Ensuring Product Market Fit, with Lisa Horner

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.960 I have the honor of sitting down with Lisa Horner, Senior vice president of 3 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:25.160 Marketing at at Folio today and Lisa, appreciate you joining us on B two 4 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:28.320 B growth. Thank you so much, Benji, I'm so happy to be 5 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:32.960 here. So Lisa, just to tell you and kind of catch you up 6 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:38.119 to speed, we have been conducting original research for B two B growth actually 7 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:41.719 over the past well a few years. I'm on the second round right now 8 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:45.600 of original research. But we had talked to a hundred marketers in the first 9 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:50.640 round and we asked the top metric that they're measured on right that the CEO 10 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:55.960 is checking, and uh, the overwhelming response is pipeline. So then now 11 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.719 in the second round, as I'm talking to vps of marketing, my follow 12 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.880 up question to that is, Okay, well, in your company, like 13 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.560 what is qualified pipeline? And so I know you've been at at Folio now 14 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:12.120 for over eight years and you're focused on your marketing efforts, but I want 15 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:17.040 to start posing questions at you in this interview, in this conversation by just 16 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:23.280 asking you that very question, what does qualified pipeline mean at at folio for 17 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:29.840 you, Well, it has to convert at a rate that we think is 18 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:36.799 is a solid conversion rate. I mean qualified pipeline is you can only see 19 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:42.640 it in the rear view mirror sometimes like does the pipe actually convert um? 20 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:46.599 And I think that that's the clincher there. And I know that's kind of 21 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:52.120 a lagging indicator really of like the criteria of quality, but that's the true 22 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:56.680 measure. It has to convert. Yeah, and I actually love something you 23 00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.640 said off air, and you brought up the word clincher right there, so 24 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:01.599 I it really went back and kind of quoted you here, but you said 25 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:06.280 that things like time in the pipe, that's not the real problem. The 26 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:09.879 fact that you have a high market fit in the pipe is the clincher. 27 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:15.960 So knowing you've engaged where you have high product market fit is the first mover 28 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:20.000 of the pipe. Illustrate that a little bit, like let's walk that out. 29 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:23.919 How do you think maybe some B two B organizations get that wrong or 30 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:27.080 mess that up. I mean, there's a lot of ways that you can 31 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.000 mess that up. And I'll just give you a quick scenario, right like 32 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:38.400 you can imagine in many companies, the product dev organization is building something that's 33 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:45.240 valuable for a specific market or target customer, let's just say, and marketing 34 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.240 may or may not be engaging that specific group, and sales may or may 35 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:59.240 not be targeting accounts that are within that universe of fit or where R and 36 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:06.039 D is driving innovation, and that level of go to market alignment is what 37 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:10.479 allows you to get to a very high quality pipe. And it's pretty easy 38 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:19.360 to get that off alignment, especially in larger organizations. Right Yeah, I 39 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:24.120 actually I think that's kind of why vertical SASS is having its moment, because 40 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:30.039 there's such clear product fit that it ensures quality pipeline. So you see some 41 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:34.159 of these bigger companies that like, if I was to go what brand you 42 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:37.840 have the most affinity towards? That's another original research question. I'm asking what 43 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:39.879 B two B brand do you have affinity towards? And you hear these big 44 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:44.000 companies, but when you think about it, they're having to then figure out 45 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:46.000 the verticals that they're going to go into, and they're doing all this assessment 46 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:52.360 to figure out how to niche down further because their market is so broad. 47 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:58.120 So what would you tell us? Because not everyone listening to this is going 48 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:01.159 to be in vertical sass. But if you're going like ensuring that there's some 49 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:05.639 sort of deep level of product fit, is there some ways we can be 50 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:12.360 thinking about that doing that as marketers more effectively. I mean, I think 51 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:17.800 that this is my view from being in both horizontal and vertical market place. 52 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:24.040 Right with with the tech companies. I think that even in the horizontal you 53 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:29.560 have to think about your multiple verticals that you're going to play in, right, 54 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.240 you can get at that multiple ways. You really are like tuning the 55 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:39.319 product maybe two verticals, let's say, or you're constructing a go to market 56 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:46.920 strategy that has you targeting vertical markets or like these heavy vertical or industry personas 57 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:49.800 right in a market. So I think everybody just needs to think like a 58 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:57.519 vertical B two B company so that you can ensure that the products and innovation 59 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:00.279 that you're bringing to market where you want to create value is aligned to the 60 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:02.879 go to market execution at the front of the house. That's the way I 61 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:05.560 would think about that. Yeah, this is a good way of saying it. 62 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:10.959 I wonder, like, what is a well defined I c P sound 63 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:14.319 and look like to you? If you're not working in vertical sas are this 64 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:17.120 Like, if you were just giving us an example, what's a well defined 65 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:21.399 i c P sound like it's as much as you can possibly know about your 66 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:30.600 customer where you have incredible fit in the marketplace, where you can drive customer 67 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:35.879 loyalty and retention, where you can drive customer value. And so it's your 68 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:44.040 really it's your regression analysis on your most successful customer, that one is successful 69 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.920 in their business using your technology you know, B two B tech is what 70 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:56.000 we're talking about here, and where you're successful with that customer. So it 71 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:00.480 needs to be win win, and so your business has to win by virtue 72 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:05.519 of that customer being super successful with your business. And so for me, 73 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:13.399 that's the clearest definition of i c P is when your business can be successful 74 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:20.360 by generating and retaining that customer where they're successful too. That's the way I 75 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:25.319 think about that. Okay, so I mentioned this earlier. You've been with 76 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:30.399 your organization for eight years and a lot of this is an evolution, right, 77 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:34.439 It's not you figured out product fit and it's this one time thing you 78 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:38.480 figured out and then there's no evolving. It's I mean, that's marketing. 79 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:42.360 It's a constant movement. So talk a little bit about that. What's the 80 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.560 evolution been for you and how do you make sure that you're kind of ensuring 81 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:53.439 that alignment over time. Well, I think you want multiple versions of the 82 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:57.680 definition of fit. You multiple functional groups to weigh in on that. You 83 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:01.000 want your product organization to weigh in on that, or product marketing however you 84 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.800 think about that, you need sales to weigh in on that from a win 85 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:12.120 analysis perspective or a you know, ability to convert pipeline perspective, and then 86 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.639 you need a services view of that, so can you actually retain that customer? 87 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:20.480 So you need I think you need those three go to market teams to 88 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:26.240 get to a total definition of fit. And I think that's like, I 89 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.399 mean, I wouldn't do that more than annually, really, or if there's 90 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:36.160 a major shift in innovation or you know, focus of um innovation and creating 91 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:41.360 value in a new market, etcetera, revisit it. But from an annual 92 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:46.040 perspective, you have to take data points and maybe it's qual and quant from 93 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:50.600 those three groups to get to the notion of fit. M Okay, So 94 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.800 we've talked a little bit about product fit. We talked about I c P 95 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:59.680 engagement. I feel like if you have your eyes set on getting products at 96 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:05.600 right, you have I C P engagement, then it probably tweaks the m 97 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:11.519 q L conversation where that might not be the ideal measuring stick per se for 98 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:13.680 for marketing teams. That's a lot of the conversation on LinkedIn. That's something 99 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.639 we've preach on and harp on. But what do you feel like marketing then 100 00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.439 should ultimately be measured on If it's not well, I guess could is it 101 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.240 quality pipeline over a certain percentage like you said up top? Or what are 102 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.399 we looking at? What are we tracking? Okay, I think it's complex. 103 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:37.919 That's good. Everything in marketing is right, it's complex. So I 104 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.879 think there are like these pure kind of very focused marketing outcomes that you're trying 105 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:52.879 to drive, right, So think about it like brand. Lots of businesses 106 00:08:52.879 --> 00:09:01.240 are trying to create a brand that has preference, premium, awareness, etcetera. 107 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.279 There are brand metrics and brand tracking that lots of companies need to do. 108 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:11.240 There is then net new customer acquisition. Let's say, where you have 109 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:18.240 two layers of things that marketing needs to deliver. One marketing needs to deliver 110 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:28.799 the customer acquisition funnel metrics. So these things like m quels or sourced pipeline 111 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:35.440 or whatever that those things are, those are very funnel centric metrics. Marketing 112 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:43.120 has a whole another layer of program attribution metrics that they're using that aren't necessarily 113 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:48.679 funnel metrics, right, It's another layer of looking at like what's actually working 114 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:56.080 in marketing. So take m quels for instance, if you're servicing multiple size 115 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:03.919 segments in a market, in one of your segments, m quels or inbound 116 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:09.240 demand generation might source a high percentage of that pipe and new customer acquisition. 117 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:16.399 Right in another segment, m quels maybe the lowest source of the pipeline. 118 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:22.480 And it's a whole another set of marketing mix and or like think about business 119 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:28.080 development that can be a huge piece of source of these pipe metrics. So 120 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:35.519 it's breaking apart what you're measuring and marketing and what's relevant to what measures, 121 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.879 and what's the relationship between those things. It's very it's actually complex. I 122 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.480 think if you talk to the business leaders who are thinking about customer acquisition, 123 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:50.679 a nice total company metric is sourced pipeline, but marketers are thinking about way 124 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.840 more than just that. So, Lisa, if someone is new to the 125 00:10:54.919 --> 00:11:00.600 idea of measuring marketing engagement, I know that's something you're taking time, really 126 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.440 care about looking at. Can you break that down and what that looks like? 127 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:11.399 Yep. I feel like market engagement is like a mother metric for marketing, 128 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.480 That's what I would say. So if you think about, like constructing 129 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:20.600 your go to market strategy, you have this ideal target customer or target audience 130 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:26.320 that that you must engage as a full marketing team, and you could call 131 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:30.519 that like go to market teams. You could call that like all of marketing, 132 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:35.360 business development, and sales needs to be focused on this common marketplace in 133 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:45.399 order to execute effective go to market strategies. Identifying the market by thinking about 134 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:50.720 what TAM are you in, Where do you have fit within that TAM. 135 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:56.039 Where might you have like I c P or this ideal customer profile that you're 136 00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:01.840 looking to acquire. Right, you have to be able to measure whether you're 137 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:07.559 reaching that customer. So one of the main outcomes of marketing is reach right, 138 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:13.639 that's one of the biggest things that we're doing in marketing. So the 139 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:20.639 ability to map your market into your database by all kinds of measures and means 140 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:26.519 is the key to them being able to measure engagement. So there's lots of 141 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:35.039 technology out there now that can help you to measure when you're engaged with this 142 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.440 ideal place in the marketplace that you want to you know, find your customer. 143 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:46.080 And I think like as a first mover of what marketing needs to do, 144 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:52.960 it's to say have we reached the intended audience? And so the ability 145 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.879 to measure that is an imperative for marketing in my opinion. Is there a 146 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.759 percentage you're looking to hit to say that we've reached the intended market or is 147 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:07.840 it just general like you're looking for some of those key accounts? Okay, 148 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:13.200 like in engaging there, how are you measuring if that's actually happening. Well, 149 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:18.039 I would say that for us, for instance, my goal is to 150 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.519 be had goal. We should be one percent engaged with our identified I c 151 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:28.879 P. So if we know entering a time period that these are the exact 152 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:35.159 accounts that are these very high quality, high fit accounts that we think would 153 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:39.679 get incredible value out of being our customer, we should be able to measure 154 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:48.759 have we reached them with a like on or off. It's binary. Have 155 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:50.840 we reached them, which we're spending all of our time reach them or not. 156 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:56.120 That's the first measure, right, And then like there's a quality of 157 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:01.480 reach or there's a velocity associated with are you moving them there within the funnel? 158 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:07.000 And I think that's another set of measures that you want to have. 159 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.320 But that initial like binary that I actually reach my intended audience. It's like 160 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.960 a material outcome from marketing. Now, m okay, So if someone hasn't 161 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:22.720 been thinking in that line of of marketing, where would they begin? Like 162 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:28.039 what would be your advice as we start to wrap up this conversation together to 163 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.200 someone who's going, okay, I want to ensure that that's where we are 164 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.679 spending the bulk of our time. What would you say to that person? 165 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.080 Well, I would say, you know, first, ensure you have a 166 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:45.000 nice definition of your market Two, do everything that you can do to identify 167 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:50.759 a map that marketplace into your database or CRM system. Right, you should 168 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:58.960 know the companies that you believe are your highest fit or highest potential customer targets, 169 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:01.759 are your I C P. All those things are kind of universal language. 170 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:07.679 And then choose the mechanisms that you have to measure engagement and there's lots 171 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:15.799 of things like there's quality of that too, there's like a percentage of quality 172 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.120 to that, but you could for binary engagement, there's lots of ways you 173 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.639 can measure that. Even within like your CRM system, you can measure that. 174 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:28.759 And I think given this three in the box, customer acquisition, UM, 175 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:35.720 group marketing, business development, and sales are all executing go to market 176 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:41.799 activities that you could measure. And so just choosing some measurements that you can 177 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:45.840 get at in a in a simple way is a good place to start to 178 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.120 say, like am one am I? Am I engaging them? And two 179 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:56.039 are they engaging back? And so like, I think that's the foundation to 180 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:02.039 think about. Yeah, that's excellent. Well, it's been fantastic having you 181 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:06.799 on B two B growth today. We always give time at the end Lisa 182 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:08.600 for you to tell us a little bit more about how people can stay connected 183 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:11.480 to you. And then also we would love to hear about what at folio 184 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:17.399 is up to and where they where people and listeners can follow the organization. 185 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.759 Yes, so we're at Folio. We're a software company out of Santa Barbara, 186 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:29.960 California, and our mission is to revolutionize vertical businesses through great software and 187 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.720 service. Today we spend a lot of time in the real estate marketplace and 188 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.799 we're having a lot of fun and we have, you know, super successful 189 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.919 customers that we deeply love and spend a lot of time with. And we 190 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:48.000 just got back to some in person events. We had our customer conference this 191 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.000 past quarter. So just super happy to be connecting again in real life. 192 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.759 You can always reach me on LinkedIn anytime, reach out on LinkedIn, happy 193 00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:02.600 to chat with anyone. Fantastic Well, thanks so much, Lisa, and 194 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:06.839 as we close today, thank you everyone for listening to B to be Growth. 195 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:11.079 Remember, don't just be visible, be memorable, affinity over awareness and 196 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.640 for all things B two B growth. You can go to be to be 197 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.279 Growth show dot com, connect with me over on LinkedIn. I'd love to 198 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:33.160 hear from you. Just search Benji Block. Thanks for listening. B two 199 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:36.039 B Growth is brought to you by the team at sweet Fish Media. Here 200 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.599 at sweet Fish, we produced podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in 201 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.680 the world, and we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos, LinkedIn 202 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.279 content, blog posts, and more. We're on a mission to produce every 203 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:57.759 leader's favorite show. Want more information, visit sweet fish media dot com