The Perils of Self-Centered Marketing, with Scott Miller

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:16.920 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. This 2 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:20.920 is be tob growth coming to you from just outside Austin, Texas. I'm 3 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:25.879 your host, Benjie Block, and joining me from Nashville, Tennessee director of 4 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:31.760 audience growth here at sweet fish, Dan Sanchez, and from Louisville, Kentucky, 5 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:35.880 our creative content lead, Emily Brady. Welcoming to be to be growth. 6 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:40.640 Guys. Thanks, Benjie. Good to be here. So we are 7 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:45.359 in now the middle of week two of this new round table we've been doing. 8 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:49.159 I've been loving this. I think it's so fun to get all three 9 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:54.880 of us together. We have unique perspectives on marketing and just the things that 10 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:58.759 we're seeing and getting to bring that here and and kind of talk about it 11 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:00.920 in real time as we see stuff. I think it is just important and 12 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:03.879 one of my favorite things that happens within podcasting. I think of all the 13 00:01:03.879 --> 00:01:10.480 podcast I listen to, that sort of real time conversation is so important and 14 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:14.280 what keeps me coming back. So today I'm going to bring something that I 15 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:19.280 have been thinking about, and I'll just say this right from the top, 16 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:26.359 that this is a recurring theme or head scratcher or issue that I come back 17 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:32.879 to because I am inconsistent, or around the topics that I post about on 18 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:37.439 Linkedin, or even just my social strategy in general. It's like what do 19 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:42.159 I actually want to niche down into? What do I want to call myself 20 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:47.400 back to topic wise, so that the people that are coming back to my 21 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.359 content know sort of what to expect right? And I know, Emily, 22 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.400 you've set us up at sweet fish with tools and resources, and yet still, 23 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.239 even with some guard rails, I find myself in this place of just 24 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:01.400 being like, man, what are like the pillars of my content? Let's 25 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:06.879 start here. Have you guys struggled with this, or are you just you've 26 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:09.479 just always been great at knowing the content that you wanted to niche down into? 27 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:13.120 And we'm gonna throw it to you first, because you're kind of smiling 28 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:16.360 over there. Yeah, no, I think it's funny because, like Dan, 29 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:20.080 I feel like Dan's really good at this. Dan is like Yoda and 30 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.280 I'm like Anakin, like he taught me what I know about linking. So 31 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:27.599 I think it's great role in this conversation. But this is actually something that 32 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.840 I struggle with. To Benjie, it's kind of like a do as I 33 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:34.360 say, not as I do, situation where I can coach our vangelists through 34 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.400 how to do that. But for me personally, I get so excited about 35 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.199 so many ideas that I end up posting a ton of different stuff on Linkedin, 36 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:46.520 and that's my downfall. Is Not a lack of ideas, but too 37 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.199 many. So I think whether you're on the end of I don't have enough 38 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.520 to deat ideas or have way too many ideas, like it's helpful to niche 39 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:55.560 down and meet in the middle. I do know. I know the things 40 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:59.680 that I'm not going to talk about because I know what I don't know about. 41 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:02.400 Now that's a helpful thing to sport with, to have some parameters there. 42 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.280 And I know what I like talking about, which I love talking about 43 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:09.360 Linkedin. I love talking about creating content, tick tock, but those are 44 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:14.360 still very, very broad. So a lot of my approach to Linkedin really 45 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:17.520 is just to talk about things that I'm learning about with in those things, 46 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:22.400 content, marketing, Linkedin, Tick Tock and so and a lot of it 47 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:25.439 is just the nuances of those and what the daytoday looks like in creating content 48 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:31.520 or creating videos, and I think my biggest resource for creating content is just 49 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:36.840 having conversations with people like this in person, but also on Linkedin. I 50 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.719 spend a lot of time on the platform engaging with people, so that I 51 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:44.599 can engage with people, but also so that I can take some content from 52 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:49.639 that. So that's my whole approach. Yeah, to creating content for Linkedin. 53 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.240 Dan, how's this kind of developed for you over time? One thing 54 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:55.080 I've realized is that it's really hard to figure out of yourself. I mean 55 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:59.199 emily was saying, Oh, Dan taught me. Well, Dan's also the 56 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:03.199 one struggling with finding it for himself. Right. It's just really hard to 57 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.479 look at it because you have the curse of knowledge. You know too much 58 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:11.199 about your stuff, your stories, you're what you know what you don't know 59 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:14.879 your own interest. It's just like a chaos a room full of stuff and 60 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:16.800 you're like, which thing in this room should I focus on? Should I 61 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.600 group these things together in this room? You know, if there's lots of 62 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:21.879 different things going on in a room, to make it like give it a 63 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:25.879 picture, you like, which three things should I pull out of this chaos 64 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.439 room? You know, what I found is that it's usually pretty obvious to 65 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:32.920 someone else. Who isn't you? Like when I sit down with others and 66 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.399 they're talking to me about all their interests and what they've done and all that 67 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:38.920 kind of stuff? The Few Times that I've done this, I'm like it's 68 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.000 usually really obvious, or at least it's it to me. I'm like, 69 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:44.800 Oh, like, why don't you just do this? That's that makes sense. 70 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:46.639 There's a market for that. It looks like you're passionate about that. 71 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:49.199 Yes, you're probably gonna have to say no to these two other things, 72 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:53.959 but it seems like there's a clear winner here, so what's stopping you? 73 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:56.199 And they're like, but really, and then they come up with fifty other 74 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:00.360 reasons why that's not the thing. But to someone on the outside, you're 75 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:02.720 like that's the thing. I had someone sit down. James Carberry, the 76 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.279 the founder is sweet fish, sat down with me and he told me he's 77 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:10.480 like, Dan, I know you're interested in x and wine. You're you 78 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:14.160 wanted to write a book about this, but I really feel like audience growth 79 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.879 should be your thing. I fought it for like six months and then I 80 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:20.560 eventually just gave into it and now that's been the topic that I've been pursuing 81 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:25.319 more but even staying focused with it on Linkedin as a challenge and I still 82 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:29.839 post about other stuff. So I'm on my journey. I've got a little 83 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.279 bit of light, but it's still hasn't become super clear as far as like 84 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:38.040 how to how to fully make it my thing. That's a really good I 85 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:42.000 totally agree. It's so much harder to do that for yourself and find what 86 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.360 your topics are than it is to do it for other people. Like when 87 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.720 I on board of Angelists for our program we just have a conversation about the 88 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:53.800 things they're knowledgeable about, the things they love, the things they're curious about, 89 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.600 and it almost feels like it's easy to mind that way and to find 90 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:00.079 things like they might not think so and then I'll say, Oh, I've 91 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.000 heard you talk a lot about this. What have you considered talking about this? 92 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:06.279 And they're like Whoa, no, I have it and it seems so 93 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:11.319 obvious to people on the outside. So sometimes you just need just to talk 94 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.560 back and forth with someone to figure that out, or you need someone like 95 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:17.879 James to approach you and say you should talk about this. So yeah, 96 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:23.519 that helps. So one way is exactly that emily right. The conversations that 97 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:29.279 you had is you're kind of onboarding are linkedin evangelists and writing that down so 98 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:33.199 that we have something to reference back to. I wonder, like as you 99 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.600 because to me it's not don't post about things you're passionate about, it's like 100 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:41.600 continue to do that, but then maybe also like let's have a strategy for 101 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.680 these specific things that we always come back to. Write like the pillars that 102 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:50.519 I know when I go to Dan's Linkedin he's going to have a pretty solid 103 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:55.839 mix of audience growth type content and then other things are thrown in because he's 104 00:06:55.879 --> 00:07:00.079 obviously interested in marketing more broadly. He's running a podcast. There's going to 105 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.399 be these other flavors that allow for some variety, which is always nice, 106 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:09.160 like we we need that, but it's to me it's like, all right, 107 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.160 what are those pillars that we want to keep coming back to, because 108 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.000 once you have them really truly locked in, it does make it so much 109 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.560 easier to know what are the posts that I should be creating, what are 110 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:21.160 the questions people are asking within this niche? And I see people get there. 111 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:26.000 They're not me. I interview them, they get there, they find 112 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:29.560 their niche and they're just posting the same types of content all the time and 113 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.480 people are I mean they keep coming back for more. It's funny because I 114 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:38.199 find that those people get boring too. Yeah, like, like Justin Welsh, 115 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.600 as someone that I really liked this content, but now it's so repetitive. 116 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.560 Yet it tends to it seems to be freaking working. He like grows 117 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.959 like more and more and faster. He's growing faster now because he's so consistent. 118 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:51.160 Yet as someone who's been listening to him for a year and a half, 119 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:55.800 I'm like, I feel like I've seen this post from you at least 120 00:07:55.800 --> 00:08:00.000 four times because I've been reading almost every post he's put out for like a 121 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.319 year and a half. But other people need to hear it. So I'm 122 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:07.480 like, well, okay, I kind of don't want to read a stuff 123 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:11.399 as often now just because I'm like feel like I'm I get it, you 124 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:13.360 know. But at the same time he's growing, so it's working for him 125 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:18.399 and you know at least that you can go to his page if there's information. 126 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:20.160 They for some of the talks about, which is nice. So that's 127 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.040 a pro but I agree in that it does get repetitive. Sometimes. So 128 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:28.920 it's nice when someone has a lane, but they also talk about other things. 129 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.759 One thing I'm really interested for. Right now, we can't speak to 130 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.679 the results that it'll produce, but emily, maybe you can talk to this 131 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:43.279 to we're trying out this like video style interview someone else from sweet fish system, 132 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.960 where, like then, we would have videos to post on Linkedin as 133 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:52.600 content, and I'm excited for that because I feel like even doing these around 134 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.919 tables, I'm like, Oh man, stuff comes up where I'm like, 135 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.279 I'm not talking about this in any other room. So having someone asked me 136 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:01.879 some questions will prompt answers out of me. It's the same thing as that 137 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.039 on boarding conversation, right, but it's just like a different way of doing 138 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.600 it. Speak to that and maybe even what prompted that idea. Yeah, 139 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.720 so we actually have to two people on our evangelist team. They had like 140 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.679 daily meetings for like thirty minutes where they would just get on riverside and ask 141 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:22.519 each other questions about the work that they're doing daily or about the things they're 142 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:24.759 passionate about, and they just started doing this of their own initiative and I 143 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.960 thought it was a brilliant because I started seeing more of their videos pop up 144 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.000 on linkedin and so then I jumped on some micro videos with people. It's 145 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:39.039 helpful because the people that are asking you questions maybe don't know anything about your 146 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.120 role and it might it might help you think, because a lot of times 147 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:45.799 we're two in the work to realize that we have something to say about it. 148 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:48.120 So, like if I were to jump on a conversation with you, 149 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.600 Benjie, I would be like, all right, tell me how you interview, 150 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.440 tell me how you find guests to interview, because I don't work in 151 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.120 that at all, and you're like, oh well, that's the basic functions 152 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.639 of my job. or I might see the content that you have on Linkedin, 153 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:03.919 what you've been posting, what you've been talking about, and I can 154 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:09.080 ask you about that. And sometimes it's just it's helpful to verbally process those 155 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:11.519 things. And we used to do a lot more, like I would send 156 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:16.399 people prompts, just like in the slack channel. I would just send a 157 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.039 prompt, but that's not as helpful as building off of a conversation in video. 158 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:24.639 So that's been really good strategy in coming up with ideas, but also 159 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.960 in producing more content and more video content specifically and if someone's not comfortable on 160 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:33.320 video, they they can just take they can transcribe what they've said and make 161 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.399 a post out of it, which also really helpful. Yeah, all right. 162 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:41.039 So I want to start to wrap this up by just going what are 163 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:43.480 like our next steps, because it seems like all of us are going in 164 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:48.600 one way or another. We might know what to do, but let's talk 165 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:52.279 about what we are going to do. So what comes to mind, guys, 166 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:56.559 like what's your what's your action item as we leave this conversation? Mine 167 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:01.000 is to get interviewed. I'll say that mine is to do this video interview 168 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:07.200 process because I am genuinely like thinking so much good can come from the questions 169 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:11.159 I can ask someone else and then they can just ask me. And I 170 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:18.480 do want to pick like one area, probably, I think, podcasting, 171 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.559 and then something that's more like a passion that I feel like I could bring 172 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:28.159 to Linkedin and the a unique way and just start trying stuff where it's like, 173 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:30.919 okay, I know at least one post a week I'm posting on, 174 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.320 let's say podcasting. Right then just start there. It's not going to become 175 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:37.720 the pillar of I'm not going to become this person that's repetitive as crap, 176 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.120 because I don't have that yet, but I think that's my easy next step. 177 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.039 In the beginning, you probably can't post a lot of topics and then, 178 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.360 as an exploration, to find out what the topic is, you know 179 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.559 I'm saying, and then over, over time, you kind of find you 180 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.200 greatly lean towards one or one pops more than the other ones and you kind 181 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:58.000 of like that anyway and you got to go for it. Actually think you 182 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:00.440 can be abroad in the beginning, so I don't think there's a problem with 183 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.200 that, but I think eventually you do want to hone it down. My 184 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:05.679 one thing that I've thought about doing for a long time, but I'm like, 185 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.639 I just need a freaking pull the trigger and just hire someone to coach 186 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:13.720 me some spe specifically someone who's good at finding the thing and finding your story 187 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:16.960 behind it and coaching you through it, because some people are good at it 188 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.159 and do it enough that they're like you lay out a whole table worth of 189 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.399 stuff and they're like Oh, yeah, this, this and this. In 190 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.120 fact, when you told me this about your story lines up perfectly with that. 191 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:28.440 This is your sound bite. You're just like what like? I think 192 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:33.679 of woman called Robin Farm and Farmanium, long last name. I interviewed who 193 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:35.919 are me to be growth, and I realized, I'm like, you're one 194 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.519 of those people. You're really good at this, because we talked a little 195 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.360 bit about even my own personal brand a bit and she was able to ask 196 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.679 a few questions that I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to hire 197 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.720 you, like help me figure this out. So part of me is thinking 198 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.360 about reaching out to her or finding other people and then just pulling the trigger 199 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.000 and hiring somebody to do an hour long session, maybe a couple hour long 200 00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:00.080 sessions, and it probably would be enough to create a lot of clarity. 201 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.240 Yeah, you guys are really inspiring me to to after I get off this 202 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.960 call, to go and tea clutter and organize my content, because I have 203 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.639 pages and pages and pages of ideas and notes and sometimes I go back to 204 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:15.320 those and I'm like, I don't think I like this anymore, so I 205 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.120 just need to delete some stuff, I need to add a some stuff and 206 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.159 get organized. I think it would also be helpful to have maybe like a 207 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.639 content audit, like someone to tell me you should not be talking about these 208 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:28.159 things but this is actually really good. You should be talking about this and 209 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:31.000 I think that it's a simple thing, but an effective thing, to just 210 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.279 ask for help, to say like, what do you think of the content 211 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.120 that I've been putting out? So for me, my action items are declare 212 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.919 and organized and then ask for some feedback. HMM, this has been a 213 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:50.679 fun one. It's thought provoking and it's just real right. I think anybody 214 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.360 that's listening to this is going to feel this tension, whether you're creating content 215 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:58.360 for a company or you're thinking about your Solo brand and what you're doing as 216 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.279 an individual on social or whatever platforms. So, who it's not one whet. 217 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:07.000 We're wrapping up going here's the answers, and you definitely should do this. 218 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.840 It's just an ongoing conversation we should all be having. If you want 219 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.600 to connect with any of us, do that over on Linkedin. We want 220 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.720 to be talking to you and we would love your input. If you have 221 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:22.000 ways that help you create content and helped you hone in on a couple key 222 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:26.480 pillars, I would love to know what's working for you. Right now, 223 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:30.240 we're about to jump into a conversation and interview that I did with Scott Miller. 224 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.200 He is the senior advisor of thought leadership at Franklin Cuvey Leadership Institute. 225 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:41.120 This conversation is one on the perils of self centered marketing and I know you're 226 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:46.399 going to find it insightful and Scott rings a great energy to the show. 227 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:50.440 So let's tune in check this out. Welcome back to be to be growth. 228 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.799 Today I am joined by Scott Miller. He is the senior advisor at 229 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:58.679 Franklin Covey. Scott, we are so glad to have you here today, 230 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.559 man, and see my an or man. Thanks for the spotlight and the 231 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.639 platform, for sure. So let's do this. Let's just start with like 232 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:09.559 a flyover, maybe some high level perspective. Give me some brief context around 233 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:15.679 the background that you have as it pertains to marketing specifically. Sure. So 234 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.720 I spent four years at the Walt Disney Company, the Disney Development Company. 235 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.919 They invited me to leave, which is a different interview and different podcast. 236 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:26.919 And Twenty seven years ago so I moved from Orlando and went to Salt Lake 237 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.840 City, Utah, where I joined the cuvey leadership center, now the Franklin 238 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.399 Cuvey Company, the world's largest and most trusted leadership development firm, founded, 239 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.879 of course, by the famous author Stephen Are County, of the seven habits 240 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.759 of highly effective people. I was the chief marketing officer for a decade yeah 241 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:48.720 that company and then became the executive vice president of thought leadership. We've sold 242 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:52.559 sixty million copies across all of our titles. Retired from the company about a 243 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:58.360 year ago. I still am the advisor to them on all things thought leadership, 244 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:03.600 public relations books and their entire book strategy. I have authored five books 245 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:08.279 on my own. I host the world's largest weekly leadership podcast called on leadership, 246 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.080 with Scott Miller. What if it what? A few books about marketing. 247 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:15.240 Made a few marketing mistakes along the way and feel free to tap into 248 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:22.279 my reservoir a couple of successes today. That's perfect, because I think for 249 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.679 so many and I've had this conversation a few times, but it feels like 250 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:30.720 in marketing right everything is shiny and we need to highlight some of the mess 251 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.600 because behind the scenes marketing is all sorts of experiments and trial and error and 252 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:37.840 every but we all look so shiny on the outside, Scott. So thank 253 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.519 you for even titling your books with mess in the title. That is a 254 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:45.639 wonderful way to think of marketing. Well, I think it's true. I 255 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.039 think the best marketers are those that are willing to walk into the CEO or 256 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.919 the investors and say a cable, this didn't work and that did not work 257 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:57.200 and this was a total flop, and all those were my ideas. This 258 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.080 one shows some glimmer of hope and so we're doubling down on this for looking 259 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:03.920 at all the metrics. Those are the best marketers. I mean, every 260 00:17:03.920 --> 00:17:11.279 CEO's nightmare is the CMO that spins the marketing message internally like they do externally. 261 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.440 I honestly got I think it's why I lasted ten years as Cemo of 262 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.440 a public company, you know, three times the national average. Not because 263 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:23.359 I was a marketing genius. I just told the truth to the CEO and 264 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.680 talk transparently around what wasn't wasn't working, so we could get it together and 265 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.240 and unpack. You know what, what we could do more of and do 266 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.680 less of. HMM. Well, let's talk about some of the obstacles that 267 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:38.000 stand in the way. So, as you've worked with marketing teams, what 268 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:42.359 would you say you see as the largest obstacle that stands in the way of 269 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:48.119 us being successful. You know, Donald Miller is a good friend of mine. 270 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:49.400 I've written a lot about he. He's endorsed my books, of course, 271 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:53.319 building a story brand and all the other books that Donald written right about 272 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:57.880 of Nashville. You know, Donald Talks so much about the heroes journey that 273 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.279 so much of our market is self referenced. Is that it's about, you 274 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:06.240 know, our R D our mission, our vision, our values, our 275 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:11.960 purpose, our expertise and me, me, me, and it's understandable. 276 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:17.160 You could ask your home second mortgage your home right. You've put your life 277 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:21.720 work into that. Your grandfather, Jose or pepe, brought the butt, 278 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.960 the ingredients for your secret sauce, over and underwear. Herb on the titanic 279 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.039 made it. You get the point right it yeah, you, you're so 280 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.200 emboldened and holding, if you will, to your to your mission. Most 281 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:40.119 clients don't care what your mission is or your values or your vision. They 282 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.960 want to see themselves in your message. If they can't see themselves in your 283 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.319 marketing message, if you're not using words that they use, acronyms that they 284 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.440 knew, use your chest, you've got a very expensive monument to yourself. 285 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.519 HMM. This might be dismissed by most people, but how often are you 286 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.920 spending your time listening and talking with your clients and using the language that they 287 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:06.359 use to solve the problems that they're facing? Very few of US do. 288 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:10.519 That takes discipline, it takes you moving outside your comfort zone and checking your 289 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:12.480 ego, which is tough for all of us. HMM. Well, I 290 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.200 want to hit on that and I want to go go pretty deep there for 291 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.880 the next fifteen, twenty minutes here with you and just talk about self centered 292 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:23.000 marketing, because it's something that I feel like we can peel back the layers 293 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:29.160 on and then help diagnose and wherever you are listening to this today, right, 294 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:33.640 we can always be readjusting, evolving, thinking about how we're so guilty 295 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.680 of this, because I know this is even a check for me in my 296 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.559 marketing efforts. Right. So, you say it pretty often that we as 297 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:45.039 marketers are we're so focused on what we love versus what our customers need. 298 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:48.920 We're focused on what we love versus what our customers need. What do you 299 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:52.680 mean by what marketers love? Like flesh that out for me. What do 300 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.400 the marketers get obsessed with? That our customers aren't so interested in. Well, 301 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.799 I think it's there's a couple ways to approach this. One is I 302 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.559 think we, like most of us, we speak the way we like to 303 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:08.559 listen. We know, so I might, to speak it a loud voice 304 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:15.119 and a charismatic, fast paced and not everyone listens that way. We market 305 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:19.200 similarly. I mean most CMOS I know have a passion around either, you 306 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:25.720 know, Goo, go analytics or social media or sceo or direct mail or 307 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:30.640 email or billboards or, you know, video. I think most of US 308 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.319 market the way we like to be marketed to. Now most people will say 309 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.000 that's not true, but I think there's inherently some of that true. So 310 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:45.079 first I would say make sure that you're not deploying or employing tools and channels 311 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.680 modalities that don't just exercise your own creative juices. It don't bring you a 312 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:53.440 level of satisfaction it can. Takes a really humble, confident person to say 313 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.680 you know what, Scott, you might be right. The reason I'm doing 314 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:02.519 videos because I'm very visceral and very visual, or maybe I'm doing podcast because 315 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.599 I like an auditory approach, or I'm creating direct mail pieces because I still 316 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.480 love direct mail. Yeah, there's a place for all of that in your 317 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:12.000 marketing mix. Right. Frankly, I think direct mail has had a resurgence 318 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.920 in the pandemic. As long as if I can find the right address. 319 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.599 Direct mail is certainly I read all my mail that comes my mailbox. I 320 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:26.079 don't read that nine hundred emails I get a day across for in boxes and 321 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.480 instagram and Linkedin and facebook. Yeah, first is to make sure that your 322 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:34.519 marketing and a channel that your customers are in and they're focused on right right 323 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:40.119 the right channel in your myths. Second is, I think, to make 324 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:41.839 sure that you are speaking the language of your customer, that you're speaking the 325 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.680 language of the business. You know, when I say engagement, you might 326 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:49.400 mean leadership, but I say culture, you might mean preductivity, understanding the 327 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:55.079 job could be done. What is the problem your client, prospective client, 328 00:21:55.200 --> 00:22:00.319 is trying to solve and are you meeting and finding them in a way that 329 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.799 resonates with them? You know, Franklin convey is a great example. For 330 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:07.920 years we would use words like stewardship. Yep, I mean like your God, 331 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:14.079 responsibilities, whatever, religious organization, where Public Company, the people would 332 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:18.240 we hear the word stewardship and think church. Yep, it's church word. 333 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:21.960 Yep, and we would say don't know, that's that's what we call. 334 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:23.440 People would say, wait, are you church? No, you're not church. 335 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.920 So for us it was a natural word to use to describe your job 336 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.359 responsibilities, and someone at last ail US might say yeah, no, thank 337 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.880 you, next, next, next, ender. So I think it's just 338 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:38.039 so important to not only do what you like and no best, but also 339 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.680 make sure you're speaking the language of your business but also the language of the 340 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:45.759 market place in the client as well. Okay, so let's look at a 341 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:51.799 companies that are firing on all cylinders and how are they answering this call to 342 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:55.880 be customer for so you, yes, it's important to meet customers where they 343 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:57.759 are, but like, do you have a couple examples? When you think 344 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:03.319 man, even in your the think the ways you're being marketed to Scott where 345 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.759 companies meet you where you are and you go man, that's impressive. That 346 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:15.079 the way that they've taken on. Maybe my vantage point, I'll tell you 347 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.759 once not coming to mind immediately, and I get a lot of email and 348 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:22.160 direct mail. I happen to be at buyer of Mercedes that's the car that 349 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:26.079 I like. I find technology, the comfort and safety to the best of 350 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.640 class and I have members of my family in that car. They send me 351 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.920 probably three pieces of Directmail a week. Literally, they send me three pieces 352 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.599 of direct mail oh week, you know, and so they're always they know 353 00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:44.039 my buying patterns right. They know that about every two years I'm probably moving 354 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.640 my wife out of a car into a new card itch in your looking right. 355 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:49.279 So they know, they know, so they they probably do a great 356 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.119 job. I don't mean that to be elitist at all. I just happen 357 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.799 to like driving Mercedes and that's been an indulgent that I've worked to earn. 358 00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:00.519 So I think we're Sades. has done a good job of knowing my buying 359 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:06.960 patterns and that they reach out to me frequently, probably too frequently. I'm 360 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:10.440 trying to think of you know, the montage is a hotel chain that we 361 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.839 like to indulge in and stay as a high or five star hotel chain. 362 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:17.279 We can't afford it every season of the year. We can never afford it 363 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.079 a Christmas or Thanksgiving, your Easter, but you know, in July you'll 364 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:23.759 find us in Mexico, a montage because rates are the lowest. But I 365 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:30.839 think the montage resort is another good group that they also know our buying patterns 366 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.359 and to make sure that they know that our boys are agings. So they're 367 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.599 marketing new adventures for the boys and camps and things like that. So there's 368 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.000 a couple of them. I actually don't think it's an expertise of most marketers 369 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.400 exactly. Marketers fall into the trap, but they were taught in Business School 370 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:51.279 of this concept of total addressable market. When a fact seth goat and also 371 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.359 a dear friend of mine and a genius, will tell you it's the opposite 372 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:57.599 of what you do. Resist the idea of the total addressable market. That's 373 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:03.519 great for your Small Business Admin loan or your DC funding. Instead, focus 374 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.920 on your smallest biable market. Are the exact people in Salt Lake City that 375 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:14.240 should be vacationing at the CABBO MONTAGE in July? I who could afford that? 376 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.359 What is that segment of customer? It's unnatural. Yep, it requires 377 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.839 a lot of discipline that is unnatural for most of us. Most of us 378 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:25.920 are just kind of praying, praying as praying. Do you think that that? 379 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.079 I think this is perfect, because you're going I actually don't have that 380 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:32.720 many examples. I totally agree with you. So when you think of that, 381 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:34.279 do you think it's from a place of like you mentioned, just like 382 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.039 a business school thing. It's how we were brought up and taught and that's 383 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.759 how our brain thinks, or is it something that's like laziness or selfishness? 384 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.680 I mean like, what are we missing there? That might be a missing 385 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:48.079 ingredient for us and the marketers listening to go. Okay, Hey, I 386 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.799 need to maybe readjust and we'll get into some solutions in a second. But 387 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:55.960 what do you think leaves us in that space where it's so hard to actually 388 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.599 put ourselves in someone else's shoes in our marketing? I think a couple of 389 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:03.720 things. I think the marketing world has changed diametrically and the last three to 390 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:11.319 four years around analytics and data and really understanding how to actualize decisions and investments 391 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.480 based on data. So I'll bet, I'll bet if you were to interview 392 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.359 Marriott and Ford and you know some of these big companies, I'll bet you 393 00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:30.079 the majority of their marketing investments are heavily metric oriented. But that's the fortune. 394 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.400 Five thousand then there's throughout to the fortune a hundred thousand right on. 395 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.279 UNPOP small businesses don't have access to that. Don't have maybe a left brain, 396 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:41.759 think you don't have analytical mind, where their marketing is a little more 397 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.319 kind of trial and air. It's email base, maybe it's s SEO base, 398 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.799 maybe it's social ads and things like that. So I'll bet you there's 399 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:53.720 more cases than I'm aware of because that's not my world every day to day 400 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:57.000 to day out basis. You know. But you know, you you look 401 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:00.960 at why someone still places an add in the back of people magazine and manial 402 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.319 out show is a good friend of mine. He's a former NFL player, 403 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:07.279 ESPN analyst, wrote a few books. You know, he's everywhere. He's 404 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.920 on the back cover of every magazine right now in America, as the face 405 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:18.599 of Lexis literally people US magazine. The economist I mean, and I really 406 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.559 Emmanuel like you're in the back cover of every single magazine. So just everyone 407 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.680 drive Alexis. I I I've got a guess. Lexis, which is, 408 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:27.759 I think, owned by Nissan, and my right or to I don't want 409 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:32.680 of the two, but I I have often wondered. I wonder why a 410 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:37.440 Manta show is on the back cover of like every single magazine right now. 411 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.599 Not everyone is in the market the by Alexis. So I still think a 412 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:42.720 lot of marketing is still the art right, yea, you know, but 413 00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:47.119 that famous phrase. I know at least fifty percent of my marketing budget is 414 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:49.240 working. I just don't know which fifty percent it is. Still come up 415 00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:53.039 at. And every level of business fortune one hundred down the you know, 416 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.440 Mama. HMM. Well, we're as we start to wrap this thing up, 417 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.880 I want to spend the rest of our time together just going okay, 418 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:06.279 like, let's put ourselves in in a marketer shoes. will say, Heather, 419 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.920 she's a marketing leader, she's in her organization, she's coming to you, 420 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.720 Scott, she's going. All Right, I've identified in these first few 421 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:18.440 minutes listening to this conversation, got some self centered marketing going on. Where 422 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:22.279 do I begin to turn the ship? What are some maybe diagnostic questions you 423 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.160 would ask? First, what would you be looking to do to get yourself 424 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.960 out of that mindset and into your customer shoes? I think four five things. 425 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:34.799 First is, do you really understand who is your customer? What is 426 00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:40.160 the job to be done? What is the problem they're trying to solve? 427 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:42.759 Do you really know what their problem is? That not what is your solution? 428 00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:47.200 Not Problems that the problems that you want to solve, but the problems 429 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:51.079 that your ideal client wants to solve. Have you interviewed them? Do you 430 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:52.839 know how they found you? Do you know why they bought your product? 431 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:57.480 Not why the salesperson says they bought their Protubius. She called the client said, 432 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.839 how are we doing? Why did you buy us for someone else? 433 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.000 How did you find out about this? Get Out your office. If your 434 00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:07.839 office, it's not asking the client, because not asking the salesperson why they 435 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:12.640 bought call the client or clients, and then you can beget to develop look 436 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:15.680 alikes. Right, okay. So if this client bought us for this reason, 437 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.319 how can we find more clients in that space? One is what is 438 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:22.160 the job to be done, what is the problem they're trying to solve, 439 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:27.200 and how do you create look alikes? AVATAR's customer journey. Right, understand 440 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.480 what was their journey to your brand and how can you get more people in 441 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:34.160 that same journey? Next, I would really be listening to them. I 442 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:38.799 think as marketers, were probably right brain. We're strong communicators. were very 443 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:45.559 creative. We like to create email templates and websites and viral campaigns. No 444 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.359 such thing as a viral campaign, of course, and so I think we 445 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.880 have to be more thoughtful around. Are we listening enough? HMM. Are 446 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:55.440 we looking at the data? Do we have the metrics upon which to make 447 00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:59.880 good decisions? I'll tell you, I think most of us don't like that 448 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.319 part of marketing. It's not pretty fun. It's kind of boring. Right. 449 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:04.799 Is the metric analysis and looking at what is the data show us to 450 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.359 we have the right metrics and to do some more testing. Are we willing 451 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.319 to do test? You know, test three types of email versus, you 452 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:15.559 know, create your email, print your database and this blow it out, 453 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.440 versus let's seat it out over the course of a couple of days, different 454 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:22.440 times, different days, different audiences, different subject lines. For my favorite 455 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.839 business is in fact subject LINECOM. One of my friends owns it. But 456 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.119 it's a great way to test and kind of get the ranking of what is 457 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.319 your subject line for emails. And Be careful. Don't blow all your gunpowder 458 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.759 in your first email. Be Thoughtful and tested over time and see which ones 459 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.759 work through, which audiences. On that one, I have to say for 460 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:47.319 marketers, even if you find it boring but you want to grow in your 461 00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:51.119 career, the two areas that are going to cause the most career grows for 462 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.960 you as a marketer is getting better with data and getting better at business strategy 463 00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.119 over all, being able to talk to people outside of marketing about not only 464 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:04.920 what you do but understand what the businesses objectives are as a whole. Benjie 465 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:10.720 Amen, right. As a marketer you need to know how your business makes 466 00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:15.559 money. Right, must be like an expert on your money making model, 467 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:19.319 margin, cash velocity, customers and growth. I tell most people who worked 468 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:23.759 under me, leave marketing and go over and become a sales forcecom Ninja, 469 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:29.720 like literally leave marketing, go over to sales or two operations, become a 470 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:34.920 Ninja expert on pipeline, lead scoring, lead generation, understanding all the conversion 471 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:38.839 and then come back to marketing and become a Marquetto or an eloquaw or some 472 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:42.519 other kind of expert. But you're absolutely right. Most of marketers have that 473 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:48.799 marketing language and sales thinks they're idiots because sales has things. They don't have 474 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.240 any idea how to build a pipeline how to score and convert. I love 475 00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:56.880 your evangelization around that. HMM, anything else you would add to that list 476 00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.039 that you would say? These are things you need to be thinking about, 477 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:02.400 questions you want to be asking. I would say bruise hard and heal fast, 478 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.960 like that is going to work. So be that kind of marketer that 479 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:12.400 is super transparent. Don't hide it. Don't be the marketer that says well, 480 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:14.640 you know, if you look at it from this angle, you know, 481 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:15.839 if you look at you know, opens or clicks. You know, 482 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:21.799 yes, you know. A person with a big vocabulary can defend anything. 483 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:27.680 Don't be that marketer, be super transparent. I I'll hire a marketer that's 484 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:32.359 truthful over one who's a genius storyteller or spinner every day, because now I 485 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:37.359 got somebody in my boat rowing with me. We're testing, we're tweaking, 486 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.319 we're bruising hard, but we're healing fast or pivoting, we're turning. That's 487 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.839 where you're going to find your voice, in your your magic is just trying 488 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:49.519 different things. Marketing as much as an art as it is anything but being 489 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.480 willing to admit your mistakes. Turn on a dime. That is such a 490 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.599 valuable skill and any career, but especially in marketing, don't go down with 491 00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:00.759 the ship. Yeah, I often find my self saying whose idea was that? 492 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.599 Oh wait, that was mine. That was insanely stupid. Let's not 493 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.960 do that again. Who has a better idea? I think the best marketers 494 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:14.480 are those that have the least ego. HMM, but most marketers have some 495 00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:17.000 sort of ego. We, I would say we all do right. Some 496 00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:22.359 can't see it in the mirror. We're talking to marketer specifically, but hey, 497 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.599 I do. I couldn't agree more, and I think your ego sometimes 498 00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:29.680 is what made you good at art in the first place, but it won't 499 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.599 keep you there right. So, if you're one of those types like figure 500 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.440 out a way to kill the ego and know that your ideas aren't you detach 501 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:45.359 those things. Humility is born out of confidence. Confident people, confident marketers, 502 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:51.720 are capable of demonstrating humility. It's arrogance. Arrogant marketers are incapable of 503 00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:55.160 demonstrating humility. To your point, it's the most confident season people that could 504 00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:59.279 admit that's not working, stop that, turn it off, let's test something 505 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:04.279 else. Just going all in and then spending all of your created energy figuring 506 00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:07.039 out how to position why it wasn't a bad idea. Just admitute, cut 507 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:12.440 your losses and pivoted something else. You can tell of a season that a 508 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.199 person is in in their career because it takes so much courage at the beginning, 509 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:20.119 and courage and arrogance can sometimes be together. You almost need the arrogance 510 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.679 to jump out of the boat right and then, as your career goes on, 511 00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:28.039 you move from like courage to boldness to confidence, and then arrogance goes 512 00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:30.039 down right because you're like, okay, I've done this a few times and 513 00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:35.079 I realized my ideas aren't me and you're detaching certain things. So it's such 514 00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:39.360 an interesting way that that works, as evidenced by my book called Marketing, 515 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:45.360 Mess Brand success. That took I couldn't have written that book in My S. 516 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:47.960 I had to write that book in My S. MMM. Well, 517 00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:52.599 this has been so interesting. I love this conversation, Scott, and you 518 00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:53.719 just brought up your book. So I do want you to take a minute 519 00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:58.480 real quick plug the things you're working on right now, ways that people can 520 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:01.480 connect with with you. Thanks, benchie. So you can visit me at 521 00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:07.360 Scott Jeffrey millercom I write a magazine column for ink magazine, host a couple 522 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:12.119 podcasts, like you do, my book and I referenced His Marketing Mess to 523 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:15.320 brand success. That's the second book in the mess of success series. The 524 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:21.599 first book was management mess to leadership success. Coming out sing will be job 525 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:25.360 ness to career success and communication mess to influence success. I've also written a 526 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:30.920 series of books called master mentors that are based on the podcast that I host 527 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:35.119 on leadership with Scott Miller and I'm just honored to be on your stage today. 528 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.320 Thank you, Veggie. So Fun to get to have this conversation. 529 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:40.599 For those listening, connect with Scott. We would love for you to do 530 00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:44.559 that and hey, you can connect with me on Linkedin. Just Search Benjie 531 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.360 Block and would love to talk to you more about marketing, business and life. 532 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:50.920 And if you aren't subscribed to be to be growth yet, you can 533 00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:54.920 do that on whatever your favorite podcast platform is. And will always be coming 534 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:59.679 out with content like this to help stoke our fire in marketing right and help 535 00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.239 make a better marketers, more humble marketers. Coming out of this conversation those 536 00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:05.599 that are willing to admit we don't have it all figured out, but we 537 00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.280 are doing our best and we're continuing to get better. Hey, keep doing 538 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:12.880 work that matters. Will back real soon with another episode and Scott, thank 539 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:27.559 you so much for being with us today. Man, if you enjoyed a 540 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:30.559 day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness. And if you really enjoyed 541 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.440 today show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform 542 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.920 you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, 543 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:43.079 share the love by texting you to a friend who would find it insightful. 544 00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.480 Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.