it to taste it so
that and also to show the companies that
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I work for, what good looks
like. Instead of doing this, you
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could do this. Here's what the
output is, here's what the Roy is,
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heres how you distribute the content,
here's what to do, here's how
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much it's going to cost. Go
get it done. And and so I
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had every I had everything I needed
to do the event and Josh Fro on,
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which we did in January, which
was amazing, and I had everything
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that I needed to make the decision. I knew how much the event was
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going to cost. I knew how
much it was going to cost a fly
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the videographers there. I knew how
much the video editing was going to cost.
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On you, how much the food
was going to cost. I had
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all in front of me. was
like a Twelvezero bill and I was like,
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what if I say yes to this
and then nobody shows up? It
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would be a huge waste, it
would be a waste of money. I
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would embarrass myself in front of Josh
telling myself all these stupid things. And
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then it was sitting on my desk
and one day I was just like fuck
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it, like we're doing this,
and I just in a just came down
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to commit and then go and get
it done and forty people will showed up.
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We created an awesome video. It
gave me the confidence to do the
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next one with Justin wells the next
month, and we would have done one
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in San Francisco and Austin and Toronto
and Boston and Chicago if this hadn't happened.
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We had them all lined up.
That had to get canceled. And
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so, like now I'm ready to
go and do those things that I was
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at one point scared to do.
And I knew, I know for sure
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that the twelvezero spent drove in enormous
sorrow. I and so first time I
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ever noticed you was that video with
Josh. No way it is. Yeah,
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I remember seeing I love Josh and
I was like, Oh, who's
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this guy sitting next to him?
Is Very nice hair. I should check
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them out. And so that,
I mean, that is like the the
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key point, if a company's listening, to think about whether the idea of
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doing their trade show booth that a
hundred fifty people stumble by when they're looking
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for coffee, versus doing something like
that with someone that has fiftyzero followers in
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the exact target market the year going
after and doing the event and getting exposure
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to the people that already follow them
and elevating your brand to where their brand
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is. Like. There's so many
strategic reasons for the twelvezero investment to do
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the video and the whole event that
I just find to be a better like
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event strategy. So that was one. That was one point when I was
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I had all the stuff, I
was scared to make a decision. Made
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the decision. It turned out amazing. mean if it didn't turn out amazing
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and I would have learned a bunch
of Shit. And so either way,
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like I think we even myself a
very guilty of this, telling stories in
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your head that prevent you from moving
forward. And that was when you were
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on your own, right when you
made that decision I had. I was
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me and one other person and the
company. Yeah, so do you think
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you would have made that decision if
you were like the head of marketing somewhere
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without a phone? I would have
made the decision. If whether or not
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I would have been allowed to make
the decision as a different story, which
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is fascinating if you think about the
head of marketing not being able to make
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that decision. It's fascinating, but
it's true and so I just when I
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think about some of these things,
it's really interesting to frame it up,
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like if you're the head of marketing, if it was your money, would
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you spend it? If it was
your hundred thousand dollars that you're building out
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that booth at the industry conference and
you need to have a positive roy to
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put food on the table for your
family and send your kids to college,
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would you still put that hundred thousand
dollars into that trade show? Would you
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do something different? I'm really curious
because I would have to say that ninety
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nine point nine percent of people would
not spend a hundred thousand dollars or their
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own money on that event and expect
a Positi of Roy. Yet when it's
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not their own money, they love
doing it. It's also just things that
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have been done in the past.
They're just like repeating you know well,
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fired for building a trade a with
at a trade show, for the one
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that you've been going for for the
past twenty years. You don't get fired
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for doing all of the stuff that's
accepted, doing abm to make it set
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to your organization feel like you're doing
something innovative. That the paradox. There's
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like all of those things became standard
because someone tried something new with the first
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place. So it's just such strange
thinking. It's bizarre, man, but
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I'm glad that I saw you in
that video. Yeah, that is like,
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Oh man, I was like Travis
Kickers Walker, I like that guy.
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John said it was really smart shit
that night. It did. Yeah,
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he's a smart guy. It's funny
when you put a camera a smart
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people like a content comes out.
Yeah, man. And so, like
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the thesis on this is you could
go around to every city. There's a
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there's a Josh Braun, not exactly
Josh Brown, but there's someone like Josh
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Brown and every in every major city, and you go around and collect that.
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Dave Gerharten Boston, which is one
that I have on the docket that
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would love to make happen. You
know some peeple, someone in Austin,
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Texas. SO WHEN IN TORONTO?
Those are to get back to the original
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point, that's like one time where
I felt felt scared to make a decision
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that wasn't very scary, just like, just like posting the first time on
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Linkedin. Yeah, I guys,
just post on like then. Just do
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00:21:14.670 --> 00:21:18.619
it. I'm telling you, nothing
bad's going to happen. That might actually
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so to end with scared in the
audience. I think that's a good place.
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Chris, is there anything that you
want to plug here on the plugs
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00:21:26.299 --> 00:21:32.059
it so if you liked what you're
heart on this podcast or on this one,
309
00:21:32.779 --> 00:21:36.690
we host podcast called the state of
Demanda and there's forty episodes up there.
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00:21:36.690 --> 00:21:40.170
We're putting three to five up every
week for people that are looking for
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00:21:40.890 --> 00:21:45.970
a forward thinking, unique way to
approach the managem and think about marketing.
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00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:48.720
Would highly recommend that you check that
out. There's a ton of different content
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00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:56.000
types, a lot of detailed,
both strategic and deep tactical work going on
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00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.160
there. So I'd recommend that you
check it out. I gotta check out
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00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:00.750
the PODCAST. Honestly, that's going
to be what I did this weekend.
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00:22:00.789 --> 00:22:06.230
ENIC right on. I appreciate you
being here, man, I really really
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00:22:06.309 --> 00:22:11.390
do. And if you guys want
to find us on Instagram, Linkedin,
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00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:14.910
Youtube, anywhere, spotify, where
you find your podcast, it's be to
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00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:18.859
be growth. You can listen to
the Hashtag sale series and once again you
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00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:22.299
are shiny black cohost, patrick downs. The independence cast a did not land,
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00:22:22.339 --> 00:22:25.900
so I won't repeat it that I
just kind of did, and I
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will see you guys again next week. Thank you so much for listening.
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