You've Got PLG All Wrong, with Jason McClelland

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:16.519 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. Hey 2 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:19.960 friends, welcome into B tob growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block. 3 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:25.199 Today we're joined by Jason McClellan. He's the CMO at Algolia. Jason, 4 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:28.320 welcome to be to be growth. Thanks been you excited to be here. 5 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:33.679 So let me set up today's conversation, Jason, because you have really two 6 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:38.719 interesting case studies in PELG and product led growth, because you've come at this 7 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:42.439 from what I would say is opposite ends of the spectrum. Right. So 8 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:48.359 you have time at Adobe, which is this massive public company. Everybody's familiar 9 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:53.799 with it and you are successful and the pivot wasn't exactly, I don't know, 10 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:56.359 receive very well. We'll talk about that in a second, right, 11 00:00:56.439 --> 00:01:00.560 yeah, then you have this time at Roku, which was bought by sales 12 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:06.239 force, but it started as product led growth model from the start and it's 13 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:10.040 able to create all this buzz because of it. So we're going to walk 14 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:14.280 through both of these because I think it's just great for our audience to feel 15 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:15.799 these things out and then we'll talk about product led growth on this episode. 16 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:19.599 How does that sound to you? Awesome, I look forward to it. 17 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:23.159 Cool. All right, let's talk about adobe. First, give me the 18 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:29.719 genesis of product led growth at Adobe. When does that conversation surface? How 19 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.799 does its surface? Let's provide some context there. Yeah, I mean if 20 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:36.840 we take the way back, mischine, to I don't know, ten years 21 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:41.840 ago, something like that, what you have is you have a twenty year 22 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:46.480 old software company that makes boxes of expensive software that you know you go buy 23 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.599 through a best buycom and the problem statement we had is everybody in the world 24 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.599 knew that, Hey, I need photoshop, like photoshops, with the real 25 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.400 pros use photoshops like you know that the best tool for photographers and creatives. 26 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:01.719 You Download Photoshop, you open it up, you get this blank page. 27 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:07.000 You know like well, now what I remember that with premiere pro yeah, 28 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:08.599 I mean all the tools. I mean you know it's like Ferraris, but 29 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:10.840 you know you're not used to driving a Ferrari, which I've never driven, 30 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.520 to be clear, not used to driving Ferraris. You know, you can 31 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:16.680 take you a little to get used to. And even like the most ardent 32 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:21.719 pros or whatever, a photoshop would only use like one percent of the capabilities. 33 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:23.759 And so it was realized as a company problem that people were buying it. 34 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:25.680 You know, they're paying. At the time I was like nine hundred 35 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:28.919 bucks for the software. Now it's like five bucks a month. I think 36 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:30.479 it's still five bucks a month. People were buying this software but they weren't 37 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.080 getting the full value. For many people would come into the trial and it 38 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:37.319 would just bounce instantly because they'd launch it and like well, now would I 39 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:39.560 don't know what to do, and so like that was the initial statement. 40 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:43.199 Is like well, what if the product can actually show you what you're supposed 41 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:45.599 to do, you know, based on like are you a hobbyous photographer? 42 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:47.360 Are you professional photographer? Like, what do we think that next ride action 43 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:50.719 is for you? Yep, I got the product, kind of learned from 44 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:53.680 you and actually show you, and that began a, I don't know, 45 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:57.000 three your journey of building out the infrastructure, you know, building out the 46 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.319 team to be able to do that. HMM. So what's you say? 47 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:05.840 It takes about three years. Tell me how you guys got the timeline and 48 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:07.919 the me you start to make a shift that large, because that's no small 49 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:12.599 thing to trigger. Yeah, I mean the way we started, and we 50 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:15.319 did the same thing at Heroku. The way we started was using the marketing 51 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:19.919 systems. You already had email. Yeah, right, which is hey, 52 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:22.960 as a business owner, I've got a hypoposis what I need to show and 53 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:25.120 when. What have I send you an email on day zero or day five 54 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:29.639 or day fifteen on that that mean? The issue of the email is, 55 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:31.199 you know, we would have open rates of like five percent, ten percent, 56 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:34.639 so the message wasn't getting the people. But that was a way to 57 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.280 be able to start like running experiments like pretty quickly and just get to feel 58 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:39.319 for like are we able to move the needle, like, are these even 59 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:46.039 the correct hypothesis? The part that took long. There's multiple parts. One 60 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.560 is building the products elementary is such that you're actually capturing the data points that 61 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.000 you need. And obviously, like most products, don't move as fast as 62 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.439 anybody would like, just the nature of the beast. And so working with 63 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:59.560 your PMS and really trying to understand, like what are those key inflection points, 64 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:00.400 how we're going to capture the data, like what's the data we need 65 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:03.039 to capture to sort of prove out, like is that an inflection point, 66 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:08.280 and then building in the capability for dynamic experiences to actually show you something so 67 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.800 Benjie comes in and see something versus Jason coming in and seeing something. I 68 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:15.560 showed Benjie what I think is more relevant to him. Building that at most 69 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.759 companies is a multi year process because you have your day to day sort of 70 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:23.040 product road map. Additionally, the other never ending journey that was incredibly hard 71 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:26.959 for us was building the I mean, for simplicity I'll just called the customer 72 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.519 day to warehouse. Yeah, but it's a data model that has all that 73 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.199 telemetry. So the data model that pulls together like what was your marketing journey? 74 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:36.680 What was your product adoption journey? Ultimately it was your sales journey. 75 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.079 Then helps you understand like okay, what are the look alikes like? What 76 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:43.439 are the sort of you know, patterns that? Who are your real personas? 77 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:45.839 What are the real customer journeys? So, you know, building that 78 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:47.519 data model that helps your team get educated on like what are the millions of 79 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:50.079 people? Are Hundred of thousands or tens of thousand, whatever your numbers are 80 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:54.319 people that are using your product, like what are they actually doing? HMM. 81 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:56.720 And pretty quickly you start to see where you're spiking or wor kind of 82 00:04:56.759 --> 00:04:59.240 like the oil gushers are like oh well, you know, there's ten types 83 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.199 of customers and they go through five types of journeys and if I run a 84 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.240 test on the step one of, you know, customer a's journey, can 85 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:08.160 I move the needle? I mean that was a multi year I mean it 86 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:10.959 took, you know, two plus years to even get like the basic infrastructure 87 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.399 of it. Should be getting faster. Now there's companies like game, game 88 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:15.040 and what another try to automate this. Then, you know, a couple 89 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.040 years you can get like the data model up and then you know, years 90 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:21.439 at like a never ending journey of optimizing that, like capturing more telemetry and, 91 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:25.759 you know, sort of better understanding the insides. Hmm, tell me 92 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.839 how it was received, some of the things that you would avoid if you 93 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.079 could go back and maybe change it? Yeah, it's a good question. 94 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:39.639 The concepts were intuitively received in the company. So the idea of most products 95 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:43.279 seemed to have this blanks page problem or blank slate problem, like you uh 96 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.959 your product, you get a white, white dashboard or a welcome screen like 97 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:47.959 okay, well, now what what I do exactly? So the concept of 98 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.759 showing people the right step, the right next step, at the right time 99 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:55.920 was so intuitive that there wasn't any pushback at the concept. The push back 100 00:05:55.959 --> 00:06:00.240 at all companies I've been a part of has been more around who it's a 101 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.800 drive that user experience. Right, like is that a product activity? Is 102 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:05.319 that a sales activity? Is at a marketing activity? Is that like a 103 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:10.839 quote unquote growth team that sits somewhere in between product, sales or marketing? 104 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:13.120 You know, how do you sort of fit within the security model to make 105 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.319 sure that you're bringing in somebody like a customer I oh, or an in 106 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:17.920 game butt ioh or whatever that, you know, like it's it's built into 107 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:19.920 your product, right, and so you want to make sure that your security 108 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:23.959 team like knows and trusted. You know, the product team tends to worry 109 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:27.360 that the marketing team is going to put like flashy yellow by now buttons, 110 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:30.439 you know, on sale today on they get it while it's time, and 111 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:32.519 so, honestly, like that took a lot of the time. Is just 112 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:34.879 sort of showing people that you could do baby steps. You're going to be 113 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.720 mindful of the customer experience. You're not going to trash the product and make 114 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.079 it look like Nascar. Where did you let it sit? Like who owned 115 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:44.360 it? Yeah, it's a good question, because it was. It ended 116 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.120 up being co owned at all companies that I've been at like that, which 117 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.120 is sort of like carving out a dedicated so here's the part that I feel 118 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.680 strongly about, more so than the than your structure. Parts of the function 119 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:58.680 are marketing, the e parts of it our data sciency, and parts of 120 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:00.600 it our product key. So you need people who come from those kind of 121 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:04.240 backgrounds. But ringfencing the team, which is saying, okay, we're going 122 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.120 to create a squad of three people, by people to people, twenty people, 123 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.240 whatever the sort of level investment is, and then you say, okay, 124 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:13.839 you guys, you're not focus on the day today business. They get 125 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:15.120 out of the fired drills, get out of the you know, like you 126 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:19.680 got to ship, like product features. Your job, as is virtual team, 127 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:25.480 is iteration, experimentation, learning and if, when you're first starting at 128 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:28.879 eighty percent of your test fail for the first couple months, that's totally fine 129 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:30.600 if you're just trying to build them. Hustle of running a test and building 130 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.920 these spikes or these steel strings that go from end to end. On we 131 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:38.439 had a data insight, we had a hypothesis, we tested the hypothesis and 132 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:42.120 we had a learning it doesn't even matter if your test actually worked and let 133 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:44.560 you know, improve things. It's more like we were able to see something 134 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:47.480 from end to end and get it in execution with the idea of try to 135 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.759 get one in market, you know, in two weeks, four weeks, 136 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:54.040 and then eventually you'll get like too and market in two weeks and eventually, 137 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.199 you know, you just have this thing where you've got dozens of tests going 138 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:00.480 at any time, but that's sort of building the steel thread across teams and 139 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:03.240 that that's steel threat of being able to measure, monitor and adjust. It's 140 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:07.439 incredibly hard and so start simple, start focus and just start. I was 141 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:13.160 wondering with this sort of test squad, if you will, did you have 142 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.160 these people on your team already at Adobe? Did you hire specifically once you 143 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.000 knew that you wanted to create a special iteration squad, or how did that 144 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.879 slush itself out? You Remember? Yeah, it was both, and same 145 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:26.800 thing at Roku, same thing at all Goalia. It's both like. So 146 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:30.600 there were some people on the team who had the skill set in background. 147 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:31.679 They had the inclination, like you know, they had like the will and 148 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:35.519 desire of like this is something I'm really passionate about and every I want to 149 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:39.200 help build here. So started out with that, right, you know, 150 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.200 product people and marketing, email marketing kind of people or life cycle nurturing kind 151 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.000 of people who are like I'm really interested in the end product experience. To 152 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.279 start out with that, as we found our legs and we started hiring outside 153 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.480 experts, by the people who come from companies who are known for doing this, 154 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:54.240 and so it was a mix of, you know, sort of the 155 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:56.720 inside people who know the product, and same thing here at all Goalia is 156 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:00.399 it's a mix of people who really know the product, how the bell pursues 157 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.759 the product, but then outside people who've actually done this at scale and so 158 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:05.080 hopefull you get the synergies right, of the people who are like no, 159 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.080 I understand developers and developer life cycles and specificity of how they use our product. 160 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:11.919 And you have the outside people. Yeah, I know how to do 161 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:13.720 this to you know a million developers and hopefull you kind of get it's like 162 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.200 chocolate and peanut butter. Hopefully you get the best of both worlds. Yeah, 163 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.320 chocolate and feedinbter. That's a good I like that analogy because I also 164 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:26.080 am hungry and chocolate and peanut butters sound great. So more food and knowledge 165 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:28.840 are you might get a couple more of those. That's great. Okay, 166 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:35.120 so we have adobe as our first case study. Now let's let's go to 167 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.960 Heroku. You've mentioned a couple times, but self serve from the start, 168 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:43.080 very different story. Give me a quick compare and contrast. Yeah, so 169 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.200 the difference with Heroku from the start was it always had a premium option, 170 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.480 right, you know, sign up for your credit card, build real stuff 171 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.960 for free and once you start building more real stuff, we start charging you. 172 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:54.960 That was kind of the end of the job when I joined Roku, 173 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.960 which is like hey, we got a credit card thing. Developers lots and 174 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.840 they're just growing. But ROKU had the same problem adobe had, which is 175 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:07.080 at the time Heroku was the first aptive has right, everybody loved her rope, 176 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:09.120 I mean Massa, Guy who founded Ruby, worked for her rope, 177 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:11.879 who's we just had, you know, tremendous, you know, developer affinity. 178 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.679 You sign up for Roku, you get a blank page. Right, 179 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.799 people are like, well, I can literally build anything. I mean like 180 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:18.879 we work and Uber and stitch fix. I mean amazing companies were built on 181 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:22.159 Heroku. So you know you can build anything. But you launched the APP 182 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.600 and you're like, well, what do I do? HMM. And so 183 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.399 very similar thing is, you know, if you're a ruby developer versus a 184 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:33.840 job a developer, or if you're a hobbyous developers to professional developer. We 185 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.840 had hypothoses around what you needed to do. Right, like every developer needed 186 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.679 to connect to a get repo some sort, or most developers did, which 187 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.480 is like where's your code stored? And so, you know, day zero 188 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:46.639 make that really easy. You know, like are you get hub, are 189 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:50.840 you get lab or you something else? Team developers tended to want to add 190 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.360 people to a team. And if you're adding people to a team, then 191 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.440 you know, you tend to care about you know, Maybeci see the sort 192 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:00.519 of other things. And so on day zero it's like hey, you know, 193 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.399 are you a circle kind of person or your travis kind of person? 194 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:05.879 And I really showing you, like, I mean literally, it's like, 195 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.799 you know, ten step to developing your APP or zero to hello world, 196 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:11.519 and is running those experiences, which is like okay, if I, you 197 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.600 know, show you adding people to a team or adding a data store, 198 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.960 furst like does that drive your adoption? Is being able to build that at 199 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:24.240 scale. So very similar problem because we had the blank space, different business. 200 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:26.320 I was ahead of Adobe because adobe was, at the time, you 201 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.840 know, nine hundred dollar big box software. We just had to get people 202 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.919 to sort of activate, would be the modern term. Hiroku was cheap software, 203 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:37.360 free, you could get started. But the issue is ninety nine percent 204 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.120 of people didn't get started right because you open it, I've heard of this 205 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:41.279 thing. Now what do I do? I got to go out and like 206 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:45.440 to dig to a bunch of dogs and reference architectures and try to figure out, 207 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:46.519 like how do actually get started? Will just bring that into the product. 208 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:48.960 Too overwhelming. It's too overwhelming. So it's like, okay, I 209 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.840 guess I'll go I'll work on this later. And people wouldn't. Yeah, 210 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.600 you just keep putting it off because it's like I know I can do something 211 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:58.759 great some day, but I got to learn a lot before I actually jump 212 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:03.000 in. So I see the issue. Potentially they're okay, well, here's 213 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.559 a deal. Like when we talk product led growth, like it's in our 214 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.200 lexicon. We know it, marketers know it's baked in. I would say 215 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.519 Wall Street wants, you know, these SASS companies, to move in that 216 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:16.039 direction. You guys were you know, we've been doing this for a while 217 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.039 now, but it's not a small shift. And and you see be tob 218 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.720 SASS companies getting product led growth wrong often because you have these case studies. 219 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.240 You've been in this world, so you see them maybe not going far enough 220 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.480 right, like you would say. They go what one step in there, 221 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.879 like in the shallow and dipping their toes in. Is that right? Yeah, 222 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.480 I mean I see a lot of this and the guys over it open 223 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:41.080 view and and sorry, I need to change my lexicons. I stopped saying 224 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:45.720 guys. I California kids. I call everybody doing guys. I'm working on 225 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.200 changing that, but we all have bad habits. But the folks over at 226 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:52.000 open view put out a lot about this that. You know, product led 227 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.480 growth isn't just fremium. A lot of companies feel like, Hey, we 228 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:58.000 have a premium model, sign up on a credit card or pay as you 229 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.200 go credit card model like done. You know, we sort of like lower 230 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:03.440 the barrier to entry, that people don't have to talk to a sales team, 231 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:05.960 they get the sign up a found the credit card and that's cool. 232 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.080 I mean that's an acquisition channel and definitely something that most companies should be considering. 233 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:11.519 But yeah, that's like step one out of ten. Right. I 234 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:13.840 mean product led grow up. It's in the name, like the product. 235 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:18.720 The product isn't it's not a credit card based sales or whatever. It's called 236 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.679 product led growth, right, which is like the product. Actually should know 237 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.639 your customer, your user, and the product should show them in the right 238 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.559 place what they should do next. Right. It's always about that next right 239 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:31.600 step. There's very few companies that are doing that really well because it is 240 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.639 a multi year, you know, sort of exemence and expensive investments. It's 241 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.399 an expensive bed. When you look at the companies that are doing this well, 242 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.000 you know, the stripes and Tuilios and snowflakes, and I mean smaller 243 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:46.080 companies like launched darkly. The Go to market efficiencies are insane, and so 244 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.159 you see this all the time from the VC and Wall Street reports or whatever. 245 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.679 You know, you should have net present payback, you know, or 246 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.600 Roy sort of metrics if you go to market or that are like astronomically insane, 247 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.440 which is like your user requisition cost is very low, and I know 248 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.200 I just for how a bunch of terms, Sarah, so I may know 249 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.399 if I need to go slow or sort of revisit, but basically the financial 250 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:07.919 incentives are there and if you don't have a true product leg growth motion, 251 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.320 I see, I foresee, that it's going to be hard for companies to 252 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:15.399 compete three, five years from now financially. Hmm Right, sort of like 253 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.080 in the like to Wall Street or to VC's, where it's just like wait 254 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.279 a minute, like if I get a dollar to these other folks, you 255 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.759 know they're going to grow, you know, sixty percent, hundred percent, 256 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.279 you're on year, and they're going to have, you know, ninety percent 257 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.559 margin because customers are doing most of their own self. Served I get a 258 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.159 dollar to a traditional company, it's going to be, you know, ninety 259 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:33.440 percent. You're going to have, you know, seventy percent of your money's 260 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.440 going to like sales and marketing, just sales and marketing for acquisition. Then 261 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:39.159 you got thirty percent. You're sort of squeezing your DEV team or whatever. 262 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.600 Thirty percent. He ever building a new product that's going to be like her 263 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.240 two in future innovation. So I know I went off on a little bit 264 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.240 of a tangent there. But, yeah, you're at step zero, step 265 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.440 one. You need to start making the investment. I don't see how you 266 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.159 can sort of fit within the right frameworks of what the finance teams expect yours 267 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:01.519 from now if you don't. And I think that's a really like important point 268 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.600 to take in for a second, because right now you can sort of hide 269 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.000 behind the term like, I must imagine slapping a sticker on it that just 270 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:13.000 says like product led growth. Right, and it's okay right now, in 271 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.720 the immediate, because it's still a term that's just being thrown around and a 272 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.240 lot of companies are like one step in so they can claim the term. 273 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.600 But when it bears out, when you can actually see the efficiencies and those 274 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.039 that are doing it well versus those that are lackluster in it, you're going 275 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:30.240 to start to see Wall Street react, you're going to start to see the 276 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.279 like everyone react, right, because you've Ben you can actually bear out who's 277 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:37.639 doing this effectively versus who's just sort of slap to sticker on it. Yeah, 278 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.799 I mean you're right. Like you you've got I wouldn't say you have 279 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.679 time to start. You have time till you're uncovered, meaning that if you 280 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.759 say I slap the stick around and I've got a premium thing. You know, 281 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:50.240 you've got two, three years before it becomes real and people are like, 282 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.200 okay, wait a minute, leading indicators aren't indicating you're actually making enough 283 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:56.519 investment here. Yep, but I wouldn't use that. I wouldn't use that 284 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.279 as a delay tactic. And again, because I don't know. I've done 285 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.600 this now at three or four different companies, spending on how you count, 286 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.440 and I keep trying to find ways to do it faster. HMM, but 287 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.759 there's always something, you know, like sort of organizational disconnect or sort of 288 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:15.440 operational and maturity or I haven't run into people having doubt, but I'm sure 289 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.960 that I hear from people that exist a lot of companies, which is I 290 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.799 guess it's a real thing. It's just another like marketing term. So it's 291 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.159 a multi year process walking down that street a little bit what. Like you 292 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.759 say, you're trying to get faster each time you do it and you run 293 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:33.000 into issues each time. We'll talk timeline in a second, but what does 294 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:36.960 that look like and just dig into some of those, those road blocks in 295 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.519 a sense, that you end up end up hitting. Yeah, number one 296 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:44.840 is what I mentioned earlier. is at the high level you're like yeah, 297 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.919 this is intuitive, we should totally do this, but then you very quickly 298 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.320 run into what, who does it? And that's repetitive at every company. 299 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:53.120 It's repetitive every company. It's I guess it's a product thing. Products like 300 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:56.600 now we want to make sure that you know, our user experience is pre 301 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:59.720 see, we don't trust outside orgs. We don't trust other companies to like 302 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.839 run part of the experience, maybe because of a security issue sometimes, I 303 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:08.279 don't know. I'm speaking abroad. Stereotype product people versus marketing people. I 304 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:12.640 mean we hit some are in our stereotypes, usually product folks. Yeah, 305 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.960 they care a lot about the actual product experience, but they tend to not 306 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:18.839 be sort of go to market driven, right, which is, Hey, 307 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:22.680 I'm building a very specific thing that's supposed to monetize and I need to really 308 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.200 understand who the exact user is, and I put this inflection points and where 309 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.880 they abstract value. Like I feel like this is changing, but I feel, 310 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.079 you know, in my experience with a lot of product folks whatever, 311 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:36.960 like they're more oriented towards I'm a visionary and I want to build really cool 312 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.559 stuff, HMM, and you know somebody will buy. It's like if you 313 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:45.839 build a day will come, which just can't be true. Marketing folks right 314 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.440 can be I don't know how I'd put it, you know, cheesy, 315 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.039 I guess, at times, or were it's just like that. God help 316 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:53.720 us. We can't. We can't help ourselves from like talking marketing language and 317 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.039 stereotypically like the product teams like I don't want that in my product right, 318 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:00.640 like I don't want superl Tos or whatever all of my product, you know, 319 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.799 like the best search everywhere, the best apt of fast platform or you 320 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.440 know like the world's greatest whatever. And so building that trust and kind of 321 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.240 getting inquirity over like who's going to drive? What is accountable for what, 322 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:12.559 how the team's going to work together. So both sides were like, okay, 323 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.720 we've got the speed and Tanchtion that marketing can brain, but we've got 324 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.279 the the sort of credibility and you use your experience that the product and can 325 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:22.920 build. I haven't been able to find way to sort of like make that 326 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.799 a two week conversation instead of like a three to six month conversation. Pay 327 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:32.079 Everybody. Benjie here as a member of the sweet fish team. I wanted 328 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:36.440 to take a second and share something that makes us insanely more efficient. Our 329 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:40.319 team uses lead Iq. For those that are in sales, or you're in 330 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:44.000 sales ops, let me give you context. What once took us four hours 331 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.799 to gather contact data now just takes one. That's seventy five percent more efficient. 332 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:55.160 We are so much quicker withoutbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much 333 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.559 easier than before. I highly suggest that you check out lead Iq as well. 334 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:06.759 You can find them at lead iqcom. That's L ADIQCOM. All right, 335 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:11.079 let's jump back into the show. But we've got the the sort of 336 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.759 credibility and you use your experience that the product and can build. I haven't 337 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:17.640 been able to find way to sort of like make that a two week conversation 338 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:21.640 instead of like a three to six month conversation. HMM, because even if 339 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:25.920 you claim that you have that alignment, it's not like it's this overnight success. 340 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:33.200 It's a recurring conversation. I'm sure it's a recurring conversation and unfortunately I 341 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.359 feel like there's also a bit of a lack of trust, for lack of 342 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:41.640 a better word, between or like organizations right, like companies, want marketing, 343 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.200 but they're not always really true what marketing does, and especially if you're 344 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.559 selling developer tools, it's really easy to react and as a marketer can be 345 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.119 really hard. I mean, like most of the marketers that I've hired, 346 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.400 and I also come from a developer background, of identified people who come from 347 00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:00.880 developer or product backgrounds. Most marketers don't have that right and so they get, 348 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.440 you know, sort of API versus head list or composable versus you know 349 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.440 whatever, like mixed up, like, you know, not understanding, you 350 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.279 know, sort of code repo versus a data store. You know, it's 351 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.799 like the terms don't come out right, and so your product person, you're 352 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.880 just like, oh my gosh, these people in my product, like it's 353 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.240 going to drive a terrible experience. HMM. And so what marketing needs to 354 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:22.640 do, a well marketers need to do if they want to make traction, 355 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:26.680 is pitch this idea of small experiments to show that they can move the needle 356 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.519 and build trust right, which is like hey, give me, give me 357 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.160 an inch or whatever, this one little spot here, whatever, I think 358 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:34.559 I could help you move the needle, and I could, I could do 359 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.200 it in a way that you're like that's a that's a great product experience. 360 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.400 Like I didn't like like marketing in the door and all of a sudden it's 361 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.880 like flashing NASCAR signs all over the place. And so, but I highly 362 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.640 recommend to people who are trying to do this for the first time pick a 363 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.640 small thing, you know, sort of get clarity on like rolls responsibility. 364 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:53.359 The APIS between team. Pick that small team and to start building success. 365 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.720 But do that fast, right, and then you grow quickly once you sort 366 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.200 of have that steel thread, as opposed to like we're going to go build 367 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.279 a whole growth program and like overhall the entire product and go to market. 368 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.759 This is never going to happen. HMM. Yeah, pitch small experiments. 369 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:10.119 I like that as an easy first step, and it does. It builds 370 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:14.079 trust and you're not asking for keys to the kingdom right up top, right. 371 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:18.640 Yeah. Okay. So I asked you to sort of bring with you, 372 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.279 for lack of a better term, the strategy, the steps that maybe 373 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:27.480 we overlook more than just that step one, the freemium offering, and I'd 374 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:30.240 love for you to spend the last maybe ten minutes or so that we have 375 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:36.519 together, expanding on what you feel are those next steps beyond step one that 376 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:40.480 we need to be aware of and starting to think about, strategize and implement. 377 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:45.880 Yeah, it starts with really understanding who your customers are. I mean, 378 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:47.880 eventually, you know, when you're doing the two year, three year 379 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:49.759 investment in the data system and Blah, Blah Blah, you'll get smarter in 380 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.960 the system will tell you who their customers actually are. What I don't see 381 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:59.720 and is people who literally sit down with her customers and understand and even pre 382 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.880 pre paying customers, customers you haven't paid yet, sitting down and really understanding 383 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:04.960 the day in the life, like how do they adopt a product? What 384 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:07.720 are the problems that they're trying to solve? Where they're sticking points, like 385 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.559 what works what doesn't work for them? Because that starts you. That gives 386 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:15.200 you the ability to start to build out that framework. You know the framework 387 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.839 for. You know, do I show something on Day Zero, day fifty? 388 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.200 Is it about case of an APP dead things about CICD, or is 389 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:23.839 it about data sore setup? The only way you can really understand is, 390 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.519 I mean to sit down with the developer or sit down with the photographer or 391 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.319 sit down with it wherever your user is and really kind of under sound like 392 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:33.440 how do they get their work done? And so I would invest in that 393 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:36.839 as a product and good like whoever's on the growth team literally sit down with 394 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:38.640 dozens of customers and can go, okay, like I'm going to you're going 395 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.799 to learn something every time, right, and you just kind of, once 396 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.119 you get inside the four walls of a company, forget, you know, 397 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.759 you're like our products awesome. You just kind of forget like how not awesome 398 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:48.559 it was the very first time. You try to launch and you like and 399 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:53.200 the stuff is so not intuitive. Dad Helps you determine your strategy, right, 400 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.480 you know. Additionally, as you're building out the telemetry, the other 401 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.519 part your strategy is like where people falling out? Is it like day zero, 402 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:02.319 like hey, they sign up, they don't know what to do, 403 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.039 or is it they sign up, your products not engaging enough so they actually 404 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:08.599 followut on day fifteen or day fifty. So interview people who've bounced out while 405 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:11.920 you're building that data system and is really sort of understand like if you have 406 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:15.240 an adoption problem, you have an active use problem, you have a feature 407 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.640 discovery problem, you have a hey, I'm telling you cool stories every month 408 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:22.000 whatever to drive you back into the product. Kind of problem, which is 409 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.440 like let me show you all the other cool things you can do. You 410 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:27.000 can get that from talking to people and that helps drive the strategy, is 411 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.039 like where do I where do I focus? First, like I've been at 412 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.440 companies where it was an active use problem, right, which we get people 413 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.000 in, they activate, they think they love the product, but after three 414 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:38.440 months, nine months, they go away and we can't get them back. 415 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.759 And there's other companies that are like, you know, the photoshop thing, 416 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:42.960 which is everybody in the world knows it. Once it or at the time, 417 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.519 Heroqu ever being the world knows it, and once it they launched it. 418 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.640 I like I have no idea what the heck to do. So they 419 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.960 bounce and they never come back. So just kind of depends on your strategy. 420 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:53.480 Really depends on like what problem are you trying to solve? Hope that 421 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:59.720 helps make sense. It does. It does what you think about once you 422 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:03.480 have that information, and maybe there's a pivot that needs to happen, a 423 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:08.400 revamp. You talked about the experimentation team. Is that then in their hands 424 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:14.119 to start running small subsets of tests and and then deciding how to how to 425 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:18.079 pivot. Yeah, yeah, so what I would do is, yeah, 426 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.319 I would set up an autonomous and ring fenced experimentation team and say these are 427 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:26.079 your goals, right, like your goal is you're going to run five experiments 428 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.400 this quarter and you're just going to prove that you can learn, like that's 429 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.279 all it is. And quarter number one is, hey, say we have 430 00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:34.759 a day zero activation problem. Ignore everything else in the world, like you're 431 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.039 not in the fired drills of the rest of the company, everything else in 432 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:41.519 the world. Come back, come back in a week with, I don't 433 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.640 know, five hypothesis on what you what needs to be done or whatever to 434 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:48.200 improve activation on day zero. And then within call it, two weeks, 435 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.680 you actually have your first experiment out. And so it's like ring fence a 436 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.640 team, give them very aggressive and queer single goal and just say your goal 437 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:57.480 isn't to come back and talk about how you grew revenue twenty percent or whatever. 438 00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:02.039 Your goal is I built a s steel threat and and ran an experiment 439 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:03.680 and learn something, even if that thing is, hey, this in moving 440 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.319 needle at all. Thing number two, ish I guess I would say, 441 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.720 is have that team dotted line and like directly to the exact team. And 442 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:15.880 this worked at Adobe, worked at Roku, worked at we're doing this now 443 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.279 out of our Goalia, where it's a CEO, the chief product officer, 444 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.519 and I meet directly with the team a couple times a week. So that 445 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.359 way that also cuts through the noise right like the team is getting stuck where 446 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:26.359 they're like, well, we actually needed this guy over and finance to do 447 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:30.279 something for us and you needn't return our phone calls. If this is such 448 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:33.799 an important thing for the company, you need to have those frequent feel teeth, 449 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.640 the exact team check ins where you're ensuring that you're sort of you're knocking 450 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.400 down walls for this team, like they're not getting stuck on stupid stuff. 451 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:42.039 Whenever you're trying to do, I mean in general product like growth or not, 452 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:45.279 when if you're trying to do something new out of company, just by 453 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.440 the nature of humans, you're going to get stuck on stupid stuff, and 454 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:49.759 so you need to have like you can't just like bury in the organ be 455 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:52.559 like Hey, growth, you got to figure it out. It's going to 456 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:55.359 be important. Three Orson out of Wall Street will never work right. Like 457 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:57.079 you need to see level exacts or the VP level exacts whatever, who are 458 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:00.039 actively involved and will help them break that be a but be there for advising 459 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.880 and also help them break down walls and be like no, like we've got 460 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.880 to make real progress in two weeks or a week or whatever the timeframe is, 461 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:08.799 and so don't get stuck in the bureaucracy that even the smallest two companies 462 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.920 has. So now that you have this wealth of knowledge, you've done it 463 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:19.400 several times. You have implemented things like the dotted line between this experimental team 464 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:23.359 in the exact team. You said it's still pretty hard to speed up this 465 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:29.599 process. So what has it looked like like in your time now at Algalia? 466 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:33.200 You've been there what about a year? Yeah, so how do you 467 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.240 see it being different? How is it a better, Well oiled machine, 468 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.599 even if it still takes a while? Walk me through that. Yeah, 469 00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:44.799 so the part that I I'm amazed at the world hasn't advanced further on. 470 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.880 It's part of the reason why it's so hard is all the companies I've been 471 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:52.359 at had a reliance on hiring our own data scientists to build those data models. 472 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.039 I do hear that recurring issue. Yeah, and you would think that 473 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.319 at this point, I mean they're like machine learning has come so far, 474 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.119 I mean it's built into everything right, that you would think that in there 475 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:04.960 are companies that do this and I think it's still kind of early in the 476 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.440 journey. You would think at this point there'd be, I don't know, 477 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:11.759 ten different companies that, like, this is what they do. Is and 478 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:12.759 I know people who do this as a service. You know, it's like 479 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:17.480 a professional services kind of company, which is producties, you know, self 480 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:21.039 learning databases. You segment or whatever to sort of plug in all the bright 481 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:25.519 telemetry points and then over time, this sort of unstructured database is able to 482 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:27.559 kind of self learn and say, like and segment has forget the name of 483 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.480 the product that they want a couple of years ago. They have a product 484 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.960 that tries to do this and it's pretty cool, but it's not as it's 485 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.720 not as self sufficient as I would like it to be. So that's thing 486 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.319 number one. Is I mean you're going to go spend six to twelve months, 487 00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:41.599 whatever it is, building a data model and and you know, like 488 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.640 the like literally building the models around that that help you understand like your true 489 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.240 customer types and your true customer journeys. Like what has a correlation? We 490 00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:52.599 call them a high value action. So we have like high, medium and 491 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:55.400 low value actions. It's like what are the activities that people do that have 492 00:27:55.480 --> 00:28:00.440 high correlation to long term monetization, or medium correlation or low correlation? It's 493 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:03.319 all manually built. At the companies I've been at anyway, overly answered, 494 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:08.319 but that's like big tent pole number one is I'm surprised it's not more productized. 495 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:14.720 Tent Pole number two is company. Again, like companies like segment and 496 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:18.640 game die that I owe and others are solving this rudder stack with some other 497 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.880 ones. Getting your unstructured data, so getting that telemetry into that data model 498 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:26.480 across like everything right, like your web journey, your marketing journey or product 499 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.039 journey, your sales journeys are getting things out of sales for each of those 500 00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.119 uses different technologies. And then this is like segments, bread and butter, 501 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:37.240 for sure, but at many companies that's actually hard right, because it's like 502 00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:41.319 three or four different ops teams are all using your own different technology stack, 503 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:44.039 you know. So it's like different languages, different teams, different organization, 504 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.400 and you're like I got to get all that stuff into a data warehouse. 505 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.319 If you're at an older school kind of company, they're going to say, 506 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.599 well, we have a CRM, like I can't we use that? You're 507 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:53.839 going to go waste like a month or two months burdens you have in that 508 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:57.279 conversation of like this isn't a crm, like this is something when to building 509 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.200 a red shift or snowflake or you know. And so it's just like the 510 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.200 human nature. I mean this is going to rapidly change, I don't know, 511 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:06.359 over the next two, three years is more. People will like this 512 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.319 is the way that things are done, but while it's still new. It's 513 00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:11.480 still new right, which is people are like no, we already have a 514 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.079 database, we have a customer data basis or crm. Like what do you 515 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:15.279 need this other weird thing? What do you mean? You want to use 516 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.640 segment? I don't want to use segment. When use customer ioe or whatever 517 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.000 the thing may be, it's like that's months, easily months of conversations, 518 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:25.000 unless you have like a CEO or somebody at that level who's like, guys, 519 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:26.200 you have a week, figure it out, come back with the recommendation. 520 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.400 Yeah, do you come back with that now? Because you've experienced it 521 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.000 in you kind of yeah, that's that's where you've been able to find speed. 522 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:36.880 Yeah, I mean that's what we did at all, goalie, is 523 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:40.160 we literally have a weekly meeting now with the CEO, exactly, and the 524 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:41.680 front line. Yeah, the front line folks on the product and the the 525 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:45.160 marketing side are reporting. You know, they report out to the CEO every 526 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:48.079 week. You know I'm there in the head of products. They're literally for 527 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.200 exactly that reason. You can't avoid it, right. Yeah, you kind 528 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:53.559 avoid its human nature, right. I mean it's anovators a limit, like 529 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:56.000 there's a book rid about this like twenty years ago. All Right, why 530 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.000 would I work on your weird new experiment when this other thing makes a company 531 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:02.839 mine? Like you're weird new experiments. You ever going to get prioritized? 532 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.240 Like it's just human nature. Wow. Well, I think it's super insightful. 533 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:10.720 I wrote down several notes from our conversation here as far as next steps, 534 00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:14.920 and I'll read some of these back to you, but I love starting 535 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:18.400 with user experience. Kind of get a day in the life, go to 536 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:23.599 data signals and analyze those. Second then you have this experiment team that has 537 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:27.359 a dotted line right to the exact team, which is one of the only 538 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.839 ways this is a long process no matter what. You're in it for the 539 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:33.440 long haul, but that's one of the ways you speed up the process as 540 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.960 you give that that direct, dotted line, and then just know there's no 541 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.079 shortcuts that this at least right now. You know, we're talking about this 542 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:42.440 in early two thousand and twenty two. It's I'm looking for it to a 543 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:45.519 made. Will build if you if you know something that we don't know, 544 00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:51.359 then come talk to us, but it's this is something to know that you're 545 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:53.960 not going to do this overnight. So, Jason, with all of that 546 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:59.559 said, anything that you want to throw in here at the end? Any 547 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.759 last things we should be aware of before we wrap this conversation up? Yeah, 548 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.799 maybe before I do that. So if anybody's listening to this and they 549 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.720 found the sort of magic key, I'm on twitter and Linkedin and good hub 550 00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:12.119 and good lab and, you know, sort of reach out and like I 551 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:15.960 found the thing, man, go use this. I'm sorry, going to 552 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.599 get a million sales calls right after this too. Yeah, I think the 553 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.759 important thing is bite off small things and get started. Like the only thing, 554 00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:26.440 the only way you can figure out like what work for your company is 555 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.720 by doing you know, I mean go talk to people, go talk to 556 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.200 smart people, you know, bring that back in as like sort of expert 557 00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:33.880 outside expertise. I can help win your management team if you need that, 558 00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.680 the people who are doing real product led growth. It's still, it feels 559 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.759 like it's still a small subset when or small, small group of us. 560 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.400 I mean it feels like there's a dozen and I'm sure it's like a hundred, 561 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:47.279 but I feel like we're all really tight. I mean all the folks 562 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:48.960 over at like clear bit and Mad Kudu, and I'm not going to like 563 00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.519 drift. I can game a million of these people. Like we have like 564 00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:56.599 Meetups, we've got slack channels. You know, we talked, you meet 565 00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:57.319 up for beer, kind of things, like Hey, I'm down, like 566 00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.640 what do you see? Like what's the lightest thing you're using? It's a 567 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:05.039 really tight group and so join those groups, right. I mean it's not 568 00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:07.759 at all like an exclusive club. It's just people who are nerds, right, 569 00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:10.240 like we're all like very passionate about like I guess we're building our robot 570 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:14.400 masters, right. We're all we're all right and about that it's like can't 571 00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:15.440 be a I do my job for me, like why? Why do the 572 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.359 sales guy still have to have a stupid conversation around like what your product does? 573 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:21.839 Like the product should be able to show you and we've all been working 574 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.400 on that for a decade or two. And so it's not exclusive at all. 575 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:27.519 Like I mean, reach out to people, people. Usually people are 576 00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:30.200 really happy to talk, you know, buy them a coffee or a beer 577 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:32.279 or whatever in your end. So plug yourself one more time, Jason. 578 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:36.079 You said twitter, Linkedin or those kind of the best places to find you. 579 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:37.759 Just your name. Yeah, there are. Those are the best places 580 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.480 either. One of those is probably the best. I know I have kind 581 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:44.720 of a long name, but you know, this CMO of Algalia might be 582 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.200 quicker than Jason McClellan. Too many, too many else and season there. 583 00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:52.039 Well, well, we'll have your name in the description of this podcast, 584 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:53.720 in the show notes, and you can click over to his linkedin if you 585 00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:59.480 just check that out. But give a quick plug push for Algolia and tell 586 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.720 us a bit about what you guys are doing and then we'll wrap. Yeah, 587 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:06.759 so I'll goal is like the company that nobody's ever heard of. Second 588 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.440 biggest search service after Google. Google choses as a partner for Google Cloud, 589 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:13.839 for aft touches like one or eight people every day. You know, built 590 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.039 into gaming systems like the son and NTENDO and CNN, like media systems like 591 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:22.000 CNN NBC. It's a search and discovery API platform. So there's billions of 592 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.240 pieces of content in the world. There's billions of people. We make it 593 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:29.000 easier for developers to put those things touch. Our job as marketers and is 594 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:30.759 it get those stories out there. So we're working on that great well, 595 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:35.000 thank you so much for being on on B Tob Gross Jason. Yeah, 596 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.880 of course. Thanks again for inviting me, Benji. We're always having insightful 597 00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:44.359 conversations like this on B tob growth and we're hoping that this helps fuel your 598 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:46.960 growth, your innovation as listeners. So never miss an episode. You can 599 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:52.039 subscribe to the show wherever you're listening to this on your favorite subscription service and 600 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.720 then connect with me on Linkedin. Just Search Benjie Block and I'm always talking 601 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:58.400 about marketing, business or life over there and would love to hear from you. 602 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.960 So keep doing work that matters. Will be back real soon with another 603 00:34:00.960 --> episode.