How To Promote Your Ideas (And Not Look Like A Narcissist), with Mitch Joel

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:20.519 Well, today I am thrilled to get to chat with Mitch Joel, who 3 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:25.679 is the founder of the six pixels Group, and Mitch, welcome into B 4 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.920 Two B growth. Hey, Benji gets to meet you. Thanks for having 5 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:34.560 me. For sure I wanna jump into something you recently put on Linkedin and 6 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:38.520 we'll discuss that in a minute, but maybe just give us a quick rundown 7 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.479 of who you are, Mitch, and some of the work that you're up 8 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:46.320 to over at the six pixels group. Yeah, sure. So my name 9 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:51.240 is Miss Joel and most people know me because in the early two thousand's I 10 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:55.679 launched, along with several business partners, a digital agency called twist image, 11 00:00:56.359 --> 00:00:59.840 and in the early two thousands I started a blogging podcast called six pixels of 12 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:03.959 operation, which really was early days of social media and watching all of that 13 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:08.359 whole web two come together. So we had a very good ride up until 14 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.680 selling the business about eight years ago W P P, and then that agency 15 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:17.840 became mirror, which is still part of the Wonderman Thompson Organization. I left 16 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:22.319 about four years ago, but from there I decided to continue what I was 17 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:26.959 primarily doing, which was creating content at six pixels dot com, my podcast, 18 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:30.760 speaking, investing, advising, and so that's what six pixels group is. 19 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:36.200 It's really just a holding company for my speaking contracts and my media work, 20 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:38.640 and I'm in the middle of a stealthy startup that I'm not talking about 21 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:42.079 yet that should be going live at some point soon. But other than that, 22 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:47.280 yeah, podcast, I write to create content and hang out with interesting 23 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:51.760 people like you. Well, we will keep our eyes peeled for this next 24 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:57.840 endeavor that you're hinting at here right. But you got a full plate, 25 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.439 a fun full plate we're excited to tap into to your brilliant mind on this 26 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:07.240 episode. Let's talk about what you published over on on Linkedin here recently, 27 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:14.639 and I'll transition us by just reading a piece of this. You say, 28 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:19.439 and this is the oversimplication of the issue, but most thought leaders who I 29 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:23.680 know like trust and respect, are spending way too much energy posting about their 30 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:30.560 winds, accolades and media appearances over or instead of what got them this attention 31 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:36.680 in the first place. Tell me what, uh spotlighted this issue for you, 32 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:38.800 Mitch, originally? What gets the wheels turning enough for you to say. 33 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.599 I need to say say a bit of what I'm thinking. I think 34 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:46.080 I've spent my life saying what I'm thinking all the time, every day, 35 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:50.199 and so it's not like this was festering like an open wound for a long 36 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:55.039 time it it was probably just in the moment. The general consensus from my 37 00:02:55.080 --> 00:03:01.080 own thinking about the leadership is what makes somebody a true thought leader, a 38 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:07.240 thinker, a speaker, of broadcaster, a podcaster, is somebody who is 39 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:14.479 consistently showing up and adding value to the audiences lives. And usually what happens 40 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:19.360 in these instances is this person has an area of expertise. And when I 41 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:23.080 said how about an area of expertise, it's quite general and I usually use 42 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:27.479 it in thinking about event organizers. Um, an event organizer will say something 43 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.719 like we need to get better more sales, we need to become and develop 44 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:35.840 better leaders, we need to understand what's coming around the corner and thinking about 45 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:39.479 the future, we need to think differently about our sales teams and we're particular 46 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:45.240 to be to be and then you start looking for people who are experts, 47 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:49.479 are thought leaders in that space. And for me, what again, being 48 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:52.599 somebody who's been in this a long time and maybe that was part of my 49 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:55.039 old man on the porch, you know, holding my fists and streaming of 50 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:01.159 the clouds. Is that I really think the best thought leaders are consistently and 51 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:06.240 constantly showing up with new thinking around that area of expertise. And I found 52 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:11.439 myself, whatever morning I wrote this piece on, going through my feeds, 53 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:15.080 whether it was facebook or Linkedin or twitter or, I. G. E. 54 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.040 or Tiktok, tiktok, a little less, I would argue, and 55 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:24.040 anybody who I've been connected to for a long time, it seems like all 56 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:28.519 they're doing is self promoting. I'm speaking at this event, I have this 57 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:32.399 program I released this book, which is obviously a best seller or the definitive 58 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:38.639 book on this topic. And as I was constantly seeing this more and more, 59 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:43.360 I decided to click on several profiles of some of these people and just 60 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:46.240 look at what are the other posts? Maybe it just happened to be a 61 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:50.160 weird moment in time where everybody is shilling versus providing value, and I realized 62 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:54.560 that, whatever you want to call it, Gary Vayner Chuck Talks About It 63 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.480 as the Jab Jab right, Hook right, do nine things and then give 64 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:00.199 them the right hook of asking them to your book, your or buying your 65 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:04.360 online course, and it felt like it was the inverse of that. And 66 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:09.240 again, I come from a background of journalism and Publishing and broadcasting prior to 67 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:13.439 their being an Internet, and I just always believe that I would rather write 68 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:18.040 the cover story and have my byline there and have people want to continually connect 69 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:23.000 with my content then be the face on the cover of the magazine. And 70 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:27.120 I think you achieved the face on the cover of the magazine by constantly writing 71 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:30.000 those cover stories. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we live in a world 72 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.920 now where that's how we covet experts. We look to see what stages they're 73 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:39.800 on, how many books they've sold, them screenshotting a positive review on Amazon 74 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.439 or ranking in some minor subcategory of an Amazon best like everyone's a best seller 75 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:46.680 and it's now you're people saying, Oh, I'm a best seller in my 76 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.199 categories. I don't know what that means, but okay, Um, and 77 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:54.000 I'm not trying to compare myself to that. I'm not saying I have any 78 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.920 level of that acumen, but it just gave me pause that if I were 79 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.160 looking to book that person for an event or looking to potentially use their services. 80 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:06.680 I couldn't really give you what their perspective is on that space, other 81 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:11.560 than they seem to be very proud of the things that they produced. MM 82 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:16.600 HMM. That's interesting, because self promotion is so easy now, like you 83 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:21.439 can just be on any platform, every platform, and once you get into 84 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:27.959 the cycle of showing up at events speaking, there's some level of following that 85 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.959 you've amassed you can default too. I'm just going to share the next thing 86 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.480 I'm I'm going to like, almost without realizing right. When's the last time 87 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:42.839 I considerably dropped some value? That maybe even is what probably is what got 88 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.879 you that following in the first place. You call it like more of a 89 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:50.800 cult of personality than domain of authority. Culture personality tends to be like what 90 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.680 happens in in. This might just be my opinion, or what I see 91 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:59.079 is like it's what happens at scale. So you hit this critical mass and 92 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.360 then there can be this departure from domain of authority. So some of us 93 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:04.519 do this on Linkedin, where we just promote our thing, but no one's 94 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:10.639 paying attention to me. If you're a thought leader, you've got some some 95 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.240 level of people that follow you. Right, those are the people you're alluding 96 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:17.720 to. Yeah, I'm thinking about it more in the construct of am I 97 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:23.959 trying to create the allure that I'm famous, important and smart, or am 98 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:30.240 I establishing it by the content I'm creating? And and if I had to 99 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:34.680 zoom out, would I know what this person's domain of authority is, or 100 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:39.279 would it just look to me like they're doing quite well professionally, which, 101 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:41.560 again, like there's nothing wrong with that. And, by the way, 102 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:45.240 if we don't talk about ourselves, nobody will. It's a noisy world out 103 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:50.639 there. So I'm in no way advocating to not self promote. I believe 104 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:56.639 there are ways to do it that are intertwined with a delivery of value, 105 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.399 because otherwise what you're essentially doing, and this comes from my marketing background, 106 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:05.680 is you're really just advertising yourself. You're not marketing yourself, you're not developing 107 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.680 a thought or an audience because of something. And then you are right that 108 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:16.160 at a certain scale it feels like everyone will pile on because everyone else is 109 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.279 connected to this person. And the question is, is this person, who 110 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.639 now will probably have a team in place, if they have a lot of 111 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.480 fame and people following them, are they continually producing what got them there, 112 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:33.360 or are they fulfilling this weird cycle of of fame and celebrity? So, 113 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.080 you know, these are questions we have to ask ourselves as brands and as 114 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:45.919 individuals. Are we trying to accruve fame or are we trying to build thoughtfulness 115 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:50.120 and a unique perspective and a reason that would differentiate you from me? So, 116 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:52.600 in particular, if you think about the B two B space, which 117 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:56.759 I know well, there's so many people who are specialists in B two B 118 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:03.200 sales techniques and I believe that in this world of there being so many, 119 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:09.799 what makes somebody unique isn't necessarily that they're saying something different, it's that they're 120 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:13.960 consistently delivering a perspective. So it doesn't have to be a unique thought, 121 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.840 it really becomes, over time, a unique voice. So your unique voice 122 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.000 in that space, because it is a it's a busy space and there's a 123 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.879 lot of people who talk about it, but ultimately, because you're constantly giving 124 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:33.679 your perspective, hopefully customers and potential customers are looking at you and thinking this 125 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:37.440 person always has something unique to say. I want to be connected to that. 126 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:39.960 Now, with that, there are many people who love the fame aspect. 127 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:43.639 They love being on the train, even if it's not them. So 128 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.240 the fact that I'm connected to so and so and they liked my post or 129 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:52.480 they followed me back can be very gratifying. I'm questioning the value of it 130 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.639 in a world where these are some really intelligent, smart people who have great 131 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.320 things to say. I wish they would say that more than let me know 132 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.840 which airport they're hanging out in. Yep, a big component of this too 133 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:11.799 to me is the thought on what we just need to keep attention so I 134 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.519 might mix in some value, but I don't know what to post to stay 135 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.440 relevant. So if I know that the world is noisy, then I'll just 136 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.320 add more noise so that I stay in the feed. And then and it 137 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.159 it's becomes cyclical rather than just going. What's the value that I can add 138 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:33.320 in my domain of expertise over time? And you can throw in some life 139 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.600 stuff. We all like that. I like seeing what those people are doing, 140 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.480 but it's that it's that ratio right and just not falling into this need 141 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:45.240 of like just because everyone else is always posting about everything doesn't mean I I 142 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:48.000 also need to do that in order to appease my audience. Yeah, look, 143 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:52.559 I'm the pop culture person. I love. I collect comic books and 144 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.799 graphic novels. I have a podcast where I interview based players and I have 145 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:03.559 no problem interjecting the unique aspects of my personality because I think they reinforce a 146 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.519 personality, meaning you're not just getting content behind the name you don't know you're 147 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:11.879 you're getting to know the person a little bit. So I think there's a 148 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:18.039 big difference between sharing life experiences and self promoting. I still think there's there's 149 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:22.200 a there's a delta between the two, but ultimately the solved for the first 150 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.799 thought you had, Benji, is very easy. You live in a world 151 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:33.039 where you're probably subscribing to minimum five to ten newsletters, probably fifty two hundred 152 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.080 or or sites or things that you do as your daily routine, and a 153 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:41.679 long time ago I fell in love with an APP called pocket, which you 154 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:45.320 can save things too, and there's save later now on almost every platform. 155 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:48.879 And again this brings me back to the early days of Josh actor and his 156 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.120 development of delicious, which then was sold to yeah, which was a big 157 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:56.440 deal back back in the early days of the web and all I do is 158 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:00.720 mostly read headlines and then I'll save them in pocket. Odds of me reading 159 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.639 the article, I'd like to say they're high. They're not that high. 160 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:09.000 But what pocket is for me is a receptacle of potential ideas. So now 161 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.759 I don't have to have unique thoughts or worry about what I'm coming up with. 162 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:15.759 All I really have to do, maybe on a daily basis, maybe 163 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.039 multiple times a day, is look at the things I've saved and say to 164 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:22.200 myself, what do I think about that topic? Again, I don't even 165 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.879 have to necessarily even read the article, but I can have a perspective on 166 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:31.720 that topic and I can tweak that to fit my vertical I can tweak that 167 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.600 to fit my my area of expertise. So, for example, I might 168 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.840 see something in the media about what a brand did during the Olympics and I 169 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:43.120 might look at that and say, well, I'm in B two B sales, 170 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.159 so what is the question there? Well, maybe I want to break 171 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:50.279 down how the sales works in terms of buying super bowl ads versus an Olympic 172 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.000 ad, and maybe talk about values or whether B Two b should have a 173 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.919 play in that. To be used. There are so many angles from one 174 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.600 headline that you can probably pull out if you're truly a thought leader, and 175 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.559 I think that that's the other aspect of it is more often than not you're 176 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.279 seeing people who are essentially faking it till they make it, which I also 177 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:15.960 don't have a huge issue with. It's something that we all will try to 178 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.080 do at the beginning. It's normal in our careers. And again, what's 179 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.039 The differentiators? I think I'd want to know I was put myself in the 180 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:28.159 brain of the event planner or a potential customer. If this person is faking 181 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.240 it till they make it, which is fine, is there a level of 182 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.039 quality? Because I don't want to diminish someone who doesn't have experience or who's 183 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.200 younger. I believe that every person who has a mentor should have a mentor 184 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.679 who's somebody who's still in college university is they're going to provide you with a 185 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.440 whole different perspective on how they use technology, what they do, etcetera, 186 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:50.840 etcetera. There are so many things that we can do that creates that create 187 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:54.240 real value, and it's back to value. What's the value I'm creating? 188 00:13:54.600 --> 00:14:00.919 So if it's constantly me being in places that are instagrammable or you walking around 189 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:05.639 with my joke on on facebook or instagram is whenever I see one of these 190 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:09.399 pictures of the person who's like semi pose with a coffee and a notebook and 191 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:11.440 the whole thing, I'm always like, who's the photographer? It's not like 192 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:15.759 a self here and listen. So did you pay someone to do like a 193 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.639 half day shoot or not to pop the bubble or be a jerk? And 194 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.759 Not at all. But again, it's the things that why are we doing 195 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.039 this? So if you're doing a multi day photo shoots, that you have 196 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:31.000 six months worth of visuals that add value to the content you're creating, whether 197 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.080 it's text, the images, audio, video, short form, long form, 198 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.399 live prerecorded great smart, smart strategy, much better than using stock photography 199 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:43.200 like I do. It's the framing of it. And again, what are 200 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.679 you bringing to it? I'm just personally getting tired of like scrolling through the 201 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:50.759 feeding going out. You're on stage, you're on stage or you know, 202 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.759 my new joke with speakers is you know I'm I'm the opening keynote at event 203 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:56.600 and you see it's like, you know, six people in chairs fifteen open 204 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.919 chairs and I'm like, it looks like a talk, doesn't look like a 205 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.519 opening Keno, but we want to use that language because it establishes something in 206 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:09.759 the brain. Versus somebody WHO's more sophisticated making a choice about it, seems 207 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:15.000 like that person's is fake and not really delivering, because in every component I 208 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.600 don't see their unique thinking around what they say is their domain of expertise. 209 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.080 Yes, okay, I could go down so many roads on this, mettre, 210 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:26.360 I love what you just said to two words pop right into my brain 211 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:31.039 as you're giving that one is obviously, and you brought up value, but 212 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:35.559 the second one was journalism, because I think what makes your perspective unique and 213 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.840 what can be a way to differentiate is to think like a journalist, which 214 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:45.279 is something you actually go on to mention. There is something about being able 215 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:50.840 to investigate and ask the right question at the right time that unlocks something both 216 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.279 in your personal content. So for anyone listening to this on the marketing side, 217 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.320 like get better at asking questions, the better you get at asking questions 218 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:06.279 and thinking your holistically, exactly like the example you gave with questions, questions. 219 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.440 Let's start with why or how no question that can be answered with the 220 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.879 s or now you don't want those questions. Yes, and that's you can 221 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:17.080 tell how curious you are depending on how closed or open your questions are. 222 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:22.440 Oftentimes uh. So I think there's something to be said about being a journalist. 223 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.120 That then actually informs how you add value, because the more questions you're 224 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:30.840 asking, you're gonna find new ways to give value to your audience. Talk 225 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:34.159 about how that's set you up for maybe some success, but thinking like a 226 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:38.240 journalist and how you would implore us to do to do that as well. 227 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:41.919 I mean it's my my natural state, it's where I started in my late 228 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.440 teens professionally. So I was had a passion for it and I always had 229 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.919 a passion for questions and I always had a passion for putting the content, 230 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:55.000 which could be an individual who you're interviewing or the subject, in the spotlight. 231 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.120 Again, not making it about me. It's about the content, and 232 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:03.519 then the content finds the audience and the audience then connects to the person who 233 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.519 created that content because they want more of it. That was the cycle that 234 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:11.640 I always saw. That doesn't, that doesn't push aside the idea that many 235 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.279 journalists have become celebrities. Absolutely, we again cult the personality. We see 236 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.039 it every day on TV, we see it every day on on Youtube, 237 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:23.359 there's no doubt. But if that, if that individual isn't really creating valuable 238 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:29.839 content, it goes away really quick. And what you see at scale is 239 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.960 even big youtubers like Mr Beasts or Preston. If your kids, you start 240 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.599 seeing this strange chase that they have after these likes and follows. And why 241 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:45.200 did that video not get pushed as hard as this one? A journalist would 242 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.839 would never think like that. A journalist knows that there's always another story tomorrow 243 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.640 and that, no matter how much I believed in this story today or the 244 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.799 development of it, or how much how long it took, and I'm sure 245 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:02.240 you've experienced this too, it is often the intent that is somewhat innocuous that 246 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.319 gets the most hits or lands. I knew you where you were going with 247 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.440 that as soon as you and it really is true. Right, if we 248 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.279 knew what would be viral, we would only create that which would be viral. 249 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.559 What you learned really quickly is that viral is a result and the result 250 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:22.599 isn't necessarily directly co related to the effort or the personal value you assigned to 251 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:26.400 it. Audiences are very peculiar, they're very unique and the most important part 252 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:30.720 is that they're very fleeting. So you might think I have a hundred thousand 253 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.000 subscribers, but you really don't. You have a hundred thousand people that have 254 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:40.240 agreed to allow you to sneak across their screen at some point. They're not 255 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:44.920 really the audience until they've fully consumed what it is you've created, and I'm 256 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.240 going to guess, like my platforms, that not everybody who's subscribed, like 257 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:52.960 their following, is consuming everything. They're floating in and out because there's a 258 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.480 lot of things and sometimes it's just time based, sometimes it's work based, 259 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:02.359 sometimes it's content based. So what you can do to make this more relevant 260 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:07.519 from my perspective is three things. One is make yourself, as the creator 261 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.759 of the content, compelling enough that, if worst came towards someone has trust 262 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.160 in you to still work through it, even if they don't like the next 263 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.839 part, which is the content. What is the topic and how does it 264 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.079 resonate with me? And then the third part is I'll call them guests, 265 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:26.680 but they could be subject matter experts, that you're interviewing or trying to cover. 266 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.640 So if I have somebody like a Tom Peters or Susan Kane on my 267 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:36.559 show, their fans will probably watch or listen to the content because they know 268 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:40.039 like and love Tom or Susan. They may not now, someone may have 269 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:44.400 never heard of Tom or Susan, but they've heard of this idea of introverts 270 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:48.839 being as relevant as extroverts and they might think, well, my kids an 271 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:52.039 introvert or I'm somewhat introverted. I always thought that I have to break out 272 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.240 of my shell, but now I'm hearing this content from this person I never 273 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:59.440 heard of, Susan Kane, who wrote this book on introverts. So then 274 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:03.960 the top, because what's drawing me in appealing to the actual guests or subject 275 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:07.079 matter expert and at the same time, if I'm doing my job well, 276 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:11.119 I'm conducting and I'm bringing that topic and that guest. So in a perfect 277 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:15.839 world you want where someone loves you as the host, they love the the 278 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.559 guest or the or the subject matter expert and they love the topic. But 279 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.279 you want to be in a place, ideally, where at least you're not 280 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.480 the factor for them leaving so then you're playing against those two right the subject 281 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:30.480 and the guest. And listen, I know as someone who's done probably more 282 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:36.119 podcasts than anyone, that you can't get every a or B list guest out 283 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.799 of the gates, but you could always find an expert that people probably never 284 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:42.519 heard of and should. And so then you're really working heavy, not on 285 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:48.079 their repertoire resume or social connections, but the fact that they really are brilliant 286 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.359 on the topic that they discuss. So these are the things that we have 287 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.480 to do as content creators to push it forward. Now I say this in 288 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.759 a world where, truthfully, someone can say, I don't agree with you, 289 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:00.880 that's a lot of work. I just want to be famous and I'll 290 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.839 do as much ridiculous things as possible to get the clicks. It's a big, 291 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:07.400 big world out there. That works too, it will work too. 292 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:12.480 Yeah, that's the thing is, if this is it's I'm with you on 293 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.680 the value side of things. We're with you as as sweet fish as B 294 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.039 two B growth, and I know that many of the listeners are on that 295 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.640 side. To where they're going. Man, there's not enough time to just 296 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:25.359 go after endless likes and and in B two B, like specifically, let's 297 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:29.319 just talk that for a second to we're not chasing vanity metrics over here. 298 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.039 I mean you can go that route for a second, but you know, 299 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.079 if you're trying to drive business results in any meaningful way, your content has 300 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:40.640 to add value to your audience or you're just we're missing it. And hopefully 301 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:45.480 we see that more broadly as well with with thought leaders and and Um outside 302 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.920 the space. But in B two B. I know this, what you're 303 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.240 saying really resonates and we'll be driven home. I think. I didn't want 304 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.680 to bring you here not to have you give us some questions we could ask. 305 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:00.680 So, if we were gonna start to wrap this thing up, what 306 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.440 I wanted to do is go Mitch, tell me before I hit published on 307 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.200 my next post, like, what are some questions I should be asking? 308 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.119 What will put us back on track, to to promoting our ideas in a 309 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:15.160 more healthy, more value centered way? Are there questions you call yourself back 310 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:22.440 to? Yeah, but they're they're questions about content. So I'll typically look 311 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.799 at a piece and say, is this more about me? Is there too 312 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:29.079 much about me in here? That's usually my first sign that I'm not gonna, 313 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.279 you know, love this. Is there a real through line here? 314 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.319 What, ultimately, do I want somebody to think when they read this? 315 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:41.000 Because we can tangent and get to the place where my personal opinion becomes someone's 316 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.240 personal opinions and the comments and they're missing the greater idea or concept. A 317 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.359 great example of that is I recently did a fairly long article about business travel, 318 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.559 whether or not it's worth it to continue to do and people kept piping 319 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:56.079 in that Oh, you know, I did this amount of legs and it 320 00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:00.160 wasn't so bad. There was just a minor delay. I realized that they're 321 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:06.400 probably reacting to the story that I tell in the article, which isn't even 322 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:11.119 about me, it's about someone else as whether or not that the whole concept 323 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.319 is true or not, whereas what I was trying to do is break down 324 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:18.759 the idea that if we are in a recession, if there are supply chain 325 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.720 issues, if oil is increasing, if plane flying or just traveling general is 326 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:26.440 much more expensive, which it is, and then, on top of that, 327 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.680 if people are canceling because there's just there's still covid believe it or not, 328 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.880 at what point let a CFO and CEO say I don't know if there's 329 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.599 a real value in this at the level of which it is, considering the 330 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:44.160 bootstrapping we have to do. So then those questions become is that idea very, 331 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.799 very clear? Is My perspective different on this in some way from what 332 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.119 might be the general thinking about it, or is it in the way, 333 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:55.839 like how is my wording on this? Is it unique or difference, something 334 00:23:55.880 --> 00:24:00.200 that might be a staple in someone's brain after and then I'm thinking about out 335 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:04.319 what can I say about this in a short, concise way in social channels 336 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:08.200 that might encourage someone to read a thousand word piece, or connected to an 337 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:12.599 hour long podcast where they may not know the guest? So those are some 338 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:15.480 of the things. And then when it comes to the actual content in general, 339 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.920 when I'm speaking to a subject matter expert, I'm not trying to throw 340 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:22.559 them for a loop. I'm not trying to get them in that sixty minutes 341 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:29.200 Gotcha. What I'm trying to do is get them to show up and show 342 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.039 their work, and I feel all too often what's generally happening is a lot 343 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:37.519 of these people are predominantly answering the same questions. So I want to know 344 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:41.839 different things about them, and that's what I pushed for. Yeah, and 345 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:47.640 this is so fun to to chat with you on this topic because, one, 346 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:51.839 I think it's valuable too. I love your journalistic style and bringing that 347 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.480 side of things. I think journalists to make fantastic marketers. I run into 348 00:24:55.960 --> 00:25:00.640 that crossover pretty often actually, people that study journalism. They went, Oh, 349 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.960 well, I don't know if it's gonna work out in that career path. 350 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.599 So here I am in marketing now. And well, yeah, marketing 351 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.640 is of you know, one of the bigger functions of marketing is the stories 352 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:14.480 we tell. And B two. You know, B two B is no 353 00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.279 different from B to C in that aspect of it is. The better stories 354 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:21.240 you tell that the more anchored they will become in people's minds. And whether 355 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:26.000 you're in a highly regulated industry or one that's very procurement driven, the ones 356 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.920 who tell the better stories, that become anchors, are the ones that get 357 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.160 to show up. Yeah, and so from a B two B perspective, 358 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:36.119 it's really important that you think about the stories. Now, what happens generally 359 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:40.720 in the industry, and I'm generalizing because there's a lot of Homogeney, this 360 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.319 will this idea of that. Well, there's a best practice or there's a 361 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.079 white paper that someone else did and we should follow that roadmap. I actually 362 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.119 think that the success we see and B two B isn't something you can map 363 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.759 out. I think more often than not when we see success, it's the 364 00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:00.279 exception of the rule and it's not something that you could map out to do, 365 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:02.359 which means, which is a good thing, by the way. It 366 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.559 just means that you can tell your own story in the unique way and find 367 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:10.880 your own path to whatever audience there is for you. Yeah. Well, 368 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.759 thank you so much for breaking this down. For those that want to go 369 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:18.920 check out the full piece and read it. How to promote your ideas and 370 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:23.039 not look like a narcissist, Mitch Joel, and you can find it over 371 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:27.119 on Linkedin. I love that title. I appreciate that. I was laughing 372 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.559 because I hadn't remembered what I called it and I was like, I guess 373 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.599 that's that works, and you can always find things at six pixels dot com 374 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.519 as well, and my stuff is there too. Fantastic. Well, that 375 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:41.720 is an easy way to connect. Connect with him on Linkedin and check out 376 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.400 the six pixels website. And Hey, if you're listening to this for the 377 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.880 first time and just checking out B two B growth. We want to say 378 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.440 thanks for for being here and we're wanting to have conversations that help fuel your 379 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.279 growth and your continued innovation new ways of thinking. So never miss an episode 380 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:02.640 by just following the podcast on your favorite podcast player. And I'd love to 381 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:07.559 connect with you too if you're wanting to chat about marketing business life. Um, 382 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.240 pretty constant on Linkedin and would love to chat with you over there. 383 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.880 Mitch. Thank you again for stopping by the PODCAST. We really appreciate this 384 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.440 conversation. Times for Benji. Grace seeing you and thanks for the conversation.