Transcript
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Yeah,
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welcome back to BTB Growth. I'm dan
Sanchez with Sweet Fish Media and today
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I'm here with Robin Robins, who is the
founder and Ceo of Big Red Media. Robin,
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welcome to the show. Hey dan, how are
you? Thank you for having me. It's a
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privilege to have you on here. When I
asked Adam Woody, who is kind of like
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the thought leader or the person who
has the attention of lots of technology
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companies since a lot of tech founders
and cmos and VPs and marketing listen
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to this show. He you were the first
person that he said. So I was excited
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to finally have you on the show since
Adam recommended you someone who speaks
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directly to technology companies and
helping them with marketing challenges
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all the time. As you know, we are on
this deep dive. This journey into
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thought leadership, that where we're
picking apart the topic, we're looking
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at it as at its strength. We're looking
at its weaknesses where even having
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debates about this topic on whether
it's actually a thing or not. I know as
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you've done so much marketing that it
probably is a thing. It is while it is
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a bit of a buzzword, I'm excited to
hear your thoughts, Robin on what a
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tech company specifically you do on
their journey to becoming thought
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leaders in the space. But before we get
there, I want to hear your thoughts on
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if you feel like it's relevant at all
today. Like what's what's your position
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on the term? Thought leader? Is it kind
of a cringing term? Is it a real thing?
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Like where do you sit as far as where
thought leadership is? Well, I think
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the term is another sort of, you know,
new, innovative way of labeling
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something, you know, I'm not I'm not
for it, I'm not against it. You know,
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it's just like with me and my my
business we practice and we teach
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direct response marketing well, direct
response has been around forever, right?
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It's not like not recently invented,
but yet you have people like Seth Godin
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who came up with the term permission
marketing, which is essentially a
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direct response or hubspot coming up
with inbound marketing, which is
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essentially direct response. Or you
have people talk about content
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marketing, which is essentially direct
response. So if you like the term
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thought leadership and that has meaning
to you and you can define it then great.
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But to me, I think the goal and again,
this is my opinion, but my goal and I
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think the goal of many people who start
a business is not to necessarily become
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a thought leader. That's not the end
goal that may be uh to become one,
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helps you reach the ultimate goal,
which is I have a growing, thriving,
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profitable, sustainable business. Um,
and I think that's really what we, I
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think that's what most people want. I
mean, that's what I would want. Um, I
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shouldn't say most people, I mean,
again, I'm projecting, but, but so the
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term thought leadership, I think is
what they're really trying to say, I
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believe is you want to become an
authoritative expert in a topic matter.
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So I mean, if that's kind of how I
interpret it, so again, I'm, I don't
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use the term thought leader because I
do think it's a little cringe e at this
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point because it feels a little, you
know, like, hey, we're gonna be doing
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branding or, you know, all these sort
of newer terms, but at the end of the
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day, people who come to me, the
business owners would come to me,
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they're all tech business owners. They
want more customers, high paying
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customers that are profitable, that
they want a sustainable business. They
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want to make money consistently build
strength in their business, not just
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sales. And so that's what, that's what
we do, and that's what I do. So when
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you say it would be fun to kind of see
like where it falls in the spectrum for
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you um direct response marketing as I
know, it's kind of like on the other
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side from like your high level brand
advertising kind of marketing, right?
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Is that where you put? It's kind of
like, it's on the other side from it
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and then there's like many things that
kind of fallen between branding and
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direct response marketing. Yeah. When
you say direct response, you're you're
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talking like the old school Lester
wonderman type of coming coming from
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direct sales, where it's like you find
your target audience, you approach them
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with an ad that tells them exactly like
it just cut straight to the point,
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right? We have this product that has
these benefits to it. Yeah, I mean like
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people think that what you say, but you
think that it's like old school like
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you mentioned, but google is the
biggest direct response marketer in the
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world. I mean it's pay per click,
that's that's what it is. I mean they
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provide free search and maps to get the
audience there. But essentially how
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they make their money is I have an ad
and it's based on a keyword you're
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searching on. So there's a target
market with a need and I pay when you
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click and that's direct response, it's
per action type marketing, so it's not
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necessarily old school, you know, I
think that's the thing. People think
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that it's old and therefore it doesn't
work anymore. But over and over again,
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I can I can with with absolute
certainty tell you if your goal is to
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get a customer who's going to write you
a check, then the fastest path to
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getting there is running in
implementing direct response marketing.
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And I know again these terms, you know,
sales funnels, funnel hacking, I mean
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it's all that's all direct response,
just a little more sophisticated way of
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explaining it. So yeah, so again, brand
and I'm branding, I I don't think
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they're mutually exclusive because I've
never run a branding campaign in my
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life. However, I've done a lot of
direct response marketing and by doing
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that, I have built a brand and kind of
tying back into your thought leadership.
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A brand is uh and by the way, you don't
really control your brand, you can
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influence it, but your brand is
established in the minds of your
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customers. Um but you know, it's being
known for something, you know, it's
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it's that's what a brand is. And I
think small business owners who have
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smaller budgets, we're not talking
about, you know, Pepsi and we're not
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talking about Nike now, but you know,
they spending money on pure branding
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exercises is usually very, very
wasteful because to really, if you're
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going to do that kind of branding, you
can't run one ad. It's like you've got
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to run a lot ads in a lot of places
over and over again and it's extremely
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expensive to do. It does not guarantee
sales. And you've got a still have some
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sort of direct response where people
can come and buy your software, your
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services, your product. Right? So again,
I don't think they're they're mutually
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exclusive. I think you can do direct
response and reap the benefits of list
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building and building a pipeline of
tomorrow's customers and getting
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customers today while simultaneously
building your brand. Yeah, I absolutely
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agree with you in that direct response
marketing is powerful. In fact, I think
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it happened a long time ago, but it's
been tried and true. Like it continues
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to be a fantastic method of marketing.
I know I got my start marketing doing
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google adwords so and perry marshall
was kind of like my first marketing
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guru that I learned from because he was
a fantastic direct response marketer
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and it still is like the undercurrent
of pretty much everything I do as a
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marketer, right? If you if you don't
have some kind of like thing action you
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want people to take and you haven't
gotten good at figuring out what baby
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steps you can do to get them there,
then your market is probably gonna fall
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flat. Like you said, ads without a call
to action of some kind is just not
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going to go anywhere. I mean, and it's
market research because if I put an ad
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out for something, whether that's a
lead generation bait kind of thing,
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like a free report or a video or it's a
coupon for to buy something when you
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put it out there, you instantly know
whether or not it's working. You know,
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if people are really interested in that
or not interested in that. So, direct
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response is very accountable, which is
why a lot of agencies don't want to
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practice it because they quickly figure
out, you know, I'm spend all this money
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and I'm not generating leads and sales
and customers, you know, so that's why
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a lot of agency shy away from it
because it's far easier to do branding
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than it is to do direct response. But
it's it gives you instant feedback
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because if I, if I decide to host a
webinar and I only get 1% of my
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audience registering I say only, but
whatever, if I get 1% responding, if I
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do another webinar and I get 10%
responding and registering, I instantly
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know to my audience to my list.
Whatever the topic was that got the 10%
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is clearly where their interest lies
and I should put more focus on that and
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therefore should be writing articles
about that, doing seminars about that,
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writing books about it, being a thought
leader about it, because that's what,
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that's what direct response does. It's
the customer votes with their
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pocketbook or they vote with their
attention, their clicks, their options.
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And so the other thing that direct
response gives you is that real market
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intelligence that is not biased by your
opinion, by the opinion of your
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marketing gurus or whoever it is, um,
not by the opinion of your staff or
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your spouse, not what you think will
work, not what you respond to, its what
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they respond to. And if you want to be
your again, use your term thought
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leader. If you want to be a thought
leader, you know, step one is you got
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to figure out what is going to bring
all the, you know, what milkshakes
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gonna bring all the boys to the yard.
You know, you gotta, you gotta figure
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that out and that's what direct
response does. So to kind of come back
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to the question, if a tech founder came
to you and wanted to position
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themselves at the thought later, and
maybe that's the best thing for them.
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Maybe, maybe it's not, maybe there's
things maybe they got, maybe let's just
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say they got the basics cover when it
comes to direct response. Um, but it's
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very tactical right now. They're
bidding on adwords um, when people find
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them and see their value prop than it
works out, but they want to be more
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well known in the industry, right? You
sometimes you hit a certain barrier
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where you're getting all the people
that are searching for the exact thing
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you do. But there's not a lot of people
who even are solution aware, but
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there's a lot of people who are problem
aware of the thing the company
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addresses and they're just not exactly
searching for the solution yet. It
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happens a lot with tech because they're
breaking into new industries and
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solving problems or solving problems
that people don't even know their
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solutions for. What steps would you
give to a tech founder who then wants
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to head into this place called thought
leadership marketing or to become
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authority in their industry? Yeah, I
mean I've never had in my 20 years of
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doing this and working with tech
companies, I've never ever had a single
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customer come to me and say I want to
be a thought leader on this, like not
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once. So I don't think it's the
language of small business, you know,
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it might be the language of marketers
who are trying to sell the small
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business saying you need to be a
thought leader, right? Because every
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business owner that I've ever talked to
work with, the goal is how do I get the
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maximum number of right fit customers?
Just not all customers, but how do I
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get the right customers who want to
engage with me, do business with me?
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And so, you know, to that end the first
step And this is tough for me, every,
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again, 20 years of working with well
over 10,000 firms. the single biggest
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challenge most have is they have to
figure out who their customer is first
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and they really are fuzzy about that.
Like if you, if you press them a bit
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and you ask them, you know, tell me who
your ideal customer is, Your slam Dunk
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one, they give you really big broad
general terms. Well like, well when
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they use terms like anybody who right,
that's that's where I get nervous
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unless they put some additional
qualifiers on that, you know, so
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anybody who has between 10 and 100 pcs,
anybody who's in this geographic area,
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anybody who's using this kind of tech,
anybody who has this kind of problem.
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And so when you start using those terms,
it's okay if you start there anybody
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who has this problem and has this this
this this this in common. So I think
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first and foremost most people are
really fuzzy about who they're trying
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to attract and until you know exactly
who's your, your sweet spot customer,
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the one who's the slam dunk the most
likely to buy. The one you can do your
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best work for until your crystal clear
on that. You're gonna be wasting a lot
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of time money and effort writing
articles, blog post google paper, like
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you name it and you're gonna be
attracting a lot of people that you
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just gotta sift and sort through. So my,
what I tell my clients is you've got to
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remove a lot of the haystack before you
start looking for needles and you gotta
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actually know that you want a needle
first. Right? So that would be step one
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is you really got to get crystal clear
on who that customer is. And then the
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second thing you've got to really
understand is how they think, how they
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behave, what they value because you're
right. Most people are problem aware.
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They're not necessarily solution where
and the big second, big problem tech
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companies have is they're so in love
with the technology and they're so
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geeked up about it. And I get it
because we're all geeked up about our
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stuff. I'm geeked up about direct
response marketing. I mean, you know,
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so we're all geeked up about our stuff,
but we forget that that's the customer,
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especially with tech, your average
business owner is not very technically
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savvy. It's an area that is uh, sort of
ambiguous to them. It's an area where
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they feel like they spend a lot and
don't see a lot of our oi for um, they
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see tech as a necessary evil. So, you
know, if you go into the average Ceo's
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office and you start telling them all
about the technical whiz bang
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awesomeness of your, whatever it is
that you're selling and you start g
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eking out to them, you're missing the
boat because that's not what they think
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about. That's not what they care about.
I mean, if you're, again, it goes back
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to knowing who your customer is. If
your customer is a small business owner,
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a big, it doesn't matter if your
customers, a business owner, they care
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about gaining new customers and
generating revenue and profitability
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and they want to eliminate risk from
their business. They want a sustainable
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business, They want less headaches. And
so whatever it is, you're selling from
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the tech, you've got to package it as a
solution to a problem that your ideal
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customer has. And then we've got to
convince them that why that solution
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versus all the other solutions that
they could possibly want. Okay, so once
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you get clear on your customer, once
you get clear on, here's the problem I
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solve. You know, then we have to start
getting into what are all the different
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ways. We can get somebody into that
funnel, that marketing funnel where
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they, first of all notice us and then
they start paying attention to us and
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then there's trust that's built and
then we get them to take action and
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more action. And so we, you know, we
draw them in that way. But again, until
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you're really clear on who that
customer is and what problems you solve
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specifically and you can articulate why
somebody should do business with you
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and by your thing, whatever the thing
is, all this thought leadership is just
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activity that's going to get you
nowhere. Hey everybody Logan was sweet
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fish here. You probably already know
that. We think you should start a
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podcast if you haven't already. But
what if you have and you're asking
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00:15:12.060 --> 00:15:16.690
these kinds of questions, How much has
our podcast impacted revenue this year?
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00:15:16.700 --> 00:15:21.060
How's our sales team actually
leveraging the podcast content? If you
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00:15:21.060 --> 00:15:25.620
can't answer these questions, you're
actually not alone. This is why cast it
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content while getting greater
visibility into the impact of your
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podcast. The marketing teams at drift
terminus and here at sweet fish have
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started using casted to get more value
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can too, you can check out the product
in action and casted dot us slash
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growth. That's C A S T E D dot us slash
growth. All right, let's get back to
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the show. It's not necessarily getting
you nowhere because a big part of
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marketing is trust and expertise. And
even in direct marketing you're just
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you're doing it in small ways
throughout your your landing pages and
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your conversion funnel. They tend to
just be smaller snippets of credibility
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building. It could be as simple as a
testimonial or an endorsement of some
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kind or I don't know having yourself
with a picture of somebody they would
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know and respect. You know on the on
the side of the page somewhere. Yeah.
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But again, let me just but again you
say it's not the way it is a waste of
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time because I'm telling you I've dealt
with 10,000 I. T. Business owners and
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they'll come to me and they'll say well
we're tweeting and posting and writing
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articles and we're doing all this stuff
and we're not getting any customers and
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so you know it's not that's the part
they overlook and then I press them
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well who is your customer? Are your
customers on facebook? Are they on
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twitter? Are they on youtube? Are they
you know and when you're doing these
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things, are you if they're there which
it is Arguable whether they are or not,
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are they? They're looking for what you
sell and then are you posting and
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creating content that is going to hook
them where they are, where their
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thoughts are. And it's like when you
start going down that path that's not
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what they're doing. So there's a lot of
activity going on but there's no
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results coming in. So. Yeah I mean it
is that is that is wasteful when you're
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just producing content to produce
content because uh, thought leadership
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going back to your, you know, of when
we'll say that's being known for
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something, well that requires content
creation and to do content, it's a big
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giant time suck. You've gotta, you know,
writing articles and doing videos and
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creating webinars and getting pictures
with celebrities and all this. It's
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like, it's a lot of time to create it,
you're competing with a lot of content
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online, you're competing with netflix
and amazon, you know, at that point for
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attention. So this is a very, very
difficult game and it's easy to fall
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into just doing a lot of activity and
not getting any results. And again, it
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goes back to you got to know who your
customers, you gotta know what problems
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they have, what they're interested in,
and then back into that with whatever
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it is that you sell. So how do you
establish credibility in your
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conversion funnels? Yeah, I mean, but
but again, if we can't we can't
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establishing credibility and trust is
after we've gotten their attention, if
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we can't get their attention, if we
can't get them to read the article, we
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can't get them to take action and we
can't continue that dialogue because
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they're not paying attention to us. You
can't build trust. So you could be
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putting tons of articles out there. But
if nobody is looking at it, nobody is
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reading it, nobody's clicking. You're
just doing a bunch of activity and
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getting nowhere fast for sure. And it
doesn't necessarily have to even be
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content out there. But how in the
conversion funnels, are you
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establishing trust is they're
discovering you and discovering that go,
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this is actually a solution that I've
seen for the first time. Maybe they
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clicked on a google Adwords ad or saw
you somewhere relevant where they had
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attention on it and now they're on your
website. How are you building
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credibility? Well, I think there's
there's a couple ways, I think the
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first thing is you have to be able to
articulate the problem they're having
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and how they feel about it even better
than they can, because that creates
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instant report for an instant trust. So
I don't know if you ever had a chance
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to interview chris voss my he's a good
friend of mine, he wrote the book,
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Never split the difference. It's a
brilliant book. He's a he's a brilliant
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guy. He was a former FBI head of the
FBI department that was for hostage
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negotiation for international hostages.
Like so if you're an american and you
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got kidnapped overseas, it was chris
and his team that negotiated you to
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safety, right? And so he, in his whole
book it's you've got to be able to
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articulate whatever the proposition is.
So that the person the prospect says
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that's right, not your right, but
that's right meaning whatever you just
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said, however, you just articulated the
problem, the statement the whatever
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instantly I go, that's right. You know,
and if like for example, if you watch
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news commentary, right? I mean the you
know, late rush Limbaugh laure you go
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and it doesn't matter whatever news
broadcaster who has an opinion, who
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they're you know, delivering an opinion
on the news, not just the news but
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which is almost all of them right? But
when they're doing that, when they make
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a statement, the recent people tune in
is because they're making statements
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where the average person is going,
that's right. And they want that person
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to be able to articulate why they feel
the way they do. And that creates
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follow people following them and tuning
in and reading what they write because
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they want to hear that person's opinion
about something. And so, you know, when
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you know your audience again goes back
to God know your customers when you can
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produce content that that the prospect
goes, that's right, you instantly get
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report okay. Um and and it can be not
just in articles. I mean, I just wrote
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about was give examples in our
newsletter every month. And there was a
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cleaning company that had this big full
page ad in some sort of publication,
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local publication newspaper I picked up.
And I mean, they spent for a full page
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ad and it was for a Mother's Day, adds
basically the add some kind of
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paraphrasing with something along the
lines of, you know, don't spend your
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mother's Day. Uh, like we get it that,
that was, I think it was something like
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we get it. You know, you're super busy,
don't spend your mother's day clean and
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give yourself a break. But the picture
that they had was of a woman. Now she
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was, you could tell it was manufactured
because it was a woman in a sort of
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dress suit. She has a baby on her hip
and she's got like her hand on like a
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spatula right now she's in the kitchen,
there's nothing in the pan. The kitchen
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is pristine, like pristine and its
modern looking and there's not like a
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single like toy on the floor. There's
no fingerprints on the, the
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refrigerator. There's no like spills on
the countertop or baby bottle stuff
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everywhere or dirty dishes piled up or
the groceries there. The person like it
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was pristine and instantly I said, you
know, they're trying to say, we get you
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moms, we know how it is because look,
we have a picture of a mom with a baby
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on her hip and she's got like a spatula
and she's got her phone like a phone
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and it's like they got that part right?
But they got the scene wrong. And so
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instantly I know whoever created that
at is not a mom because I'm a mom and
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my kitchen doesn't look like that,
right? I know what a kitchen looks like
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when you have a baby or two kids, you
know, and you're, you know, so you know,
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whatever in always the first thing you
do to build report and trust is you
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have to be able to communicate to that
prospect on a level about their
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problems, their situation, their
beliefs, their concerns what they
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aspire to, and it has to have a
connection and that's just so that's
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the first step. And again, that's a big
step. A lot of people don't get that
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right. And then beyond that, as far as
building trust, by the way, I should
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also kind of point out, we have this
term, we call the trifecta. So we we
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teach our clients, not just, it's not
just trust. You want to actually have
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celebrity authority and trust and
they're actually three different things
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and celebrity and authority when you
get in those categories, they also
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established trust. Right? So another
thing is to become a mini celebrity.
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Well, how do you become a mini
celebrity? Well, you public speaking,
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writing books, getting on the news,
being seen in, in in different venues
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with with key people, you know, all of
that builds celebrity. Being an
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authority means you actually can speak
to a particular topic with deep
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knowledge and expertise, not surface
level opinions. So if you really have
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deep research knowledge information on
statistics on whatever it is that your
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topic is, you know that helps build
authority as does publishing books and
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public speaking going back, you know,
they all kind of blend together. Um and
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then there's trust and trust really is
this this confidence we have in a
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person's honesty and integrity and
their moral character that they're
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going to do the right thing. All right.
So you look at someone like uh not to
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get political, but you look at like a
doctor Fauci. Now dr Fauci is a
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00:24:34.860 --> 00:24:39.840
celebrity. He's on the news and has
been on the news for over a year now. I
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don't think there's an american
household who doesn't know the name. So
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he is absolutely a celebrity. He is an
authority. I mean he has the
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credentials in the background to speak
about this virus and the infectious
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diseases. However, what he has is a
huge trust problem because he's
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backtracked on a couple of things. His
emails have now come out and people are
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now not trusting him. So when you're,
you know, so trust is also about
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consistency because that's where a lot
of politicians get in trouble.
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Especially in this youtube video.
Everything world, anything you ever
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utter on camera on a Youtube video on
facebook, on social media. You know,
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people in its forever recorded and if
you constantly flip flop or you're not,
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you don't have very clear definitive
guidelines about what is good, What is
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what people should do any time you have
gray fuzziness. See all those things
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destroy trust, lack of consistency
destroys trust. So, um and I'm not just
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talking about consistency in your
viewpoints, I'm talking about
353
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consistency and people seeing you. So
another way of building trust is
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they've got to see a lot of you, they
can't just see you like post-1 article
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a month because that's not gonna build
enough consistency, right? So they've
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00:25:49.750 --> 00:25:54.030
got a c in multiple media and they've
got to see the same sort of content
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coming up over and over again. I mean
if you're a magazine, you can't just
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publish once in a while, It's gotta be
on schedule. If you're a news media,
359
00:26:01.790 --> 00:26:05.600
you've got to publish where you gotta
put your video out on a certain
360
00:26:05.610 --> 00:26:11.250
schedule and that consistency in and of
itself builds trust. So just longevity,
361
00:26:11.260 --> 00:26:16.300
you know, or number of clients that you
have, if you have um you know, if
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you've been in business for a very long
time, although that alone won't build
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trust, it's just another check box. Um
and that's, and I should say all this
364
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stuff is like a layering effect. The
more you have of this, the more trust
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00:26:26.940 --> 00:26:31.670
you can build, right, so longevity,
consistency. A lot of clients, the
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right type of clients, if you have
celebrity clients, all of those things
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build trust and you know, so, so again,
celebrity authority and trust their
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three different things and you've got
to get them all, they all sort of
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support each other like a three legged
stool. Um and you want to have all this
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now, all of the, this the things I'm
describing here are a lot of work. And
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so, you know, again, another problem
where people get into is they creep
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into it do a little bit, you know, so
they want to be the thought leader on
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something, but like they don't publish
all the time. They, you know, they
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don't, they're not consistent with
videos. I mean, it's like, so it's
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either, I mean, I think people have to
understand the difficulty of the task
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to get to that point and, and it's it's
gonna be over a long term. I mean, I
377
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had a client the other day who was, you
know, his consulting, he's doing, he's
378
00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:22.680
been doing marketing for about a year
and he's, his cost per lead is still
379
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:27.090
extremely high and he says to me, I
can't continue doing this, I can't
380
00:27:27.100 --> 00:27:30.790
afford it. I want to get my cost per
lead more like what you're getting.
381
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Well, the problem is, Yeah, it took me
20 years to build my list and authority
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and trust and credibility, right? It
took me 20 years. He's in a year and he
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wants what I've got, it's like, well
dude, I mean we have things we can do
384
00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:50.100
to accelerate it, but you know you you
got to be in this for The long game and
385
00:27:50.100 --> 00:27:52.580
you gotta put all the work in, you
can't and he wasn't, there was 20
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00:27:52.580 --> 00:27:57.000
things he wasn't doing, he was just
doing one thing. I mean I did 30, 50
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things over 20 years and so again, I
think people missed, they don't
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understand the difficulty of the task
and you know, they kind of do it too
389
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timid and then they get frustrated and
give up and then they really get
390
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nowhere. So I know I'm a little bit
wandering Dan, you're going to have to
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00:28:10.890 --> 00:28:16.410
rein me in. It's been really good. I
think, I think when you say authority,
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celebrity and trust, I'm like to me
that equals thought leadership When you
393
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have when you're known for your
authority and people trust you. Um and
394
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we both know like when people perceive
you as that person in your industry
395
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that creates demand for you, which
makes it much easier. It's like you
396
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:39.780
have to do way less work on the direct
response marketing side to even get
397
00:28:39.780 --> 00:28:42.570
them into the pipeline and what they
get into the pipeline, they just shoot
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right through it because they're just
like you're just like, oh yeah, you
399
00:28:45.110 --> 00:28:48.010
should buy this and this and this and
they're just like, okay, okay yeah,
400
00:28:48.010 --> 00:28:52.160
whatever you say because they respect
you so much, they're willing to pay.
401
00:28:52.170 --> 00:28:54.590
They come to you with their kind of
wallets out already because they
402
00:28:54.590 --> 00:28:58.280
already trust and respect you. But like
you said, it takes it takes a long time.
403
00:28:58.290 --> 00:29:01.630
It's kind of a long game plan that I
think a lot of people can work on. But
404
00:29:01.630 --> 00:29:05.650
in the short term you can get a lot
done just having clear and concise
405
00:29:05.650 --> 00:29:09.450
marketing that targets a very specific
person with the specific problem and
406
00:29:09.450 --> 00:29:13.040
your solution does the best at
addressing that problem. And if you
407
00:29:13.040 --> 00:29:16.200
could just get clear with them and with
a very concise, unique selling
408
00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:20.860
proposition, you can kind of get them
in while you're building all that ah
409
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:24.320
thought leadership while you're
building the authority, the celebrity
410
00:29:24.330 --> 00:29:30.270
and the trust. Just just you know we
call it the cat trifecta. Smile mix
411
00:29:30.270 --> 00:29:32.950
right? You know what I mean? Because
it's celebrity authority and trust. You
412
00:29:32.950 --> 00:29:36.770
know we call it the trifecta because I
don't want people me yelling at me. But
413
00:29:36.780 --> 00:29:40.260
uh but yeah again you have to realize
that they are three different,
414
00:29:40.340 --> 00:29:44.880
distinctly different things and you got
to work on all of them because you can
415
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.880
have celebrity but not have authority
and trust. I mean there's a lot of
416
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:52.620
celebrities we know that we would not
trust to watch our dog, you know what I
417
00:29:52.620 --> 00:29:55.880
mean? Like and they might have an
authority on anything and then there's
418
00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:59.690
a lot of people who have authority,
they're very knowledgeable about their
419
00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:03.400
topic, but they don't have the
celebrity and they might not have the
420
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.510
trust because they haven't really built
that with the marketplace. So you got
421
00:30:06.510 --> 00:30:09.750
to think about all three of those
things. They're three distinct things
422
00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:13.430
and you want to, you know when, when
somebody has all three going for him,
423
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:17.370
that's when you really see somebody
take off. Like if you look at a Micro.
424
00:30:17.370 --> 00:30:22.190
So I had Micro speak at my event. Um,
it's probably about 34 years ago and
425
00:30:22.190 --> 00:30:27.620
Micro has thousands and thousands of
people who follow him. He, his, I asked
426
00:30:27.620 --> 00:30:31.510
him one of the questions, I'm like so
describe to me your business and he
427
00:30:31.510 --> 00:30:35.150
laughed, he really didn't answer. He,
he kind of pulled it off to his, his
428
00:30:35.150 --> 00:30:38.980
manager who was there, we were having
dinner and his manager, you know, uh
429
00:30:38.990 --> 00:30:43.390
sort of answered it. But basically he
is, I mean he's a celebrity endorsement,
430
00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:47.650
you know, because when he says ford
trucks are awesome and he's in their
431
00:30:47.650 --> 00:30:52.880
ads, people by four trucks because
Micro has celebrity authority and trust
432
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:57.570
with a very large audience and they,
you know, and they and that carries a
433
00:30:57.570 --> 00:31:01.350
lot of wait. So if you really want a
good example of that, then I would, I
434
00:31:01.350 --> 00:31:04.570
would submit to you someone like Mike
Rowe and you want to study and see what
435
00:31:04.570 --> 00:31:07.190
he's done. But you got to look back,
you can't just see what he's doing
436
00:31:07.190 --> 00:31:11.670
today. You got to look at what he did.
I mean he started out as a Q. V. C.
437
00:31:11.670 --> 00:31:16.670
Pitchman you know and gained his fame
that way and learn how to sell and how
438
00:31:16.670 --> 00:31:20.990
to influence people and how to be good
on camera and how to engage people and
439
00:31:20.990 --> 00:31:26.440
you know from there you know as dirty
jobs and uh you know Micro works the
440
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:29.970
foundation he's got I mean there's like
so many things he's done but if you
441
00:31:29.970 --> 00:31:32.360
want to see someone doing it really
right. He's the guy to look at
442
00:31:32.540 --> 00:31:36.600
fantastic. I think I'll dig a little
bit more deeper into his stories. Of
443
00:31:36.600 --> 00:31:41.780
course I know him most of us do. He's a
big name. You said a lot of the in the
444
00:31:41.780 --> 00:31:44.260
very beginning when I started talking
about some of the work and things
445
00:31:44.260 --> 00:31:48.210
people can do in order to become a
thought leader. You talked about it
446
00:31:48.210 --> 00:31:53.640
being busy work or work that was not
driving profit. I think we can both
447
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:57.760
agree that if you start with thought
leadership type of work, then you're
448
00:31:57.760 --> 00:32:00.780
gonna be running around in circles for
a while. The first thing any business
449
00:32:00.780 --> 00:32:04.870
has to do is get really clear in their
audience, have a clear like website
450
00:32:04.870 --> 00:32:07.980
with a strong value proposition that
essentially does good direct response
451
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:11.000
marketing. It's kind of like the basis
of the funnel. You have to be able to
452
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:14.930
have your marketing do good sales first.
Right. Well, I think well, yeah, I mean
453
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:19.350
you have to have a viable business
first, you know, I mean because you can
454
00:32:19.350 --> 00:32:23.460
be uh you know a celebrity and well
known and have a lot of viewers and and
455
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:26.260
followers and everything else, but if
you don't have something to sell them
456
00:32:26.260 --> 00:32:30.620
that they want to buy at a price point
that they'll pay for and stay engaged
457
00:32:30.620 --> 00:32:34.900
in good customer service. So like, you
know, having a good business, a good
458
00:32:34.900 --> 00:32:39.170
viable businesses, just your I mean you
gotta have it your entry into the game,
459
00:32:39.170 --> 00:32:44.880
right? And then once you have that,
then you start doing the mark, you
460
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:48.050
doing, you're doing marketing. It's
it's kind of the analogy I'll give is
461
00:32:48.050 --> 00:32:51.850
like it's sort of like like if I was
going to sell my house, I want to fix
462
00:32:51.850 --> 00:32:57.850
up the house first, I want to declutter
it, repair, you know, any repaint, make
463
00:32:57.850 --> 00:33:00.990
it look fresh and new, maybe re
decorate a bit. I wanted to look good
464
00:33:00.990 --> 00:33:04.420
before I start driving people to come
look at the house to buy it, you know,
465
00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:07.530
and so you want to make sure you have a
good viable business model, something
466
00:33:07.530 --> 00:33:12.290
that people want to buy that they're
interested in and that you can get
467
00:33:12.290 --> 00:33:16.580
customers consistently at a price point
where it's not gonna, you know, it's
468
00:33:16.580 --> 00:33:21.120
not going to undo you, right, so that's
that's number one, you know, you know
469
00:33:21.130 --> 00:33:25.930
you gotta have that then you can say
well who is my customer and then how do
470
00:33:25.930 --> 00:33:30.810
I become the number one brand if you
want to use that, what's the number one
471
00:33:30.810 --> 00:33:36.030
go to person for this audience on this
topic, on this product, on this service,
472
00:33:36.030 --> 00:33:40.900
on this, in this area of expertise and
to kind of wrap things up, what would
473
00:33:40.900 --> 00:33:46.360
you say are one or two things that if
you haven't started doing that level of
474
00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:51.420
marketing to build that celebrity, that
authority and that trust, what are some
475
00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:55.120
activities they can do that are like
kind of have the most bang for your
476
00:33:55.120 --> 00:33:59.570
buck kind of activities. Well I think
that again the biggest thing is
477
00:33:59.570 --> 00:34:04.990
building a list of those prospects, you
know because um all social media, if
478
00:34:04.990 --> 00:34:09.320
you're paying paid ads and retargeting
and all those things you've got again,
479
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.290
you've got to know who your customer is
and then you've got to start building
480
00:34:12.290 --> 00:34:19.050
that list, getting people to opt in to
follow two and and and and in various
481
00:34:19.050 --> 00:34:23.090
media because you know, linked in as a
different group than facebook than as
482
00:34:23.090 --> 00:34:26.969
Youtube right? And again, knowing who
your audience is and where are they?
483
00:34:26.980 --> 00:34:32.949
And then you start building the content
um and list to get people to opt in and
484
00:34:32.949 --> 00:34:38.969
want to follow you because without that
list, I mean that with in any business,
485
00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:45.030
in any business, the single biggest
asset you have is your customer list
486
00:34:45.040 --> 00:34:49.870
and the relationship you have with it
period. That's it. If you've got a
487
00:34:49.870 --> 00:34:55.590
really good quality customer list and
we'll say prospect list if you will.
488
00:34:55.600 --> 00:35:00.290
And those people they trust you, they
do business with you. If you want to
489
00:35:00.290 --> 00:35:03.720
gin up sales, you just send an email to
the list or you just do a run a
490
00:35:03.720 --> 00:35:07.090
promotion. I'll say email. But I mean
we could do it on facebook link to
491
00:35:07.090 --> 00:35:10.990
whatever. Um you run a promotion to
your list and they buy in the
492
00:35:10.990 --> 00:35:15.130
responsive. So the number one thing I
think people need to start doing is
493
00:35:15.130 --> 00:35:21.170
building that responsive list. And
again every over 20 years when I'm
494
00:35:21.170 --> 00:35:24.590
doing this, that that's the single
biggest neglected thing in most
495
00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:29.130
businesses because they don't value the
customer or the name capture, they
496
00:35:29.130 --> 00:35:32.440
don't see that as an asset. So they
don't have a list. They've been in
497
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:36.280
business for 30 years. And you say,
well, do you have a list of unconverted
498
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.280
leads and they don't have a list of,
they don't have one and or you know,
499
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:45.170
they'll, they have customers but they
haven't been tracking customers. And so
500
00:35:45.180 --> 00:35:49.150
they they're like, yeah, well we have
people who bought from us, But it was
501
00:35:49.150 --> 00:35:51.980
like, you know, they're inactive. Like
they haven't bought from us in five
502
00:35:51.980 --> 00:35:56.420
years or 10 years and what are you
doing with those people? Nothing. And
503
00:35:56.420 --> 00:36:01.230
so, you know, I think the one thing
that everybody needs to focus on is
504
00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:06.930
building a list of those sweet spot
prospects and then continually engaging
505
00:36:06.930 --> 00:36:11.230
it because you can't just build this
list and then forget about it. You know,
506
00:36:11.240 --> 00:36:16.820
your list is not a static asset. It's
not a static relationship. So you got
507
00:36:16.820 --> 00:36:20.830
to constantly be working on
relationship staying in front of them,
508
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:25.410
providing them content. They find
interesting and useful or funny that
509
00:36:25.410 --> 00:36:29.210
they're going to open your emails are
gonna watch your videos, right? You got
510
00:36:29.210 --> 00:36:35.350
to build that list and that community
because once you have that over time,
511
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:40.930
it's the single biggest asset you have
because it is, you know, again, if I
512
00:36:40.940 --> 00:36:45.100
need sales, if I want to promote a new
book, if I want to do anything, fill a
513
00:36:45.100 --> 00:36:50.550
seminar room, if I have a very
productive, healthy list, then I can
514
00:36:50.550 --> 00:36:54.730
get, I can make that stuff happen. But
if I don't have that list then I'm
515
00:36:54.730 --> 00:37:00.440
struggling paying high dollar for Cold
leads, cold traffic, trying to convert
516
00:37:00.450 --> 00:37:04.930
newbies to pay attention to follow me.
And you know, it's kind of like trying
517
00:37:04.930 --> 00:37:08.400
to lose £20 the week before your
wedding. You know, good luck, right?
518
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.680
You know, it's probably gonna involve
surgery and a lot of painful things,
519
00:37:11.690 --> 00:37:15.720
but if you take the time and you start
building this list and building the
520
00:37:15.720 --> 00:37:20.400
relationship with this this community,
if you will of people, that's the I
521
00:37:20.410 --> 00:37:24.100
can't stress that enough. That is the
number one thing. That I mean, that's
522
00:37:24.100 --> 00:37:26.980
why you want to be a thought leader. I
mean what is the thought? It's a it's a
523
00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:31.120
person that people follow and want to
pay attention to. So um you don't want
524
00:37:31.120 --> 00:37:34.830
to just post stuff out there. The whole
goal is to build this list that you own,
525
00:37:34.830 --> 00:37:38.690
that you can control. Because even if I
have that list, I can do direct mail, I
526
00:37:38.690 --> 00:37:42.640
can do telemarketing, I can upload
these and make custom audiences on
527
00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:46.250
facebook, on linked in. I can do
retargeting. I mean, there's a lot of
528
00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:50.360
stuff I can do if I have that list, but
if I don't have that list, I can't do
529
00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:54.170
any of it. And the second thing again
is it's not just building the list, but
530
00:37:54.170 --> 00:37:59.420
continually working and talking to and
communicating with it so that you're
531
00:37:59.430 --> 00:38:02.730
always relevant guys. Let me tell you,
that's a tough game to play because
532
00:38:02.730 --> 00:38:07.740
staying relevant, new and fresh where
people will follow you for a very long
533
00:38:07.740 --> 00:38:11.460
time is a tough, tough thing. I mean,
I've been doing this for 20 years and
534
00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:15.570
I'm proud to say that I have customers
that are still customers of mine that
535
00:38:15.570 --> 00:38:18.880
I've had from 20 years ago, they're
still following me, they're still opted
536
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:21.860
in there, still opening my emails,
they're still coming to events, they're
537
00:38:21.860 --> 00:38:26.630
still coming to webinars. And that's
because I have to constantly keep new
538
00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:31.670
fresh relevant information and deliver
it in a way that they always want to
539
00:38:31.670 --> 00:38:35.660
kind of stay engaged. You know, they,
they're like, they might not follow
540
00:38:35.660 --> 00:38:39.040
everything and read everything, but
they stay connected because they know
541
00:38:39.050 --> 00:38:44.100
I'm a source for good information that
they want and they need. And that's and
542
00:38:44.100 --> 00:38:47.730
that's really a big key. When you say
list, do you mean email list or do you
543
00:38:47.730 --> 00:38:52.150
mean audience on any particular
platform? No, I mean, well, I mean, it
544
00:38:52.150 --> 00:38:55.850
could be any particular platform, but
yeah, I mean, I'm talking about a
545
00:38:55.860 --> 00:39:00.390
mailing list where you have physical
address, name of company, phone number,
546
00:39:00.390 --> 00:39:05.610
email address. Believe me, there's a,
there's value in that, right? Like full
547
00:39:05.610 --> 00:39:10.170
contact profile, that, that's a list
and its own media. It's your crm,
548
00:39:10.170 --> 00:39:15.310
essentially. But at the same time,
those same people I've got on that list,
549
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:21.200
I still try to get them to follow me on
facebook and linked in. And Youtube
550
00:39:21.210 --> 00:39:26.470
subscribe to my Youtube channel. Why?
Because They might not get my email. I
551
00:39:26.470 --> 00:39:31.070
mean basically we all know email is a
dying medium and it will never go away.
552
00:39:31.070 --> 00:39:35.230
But I mean it's, I mean, you're lucky
if so, okay, you have an email list.
553
00:39:35.240 --> 00:39:41.440
You're lucky if 20% opens it. So that
means that means 80% of those people
554
00:39:41.450 --> 00:39:45.460
never saw, never open, never looked at.
So this, you might as well not have
555
00:39:45.460 --> 00:39:49.970
done anything. So that's why you want
to have multimedia. So if I have email,
556
00:39:49.970 --> 00:39:53.550
I can email them to the, I could post
the video on Youtube and my Youtube
557
00:39:53.550 --> 00:39:57.340
subscribers will see that. Then I go
over to linkedin and I posted in that
558
00:39:57.340 --> 00:40:02.000
community of my, you know, my linkedin
face, my linkedin group or you know,
559
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:06.330
posted in my feed and then I put it in
my facebook and I'm driving. So, you
560
00:40:06.330 --> 00:40:10.920
know, you want to have this multiple
community the same community obviously,
561
00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:16.670
but subscribed will say in various ways,
and and again, you got to maintain it
562
00:40:16.670 --> 00:40:20.130
because if you don't post on a regular
basis, if you don't have relevant
563
00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:23.570
information, people tune out, they got
too many other things going on there.
564
00:40:23.580 --> 00:40:27.730
Again, you're competing with netflix,
you know, you're competing with a lot
565
00:40:27.730 --> 00:40:32.230
of very interesting people who have
that, that are far more entertaining
566
00:40:32.230 --> 00:40:36.810
than me than you, you know, and so it
you've really got to fight for that. Um
567
00:40:36.820 --> 00:40:40.300
and I think people have to understand
the difficulty of the task. Well,
568
00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:44.390
that's been amazing. I agree, growing
an audience of some kind across of
569
00:40:44.390 --> 00:40:48.550
course, Omni Channel, doing it across
multiple mediums is the best. Usually
570
00:40:48.550 --> 00:40:52.070
have to start one way and kind of build
your way from one thing to a second
571
00:40:52.070 --> 00:40:55.560
thing to a third thing and kind of
start small and grow like building an
572
00:40:55.560 --> 00:40:58.590
audience. There's nothing there's
nothing that can make up for that, no
573
00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:02.870
amount of posting to Forbes or other
places in using their audience. You
574
00:41:02.870 --> 00:41:06.680
have to build your own. Exactly right.
Robin, thank you so much for joining me
575
00:41:06.680 --> 00:41:10.150
on the show today. This information has
been fantastic. Where can people go to
576
00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:14.940
learn more from you? Well, I think if
there and uh if they're an I. T. Firm,
577
00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:18.850
if they're an MSP. Var I. T. Services
company that sells outsourced I. T.
578
00:41:18.850 --> 00:41:24.160
Support the best website for you guys
would be technology marketing toolkit
579
00:41:24.160 --> 00:41:28.830
dot com. That's that's my business
that's focused just on marketing for
580
00:41:28.830 --> 00:41:33.560
MSP. S varsity service companies. So
it's technology marketing toolkit dot
581
00:41:33.560 --> 00:41:40.580
com. Now, Big Red Media is uh we are
serving mostly people who want to sell
582
00:41:40.580 --> 00:41:47.260
to and through our community of the I.
T. Providers right? So if you go you
583
00:41:47.260 --> 00:41:50.800
know big Red media. But another thing
they might find interesting is Big Red
584
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:55.520
Virtual and that is our virtual event
platform. Um that's our software as a
585
00:41:55.520 --> 00:42:00.160
service and again we we launched that
because last year in 2020 our big event
586
00:42:00.160 --> 00:42:04.580
got shut down three weeks prior to us
um going live and that's an event that
587
00:42:04.580 --> 00:42:10.410
costs us roughly about 1.5 million to
put on. And uh we triggered over a
588
00:42:10.410 --> 00:42:14.200
million dollars in refunds. It's just
because we you know we couldn't do
589
00:42:14.200 --> 00:42:19.280
anything. We did end up going virtual
with it and it was a huge home run. And
590
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:24.120
so we I really do think that virtual
events are going to be the I should say
591
00:42:24.120 --> 00:42:28.000
hybrid events because it's the in
person with a virtual component or pure
592
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:31.620
virtual event. Fantastic. Thanks again
for joining me on GDP growth.
593
00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:33.110
Mhm.
594
00:42:37.700 --> 00:42:41.440
For the longest time I was asking
people to leave a review of GDP growth
595
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:45.890
in apple podcasts but I realized that
was kind of stupid because leaving a
596
00:42:45.890 --> 00:42:51.050
review is way harder than just leaving
a simple rating. So I'm changing my
597
00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:54.770
tune a bit instead of asking you to
leave a review, I'm just gonna ask you
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00:42:54.770 --> 00:42:59.300
to go to GDP growth in apple podcasts,
scroll down until you see the ratings
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00:42:59.300 --> 00:43:03.370
and reviews section and just tap the
number of stars you want to give us no
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00:43:03.370 --> 00:43:08.680
review necessary. Super easy. And I
promise it will help us out a ton. If
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00:43:08.680 --> 00:43:12.270
you want a copy of my book, content
based networking just shoot me a text
602
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:16.840
after you leave the rating and I'll
send one your way text me at 4074 and I
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00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.120
know 33 to 8.
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00:43:21.700 --> 00:43:22.250
Okay?